[ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

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Petr Mladek Petr Mladek
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[ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

Hi,

there have been created the libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag for 3.4.0-beta4 release.
The corresponding official builds will be available by the end of the week.

See the attached list of changes against 3.4.0-beta3.

You might switch your current 3-4 source tree to it using:

./g fetch --tags
./g checkout -b tag-libreoffice-3.3.99.4 libreoffice-3.3.99.4

Note that the build repo is not tagged. We would like to get rid of it.

See also the schedule at http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan#3.4.0_release


Best Regards,
Petr

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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

Hi Petr, *,

Petr Mladek schrieb:

>Hi,

>there have been created the libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag for 3.4.0-beta4
> release. The corresponding official builds will be available by the
> end of the week.

>See the attached list of changes against 3.4.0-beta3.

So if I see it right
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36437

didn't go in??

That's very sad, as it is already fixed.

[..]

Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36437
>
> didn't go in??
>
> That's very sad, as it is already fixed.
>
Version was planned as rc initially, where the fix would not be
useful. Sometimes not all constraints can be satisfied - and the bug
you quote is there since last September, and only recently reported.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

I'm not sure I understand this:  does this mean that RC releases are not considered temporary builds and will be allowed to replace the previous stable build?

Will Beta4 overwrite my stable 3.3.2?
Andras Timar Andras Timar
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

2011/5/4 plino <[hidden email]>:
> I'm not sure I understand this:  does this mean that RC releases are not
> considered temporary builds and will be allowed to replace the previous
> stable build?

Yes.

>
> Will Beta4 overwrite my stable 3.3.2?
>

Yes.
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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

Le 04/05/11 07:26, Andras Timar a écrit :

>>
>> Will Beta4 overwrite my stable 3.3.2?


Which quite frankly, is a very uncomfortable situation.

Alex

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Tor Lillqvist Tor Lillqvist
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Pedro
> I'm not sure I understand this:  does this mean that RC releases are not
> considered temporary builds and will be allowed to replace the previous
> stable build?

Yes, that is more or less the definition of "release candidate", isn't it? Please remember that it in principle isn't known in advance which release candidate is good enough to be declared a release. The last release candidate is *exactly* the same as the stable release, the downloadable file names, and/or directories, are just renamed.

If the release candidates still were considered "temporary builds" (your words) and thus effectively a totally different product, with different setting locations and whatnot, how could then a release candidate magically turn into a release?

(Note that "release" does not mean "free from bugs".)

> Will Beta4 overwrite my stable 3.3.2?

3.4(.0) beta 4 will, yes. Because it was too late now to start using the ooo-dev (or whatever we should call it) mechanism for 3.4(.0) beta4, the last beta of it. As have been seen on this list, we who build the generic LibreOffice builds had no idea about this mechanism. And nobody bothered to tell us (at least is a way that we would have understood) before some weeks ago.

But if the ooo-dev thingie works, then for 3.4.1 and later (and maybe 3.3.3, too) we can use it for their betas, sure.

--tml


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Pedro Pedro
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

Hi Tor

Thank you for your clear answers!

Yes, that is more or less the definition of "release candidate", isn't it? Please remember that it in principle isn't known in advance which release candidate is good enough to be declared a release. The last release candidate is *exactly* the same as the stable release, the downloadable file names, and/or directories, are just renamed.

If the release candidates still were considered "temporary builds" (your words) and thus effectively a totally different product, with different setting locations and whatnot, how could then a release candidate magically turn into a release?


I see your point. It does make sense that at some point all is moved to the final folders. This means that developers and whoever makes the decision to move from Beta to RC must take this into account and be able to create an extra Beta build if a last minute stopper bug is found.


3.4(.0) beta 4 will, yes. Because it was too late now to start using the ooo-dev (or whatever we should call it) mechanism for 3.4(.0) beta4, the last beta of it. As have been seen on this list, we who build the generic LibreOffice builds had no idea about this mechanism. And nobody bothered to tell us (at least is a way that we would have understood) before some weeks ago.

But if the ooo-dev thingie works, then for 3.4.1 and later (and maybe 3.3.3, too) we can use it for their betas, sure.


