Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

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htietze htietze
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Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

Hello all,

after a week off for the FOSDEM conference we will have a design/UX meeting tomorrow, WEDNESDAY FEB/06, 20:00 Berlin/CET/GMT+1 resp. 7pm UTC.
Here is the agenda:


Tickets

 * F11 keyboard shortcut for fullscreen rather than styles & formatting dialog
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83467

 * Add shortcut keys / hotkeys to set zoom level?
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82679

 * Shortcuts for shapes in Draw/Impress
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122928

 * When opening the navigator, the caret is no longer positioned on the list
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122900
   + see c3, c5

 * Return object Name and Description dialog buttons to object context menus
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101193
   + close as fixed/wfm or bring it back to the menu

 * EDITING: No INSERT ROWS ... (dialog box that allows adding a set number of rows)
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80390
   + WFM acc. c2 or accept


Full pad is here https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/design

Hope to see you on Jitsi at https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design

Cheers,
Heiko








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htietze htietze
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

While the idea of the Notebookbar is exactly this, to provide completely different UIs, I doubt we can make Base "a variant of Calc“. But you are very welcome to draft the idea or implement yourself (should be possible for everyone who uses mailing lists).

> Am 07.02.2019 um 21:26 schrieb Miguel Mayol <[hidden email]>:
>
> I had today a idea i think is a very good one:
>
> One interface option - better if it is the default one - in LO BASE equal to the CALC one
>
> The reason is that people are using EXCEL for databases
> because they do not know
> because they have the cheaper version of MSO without Access
> and because they think it is "easier"
>
> Doing this and a promo viral video that shows that it is
> - as easy as a spreadsheet to insert  and show data
> - and as powerful as a database to deal with it,
> especially addressed to university professors and PhD students, probably would increase a lot the use of BASE in substitution of MS Excel for managing databases, and the use of other components of LibreOffice.
>
> I went to bugzilla, but I was not able to log in, so sorry, but as I only collaborate with suggestions, I did not want this one that I think is great, and probably very easy to implement, to pass by.
>
> I remembered an old database named FileMaker that  was very easy to use because it had a interface near to what a spreadsheet is.


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Rosmaninho Rosmaninho
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

Just to mention that Microsoft Access (the equivalent to Base) is barely
used in the professional world.
Usually companies use Excel and connect it to MySQL or apps like PowerBI
depending on the purpose.

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 9:40 AM Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While the idea of the Notebookbar is exactly this, to provide completely
> different UIs, I doubt we can make Base "a variant of Calc“. But you are
> very welcome to draft the idea or implement yourself (should be possible
> for everyone who uses mailing lists).
>
> > Am 07.02.2019 um 21:26 schrieb Miguel Mayol <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > I had today a idea i think is a very good one:
> >
> > One interface option - better if it is the default one - in LO BASE
> equal to the CALC one
> >
> > The reason is that people are using EXCEL for databases
> > because they do not know
> > because they have the cheaper version of MSO without Access
> > and because they think it is "easier"
> >
> > Doing this and a promo viral video that shows that it is
> > - as easy as a spreadsheet to insert  and show data
> > - and as powerful as a database to deal with it,
> > especially addressed to university professors and PhD students, probably
> would increase a lot the use of BASE in substitution of MS Excel for
> managing databases, and the use of other components of LibreOffice.
> >
> > I went to bugzilla, but I was not able to log in, so sorry, but as I
> only collaborate with suggestions, I did not want this one that I think is
> great, and probably very easy to implement, to pass by.
> >
> > I remembered an old database named FileMaker that  was very easy to use
> because it had a interface near to what a spreadsheet is.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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Italo Vignoli-5 Italo Vignoli-5
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

I cannot disagree more. In Italy, most enterprises and every public
administration are using Microsoft Access, and this represents a problem
when they have to migrate to LibreOffice (as Base is not seen as a good
replacement for Microsoft Access, because is missing the scripting feature).

