A feature, or ...?

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Jan Andersen Jan Andersen
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A feature, or ...?

I have on several occasions been annoyed by something in LO - just a
small thing, but none the less: Normally, when you apply a style, like a
header style, it sets the typeface etc, but sometimes it doesn't.

I think it happens in situations like this: I write a section of text,
apply some character formatting (eg. bold or a different font), then
decide to break the section up and insert a heading in between - and it
"doesn't work", ie the font doesn't change etc. Why is that?

Is this the way it should be, or is it a bug? If it is a feature, what
am I doing wrong?

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Cley Faye Cley Faye
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Re: A feature, or ...?

It is possible that there is some direct formatting applied to the text.

Among other things, what determine the final look of text, it first apply
the paragraph style, then the character style, then the direct formatting.
Those two can be changed independently. For example, applying the bold
attribute by hand (using the B button in the toolbars) change the direct
formatting. If you then apply a style, it will not override the direct
formatting of the text.

Usually, if using styles correctly, you shouldn't apply attributes by hand
*at all*. To check if this is the issue, you can delete direct formatting
quickly by selecting the text, and use the "Format->Delete direct
formatting" menu (or something like that; I'm not sure about the english
UI, but it's the first command in the "Format" menu).

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http://cleyfaye.net


2013/7/11 Jan Andersen <[hidden email]>

> I have on several occasions been annoyed by something in LO - just a small
> thing, but none the less: Normally, when you apply a style, like a header
> style, it sets the typeface etc, but sometimes it doesn't.
>
> I think it happens in situations like this: I write a section of text,
> apply some character formatting (eg. bold or a different font), then decide
> to break the section up and insert a heading in between - and it "doesn't
> work", ie the font doesn't change etc. Why is that?
>
> Is this the way it should be, or is it a bug? If it is a feature, what am
> I doing wrong?
>
> --
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Jan Andersen Jan Andersen
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Re: A feature, or ...?

Ah, that sounds like it could be the explanation; thank you for clearing
that up for me :-)



On 11/07/13 06:30, Gabriel Risterucci wrote:

> It is possible that there is some direct formatting applied to the text.
>
> Among other things, what determine the final look of text, it first
> apply the paragraph style, then the character style, then the direct
> formatting. Those two can be changed independently. For example,
> applying the bold attribute by hand (using the B button in the toolbars)
> change the direct formatting. If you then apply a style, it will not
> override the direct formatting of the text.
>
> Usually, if using styles correctly, you shouldn't apply attributes by
> hand *at all*. To check if this is the issue, you can delete direct
> formatting quickly by selecting the text, and use the "Format->Delete
> direct formatting" menu (or something like that; I'm not sure about the
> english UI, but it's the first command in the "Format" menu).
>
> --
> Cley Faye
> http://cleyfaye.net
>
>
> 2013/7/11 Jan Andersen <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>     I have on several occasions been annoyed by something in LO - just a
>     small thing, but none the less: Normally, when you apply a style,
>     like a header style, it sets the typeface etc, but sometimes it doesn't.
>
>     I think it happens in situations like this: I write a section of
>     text, apply some character formatting (eg. bold or a different
>     font), then decide to break the section up and insert a heading in
>     between - and it "doesn't work", ie the font doesn't change etc. Why
>     is that?
>
>     Is this the way it should be, or is it a bug? If it is a feature,
>     what am I doing wrong?
>
>     --
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>     <mailto:users%[hidden email]>
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Cuyahoga Falls Cuyahoga Falls
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Re: A feature, or ...?

Once you apply your style, you can clear any direct formatting by selecting
the text and hitting <Ctrl-M>. Everything should then snap to the
style-controlled formatting.

Virgil

-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Andersen
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:50 AM
To: libreoffice
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] A feature, or ...?

