A new old branding?

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anonymous anonymous
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Re: A new old branding?

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: A new old branding?

We either need a vote by the tdf members or a décision by the design team.

We also need to make sure that whatever we choose will be integrated for the release.

Best,

Charles.


SteveBell <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>Great news. So now that we have a deadline for contributions, what will
>the
>decision making process look like?
>
>
>
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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: A new old branding?

In reply to this post by anonymous
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 9:18 PM, SteveBell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Great news. So now that we have a deadline for contributions, what will the
> decision making process look like?
>

We'll make the decision on our weekly IRC chat (hence the firm deadline)
after careful deliberation.

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klaus-jürgen weghorn ol klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
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Re: A new old branding?

Hi Mirek, all,
Am 16.01.2013 12:45, schrieb Mirek M.:
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 9:18 PM, SteveBell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Great news. So now that we have a deadline for contributions, what will the
>> decision making process look like?
>>
>
> We'll make the decision on our weekly IRC chat (hence the firm deadline)
> after careful deliberation.

I don't think that this is a good decision in spirit of community.
Even not about a new branding of our programme.
I'm e.g. not able to follow the IRC chat so you expel me (and maybe some
more) from this decision.

A decision by voting of community, by BoD (our officials) or by the
members of TDF will be ok.



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Daniel A. Rodriguez Daniel A. Rodriguez
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Re: A new old branding?

In reply to this post by Alexander Wilms
> I just got the confirmation by Andy that he relicenses his artwork as
LGPL v3/MPL

the source file is available for download and play around?

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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Re: A new old branding?

Yes, here it is:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/3/3a/AndyFitzsimon_ArtworkProposal_libre-office.svg


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mirek2 mirek2
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Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Re: A new old branding?

In reply to this post by klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
Hi Klaus,

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 1:49 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Mirek, all,
> Am 16.01.2013 12:45, schrieb Mirek M.:
>
>  On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 9:18 PM, SteveBell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Great news. So now that we have a deadline for contributions, what will
>>> the
>>> decision making process look like?
>>>
>>>
>> We'll make the decision on our weekly IRC chat (hence the firm deadline)
>> after careful deliberation.
>>
>
> I don't think that this is a good decision in spirit of community.
> Even not about a new branding of our programme.
> I'm e.g. not able to follow the IRC chat so you expel me (and maybe some
> more) from this decision.


> A decision by voting of community, by BoD (our officials) or by the
> members of TDF will be ok.


Well, we've prolongued the submission time enough so that there's little
time left for a vote. That said, I'll talk about it with the regular
contributors and perhaps do a quick poll.

The problem with the last poll (and we gave plenty of time for that vote)
was that:
a) Only the splash screen of the winning submission was done. That meant
Astron had to volunteer his time and design the rest.
b) There was no way to downvote. A number of people complained about the
brightness of the winning splash. Fortunately, Astron had the wisdom to
tone it down (and use our actual branding colors in the process).
c) It was purely taste-based, without considering anything else (like the
additional work required afterwards).
d) It was on Google+ only, so it wasn't community-friendly. (Though, of
course, everyone was free to post their votes and comments to the mailing
list. That wasn't advertised, though.)

This time, it seems that, again, mostly splashes have been proposed, so
it's likely that additional effort required. That means that, ultimately,
the decision should rest with the people who can be counted on to do that
work on time and in shippable quality. Those tend to be the regular IRC
chat attendees, though if they don't attend, they'll be e-mailed. They'll
also be responsible for getting a license statement and having the new
branding included in LibreOffice.

However, that doesn't mean that the community won't be involved. We'll ask
for feedback and encourage people to use the mailing list, though a social
network comment will suffice as well. (This way, it'll be more open than
the last branding vote, as that was Google+ only.)
The final decision will take every one of those comments into account --
we'll do our best to remain objective. And even after that decision is
made, we'll ask for approval from the community.

P.S. The IRC chat schedule is adjustable, especially given that there are
basically only 3 or 4 regular attendees. If you'd like to attend, post the
times you're available. Or, if you'd like, I could create another Doodle
poll for the chat (the old one expired).