Those are excellent news for the future. But this is a good example of a situation where the project admins should have been able to override the schedule. Having more people testing the Betas can only be a good thing for the project, right? ;)

I'm aware that a Release doesn't have to be bug-free (is there any bug-free program? :) ) but since LibreOffice is trying to get momento over OOo it should make damn sure that AT LEAST it doesn't have more bugs than the "competition" ;)

Cheers,
Pedro
Christian Lohmaier-2 Christian Lohmaier-2
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Tor Lillqvist
Hi *,

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Tor Lillqvist <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [...]
>> Will Beta4 overwrite my stable 3.3.2?
>
> 3.4(.0) beta 4 will, yes.

Well, that is still to be questioned - as there are other packaging
bugs that have not been resolved yet.
So it will conflict with an installed 3.3.2 - on linux you'll have to
manually remove 3.3.2 first, as installing it as an update is not
possible.

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36551

ciao
Christian
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Michael Meeks Michael Meeks
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Pedro
Hi Plino,

On Wed, 2011-05-04 at 01:29 -0700, plino wrote:
> Those are excellent news for the future. But this is a good example of
> a situation where the project admins should have been able to override
> the schedule. Having more people testing the Betas can only be a good
> thing for the project, right? ;)

        The problem is; once we start overriding the schedule routinely, we
slip endlessly, and no-one cares to fix bugs in a hurry because - well,
lets just slip the schedule instead :-) Also, the decision to when, how,
and by how much to slip the schedule is some particularly poisonous
problem.

> I'm aware that a Release doesn't have to be bug-free (is there any
> bug-free program? :) ) but since LibreOffice is trying to get momento
> over OOo it should make damn sure that AT LEAST it doesn't have more
> bugs than the "competition" ;)

        Our first release: 3.4.0 is planned to be as buggy as the developers
let it be: ie. all bugs not fixed by the time we release will be seen
live :-) if any are serious - then we can release note them of
course ;-)

        Naturally, our 3.4.1 release will be better, and by 3.4.2 we will
exceed the quality of any existing release from anyone (at least, that
is the plan), by 3.4.3 we'll be in some fantastic zone of stability and
so it goes.

        This was the plan with 3.3.x - and (so far), it seems to be working
rather well; I think it will be the plan for 3.5.x too.

        ATB,

                Michael.

--
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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Thorsten Behrens
Hi Thorsten, *,

Thorsten Behrens schrieb:
> Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
>> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36437

>> didn't go in??

>> That's very sad, as it is already fixed.

> Version was planned as rc initially, where the fix would not be
> useful.

Agreed, same assumption from my side. But where was the decision to
release one more beta made public? I couldn't find any hint in this
list, so no chance to step in - not for me, not for most of the 10 more
people of cc-list.

> Sometimes not all constraints can be satisfied - and the bug
> you quote is there since last September, and only recently reported.

Fix was committed saturday last week:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36437#c11

and was not pushed to 3.4 tree because Andras expected no more beta.

If I look at
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2011-April/011243.html

==============
affected Distros (at least)
* Mandriva 2010.2
* Debian Lenny
* Ubuntu 10.4
* Ubuntu 10.10
* Fedora 14
* Fedora 15
* Puppy (not sure what version, wasn't mentioned)
==============

I really wonder why within this user group - I'm one of them - the
defect could stay undiscovered. Those users have a high rate of
technical experienced ones - apparently they don't think of doing tests
for whatever reason.

I personally wait(ed) for the fix of this bug as for me testing is - as
hacking for hackers - fun stuff :o)) Braking my installation while
testing is no fun. Parallel using with no chance to go back without pain
in case of failure is no fun. So testing at all: no fun.

As our QA is very "basic", we should use every chance of involving more
eyes looking, which especially this bugfix will enable.

So simply: more fun while testing, more testing, less undiscovered Bugs.

For me it looks like the above bug could have been integrated without
too much trouble, if only it was on the radar of someone involved. This
was only a matter of poking. No chance to do so for people who cared.

But maybe all my esimation fails.


Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
Hi Michael,

Michael Meeks wrote (04-05-11 19:11)

> The problem is; once we start overriding the schedule routinely, we

Yes, but I did not see anyone ask for a routine in this.
More that people are looking for solutions, or partial relief, in this
new situation, with quite hectic circumstances.

> slip endlessly, and no-one cares to fix bugs in a hurry because - well,
> lets just slip the schedule instead :-) Also, the decision to when, how,
> and by how much to slip the schedule is some particularly poisonous
> problem.
>
>> I'm aware that a Release doesn't have to be bug-free (is there any
>> bug-free program? :) ) but since LibreOffice is trying to get momento
>> over OOo it should make damn sure that AT LEAST it doesn't have more
>> bugs than the "competition" ;)
>
> Our first release: 3.4.0 is planned to be as buggy as the developers
> let it be: ie. all bugs not fixed by the time we release will be seen
> live :-) if any are serious - then we can release note them of
> course ;-)
>
> Naturally, our 3.4.1 release will be better, and by 3.4.2 we will
> exceed the quality of any existing release from anyone (at least, that
> is the plan), by 3.4.3 we'll be in some fantastic zone of stability and
> so it goes.
>
> This was the plan with 3.3.x - and (so far), it seems to be working
> rather well; I think it will be the plan for 3.5.x too.

Does not sound too mad. But basically I see QA and consultancy people
struggling with the situation, how to handle, help, communicate.

So IMO especially the mentioned unfortunate bugs we had last weeks, that
were (are) really severe stand in the ways for all those helpers, can be
seen as an important reason for the concerns, questions, and so on,
recently.

Cheers,
Cor

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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Friedrich Strohmaier
Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
> For me it looks like the above bug could have been integrated without
> too much trouble, if only it was on the radar of someone involved. This
> was only a matter of poking. No chance to do so for people who cared.
>
Hi Friedrich,

while I agree in general, I don't think it provides much value to
further gripe about the missing parallel installability here. Sorry
still, if that fact was disappointing to you.

Let's rather look forward, since there's always a next release -
when the tinderboxen start providing master nightlies, those will
have this feature included.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

When you do a code freeze for a Beta (or any) release it means that a branch is created and to that branch only fixes are added but not new features, correct?

Are the fixes to the Beta branch incorporated to the main code (trunk?)? I.e. the "trunk" contains all the fixes from the Beta branch plus new features (which probably have other bugs), right?
Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

plino wrote:
> When you do a code freeze for a Beta (or any) release it means that a branch
> is created and to that branch only fixes are added but not new features,
> correct?
>
> Are the fixes to the Beta branch incorporated to the main code (trunk?)?
> I.e. the "trunk" contains all the fixes from the Beta branch plus new
> features (which probably have other bugs), right?
>
Yep,
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development#Hack_and_commit_on_a_stable_branch
has the details - the libreoffice-3-4 branch is regularly merged
back to master.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Jan Holesovsky Jan Holesovsky
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Pedro
Hi Plino,

plino píše v Čt 05. 05. 2011 v 01:13 -0700:

> When you do a code freeze for a Beta (or any) release it means that a branch
> is created and to that branch only fixes are added but not new features,
> correct?

Yes, no features to the release branch.  The only exception is when a
feature patch is approved by 2 more developers with different
affiliation (so that one company cannot push its favorite feature &
break the release for everyone).

> Are the fixes to the Beta branch incorporated to the main code (trunk?)?
> I.e. the "trunk" contains all the fixes from the Beta branch plus new
> features (which probably have other bugs), right?

Yes, we merge the branches to master from time to time, but no fixed
schedule for that; so there might be a time span when something is fixed
in libreoffice-3-4, but not yet in master.

Regards,
Kendy

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Michael Meeks Michael Meeks
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Pedro
Hi there,

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 01:13 -0700, plino wrote:
> When you do a code freeze for a Beta (or any) release it means that a branch
> is created and to that branch only fixes are added but not new features,
> correct?

        Good question - that branch is libreoffice-3-4 and you have it about
right; yes. For new features we need some double (or more) code review
and we use that very sparingly; so far I've only seen one go in (fixing
the document shadows).