Ah, that sounds like it could be the explanation; thank you for clearing
that up for me :-)



On 11/07/13 06:30, Gabriel Risterucci wrote:

> It is possible that there is some direct formatting applied to the text.
>
> Among other things, what determine the final look of text, it first
> apply the paragraph style, then the character style, then the direct
> formatting. Those two can be changed independently. For example,
> applying the bold attribute by hand (using the B button in the toolbars)
> change the direct formatting. If you then apply a style, it will not
> override the direct formatting of the text.
>
> Usually, if using styles correctly, you shouldn't apply attributes by
> hand *at all*. To check if this is the issue, you can delete direct
> formatting quickly by selecting the text, and use the "Format->Delete
> direct formatting" menu (or something like that; I'm not sure about the
> english UI, but it's the first command in the "Format" menu).
>
> --
> Cley Faye
> http://cleyfaye.net
>
>
> 2013/7/11 Jan Andersen <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>     I have on several occasions been annoyed by something in LO - just a
>     small thing, but none the less: Normally, when you apply a style,
>     like a header style, it sets the typeface etc, but sometimes it
> doesn't.
>
>     I think it happens in situations like this: I write a section of
>     text, apply some character formatting (eg. bold or a different
>     font), then decide to break the section up and insert a heading in
>     between - and it "doesn't work", ie the font doesn't change etc. Why
>     is that?
>
>     Is this the way it should be, or is it a bug? If it is a feature,
>     what am I doing wrong?
>
>     --
>     To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>     <mailto:users%[hidden email]>
>     Problems?
>
> http://www.libreoffice.org/__get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-__unsubscribe/
>
> <http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/>
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>     <http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette>
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>     <http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/>
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>     be deleted
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>


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Pablo Dotro Pablo Dotro
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Re: A feature, or ...?

On 11/07/13 07:50, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> Once you apply your style, you can clear any direct formatting by
> selecting the text and hitting <Ctrl-M>. Everything should then snap
> to the style-controlled formatting.
>
> Virgil
I've seen a case when this not always work. If you apply some direct
formatting (i.e. bold something by hand), then apply some charactery
style, then a paragraph style (with the format you really wanted in the
first place)... what you get is a mix of applied formatting that almost
never corresponds to the style you wanted. If you clear the direct
formatting there, it does not reset completely. You have to also remove
the applied character style to get the text to respond completely to the
paragraph style.
It's annoying, but It could be considered a feature, not a bug ;-)
Cheers,

--
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[hidden email]    [hidden email]
[hidden email] Twitter: @Pablo_El_Mago
http://www.blog.elysium.com.ar


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Cley Faye Cley Faye
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Re: A feature, or ...?

2013/7/13 Pablo Dotro <[hidden email]>

> On 11/07/13 07:50, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>
>> Once you apply your style, you can clear any direct formatting by
>> selecting the text and hitting <Ctrl-M>. Everything should then snap to the
>> style-controlled formatting.
>>
>> Virgil
>>
> I've seen a case when this not always work. If you apply some direct
> formatting (i.e. bold something by hand), then apply some charactery style,
> then a paragraph style (with the format you really wanted in the first
> place)... what you get is a mix of applied formatting that almost never
> corresponds to the style you wanted. If you clear the direct formatting
> there, it does not reset completely. You have to also remove the applied
> character style to get the text to respond completely to the paragraph
> style.
> It's annoying, but It could be considered a feature, not a bug ;-)
>
>
Well, it IS a feature. The direct formatting is *only* the direct
formatting: done using the toolbar buttons, or directly by doing right
click on the text and changing paragraph/characters here. Removing direct
formatting will *not* remove paragraph styles nor character styles since
they are, well, styles, not direct formatting.

It can get confusing, but you just have to remember that there is multiple
"layers" ​​of formatting applied to the text: paragraph styles, then
character styles, then direct formatting (don't ask me where the
conditional formatting goes).

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Cuyahoga Falls Cuyahoga Falls
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Re: A feature, or ...?

I just tried it and you're right. Ctrl-M clears *direct* formatting, but
preserves any *style* based formatting, whether paragraph or character
style.

I certainly wouldn't consider that a bug; it seems to me to be the way it
was deliberately designed.

Virgil



-----Original Message-----
From: Gabriel Risterucci
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 5:33 PM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] A feature, or ...?