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anonymous anonymous
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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Re: A new old branding?

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Re: A new old branding?

In reply to this post by mirek2
mirek2 wrote
This time, it seems that, again, mostly splashes have been proposed, so
it's likely that additional effort required. That means that, ultimately,
the decision should rest with the people who can be counted on to do that
work on time and in shippable quality. Those tend to be the regular IRC
chat attendees, though if they don't attend, they'll be e-mailed. They'll
also be responsible for getting a license statement and having the new
branding included in LibreOffice.
It should have been specified in the Summary that a full set was required :)

I hope that people who contributed before the previous deadline (Jan 12) and are not aware of this extension are not penalized for having a splash screen only.

I just did a splash screen because I think it doesn't make sense to add the version number (4) to the About box or the Welcome\Start Center window. Opinions?
mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Re: A new old branding?

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Pedro <[hidden email]> wrote:

> mirek2 wrote
> > This time, it seems that, again, mostly splashes have been proposed, so
> > it's likely that additional effort required. That means that, ultimately,
> > the decision should rest with the people who can be counted on to do that
> > work on time and in shippable quality. Those tend to be the regular IRC
> > chat attendees, though if they don't attend, they'll be e-mailed. They'll
> > also be responsible for getting a license statement and having the new
> > branding included in LibreOffice.
>
> It should have been specified in the Summary that a full set was required
> :)
>

It's not required, but it is a factor in our decisions. That's why it's
listed under "Scope".
If a proposal is good enough, though, I'm sure one of us will take the time
to make a version for the Start Center and the About dialog.

>
> I hope that people who contributed before the previous deadline (Jan 12)
> and
> are not aware of this extension are not penalized for having a splash
> screen
> only.
>

It's not a major deciding factor.

>
> I just did a splash screen because I think it doesn't make sense to add the
> version number (4) to the About box or the Welcome\Start Center window.
> Opinions?



The rebranding is about more than changing the version number.

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Re: A new old branding?

In reply to this post by anonymous
On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 6:07 PM, SteveBell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This process is all but trivial. And mirek2 is doing a great job at trying
> to
> make everybodys voice heard and not letting anybody in the dark.
>

:) thanks

>
> Which IRC meetup are we talking about? 26.th Jan 17h german time (GMT +1).
> Is that right? If so, we should post that on G+ with a link to a webchat
> based option to join the chat without having to deal with IRC clients.
> Analogue to http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/irc-help/ e.g.
>

Yes, but I'd like to discuss the process on the upcoming IRC chat (Jan. 19)
before making a formal post.

>
> Once that is setup it should be included in
> * a post on the social media sites (G+ / Facebook / Diaspora) (mirek if you
> drop me some info, I'm happy to forward info on diaspora. I tried to setup
> an RSS feed for the G+ page in my RSS reader but I'm not sure if that is
> working).

* at the top of the wiki

> * at the top of nabble
>
> Best,
> steve
>
> P.S.: I'm still very confused by this mailing lists. I'm reading all this
> on
> nabble and only receive a single message here and there via mail. Very
> strange.
>

You probably subscribed using the no-mail option. If so, then the e-mails
you're receiving are ones sent to your personal e-mail as well as to the
design mailing list (like this one, as I don't use Nabble and I'm using
"Reply to All").
If you'd like to receive all the mailing list posts by e-mail, subscribe
again by sending a mail to  [hidden email] .
(If you do, you'll be able to post to the list by sending an e-mail to
[hidden email] and won't have to use Nabble anymore.)

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Fwd: Re: A new old branding?

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi Mirek et al

Le 2013-01-16 14:26, Mirek M. a écrit :

If the voting process gets a little too complicated with groups, perhaps
you could set it up as it is now being done with the voting for next
year's conference (it is done with voting "tokens". We did this for the
first conference and it worked well. I am not sure who is in charge of
that vote, but you can send a quick email to
[hidden email] to whoever is in charge.

The conference vote is being done with the membership. Perhaps an idea
is for the design team regulars to pick one or two or ... designs that
they approve and the membership finish off. That way the design team has
pre-qualified the designs and the membership would not have to be
briefed on all of the background-technical requirements that led to the
choices.

