AltGr functionality

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Johnny Rosenberg Johnny Rosenberg
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AltGr functionality

Hi!

This is something that I've seen for years and I think it applies to Apache
OpenOffice as well. Since I live in a country where English is not the
native language, my keyboard has this AltGr button, I think it's also
called the ”Right Alt key” (and the regular Alt key is referred to as the
”Left Alt key”) in most of the operating systems I've used (currently
Manjaro, I switched from Ubuntu a couple of years ago). Since my alphabet
has 29 letters, there are too few keys for the characters @£${[]}\€, so the
AltGr key is used for that, for instance AltGr+8 → [.

This works perfectly in LibreOffice, no problems there, but it seems like
the AltGr key is disabled, overridden, in some situations, for instance in
combination with the arrow keys, so Alt+← has the exact same effect as just
the ← key by itself.

Do anyone here happen to know why? ←→↓↑ are just keys, like k, c and f.

The reason I ask is that I use my own keyboard layout to make it more
intuitive to type some characters that are normally not on a keyboard, so I
rearranged the original layout a bit. Almost every key now can type a
character with AltGr, in combination with Shift or not. A few examples:
AltGr+[Enter] → ↵
AltGr+Shift+[Enter] → ¶
AltGr+[Tab] → ⇥
AltGr+Shift+[Tab] → ⇤
AltGr+[Backspace] → ⌫
AltGr+Shift+[Backspace] → ⌦
AltGr+↑ → ↑ (the ↑ character, not the ”move to the line above” feature)
and more.

Anyway, since the AltGr key seems disabled in combination with these keys,
I can't type those arrows and things I just mentioned in LibreOffice,
unless I place them at other keys in my layout, but that would be less
intuitive (why would AltGr+i be a →? It is on my native default keyboard
layout, but that doesn't make much sense, does it?).

I mean it's 2019, Unicode has been along for decades and we should be able
to use it with ease, right? I know there are workarounds, like
auto-correction and external programs like AutoKey (which I recommend, by
the way, but only install the latest version; the version in Ubuntu's
repositories for instance, is very outdated and doesn't work properly).

Also, do you think that writing a bug report about this would lead to
anything good? I suspect I will get something like ”don't make your own
keyboard layouts, you moron” in reply at best.

Thanks for listening.
Kind regards

Johnny Rosenberg

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Peter Maunder Peter Maunder
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Re: AltGr functionality

I suggest you check your system/keyboard settings to sort out the default
system settings. How you do this will depend on your system first not LibO
and the actual keyboard, language and brand. What operating system and
language are you using, and what keyboard setting is defined?

AltGr is controlled by your system KEYBOARD setting. Technically they are
called LEVEL 3 and LEVEL 4 (AltGr and SHIFT-ALtGr). Level 1 and 2 are
Lowercase and Shift. The settings depend on your keyboard, language and the
use of Keyboard-OPTIONS. The keyboard input is then handed over to the
application, in this case LibreOffice.

For example on my Keyboard set to English (UK) international, many of the
European accents, are set using the AltGr, for example ç é á Ç É Á and €
(the latter is dependant on the option settings).

I also have American-International,  Irish, German(Switzerland) as
alternative keyboard settings to test different settings for LibO, oh and
French(French).  They are controlled by the system.



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mikey mikey
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Re: AltGr functionality

In reply to this post by Johnny Rosenberg
It's not just "the system." Your "keyboard setting" is a layered approach:
BIOS, <- system kernel, <- startup daemons, <-display driver (x.org +
Gnome, etc.) <- app. You need to work your way up the chain. Any keyboard
setting at a higher level can override lower level settings. Also, you
might check your mouse/pointer driver. Some mouse drivers can have traps on
control keys.