2013/7/13 Pablo Dotro <[hidden email]>

> On 11/07/13 07:50, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>
>> Once you apply your style, you can clear any direct formatting by
>> selecting the text and hitting <Ctrl-M>. Everything should then snap to
>> the
>> style-controlled formatting.
>>
>> Virgil
>>
> I've seen a case when this not always work. If you apply some direct
> formatting (i.e. bold something by hand), then apply some charactery
> style,
> then a paragraph style (with the format you really wanted in the first
> place)... what you get is a mix of applied formatting that almost never
> corresponds to the style you wanted. If you clear the direct formatting
> there, it does not reset completely. You have to also remove the applied
> character style to get the text to respond completely to the paragraph
> style.
> It's annoying, but It could be considered a feature, not a bug ;-)
>
>
Well, it IS a feature. The direct formatting is *only* the direct
formatting: done using the toolbar buttons, or directly by doing right
click on the text and changing paragraph/characters here. Removing direct
formatting will *not* remove paragraph styles nor character styles since
they are, well, styles, not direct formatting.

It can get confusing, but you just have to remember that there is multiple
"layers" ​​of formatting applied to the text: paragraph styles, then
character styles, then direct formatting (don't ask me where the
conditional formatting goes).

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Cuyahoga Falls Cuyahoga Falls
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Re: A feature, or ...?

In reply to this post by Cley Faye
I personally think it would be great if LO had a "lock styles" feature that
one could choose to prevent himself from making direct formatting changes
without going through styles.

As you've noticed there are several layers of formatting methods and, when
they're combined in a single document, the file confusion can be great.

Of course, I'm not at all suggesting that LO *require* all formatting to be
styles based, only that it provide the user the opportunity to select such a
feature.

Virgil

-----Original Message-----
From: Gabriel Risterucci
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 5:33 PM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] A feature, or ...?

2013/7/13 Pablo Dotro <[hidden email]>

> On 11/07/13 07:50, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>
>> Once you apply your style, you can clear any direct formatting by
>> selecting the text and hitting <Ctrl-M>. Everything should then snap to
>> the
>> style-controlled formatting.
>>
>> Virgil
>>
> I've seen a case when this not always work. If you apply some direct
> formatting (i.e. bold something by hand), then apply some charactery
> style,
> then a paragraph style (with the format you really wanted in the first
> place)... what you get is a mix of applied formatting that almost never
> corresponds to the style you wanted. If you clear the direct formatting
> there, it does not reset completely. You have to also remove the applied
> character style to get the text to respond completely to the paragraph
> style.
> It's annoying, but It could be considered a feature, not a bug ;-)
>
>
Well, it IS a feature. The direct formatting is *only* the direct
formatting: done using the toolbar buttons, or directly by doing right
click on the text and changing paragraph/characters here. Removing direct
formatting will *not* remove paragraph styles nor character styles since
they are, well, styles, not direct formatting.

It can get confusing, but you just have to remember that there is multiple
"layers" ​​of formatting applied to the text: paragraph styles, then
character styles, then direct formatting (don't ask me where the
conditional formatting goes).

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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: A feature, or ...?

I'm with you on this one Virgil.
Is there a way to show the styles in a section of text, a bit like
showing the tags in HTML. If I have a bit of text with a paragraph
style, a character style and direct formatting, how do I see what is
applied where.
Steve
On 2013-07-14 10:42, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> I personally think it would be great if LO had a "lock styles" feature
> that one could choose to prevent himself from making direct formatting
> changes without going through styles.
>
> As you've noticed there are several layers of formatting methods and,
> when they're combined in a single document, the file confusion can be
> great.
>
> Of course, I'm not at all suggesting that LO *require* all formatting
> to be styles based, only that it provide the user the opportunity to
> select such a feature.
>
> Virgil
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Gabriel Risterucci
> Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 5:33 PM
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] A feature, or ...?
>
> 2013/7/13 Pablo Dotro <[hidden email]>
>
>> On 11/07/13 07:50, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>>
>>> Once you apply your style, you can clear any direct formatting by
>>> selecting the text and hitting <Ctrl-M>. Everything should then snap
>>> to the
>>> style-controlled formatting.
>>>
>>> Virgil
>>>
>> I've seen a case when this not always work. If you apply some direct
>> formatting (i.e. bold something by hand), then apply some charactery
>> style,
>> then a paragraph style (with the format you really wanted in the first
>> place)... what you get is a mix of applied formatting that almost never
>> corresponds to the style you wanted. If you clear the direct formatting
>> there, it does not reset completely. You have to also remove the applied
>> character style to get the text to respond completely to the paragraph
>> style.
>> It's annoying, but It could be considered a feature, not a bug ;-)
>>
>>
> Well, it IS a feature. The direct formatting is *only* the direct
> formatting: done using the toolbar buttons, or directly by doing right
> click on the text and changing paragraph/characters here. Removing direct
> formatting will *not* remove paragraph styles nor character styles since
> they are, well, styles, not direct formatting.
>
> It can get confusing, but you just have to remember that there is
> multiple
> "layers" ​​of formatting applied to the text: paragraph styles, then
> character styles, then direct formatting (don't ask me where the
> conditional formatting goes).
>


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: A feature, or ...?