On 10/02/2019 10:56, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:

> Just to mention that Microsoft Access (the equivalent to Base) is barely
> used in the professional world.
> Usually companies use Excel and connect it to MySQL or apps like PowerBI
> depending on the purpose.
>
> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 9:40 AM Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> While the idea of the Notebookbar is exactly this, to provide completely
>> different UIs, I doubt we can make Base "a variant of Calc“. But you are
>> very welcome to draft the idea or implement yourself (should be possible
>> for everyone who uses mailing lists).
>>
>>> Am 07.02.2019 um 21:26 schrieb Miguel Mayol <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> I had today a idea i think is a very good one:
>>>
>>> One interface option - better if it is the default one - in LO BASE
>> equal to the CALC one
>>>
>>> The reason is that people are using EXCEL for databases
>>> because they do not know
>>> because they have the cheaper version of MSO without Access
>>> and because they think it is "easier"
>>>
>>> Doing this and a promo viral video that shows that it is
>>> - as easy as a spreadsheet to insert  and show data
>>> - and as powerful as a database to deal with it,
>>> especially addressed to university professors and PhD students, probably
>> would increase a lot the use of BASE in substitution of MS Excel for
>> managing databases, and the use of other components of LibreOffice.
>>>
>>> I went to bugzilla, but I was not able to log in, so sorry, but as I
>> only collaborate with suggestions, I did not want this one that I think is
>> great, and probably very easy to implement, to pass by.
>>>
>>> I remembered an old database named FileMaker that  was very easy to use
>> because it had a interface near to what a spreadsheet is.
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>> Problems?
>> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>>
>


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Franklin Weng-2 Franklin Weng-2
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

On February 11, 2019 2:08:58 AM GMT+08:00, Italo Vignoli <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I cannot disagree more. In Italy, most enterprises and every public
>administration are using Microsoft Access, and this represents a
>problem
>when they have to migrate to LibreOffice (as Base is not seen as a good
>replacement for Microsoft Access, because is missing the scripting
>feature).
>
>On 10/02/2019 10:56, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>> Just to mention that Microsoft Access (the equivalent to Base) is
>barely
>> used in the professional world.
>> Usually companies use Excel and connect it to MySQL or apps like
>PowerBI
>> depending on the purpose.
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 9:40 AM Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>>> While the idea of the Notebookbar is exactly this, to provide
>completely
>>> different UIs, I doubt we can make Base "a variant of Calc“. But you
>are
>>> very welcome to draft the idea or implement yourself (should be
>possible
>>> for everyone who uses mailing lists).
>>>
>>>> Am 07.02.2019 um 21:26 schrieb Miguel Mayol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>> I had today a idea i think is a very good one:
>>>>
>>>> One interface option - better if it is the default one - in LO BASE
>>> equal to the CALC one
>>>>
>>>> The reason is that people are using EXCEL for databases
>>>> because they do not know
>>>> because they have the cheaper version of MSO without Access
>>>> and because they think it is "easier"
>>>>
>>>> Doing this and a promo viral video that shows that it is
>>>> - as easy as a spreadsheet to insert  and show data
>>>> - and as powerful as a database to deal with it,
>>>> especially addressed to university professors and PhD students,
>probably
>>> would increase a lot the use of BASE in substitution of MS Excel for
>>> managing databases, and the use of other components of LibreOffice.
>>>>
>>>> I went to bugzilla, but I was not able to log in, so sorry, but as
>I
>>> only collaborate with suggestions, I did not want this one that I
>think is
>>> great, and probably very easy to implement, to pass by.
>>>>
>>>> I remembered an old database named FileMaker that  was very easy to
>use
>>> because it had a interface near to what a spreadsheet is.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>>> Problems?
>>>
>https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>>> Posting guidelines + more:
>https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
>>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>>>
>>
>
>
>--
>Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR
>email [hidden email]
>mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - skype italovignoli
>hangout/jabber [hidden email]
>The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
>Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
>Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
>DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0
>
>--
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>Problems?
>https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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Currently in enterprise migration there are still two big gaps : Macros and Databases.  IIRC a few years before when we talked about this, the solutions were that we'd help the customers to use *real* rational databases like MySQL/Mariadb, …etc., with some simple web interfaces (MySQL admin?) to replace Access.  After all, Access or Base is just(?) front-end agents of these real databases.

--
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The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE 

Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts 

Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

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Rosmaninho Rosmaninho
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

How do the macros in LO work? I thought they were Basic macros? What's the
difference for the VBA macros of excel?