Looking forward to the design finals.

Cheers,

Marc



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parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
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klaus-jürgen weghorn ol klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Re: A new old branding?

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi Mirek, all,
Am 16.01.2013 20:26, schrieb Mirek M.:

> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Pedro <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> mirek2 wrote
>>> This time, it seems that, again, mostly splashes have been proposed, so
>>> it's likely that additional effort required. That means that, ultimately,
>>> the decision should rest with the people who can be counted on to do that
>>> work on time and in shippable quality. Those tend to be the regular IRC
>>> chat attendees, though if they don't attend, they'll be e-mailed. They'll
>>> also be responsible for getting a license statement and having the new
>>> branding included in LibreOffice.
>>
>> It should have been specified in the Summary that a full set was required
>> :)
>>
>
> It's not required, but it is a factor in our decisions. That's why it's
> listed under "Scope".

Should we put a persona to "scope" too? Because it is a new feature for
4.0 and we should show the new branding with a persona.


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k-j

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Re: A new old branding?

Hi Klaus,

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 10:23 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Mirek, all,
> Am 16.01.2013 20:26, schrieb Mirek M.:
>
>  On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Pedro <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  mirek2 wrote
>>>
>>>> This time, it seems that, again, mostly splashes have been proposed, so
>>>> it's likely that additional effort required. That means that,
>>>> ultimately,
>>>> the decision should rest with the people who can be counted on to do
>>>> that
>>>> work on time and in shippable quality. Those tend to be the regular IRC
>>>> chat attendees, though if they don't attend, they'll be e-mailed.
>>>> They'll
>>>> also be responsible for getting a license statement and having the new
>>>> branding included in LibreOffice.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It should have been specified in the Summary that a full set was required
>>> :)
>>>
>>>
>> It's not required, but it is a factor in our decisions. That's why it's
>> listed under "Scope".
>>
>
> Should we put a persona to "scope" too? Because it is a new feature for
> 4.0 and we should show the new branding with a persona.


LibreOffice prides itself on feeling native on a variety of platforms, and
it'd be good to keep it that way. The personas are just for people who
aren't satisfied with the default look.
With Firefox, it's the same thing. The default look is meant to resemble a
native application, while personas have a niche audience.

So, speaking for myself, I'd say no. But I'll raise the subject on the IRC
chat.

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Stefan Knorr Stefan Knorr
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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Re: A new old branding?

Hi Mirek, all,

sorry for the OT stuff here... this is just re: personas.

On Thu, 2013-01-17 at 23:22 +0100, Mirek M. wrote:
> With Firefox, it's the same thing. The default look is meant to resemble a
> native application, while personas have a niche audience.

Well, we do have a bit of a problem here, as LibreOffice doesn't contain
a browser... The clever thing that Mozilla does to promote its personas
feature is to occasionally put links to the personas page on the
about:start homepage and the Firefox first-start page. This is how
people are usually informed of the existence of the feature. The fact
that you can try a persona on without even clicking on it also really
helps avoid people having to think too hard about it.

In LibO, personas are exclusively available through an options panel.
Since most people haven't ever looked at LibO's options, they of course
won't see the feature. *being devil's advocate* One could try shipping a
default persona. The only problem with that approach is that it won't
help at all with making the feature discoverable to the casual users [1]
that might perhaps most appreciate it (since those people still won't
look at the Options dialogue).

What we risk by bundling a persona by default, though, is that people
will be blocked in their work by having to look for some less annoying
as a background/turning the personas feature off. Or even switching to
something else to do their office work, I guess.
If we do bundle one, I would suggest, we go with something greyish again
– under no circumstances should we introduce green/logos etc.


Astron.


[1] Not really sure if that's the intended audience – but to me it seems
so, as "power users" would probably rather alter behaviour by installing
extensions than doing fancy things with their toolbar background. I
realise, I could be totally wrong here, though.


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Jean-Francois Nifenecker Jean-Francois Nifenecker
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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Re: A new old branding?