In reply to this post by Cuyahoga Falls
Virgil Arrington wrote (14-07-13 00:37)

> I certainly wouldn't consider that a bug; it seems to me to be the way
> it was deliberately designed.

It is :)


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pbw pbw
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Re: A feature, or ...?

It's a bug, or, if you prefer, a missing vital feature.

The problem:

If you have a document filled with paragraph formatting which has been applied directly using a paragraph style menu, any styles you define and apply as a style will be overridden by the direct formatting previously applied.  There is no way that I have found to remove it, except by a manual change using the paragraph style menu.  That fixes my problem, but passes the same problem on to the next person who wants to change the paragraph styling.

I have just had to do this.  The document was an imported Word .doc, but the principle seems to apply everywhere.

How to fix it:
Add Format menu items "Clear all paragraph/character(/list?) formatting." It doesn't actually remove all formatting, but applies a default format which clear all the problem formats and allows a style to be cleanly applied.

List formatting is such a delicate matter that I don't know whether a clear all list formatting operation would cause more trouble than it's worth.

A A
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Re: A feature, or ...?

Would "Select All" (CTRL-A), Menu->Format->Clear Direct Formatting
(CTRL-M) not work for you?

On 11/27/2013 05:45 PM, pbw wrote:

> It's a bug, or, if you prefer, a missing vital feature.
>
> The problem:
>
> If you have a document filled with paragraph formatting which has been
> applied directly using a paragraph style menu, any styles you define and
> apply as a style will be overridden by the direct formatting previously
> applied.  There is no way that I have found to remove it, except by a manual
> change using the paragraph style menu.  That fixes my problem, but passes
> the same problem on to the next person who wants to change the paragraph
> styling.
>
> I have just had to do this.  The document was an imported Word .doc, but the
> principle seems to apply everywhere.
>
> How to fix it:
> Add Format menu items "Clear all paragraph/character(/list?) formatting." It
> doesn't actually remove all formatting, but applies a default format which
> clear all the problem formats and allows a style to be cleanly applied.
>
> List formatting is such a delicate matter that I don't know whether a clear
> all list formatting operation would cause more trouble than it's worth.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-feature-or-tp4064910p4085301.html
> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>


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pbw pbw
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Re: A feature, or ...?

I don't know, because there were elements whose particular formatting I needed. But I know that that sequence on individual paragraphs does not work, for the reasons explained by others in earlier posts in this discussion.

Peter West

...he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins.

On 28 Nov 2013, at 2:07 pm, A [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Would "Select All" (CTRL-A), Menu->Format->Clear Direct Formatting
> (CTRL-M) not work for you?
>
> On 11/27/2013 05:45 PM, pbw wrote:
>
> > It's a bug, or, if you prefer, a missing vital feature.
> >
> > The problem:
> >
> > If you have a document filled with paragraph formatting which has been
> > applied directly using a paragraph style menu, any styles you define and
> > apply as a style will be overridden by the direct formatting previously
> > applied.  There is no way that I have found to remove it, except by a manual
> > change using the paragraph style menu.  That fixes my problem, but passes
> > the same problem on to the next person who wants to change the paragraph
> > styling.
> >
> > I have just had to do this.  The document was an imported Word .doc, but the
> > principle seems to apply everywhere.
> >
> > How to fix it:
> > Add Format menu items "Clear all paragraph/character(/list?) formatting." It
> > doesn't actually remove all formatting, but applies a default format which
> > clear all the problem formats and allows a style to be cleanly applied.
> >
> > List formatting is such a delicate matter that I don't know whether a clear
> > all list formatting operation would cause more trouble than it's worth.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-feature-or-tp4064910p4085301.html
> > Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
>
>
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Re: A feature, or ...?

Interesting... yours is the only post I've seen so far.