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 10:41 PM Franklin Weng <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On February 11, 2019 2:08:58 AM GMT+08:00, Italo Vignoli <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >I cannot disagree more. In Italy, most enterprises and every public
> >administration are using Microsoft Access, and this represents a
> >problem
> >when they have to migrate to LibreOffice (as Base is not seen as a good
> >replacement for Microsoft Access, because is missing the scripting
> >feature).
> >
> >On 10/02/2019 10:56, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> >> Just to mention that Microsoft Access (the equivalent to Base) is
> >barely
> >> used in the professional world.
> >> Usually companies use Excel and connect it to MySQL or apps like
> >PowerBI
> >> depending on the purpose.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 9:40 AM Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>> While the idea of the Notebookbar is exactly this, to provide
> >completely
> >>> different UIs, I doubt we can make Base "a variant of Calc“. But you
> >are
> >>> very welcome to draft the idea or implement yourself (should be
> >possible
> >>> for everyone who uses mailing lists).
> >>>
> >>>> Am 07.02.2019 um 21:26 schrieb Miguel Mayol <[hidden email]>:
> >>>>
> >>>> I had today a idea i think is a very good one:
> >>>>
> >>>> One interface option - better if it is the default one - in LO BASE
> >>> equal to the CALC one
> >>>>
> >>>> The reason is that people are using EXCEL for databases
> >>>> because they do not know
> >>>> because they have the cheaper version of MSO without Access
> >>>> and because they think it is "easier"
> >>>>
> >>>> Doing this and a promo viral video that shows that it is
> >>>> - as easy as a spreadsheet to insert  and show data
> >>>> - and as powerful as a database to deal with it,
> >>>> especially addressed to university professors and PhD students,
> >probably
> >>> would increase a lot the use of BASE in substitution of MS Excel for
> >>> managing databases, and the use of other components of LibreOffice.
> >>>>
> >>>> I went to bugzilla, but I was not able to log in, so sorry, but as
> >I
> >>> only collaborate with suggestions, I did not want this one that I
> >think is
> >>> great, and probably very easy to implement, to pass by.
> >>>>
> >>>> I remembered an old database named FileMaker that  was very easy to
> >use
> >>> because it had a interface near to what a spreadsheet is.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> >>> Problems?
> >>>
> >https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> >>> Posting guidelines + more:
> >https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> >>> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> >>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR
> >email [hidden email]
> >mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - skype italovignoli
> >hangout/jabber [hidden email]
> >The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
> >Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> >Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
> >GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
> >DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> >Problems?
> >https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> >Posting guidelines + more:
> >https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> >List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> >Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>
> Currently in enterprise migration there are still two big gaps : Macros
> and Databases.  IIRC a few years before when we talked about this, the
> solutions were that we'd help the customers to use *real* rational
> databases like MySQL/Mariadb, …etc., with some simple web interfaces (MySQL
> admin?) to replace Access.  After all, Access or Base is just(?) front-end
> agents of these real databases.
>
> --
> Franklin Weng, Member, Board of Director & Certification Commitee
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
>
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
>
> Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>

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Gerhard Weydt Gerhard Weydt
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

In reply to this post by Italo Vignoli-5
Hi Italo,

What do you mean when saying Base "is missing the scripting feature"?
Surely you can use macros in Base, as well as in other components of
LibreOffice. These macros can be written in Baisc, which I have often
used, or in some other languages, which I haven't tried myself. And
without these surely a database application generally would be very
"raw", confined to the basic actions. The work that Base or the the
database does is essential for the whole business, and without it
nothing would work, but the checks and actions done by the additional
programming (using macros or even some sophisticated functions of the
database system) are the points that end users can value. They decide
about a system being accepted.
Now much can be done using Basic macros, which is quite easy. Using them
really is adding the salt to the dish. There may be some cases where
Basic is too slow, because it is interpreting the code. Then you can use
other scripting languages, which I haven't done, but other people speak
of it.
But there may be a big problem for people used to Access: as far as I
understand, macros used in Access cannot be simply transferred to
LibreOffice, because the Basic dialects are not completely compatible. I
have never had to do with these problems, so I cannot say more, but I
fear that this may be the cause for some people to reject trying
LibreOffice. Which is a shame because looking at a problem from a new
angle is in many cases very helpful.
As regards Excel instead of Access or Calc instead of Base: that seems
to be a general problem, the practically endless table of Calc/Excel
provides the basic features most needed at first sight , without any
effort for definition of structures; the difficulties creep in later,
and the users try for a very long time to mend the problems, instead of
rethinking the situation. This is a general problem, not concerned only
with LibreOffice.
I can only offer my opinion that in many cases the use of Excel (or
Calc) is second best and due to a neglect of deeper investigation, which
would have yielded a database solution, but how can we change that?