On Sun, Jun 16, 2019 at 4:07 AM Johnny Rosenberg <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi!
>
> This is something that I've seen for years and I think it applies to Apache
> OpenOffice as well. Since I live in a country where English is not the
> native language, my keyboard has this AltGr button, I think it's also
> called the ”Right Alt key” (and the regular Alt key is referred to as the
> ”Left Alt key”) in most of the operating systems I've used (currently
> Manjaro, I switched from Ubuntu a couple of years ago). Since my alphabet
> has 29 letters, there are too few keys for the characters @£${[]}\€, so the
> AltGr key is used for that, for instance AltGr+8 → [.
>
> This works perfectly in LibreOffice, no problems there, but it seems like
> the AltGr key is disabled, overridden, in some situations, for instance in
> combination with the arrow keys, so Alt+← has the exact same effect as just
> the ← key by itself.
>
> Do anyone here happen to know why? ←→↓↑ are just keys, like k, c and f.
>
> The reason I ask is that I use my own keyboard layout to make it more
> intuitive to type some characters that are normally not on a keyboard, so I
> rearranged the original layout a bit. Almost every key now can type a
> character with AltGr, in combination with Shift or not. A few examples:
> AltGr+[Enter] → ↵
> AltGr+Shift+[Enter] → ¶
> AltGr+[Tab] → ⇥
> AltGr+Shift+[Tab] → ⇤
> AltGr+[Backspace] → ⌫
> AltGr+Shift+[Backspace] → ⌦
> AltGr+↑ → ↑ (the ↑ character, not the ”move to the line above” feature)
> and more.
>
> Anyway, since the AltGr key seems disabled in combination with these keys,
> I can't type those arrows and things I just mentioned in LibreOffice,
> unless I place them at other keys in my layout, but that would be less
> intuitive (why would AltGr+i be a →? It is on my native default keyboard
> layout, but that doesn't make much sense, does it?).
>
> I mean it's 2019, Unicode has been along for decades and we should be able
> to use it with ease, right? I know there are workarounds, like
> auto-correction and external programs like AutoKey (which I recommend, by
> the way, but only install the latest version; the version in Ubuntu's
> repositories for instance, is very outdated and doesn't work properly).
>
> Also, do you think that writing a bug report about this would lead to
> anything good? I suspect I will get something like ”don't make your own
> keyboard layouts, you moron” in reply at best.
>
> Thanks for listening.
> Kind regards
>
> Johnny Rosenberg
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems?
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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Johnny Rosenberg Johnny Rosenberg
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Re: AltGr functionality

In reply to this post by Peter Maunder
Den sön 16 juni 2019 kl 16:19 skrev Peter Maunder <[hidden email]
>:

> I suggest you check your system/keyboard settings to sort out the default
> system settings.


I already know that it works with my default settings. It's only with my
own layout it doesn't work. The main reason for that is probably that my
own layout is the only one that use those keys for typing characters (with
AltGr).


> How you do this will depend on your system first not LibO
> and the actual keyboard, language and brand. What operating system and
> language are you using, and what keyboard setting is defined?
>

Manjaro and I use a standard Swedish keyboard.


> AltGr is controlled by your system KEYBOARD setting. Technically they are
> called LEVEL 3 and LEVEL 4 (AltGr and SHIFT-ALtGr). Level 1 and 2 are
> Lowercase and Shift. The settings depend on your keyboard, language and the
> use of Keyboard-OPTIONS. The keyboard input is then handed over to the
> application, in this case LibreOffice.
>

Yes, but can you then explain why it works in most other applications? It
works perfectly in all of the text editors I tried so far, for instance.
There are some difficulties with some web browsers, though. Firefox is the
one that works best in this aspect.

>
> For example on my Keyboard set to English (UK) international, many of the
> European accents, are set using the AltGr, for example ç é á Ç É Á and €
> (the latter is dependant on the option settings).
>

Yes, but you can't type with your arrow keys. I can. Except not in
LibreOffice. Here are what's on AltGr+<arrow keys> and AltGr+Shift+<arrow
keys>: ←↑↓→ ⬄↹↔⇨
When using AltGr+<arrowkey|enter|tab|insert|delete|home|end|page up|page
down>, LibreOffice seems to ignore AltGr completely, but not when using for
instance AltGr+c which types a ℃ character.