On 11/27/2013 08:29 PM, pbw wrote:

> I don't know, because there were elements whose particular formatting I needed. But I know that that sequence on individual paragraphs does not work, for the reasons explained by others in earlier posts in this discussion.
>
> Peter West
>
> ...he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins.
>
> On 28 Nov 2013, at 2:07 pm, A [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Would "Select All" (CTRL-A), Menu->Format->Clear Direct Formatting
>> (CTRL-M) not work for you?
>>
>> On 11/27/2013 05:45 PM, pbw wrote:
>>
>>> It's a bug, or, if you prefer, a missing vital feature.
>>>
>>> The problem:
>>>
>>> If you have a document filled with paragraph formatting which has been
>>> applied directly using a paragraph style menu, any styles you define and
>>> apply as a style will be overridden by the direct formatting previously
>>> applied.  There is no way that I have found to remove it, except by a manual
>>> change using the paragraph style menu.  That fixes my problem, but passes
>>> the same problem on to the next person who wants to change the paragraph
>>> styling.
>>>
>>> I have just had to do this.  The document was an imported Word .doc, but the
>>> principle seems to apply everywhere.
>>>
>>> How to fix it:
>>> Add Format menu items "Clear all paragraph/character(/list?) formatting." It
>>> doesn't actually remove all formatting, but applies a default format which
>>> clear all the problem formats and allows a style to be cleanly applied.
>>>
>>> List formatting is such a delicate matter that I don't know whether a clear
>>> all list formatting operation would cause more trouble than it's worth.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-feature-or-tp4064910p4085301.html
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>>>
>>
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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: A feature, or ...?

In reply to this post by pbw
At 17:45 27/11/2013 -0800, Peter West wrote:
>It's a bug, or, if you prefer, a missing vital feature.

It's a feature - and I don't think it's missing, in fact.

>The problem: If you have a document filled with paragraph formatting
>which has been applied directly using a paragraph style menu, any
>styles you define and apply as a style will be overridden by the
>direct formatting previously applied.  There is no way that I have
>found to remove it, except by a manual change using the paragraph
>style menu.  That fixes my problem, but passes the same problem on
>to the next person who wants to change the paragraph styling.

I fear that paragraph is somewhat confused.  There is direct
character formatting, character style formatting, paragraph
formatting, and paragraph style formatting - all different.  To
confuse things further, you can apply character formatting or
character style formatting to an entire paragraph.  If you really do
solve your problem using a new paragraph style (and I'm not clear why
you would call this a "manual change"), I think you have left your
document in an ideal state for later modification by yourself or others.

>How to fix it: Add Format menu items "Clear all
>paragraph/character(/list?) formatting." It doesn't actually remove
>all formatting, but applies a default format which clear all the
>problem formats and allows a style to be cleanly applied.

You don't need to clear any style formatting, as any modifications to
these styles or replacements by other styles will simply supersede
existing effects.  What can be a problem is any local ("direct")
character formatting which may have been applied - perhaps even
(confusingly) to complete paragraphs.  (This is the way that a
beginner will format his or her documents.)  But no-one needs to add
any menu items: what you need is already there, at Format | Default
Formatting (or right-click | Default Formatting or Ctrl+M).  If you
invoke this and then apply your new styles, everything should be hunky-dory.

>List formatting is such a delicate matter that I don't know whether
>a clear all list formatting operation would cause more trouble than it's worth.

Any proper list formatting (applied using styles) should survive the
application of Default Formatting, which is what you would want.

I trust this helps.

Brian Barker


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pbw pbw
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Re: A feature, or ...?

Here's an earlier post from Pablo Dotro:
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
On 11/07/13 07:50, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> Once you apply your style, you can clear any direct formatting by
> selecting the text and hitting <Ctrl-M>. Everything should then snap
> to the style-controlled formatting.
>
> Virgil
I've seen a case when this not always work. If you apply some direct
formatting (i.e. bold something by hand), then apply some charactery
style, then a paragraph style (with the format you really wanted in the
first place)... what you get is a mix of applied formatting that almost
never corresponds to the style you wanted. If you clear the direct
formatting there, it does not reset completely. You have to also remove
the applied character style to get the text to respond completely to the
paragraph style.
It's annoying, but It could be considered a feature, not a bug ;-)
Cheers,

--
Pablo M. Dotro
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's the case I'm talking about. I've struck it as well. I suspect it might be tied up with list style interactions, but I can't be sure. I certainly ran into it in an imported .doc converted to .odt. (Not a very complex document, with few styles and lots of "hand" formatting, spaces and newlines.)