Greetings

Gerhard

Am 10.02.2019 um 19:08 schrieb Italo Vignoli:

> I cannot disagree more. In Italy, most enterprises and every public
> administration are using Microsoft Access, and this represents a problem
> when they have to migrate to LibreOffice (as Base is not seen as a good
> replacement for Microsoft Access, because is missing the scripting feature).
>
> On 10/02/2019 10:56, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>> Just to mention that Microsoft Access (the equivalent to Base) is barely
>> used in the professional world.
>> Usually companies use Excel and connect it to MySQL or apps like PowerBI
>> depending on the purpose.
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 9:40 AM Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> While the idea of the Notebookbar is exactly this, to provide completely
>>> different UIs, I doubt we can make Base "a variant of Calc“. But you are
>>> very welcome to draft the idea or implement yourself (should be possible
>>> for everyone who uses mailing lists).
>>>
>>>> Am 07.02.2019 um 21:26 schrieb Miguel Mayol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>> I had today a idea i think is a very good one:
>>>>
>>>> One interface option - better if it is the default one - in LO BASE
>>> equal to the CALC one
>>>> The reason is that people are using EXCEL for databases
>>>> because they do not know
>>>> because they have the cheaper version of MSO without Access
>>>> and because they think it is "easier"
>>>>
>>>> Doing this and a promo viral video that shows that it is
>>>> - as easy as a spreadsheet to insert  and show data
>>>> - and as powerful as a database to deal with it,
>>>> especially addressed to university professors and PhD students, probably
>>> would increase a lot the use of BASE in substitution of MS Excel for
>>> managing databases, and the use of other components of LibreOffice.
>>>> I went to bugzilla, but I was not able to log in, so sorry, but as I
>>> only collaborate with suggestions, I did not want this one that I think is
>>> great, and probably very easy to implement, to pass by.
>>>> I remembered an old database named FileMaker that  was very easy to use
>>> because it had a interface near to what a spreadsheet is.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>>> Problems?
>>> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>>> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
>>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>>>
>


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Franklin Weng-2 Franklin Weng-2
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

In reply to this post by Rosmaninho
On February 11, 2019 7:44:49 AM GMT+08:00, Pedro Rosmaninho <[hidden email]> wrote:
>How do the macros in LO work? I thought they were Basic macros? What's
>the
>difference for the VBA macros of excel?
>

StarBasic, not Visual basic.  Excel VBA cannot directly convert to StarBasic so they need to be rewritten or recorded again.

I would suggest using Python to recreate macros instead of using StarBasic, just that currently there is not many documents available.

--
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The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE 

Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts 

Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

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kainz.a kainz.a
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

I use only real databases in enterprise and connect them via a webserver to
writer cause my main documents are writer files and some basic parameters
comes from the databases.

The good thing is that I can separate the database stuff from the user
stuff. So the user can write the documents, make the layout, ... and can
use the values from the databases. You only have to link the file with the
database query.

I would love to see some improvements in this direction, not only we are
not compatible with mso. Nobody like macros so we don't have to copy it but
offer an better solution, could improve our situation.

Am Mo., 11. Feb. 2019, 03:42 hat Franklin Weng <[hidden email]>
geschrieben:

> On February 11, 2019 7:44:49 AM GMT+08:00, Pedro Rosmaninho <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >How do the macros in LO work? I thought they were Basic macros? What's
> >the
> >difference for the VBA macros of excel?
> >
>
> StarBasic, not Visual basic.  Excel VBA cannot directly convert to
> StarBasic so they need to be rewritten or recorded again.
>
> I would suggest using Python to recreate macros instead of using
> StarBasic, just that currently there is not many documents available.
>
> --
> Franklin Weng, Member, Board of Director & Certification Commitee
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
>
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
>
> Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>
> --
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Italo Vignoli-5 Italo Vignoli-5
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

In reply to this post by Gerhard Weydt
I am completely ignorant about development, but what I know is that
Microsoft Access has a proprietary database engine which can be used to
develop database applications, and is definitely not VBA or any other
flavour of BASIC (although Access can use VBA). These databases are not
easy to manage with Base, and in any case people used to Access expect
Base to be similar to Access.