> Are the fixes to the Beta branch incorporated to the main code (trunk?)?
> I.e. the "trunk" contains all the fixes from the Beta branch plus new
> features (which probably have other bugs), right?

        That process is a bit slower; some fixes are committed to master, and
then cherry-picked back; but in general fixes go to libreoffice-3-4 and
then are merged back to master (somewhat intermittently). So it is best
to test a libreoffice-3-4 build if possible.

        HTH,

                Michael.

--
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Petr Mladek Petr Mladek
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier-2
Christian Lohmaier píše v St 04. 05. 2011 v 10:34 +0200:

> Hi *,
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Tor Lillqvist <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > [...]
> >> Will Beta4 overwrite my stable 3.3.2?
> >
> > 3.4(.0) beta 4 will, yes.
>
> Well, that is still to be questioned - as there are other packaging
> bugs that have not been resolved yet.
> So it will conflict with an installed 3.3.2 - on linux you'll have to
> manually remove 3.3.2 first, as installing it as an update is not
> possible.
>
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36551

I am going to do the following things for official Linux builds:

   * rename libreoffice3 packages to libreoffice3.4
   * change the default prefix from /opt/libreoffice to /opt/libreoffice3.4
   * keep user configuration in ~/.libreoffice/3

It seems to be easy to do for Linux. The smooth update from LO-3.3
newer really worked because the package creation system did not allow
to set obsoletes. So, the above change looks like the right choice for
Linux.

Note that we currently do not plan to use this approach for Windows
build. Instead, you will be able to use the daily builds that are going
to be done like dev builds.

Note that the installer is quite complex and some changes are not easy.
We are looking for volunteers who would help us to rework it ;-)


Best Regards,
Petr

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
Thank you all for the answers.

I guess my understanding of the tree analogy wasn't correct. So the trunk is the main code which comes from version 0.0 and will keep growing and from which a new branch (3.5) will soon "sprout" (or is this a sub-branch from a 3.0 branch?)

Within the 3.4 branch a new sub-branch was created (named 3.4Beta). Any fixes to bugs found in Beta are added to the sub-branch and also to the 3.4 branch (and later to the trunk) while new features are only added to the 3.4 branch (and at some point to the trunk). This branch will continue to "grow" and from which will sprout 3.4RC, 3.4.0, 3.4.1
(please correct my tree analogy if this is not it :) )

Am I wrong to assume that a current nightly build from the 3.4 branch is a better option for Beta testing (since the dev build fix was committed) than the official Beta4?

Why not skip Beta4 and release Beta5? It's not unusual in software development to skip releases...

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Michael Meeks [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi there,

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 01:13 -0700, plino wrote:
> When you do a code freeze for a Beta (or any) release it means that a branch
> is created and to that branch only fixes are added but not new features,
> correct?

        Good question - that branch is libreoffice-3-4 and you have it about
right; yes. For new features we need some double (or more) code review
and we use that very sparingly; so far I've only seen one go in (fixing
the document shadows).

> Are the fixes to the Beta branch incorporated to the main code (trunk?)?
> I.e. the "trunk" contains all the fixes from the Beta branch plus new
> features (which probably have other bugs), right?

        That process is a bit slower; some fixes are committed to master, and
then cherry-picked back; but in general fixes go to libreoffice-3-4 and
then are merged back to master (somewhat intermittently). So it is best
to test a libreoffice-3-4 build if possible.

        HTH,

                Michael.

--
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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] libreoffice-3.3.99.4 tag created (3.4.0-beta4)

In reply to this post by Thorsten Behrens
Hi Thorsten, *,

Thorsten Behrens schrieb:
> Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

>> This was only a matter of poking. No chance to do so for
>> people who cared.

> Hi Friedrich,

> while I agree in general, I don't think it provides much value to
> further gripe about the missing parallel installability here.

Agreed - even if hard exercise! ;o))

[..]

> Let's rather look forward, since there's always a next release -
> when the tinderboxen start providing master nightlies, those will
                                              ^^^^^^^^^  :o))
> have this feature included.

So we can prove how qick we learn, if the chain of accidents didn't
brake in 3.4.0 ..

SCNR ;o))

Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
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