There is, in fact, another 'clear formatting' option.

If you open the style list pull-down, and scroll t the very top, there is a "Clear formatting" option, which behaves very differently from the "Clear direct formatting ^M" option. It does seem to perform a pretty radical paragraph formatting reset. However, as I no longer have access to the intermediate forms of the file I was working on, I can't test to see whether it solves the problem.
Tom Tom
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Re: A feature, or ...?

Hi :)
For my company's newsletter i sometimes copy&paste into a text-editor
and then re-select and copy&paste from there.

Fairly recently i found i could use
Shift Ctrl v
and go to the bottom of the pop-up box that gives me to "Paste as
unformatted text" and that usually strips away all strange formatting.
 The only thing it doesn't get rid of is when people press "Enter" or
"Return" at the end of each line.  I guess going back to the
text-editor method might be an easier way of doing that.  In the GEdit
text-editor i would search for
\n

Even though it removes the odd 1 or 2 bits of formatting that you do
want to keep i tend to find it more efficient to just get rid of the
whole lot and then reapply styles (such as "Heading 3") and then maybe
open the styles pop-up to edit that style.

I used to pick little bits&bobs to unformat or chunks or maybe whole
paragraphs but it involves much more faffing around than so doing the
whole lot in one go and then sorting the headings and stuff.  It might
take a little while before you find the best work-flow for you.

Regards from
Tom :)




On 28 November 2013 13:25, pbw <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here's an earlier post from Pablo Dotro:
> vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
> On 11/07/13 07:50, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> Once you apply your style, you can clear any direct formatting by
>> selecting the text and hitting <Ctrl-M>. Everything should then snap
>> to the style-controlled formatting.
>>
>> Virgil
> I've seen a case when this not always work. If you apply some direct
> formatting (i.e. bold something by hand), then apply some charactery
> style, then a paragraph style (with the format you really wanted in the
> first place)... what you get is a mix of applied formatting that almost
> never corresponds to the style you wanted. If you clear the direct
> formatting there, it does not reset completely. You have to also remove
> the applied character style to get the text to respond completely to the
> paragraph style.
> It's annoying, but It could be considered a feature, not a bug ;-)
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Pablo M. Dotro
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> That's the case I'm talking about. I've struck it as well. I suspect it
> might be tied up with list style interactions, but I can't be sure. I
> certainly ran into it in an imported .doc converted to .odt. (Not a very
> complex document, with few styles and lots of "hand" formatting, spaces and
> newlines.)
>
> There is, in fact, another 'clear formatting' option.
>
> If you open the style list pull-down, and scroll t the very top, there is a
> "Clear formatting" option, which behaves very differently from the "Clear
> direct formatting ^M" option. It does seem to perform a pretty radical
> paragraph formatting reset. However, as I no longer have access to the
> intermediate forms of the file I was working on, I can't test to see whether
> it solves the problem.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-feature-or-tp4064910p4085369.html
> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: A feature, or ...?

In reply to this post by pbw
At 05:25 28/11/2013 -0800, Peter West wrote:

>Here's an earlier post from Pablo Dotro:
>>If you apply some direct formatting (i.e. bold something by hand),
>>then apply some charactery style, then a paragraph style (with the
>>format you really wanted in the first place)... what you get is a
>>mix of applied formatting that almost never corresponds to the
>>style you wanted. If you clear the direct formatting there, it does
>>not reset completely. You have to also remove the applied character
>>style to get the text to respond completely to the paragraph style.
>>It's annoying, but It could be considered a feature, not a bug ;-)
>
>That's the case I'm talking about. I've struck it as well. I suspect
>it might be tied up with list style interactions, but I can't be
>sure. I certainly ran into it in an imported .doc converted to .odt.
>(Not a very complex document, with few styles and lots of "hand"
>formatting, spaces and newlines.)
>
>There is, in fact, another 'clear formatting' option. If you open
>the style list pull-down, and scroll to the very top, there is a
>"Clear formatting" option, which behaves very differently from the
>"Clear direct formatting ^M" option. It does seem to perform a
>pretty radical paragraph formatting reset. However, as I no longer
>have access to the intermediate forms of the file I was working on,
>I can't test to see whether it solves the problem.