The fact that many users rely on Excel/Calc for databases is another
story, but in that case interoperability is not a major issue. In these
cases we try to educate people to move to a real DBMS but this is often
difficult because of the sheer incompetence of people, who do not know
the difference between a table and a database.

Of course, Microsoft is not doing anything to educate people, because
they prosper on ignorance.

Best regards, Italo

On 11/02/2019 02:21, Gerhard Weydt wrote:

> What do you mean when saying Base "is missing the scripting feature"?
> Surely you can use macros in Base, as well as in other components of
> LibreOffice. These macros can be written in Baisc, which I have often
> used, or in some other languages, which I haven't tried myself. And
> without these surely a database application generally would be very
> "raw", confined to the basic actions. The work that Base or the the
> database does is essential for the whole business, and without it
> nothing would work, but the checks and actions done by the additional
> programming (using macros or even some sophisticated functions of the
> database system) are the points that end users can value. They decide
> about a system being accepted.
> Now much can be done using Basic macros, which is quite easy. Using them
> really is adding the salt to the dish. There may be some cases where
> Basic is too slow, because it is interpreting the code. Then you can use
> other scripting languages, which I haven't done, but other people speak
> of it.
> But there may be a big problem for people used to Access: as far as I
> understand, macros used in Access cannot be simply transferred to
> LibreOffice, because the Basic dialects are not completely compatible. I
> have never had to do with these problems, so I cannot say more, but I
> fear that this may be the cause for some people to reject trying
> LibreOffice. Which is a shame because looking at a problem from a new
> angle is in many cases very helpful.
> As regards Excel instead of Access or Calc instead of Base: that seems
> to be a general problem, the practically endless table of Calc/Excel
> provides the basic features most needed at first sight , without any
> effort for definition of structures; the difficulties creep in later,
> and the users try for a very long time to mend the problems, instead of
> rethinking the situation. This is a general problem, not concerned only
> with LibreOffice.
> I can only offer my opinion that in many cases the use of Excel (or
> Calc) is second best and due to a neglect of deeper investigation, which
> would have yielded a database solution, but how can we change that?



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Rosmaninho Rosmaninho
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

In reply to this post by Franklin Weng-2
Thank you and Gerhard for clearing this up to me.

Calc has several limitations and quirks that make it harder for companies
to even consider replacing Microsoft Office with LibreOffice, but IMO this
is the most important one.
I can't speak for Italy, but in Portugal barely any big organization uses
Access. They all do their work in Excel but they require macros.
And no organization would even consider replacing Microsoft Office if
there's no macro compatibility. Hundreds of spreadsheets with macros that
would have to be converted?

This is not the correct mailing list for this, I know but was it ever
considered to move from StarBasic to VBA?

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 2:42 AM Franklin Weng <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On February 11, 2019 7:44:49 AM GMT+08:00, Pedro Rosmaninho <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >How do the macros in LO work? I thought they were Basic macros? What's
> >the
> >difference for the VBA macros of excel?
> >
>
> StarBasic, not Visual basic.  Excel VBA cannot directly convert to
> StarBasic so they need to be rewritten or recorded again.
>
> I would suggest using Python to recreate macros instead of using
> StarBasic, just that currently there is not many documents available.
>
> --
> Franklin Weng, Member, Board of Director & Certification Commitee
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
>
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
>
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Olivier Hallot-4 Olivier Hallot-4
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

In reply to this post by Franklin Weng-2
Hello Franklin

We are filling these documentation gaps these days, thanks to
LibreOfficiant and myself.

https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/sbasic/python/main0000.html

https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/q/status:merged+project:help+owner:%22LibreO%25EF%25AC%2583ciant+%253CLibreOfficiant%2540sfr.fr%253E%22

Also, the wiki has many pages on Python. Admittedly, Python macros are
not as integrated as Basic macros, but it works.