Hi Astron,

Le 20/01/2013 02:02, Stefan Knorr a écrit :
>
> sorry for the OT stuff here... this is just re: personas.
> [...]
>
> [1] Not really sure if that's the intended audience – but to me it seems
> so, as "power users" would probably rather alter behaviour by installing
> extensions than doing fancy things with their toolbar background. I
> realise, I could be totally wrong here, though.
>

I also think that power users won't give a damn about that persona
thingy and that the others won't even know it exists and if they do,
won't use it either.

Since the idea has been introduced, I stood silent because, well, this
is a thing of these days and I first fell rather ol'timer.

Still, my questions are these: do we *need* that functionality? What
does it brings WRT software use? Wouldn't the devs be better employed
fixing bugs rather than developing one more (useless?) functionality
which would in turn bring more bugs? *Who* would use the personas apart
from marketers?

BTW, I don't know anyone around me using Firefox and personas.

I don't want to rain on the party but my POV is that TDF shouldn't go
that route at this moment because the usage/cost ratio seems very low to me.
--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Re: A new old branding?

In reply to this post by Stefan Knorr
Hi Astron,

On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 2:02 AM, Stefan Knorr <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi Mirek, all,
>
> sorry for the OT stuff here... this is just re: personas.
>
> In LibO, personas are exclusively available through an options panel.
> Since most people haven't ever looked at LibO's options, they of course
> won't see the feature. *being devil's advocate* One could try shipping a
> default persona. The only problem with that approach is that it won't
> help at all with making the feature discoverable to the casual users [1]
> that might perhaps most appreciate it (since those people still won't
> look at the Options dialogue).
>

If we show a gray persona by default, people will assume we just changed
the default look, not that there is a Persona feature hiding somewhere in
Options.
For example, if you used Lotus Symphony, the immediate thought isn't, "Oh,
that's a non-native look, they must be using personas". It's "Oh, the
default look is blue." (And in the case of Lotus Symphony and basically
every other software that isn't Firefox, it really is that way.)
Or, when we shipped the new Windows look, I doubt anyone thought we were
using a persona then.
Shipping with a persona won't make the feature apparent or discoverable.

>
> What we risk by bundling a persona by default, though, is that people
> will be blocked in their work by having to look for some less annoying
> as a background/turning the personas feature off. Or even switching to
> something else to do their office work, I guess.
>

I think the majority of people will just complain about it, but not do
anything, because most people just don't tend to waste their time
customizing. (Especially if the feature is buried under our awful "Options"
dialog, plus we do have an additional "Customize" dialog that one might
think to be equally appropriate for the feature.)

It also goes against the ethos of shipping with the most friendly defaults
possible.

(Frankly, I still fail to see the benefits of the feature. A minority of
the personas look good, almost all of them detract attention from the
document, and most make our menus and icons harder to distinguish.)

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Fwd: Re: A new old branding?

In reply to this post by Jean-Francois Nifenecker
Le 2013-01-20 02:53, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a écrit :

> Hi Astron,
>
> Le 20/01/2013 02:02, Stefan Knorr a écrit :
>>
>> sorry for the OT stuff here... this is just re: personas.
>> [...]
>>
>> [1] Not really sure if that's the intended audience – but to me it seems
>> so, as "power users" would probably rather alter behaviour by installing
>> extensions than doing fancy things with their toolbar background. I
>> realise, I could be totally wrong here, though.
>>
>
> I also think that power users won't give a damn about that persona
> thingy and that the others won't even know it exists and if they do,
> won't use it either.
>
> Since the idea has been introduced, I stood silent because, well, this
> is a thing of these days and I first fell rather ol'timer.
>
> Still, my questions are these: do we *need* that functionality? What
> does it brings WRT software use? Wouldn't the devs be better employed
> fixing bugs rather than developing one more (useless?) functionality
> which would in turn bring more bugs? *Who* would use the personas apart
> from marketers?
>
> BTW, I don't know anyone around me using Firefox and personas.
>
> I don't want to rain on the party but my POV is that TDF shouldn't go
> that route at this moment because the usage/cost ratio seems very low to
> me.