So if the problem is in my system, why does it work in some applications?
It shouldn't work at all then, should it?
As I said, it SEEMS like LibreOffice ignores AltGr if it's not combined
with a key that normally types some kind of character.

>
> I also have American-International,  Irish, German(Switzerland) as
> alternative keyboard settings to test different settings for LibO, oh and
> French(French).  They are controlled by the system.
>
>
Then I would appreciate very much if somebody would help me finding out
what's wrong with my layout. I'll share my configurations to everyone who
asks for it. Not asking anyone to help with that, just saying I would
appreciate it.
Thanks for replying. ☺

Kind regards

Johnny Rosenberg




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Johnny Rosenberg Johnny Rosenberg
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Re: AltGr functionality

In reply to this post by mikey
Den sön 16 juni 2019 kl 16:50 skrev Michael H <[hidden email]>:

> It's not just "the system." Your "keyboard setting" is a layered approach:
> BIOS, <- system kernel, <- startup daemons, <-display driver (x.org +
> Gnome, etc.) <- app. You need to work your way up the chain. Any keyboard
> setting at a higher level can override lower level settings. Also, you
> might check your mouse/pointer driver. Some mouse drivers can have traps on
> control keys.
>

Yes, that makes sense to me.
My feeling is that since it's not very common that people type characters
with keys like tab, enter, arrows etc, maybe this is just something that
the LibreOffice developers didn't think of. Maybe it's possible that this
can be ”fixed” somehow, but at the same time I have the feeling since I'm
probably the only one in the world who does this, the developers won't care.

Thanks for replying.


Kind regards

Johnny Rosenberg


> On Sun, Jun 16, 2019 at 4:07 AM Johnny Rosenberg <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> This is something that I've seen for years and I think it applies to
>> Apache
>> OpenOffice as well. Since I live in a country where English is not the
>> native language, my keyboard has this AltGr button, I think it's also
>> called the ”Right Alt key” (and the regular Alt key is referred to as the
>> ”Left Alt key”) in most of the operating systems I've used (currently
>> Manjaro, I switched from Ubuntu a couple of years ago). Since my alphabet
>> has 29 letters, there are too few keys for the characters @£${[]}\€, so
>> the
>> AltGr key is used for that, for instance AltGr+8 → [.
>>
>> This works perfectly in LibreOffice, no problems there, but it seems like
>> the AltGr key is disabled, overridden, in some situations, for instance in
>> combination with the arrow keys, so Alt+← has the exact same effect as
>> just
>> the ← key by itself.
>>
>> Do anyone here happen to know why? ←→↓↑ are just keys, like k, c and f.
>>
>> The reason I ask is that I use my own keyboard layout to make it more
>> intuitive to type some characters that are normally not on a keyboard, so
>> I
>> rearranged the original layout a bit. Almost every key now can type a
>> character with AltGr, in combination with Shift or not. A few examples:
>> AltGr+[Enter] → ↵
>> AltGr+Shift+[Enter] → ¶
>> AltGr+[Tab] → ⇥
>> AltGr+Shift+[Tab] → ⇤
>> AltGr+[Backspace] → ⌫
>> AltGr+Shift+[Backspace] → ⌦
>> AltGr+↑ → ↑ (the ↑ character, not the ”move to the line above” feature)
>> and more.
>>
>> Anyway, since the AltGr key seems disabled in combination with these keys,
>> I can't type those arrows and things I just mentioned in LibreOffice,
>> unless I place them at other keys in my layout, but that would be less
>> intuitive (why would AltGr+i be a →? It is on my native default keyboard
>> layout, but that doesn't make much sense, does it?).
>>
>> I mean it's 2019, Unicode has been along for decades and we should be able
>> to use it with ease, right? I know there are workarounds, like
>> auto-correction and external programs like AutoKey (which I recommend, by
>> the way, but only install the latest version; the version in Ubuntu's
>> repositories for instance, is very outdated and doesn't work properly).
>>
>> Also, do you think that writing a bug report about this would lead to
>> anything good? I suspect I will get something like ”don't make your own
>> keyboard layouts, you moron” in reply at best.
>>
>> Thanks for listening.
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Johnny Rosenberg
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>> Problems?
>> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
>> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
>>
>