Kind regards

Olivier


Em 11/02/2019 00:42, Franklin Weng escreveu:
> On February 11, 2019 7:44:49 AM GMT+08:00, Pedro Rosmaninho <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> How do the macros in LO work? I thought they were Basic macros? What's
>> the
>> difference for the VBA macros of excel?
>>
> StarBasic, not Visual basic.  Excel VBA cannot directly convert to StarBasic so they need to be rewritten or recorded again.
>
> I would suggest using Python to recreate macros instead of using StarBasic, just that currently there is not many documents available.
>
--
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LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
Comunidade LibreOffice
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
http://tdf.io/joinus 


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Franklin Weng-2 Franklin Weng-2
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

Hi Olivier,

Olivier Hallot 於 2019/2/11 下午6:37 寫道:

> Hello Franklin
>
> We are filling these documentation gaps these days, thanks to
> LibreOfficiant and myself.
>
> https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/sbasic/python/main0000.html
>
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/q/status:merged+project:help+owner:%22LibreO%25EF%25AC%2583ciant+%253CLibreOfficiant%2540sfr.fr%253E%22
>
> Also, the wiki has many pages on Python. Admittedly, Python macros are
> not as integrated as Basic macros, but it works.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Olivier


Thanks a lot for your efforts!

This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?

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Olivier Hallot-4 Olivier Hallot-4
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

Hi Franklin

Em 11/02/2019 09:21, Franklin Weng escreveu:
> This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?

Actually these pages are for any LibreOffice release, Python  scripts
were available from loooong time. But we started adding Help pages after
string freeze deadline for 6.2. For what it worth, "6.3" is the master
branch.

Regards

--
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Comunidade LibreOffice
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
http://tdf.io/joinus 


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Rosmaninho Rosmaninho
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

Well adding support for VBA would be nice, since it's not developed by
Microsoft anymore but they wont remove.
So why not add support for it, even without removing LO's implementation?

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:35 AM Olivier Hallot <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Franklin
>
> Em 11/02/2019 09:21, Franklin Weng escreveu:
> > This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?
>
> Actually these pages are for any LibreOffice release, Python  scripts
> were available from loooong time. But we started adding Help pages after
> string freeze deadline for 6.2. For what it worth, "6.3" is the master
> branch.
>
> Regards
>
> --
> Olivier Hallot
> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
> Comunidade LibreOffice
> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
> http://tdf.io/joinus
>
>
> --
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

These are the types of compatibility issues that really cripple LO
adoption, even moreso than full file format compatibility.

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:57 AM Pedro Rosmaninho <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Well adding support for VBA would be nice, since it's not developed by
> Microsoft anymore but they wont remove.
> So why not add support for it, even without removing LO's implementation?
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:35 AM Olivier Hallot <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Franklin
>>
>> Em 11/02/2019 09:21, Franklin Weng escreveu:
>> > This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?
>>
>> Actually these pages are for any LibreOffice release, Python  scripts
>> were available from loooong time. But we started adding Help pages after
>> string freeze deadline for 6.2. For what it worth, "6.3" is the master
>> branch.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> --
>> Olivier Hallot
>> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
>> Comunidade LibreOffice
>> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
>> http://tdf.io/joinus
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>

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kainz.a kainz.a
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

maybe it's true, but I would prefer to have first level support for open
source solutions instead of look that LibO is compatible with MSO macros.
Have the same (or better) functionality with open source solutions would be
way cooler (maybe in cooperation with LOOL and Cloud storage.

Am Di., 12. Feb. 2019 um 10:58 Uhr schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho <
[hidden email]>:

> These are the types of compatibility issues that really cripple LO
> adoption, even moreso than full file format compatibility.
>
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:57 AM Pedro Rosmaninho <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Well adding support for VBA would be nice, since it's not developed by
> > Microsoft anymore but they wont remove.
> > So why not add support for it, even without removing LO's implementation?
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:35 AM Olivier Hallot <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Franklin
> >>
> >> Em 11/02/2019 09:21, Franklin Weng escreveu:
> >> > This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?
> >>
> >> Actually these pages are for any LibreOffice release, Python  scripts
> >> were available from loooong time. But we started adding Help pages after
> >> string freeze deadline for 6.2. For what it worth, "6.3" is the master
> >> branch.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> --
> >> Olivier Hallot
> >> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
> >> Comunidade LibreOffice
> >> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
> >> http://tdf.io/joinus
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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> >> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
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> >>
> >
>
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