Strange, where I teach, and where personas are available, my 240 kids in
French classes ALL tailor their versions of FF and Chrome to what they
want, they also exchange between each other information about the looks
and feel of their software including their desktop looks and wallpapers.

I agree with you that with professional people personas may take a back
seat to functionality, but to the other larger group who use our
software and the younger set, functionality includes the look and feel
of their software as if defines them ... no matter how shallow a
function you may think it is.

A Lada may get us from point A to B ... but most people would prefer to
get a hot looking car than a square box with 4 wheels to cart them around.

Software functionality does include the look and feel otherwise we would
not be adding any color to our brand and just go for black and white and
save on toner cartridge cost ... and hey ... let's all just get B/W
monitors.

I don't know, but I also don't want to rain on your party either, by my
POV is that the TDF should go this route as it adds to the popularity as
well as gives us a larger usage base for our community product.

This is a good functionality to add to the product.

Cheers,

Marc


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Marc Paré
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parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
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Adolfo Jayme Barrientos Adolfo Jayme Barrientos
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Re: Fwd: Re: A new old branding?

On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I agree with you that with professional people personas may take a back seat
> to functionality, but to the other larger group who use our software and the
> younger set, functionality includes the look and feel of their software as
> if defines them ... no matter how shallow a function you may think it is.

+1000000000000000

Obviously Design doesn’t care, but there are people who like Personas
—as do I—, this is a huge selling point for LibreOffice, and we’re
finally not looking like Win95 (as perceived by the trolls our product
attracts).

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Adolfo

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Paul Greindl Paul Greindl
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Re: Fwd: Re: A new old branding?

In reply to this post by marcpare4
You have a good point there Marc! And I can confirm that many people
around me (at school) do in fact use personas in all the applications
which have it, which means mostly FF and chrome. But it seems to be very
popular.

regards

Paul


On 20/01/13 15:02, Marc Paré wrote:

> Le 2013-01-20 02:53, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a écrit :
>> Hi Astron,
>>
>> Le 20/01/2013 02:02, Stefan Knorr a écrit :
>>>
>>> sorry for the OT stuff here... this is just re: personas.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> [1] Not really sure if that's the intended audience – but to me it
>>> seems
>>> so, as "power users" would probably rather alter behaviour by
>>> installing
>>> extensions than doing fancy things with their toolbar background. I
>>> realise, I could be totally wrong here, though.
>>>
>>
>> I also think that power users won't give a damn about that persona
>> thingy and that the others won't even know it exists and if they do,
>> won't use it either.
>>
>> Since the idea has been introduced, I stood silent because, well, this
>> is a thing of these days and I first fell rather ol'timer.
>>
>> Still, my questions are these: do we *need* that functionality? What
>> does it brings WRT software use? Wouldn't the devs be better employed
>> fixing bugs rather than developing one more (useless?) functionality
>> which would in turn bring more bugs? *Who* would use the personas apart
>> from marketers?
>>
>> BTW, I don't know anyone around me using Firefox and personas.
>>
>> I don't want to rain on the party but my POV is that TDF shouldn't go
>> that route at this moment because the usage/cost ratio seems very low to
>> me.
>
> Strange, where I teach, and where personas are available, my 240 kids
> in French classes ALL tailor their versions of FF and Chrome to what
> they want, they also exchange between each other information about the
> looks and feel of their software including their desktop looks and
> wallpapers.
>
> I agree with you that with professional people personas may take a
> back seat to functionality, but to the other larger group who use our
> software and the younger set, functionality includes the look and feel
> of their software as if defines them ... no matter how shallow a
> function you may think it is.
>
> A Lada may get us from point A to B ... but most people would prefer
> to get a hot looking car than a square box with 4 wheels to cart them
> around.
>
> Software functionality does include the look and feel otherwise we
> would not be adding any color to our brand and just go for black and
> white and save on toner cartridge cost ... and hey ... let's all just
> get B/W monitors.
>
> I don't know, but I also don't want to rain on your party either, by
> my POV is that the TDF should go this route as it adds to the
> popularity as well as gives us a larger usage base for our community
> product.
>
> This is a good functionality to add to the product.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
>
>


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