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Dave Howorth Dave Howorth
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Re: AltGr functionality

In reply to this post by Johnny Rosenberg
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 17:18:19 +0200
Johnny Rosenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Den sön 16 juni 2019 kl 16:19 skrev Peter Maunder
> <[hidden email]
> >:  
>
> > I suggest you check your system/keyboard settings to sort out the
> > default system settings.  
>
>
> I already know that it works with my default settings. It's only with
> my own layout it doesn't work. The main reason for that is probably
> that my own layout is the only one that use those keys for typing
> characters (with AltGr).
>
>
> > How you do this will depend on your system first not LibO
> > and the actual keyboard, language and brand. What operating system
> > and language are you using, and what keyboard setting is defined?
> >  
>
> Manjaro and I use a standard Swedish keyboard.
>
>
> > AltGr is controlled by your system KEYBOARD setting. Technically
> > they are called LEVEL 3 and LEVEL 4 (AltGr and SHIFT-ALtGr). Level
> > 1 and 2 are Lowercase and Shift. The settings depend on your
> > keyboard, language and the use of Keyboard-OPTIONS. The keyboard
> > input is then handed over to the application, in this case
> > LibreOffice.
>
> Yes, but can you then explain why it works in most other
> applications? It works perfectly in all of the text editors I tried
> so far, for instance. There are some difficulties with some web
> browsers, though. Firefox is the one that works best in this aspect.
>
> >
> > For example on my Keyboard set to English (UK) international, many
> > of the European accents, are set using the AltGr, for example ç é á
> > Ç É Á and € (the latter is dependant on the option settings).
> >  
>
> Yes, but you can't type with your arrow keys. I can. Except not in
> LibreOffice. Here are what's on AltGr+<arrow keys> and
> AltGr+Shift+<arrow
> keys>: ←↑↓→ ⬄↹↔⇨  
> When using AltGr+<arrowkey|enter|tab|insert|delete|home|end|page
> up|page
> down>, LibreOffice seems to ignore AltGr completely, but not when
> down>using for  
> instance AltGr+c which types a ℃ character.
>
> So if the problem is in my system, why does it work in some
> applications? It shouldn't work at all then, should it?
> As I said, it SEEMS like LibreOffice ignores AltGr if it's not
> combined with a key that normally types some kind of character.

Ah, this is the first time that you made it clear that the problematic
behaviour is specific to LO and not to the same keys in other
applications. (at least, the first time you made it clear enough for me
to understand).

What output does xev give when you press those keys with the various
shift configurations?

> > I also have American-International,  Irish, German(Switzerland) as
> > alternative keyboard settings to test different settings for LibO,
> > oh and French(French).  They are controlled by the system.
>
> Then I would appreciate very much if somebody would help me finding
> out what's wrong with my layout. I'll share my configurations to
> everyone who asks for it. Not asking anyone to help with that, just
> saying I would appreciate it.
> Thanks for replying. ☺
>
> Kind regards
>
> Johnny Rosenberg


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Peter Maunder Peter Maunder
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Re: AltGr functionality + Swedish Keyboard

In reply to this post by Peter Maunder
Greetings,I have attached a copy of the Swedish Keyboard that I have on my
Linux+Mint Mate system after I added Swedish to my system. The four
characters on each keyboard are the standard Lowercase and Uppercase on the
left hand side and the AltGr Lowercase and AltGr Uppercase on the right hand
side. When you use LibreOffice and other applications that follow normal
protocols those are the keys and characters you find. Note, that the AltGr
is a separate key, and not a right hand duplicate of the left Alt key. If
you are using the Alt key for your own use you should use the left hand Alt
key.However, the keyboard command on your system will allow to to change the
behaviour of the keyboard from the operating system default, but tread
carefully if you change this.  
<http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/file/t483502/Swedish-Keyboard.jpg>



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