Well, it already has the same or better functionality with open source
solutions so it's already way cooler in that regard. Now it just needs to
support VBA so that more orgs will migrate to it and notice that it's way
cooler. :)

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:09 AM kainz.a <[hidden email]> wrote:

> maybe it's true, but I would prefer to have first level support for open
> source solutions instead of look that LibO is compatible with MSO macros.
> Have the same (or better) functionality with open source solutions would be
> way cooler (maybe in cooperation with LOOL and Cloud storage.
>
> Am Di., 12. Feb. 2019 um 10:58 Uhr schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho <
> [hidden email]>:
>
>> These are the types of compatibility issues that really cripple LO
>> adoption, even moreso than full file format compatibility.
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:57 AM Pedro Rosmaninho <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Well adding support for VBA would be nice, since it's not developed by
>> > Microsoft anymore but they wont remove.
>> > So why not add support for it, even without removing LO's
>> implementation?
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:35 AM Olivier Hallot <
>> > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Franklin
>> >>
>> >> Em 11/02/2019 09:21, Franklin Weng escreveu:
>> >> > This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?
>> >>
>> >> Actually these pages are for any LibreOffice release, Python  scripts
>> >> were available from loooong time. But we started adding Help pages
>> after
>> >> string freeze deadline for 6.2. For what it worth, "6.3" is the master
>> >> branch.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Olivier Hallot
>> >> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
>> >> Comunidade LibreOffice
>> >> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
>> >> http://tdf.io/joinus
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>> >> Problems?
>> >> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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>> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
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>> >>
>> >
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Olivier Hallot-4 Olivier Hallot-4
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Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

I lead several LO migration in small and big corporations in my
professional life. Macros is a symptom of IT default with respect of
the company business.

As life goes on anyway, support for VBA in LO is partial and solves a
lot of (very) simple situations(*). LO object model uniqueness is to
blame and turns migration a nightmare, support for coding LO
Basic/Python is minimal (I can't code without Xray macro) and LO SDK is
of no use for the end user.

No matter how easy is the languages (Basic,  Python, etc...),  without a
redesign of the API object *nomenclature*, we will still continue to
make migration of macros a big issue. To be clear, Sheet(0) has a
meaning but ThisComponent.getSheets().getByIndex(0) or
ThisComponent.Sheets.Sheet(0) much less.

Regards
Olivier
(*)
https://help.libreoffice.org/6.2/en-US/text/sbasic/shared/special_vba_func.html
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=114263


Em 12/02/2019 08:11, Pedro Rosmaninho escreveu:

> Well, it already has the same or better functionality with open source
> solutions so it's already way cooler in that regard. Now it just needs to
> support VBA so that more orgs will migrate to it and notice that it's way
> cooler. :)
>
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:09 AM kainz.a <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> maybe it's true, but I would prefer to have first level support for open
>> source solutions instead of look that LibO is compatible with MSO macros.
>> Have the same (or better) functionality with open source solutions would be
>> way cooler (maybe in cooperation with LOOL and Cloud storage.
>>
>> Am Di., 12. Feb. 2019 um 10:58 Uhr schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho <
>> [hidden email]>:
>>
>>> These are the types of compatibility issues that really cripple LO
>>> adoption, even moreso than full file format compatibility.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:57 AM Pedro Rosmaninho <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well adding support for VBA would be nice, since it's not developed by
>>>> Microsoft anymore but they wont remove.
>>>> So why not add support for it, even without removing LO's
>>> implementation?
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:35 AM Olivier Hallot <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Franklin
>>>>>
>>>>> Em 11/02/2019 09:21, Franklin Weng escreveu:
>>>>>> This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually these pages are for any LibreOffice release, Python  scripts
>>>>> were available from loooong time. But we started adding Help pages
>>> after
>>>>> string freeze deadline for 6.2. For what it worth, "6.3" is the master
>>>>> branch.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Olivier Hallot
>>>>> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
>>>>> Comunidade LibreOffice
>>>>> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
>>>>> http://tdf.io/joinus
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>>>>> Problems?
>>>>> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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>>> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>>>> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
>>>>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>>>
>>
>

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