I still don't understand why you consider any of this a
difficulty.  If you have a mixture of direct formatting along with
character and paragraph styles, you may well wish to remove some
parts of it, but not all.  So it's useful to have more than one
facility.  Surely you would expect to need to remove the different
parts of applied formatting separately - and delight that you were
able to do so selectively.

As far as I can see:

o Format | Default Formatting removes both direct formatting (to
characters or paragraphs) and formatting by character styles.

o The Apply Style drop-down applies paragraph styles, so you'd expect
"Clear formatting" there to reset the paragraph style to Default -
and it does.  But it also does the same as Format | Default Formatting as well.

I suspect that at least part of the problem here is that it is
sometimes difficult to see - especially with an inherited document -
exactly how formatting has been applied and consequently how it might
be removed.

I trust this helps.

Brian Barker


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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: A feature, or ...?

In reply to this post by Tom
At 15:34 28/11/2013 +0000, Tom Davies wrote:
>The only thing it doesn't get rid of is when people press "Enter" or
>"Return" at the end of each line.

There is a workaround for that, too: select the text and go to Format
| AutoCorrect > | Apply.  Amongst other reformatting, this combines
single line paragraphs if their length is sufficient.  Since it makes
other changes, you may wish to do this before performing other
editing.  Alternatively, you can use Format | AutoCorrect > | Apply
and Edit Changes, which makes the same changes but allows you to
accept them or reject them.  You could accept all the "Combine
paragraphs" changes (sort by Comment and select multiple actions to
make this easier) and reject all the rest.  This technique also
applies Text Body paragraph style, but it is a simple task to change
this afterwards if required.

For this technique to work, you need to have ticked Tools |
AutoCorrect Options... | Options | Combine single line paragraphs if
length greater than nn%.  You may need to modify the percentage -
which you can do by selecting the option and clicking the Edit... button.

I trust this helps.

Brian Barker


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A A
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Re: A feature, or ...?

In reply to this post by Brian Barker

On 11/28/2013 10:44 AM, Brian Barker wrote:

>
> As far as I can see:
>
> o Format | Default Formatting removes both direct formatting (to
> characters or paragraphs) and formatting by character styles.
> o The Apply Style drop-down applies paragraph styles, so you'd expect
> "Clear formatting" there to reset the paragraph style to Default - and
> it does.  But it also does the same as Format | Default Formatting as
> well.
>
For me at least, there's just too much to remember.  (You're in a maze
of twisty little passages.  You're in a twisty maze of little passages.  
Now you're in a twisty little passage with a maze.)  It's enough to make
me lose my mind.  I can't keep track of all these various intracacies.  
It sure would be nice to have some tool tips.

Also, if "Apply Style" applies paragraph styles and only paragraph
styles, why not have it say "Apply Paragraph Style" so as to make it
obvious and avoid the obscurity.

"Default Formatting" could either have a tool tip, or perhaps broken up
into separate functions that do one thing each.
i.e. 1) Remove formatting to characters.
2) Remove formatting to paragraphs.
3) Remove formatting by character styles.

That would provide more control.  I don't know if there's an advantage
to it - other than knowing precisely what function is being performed.

In addition, I do NOT expect "Clear formatting" to reset the paragraph
style to default.  I expect it to do 1,2,3 above.  i.e. Clear the
formatting just as it implies.  I would expect "Reset Paragraph Style to
Default" to reset the paragraph style to default.  There's far too much
guesswork and intimate knowledge required here.  It's all quite
NON-obvious.  Sure, if one works with it all the time one can learn
these things - but I shouldn't have to be an expert - it should be
intuitive and if it's not intuitive it should be spelled out in a tool tip.

> I suspect that at least part of the problem here is that it is
> sometimes difficult to see - especially with an inherited document -
> exactly how formatting has been applied and consequently how it might
> be removed.
>
Oh yes and that hits the nail on the head.  Now that the problem has
been defined, the solution becomes easy.  Provide a way to SEE exactly
how the formatting has been applied - and a quick link shortcut to
removing it!  Formatting/styles are - in my mind - similar to field
codes.  They're hidden formulas and such that could be turned on and off
for viewing at will.

Just my opinions of course.


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