Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

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M. Fioretti M. Fioretti
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Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

Hi folks,

maybe this is a very stupid question or just a very naive one, but I
assure you that it is in good faith. Is this decision a surprise for
anybody?

Me, I've been seriously asking myself since september 28, every time I
saw some of the TDF founders posting around with an @openoffice.org
address or signature:

how can this guy still use this "hat" in public? Why is Oracle
allowing it?

What TDF did is basically "we can't tolerate what Sun and then ORacle
did, so we are now finally doing things as they ought to be"

I'm not defending sun/oracle. But I'm reading surprised reactions and
I really don't understand how there could have been any surprise. AM I
missing something ?

Marco

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Gianluca Turconi-3 Gianluca Turconi-3
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In data 17 ottobre 2010 alle ore 16:42:58, M. Fioretti  
<[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> I'm not defending sun/oracle. But I'm reading surprised reactions and
> I really don't understand how there could have been any surprise. AM I
> missing something ?

As far as the attitude of Oracle concerns, I'm not surprised at all. It's  
a typical corporate attitude. Period.

About the methods of expression of this attitude, well, maybe they are,  
ehm, rude.

IMO, it's just a corporation acting as such and defending their assets in  
a bit harsh way.

What's next? Sueing?

Uhm... not a "community" approach. :(
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bedipp bedipp
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In reply to this post by M. Fioretti
Hi Marco, *

M. Fioretti schrieb:

> Hi folks,
>
> maybe this is a very stupid question or just a very naive one, but I
> assure you that it is in good faith. Is this decision a surprise for
> anybody?
>
> Me, I've been seriously asking myself since september 28, every time I
> saw some of the TDF founders posting around with an @openoffice.org
> address or signature:
>
> how can this guy still use this "hat" in public? Why is Oracle
> allowing it?

As Oracle is part of the OpenOffice.org community, it should be bound to
the rules established (mainly by Sun Microsystems employees) for the
community: initiate votes to remove people they think not to represent
the community's will.

If they don't, I can't see how they want to speak for the community.

Oracle is trademark holder and contributor of the main part of the code
for OpenOffice.org. But if they behave as owner of the community public
reaction will be even more non-ambiguous than now.

Best regards

Bernhard

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In reply to this post by M. Fioretti
M. Fioretti wrote:

> What TDF did is basically "we can't tolerate what Sun and then Oracle
> did, so we are now finally doing things as they ought to be".

I think that here there is a basic misunderstanding.

We have said that we thank Sun and Oracle for what they did so far, but
we see a brighter future for OOo under an independent organization. And
we would like to see Oracle in the same independent organization as an
equal member.

Naif. Maybe.

I can only speak for myself, but I am still supporting OOo as I have
done during the last seven years. I am currently preparing PLIO slides
for the upcoming LinuxDay, covering OOo 3.3.

I have commented about OOo with journalists, who don't see any conflict
of interest if they have to ask questions about OOo, TDF and LibO to the
same person (maybe because they know my integrity).

Of course, Oracle is free to apply corporate laws to a community, and
the community is free to develop an independent judgement based on
Oracle's behaviour.

We will never issue a negative judgement on Sun and Oracle, and we are
ready to sit around a table to discuss how to cooperate during the next
decade.

It would be nice if our emails - mine was sent on Tuesday in response to
my "resignment" decided by an Oracle employee - are answered in due time.

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Italo Vignoli
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AG AG
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In reply to this post by bedipp
On 17/10/10 16:20, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

<snip>
> Oracle is trademark holder and contributor of the main part of the
> code for OpenOffice.org. But if they behave as owner of the community
> public reaction will be even more non-ambiguous than now.

So what are the legal implications of all of this then?  If Oracle now
own the code base, are we likely to see Oracle enact a version of SCO's
attempt to claim ownership of the GNU/Linux code base [1]
retrospectively, this time directed against TDF and LibO?

While the community is clearly important, most (new) users of LibO are
less likely to be informed about the community, and many may not even
care one way or another, having elected to use the software.

AG

[1] e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO-Linux_controversies

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Gianluca Turconi-3 Gianluca Turconi-3
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In data 17 ottobre 2010 alle ore 18:32:33, AG  
<[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> So what are the legal implications of all of this then?  If Oracle now  
> own the code base, are we likely to see Oracle enact a version of SCO's  
> attempt to claim ownership of the GNU/Linux code base [1]  
> retrospectively, this time directed against TDF and LibO?

Oracle owns the copyright of the code base, but publicly licensed it (or a  
large part of it) under LGPL.

As far as future versions of LibO will be released under LGPL nobody  
should reasonably be sued.

However, the international legal situation is complex like, always AFAIK,  
the real legal status of the *whole* code base that, indeed, is rather  
variegated, legally speaking.

I'm sure this is a main concern and priority of the TDF founders.
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Simos Xenitellis Simos Xenitellis
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In reply to this post by italovignoli
On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Italo Vignoli <[hidden email]> wrote:

...snip...

> It would be nice if our emails - mine was sent on Tuesday in response to
> my "resignment" decided by an Oracle employee - are answered in due time.
>

I think you mentioned the 'resignment' several times, however it is
good to explain
what actually happened. In English you would not use 'resignment'.

1. Did an Oracle employee 'sack' you? Did they tell you that you are
now not part of the council anymore?
2. Was some decision taken that forced you to resign?
3. Did an Oracle employee ask you (politely or not) to resign and you
just resigned?

Simos

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

Simos Xenitellis wrote:

> I think you mentioned the 'resignment' several times, however it is
> good to explain
> what actually happened. In English you would not use 'resignment'.
>
> 1. Did an Oracle employee 'sack' you? Did they tell you that you are
> now not part of the council anymore?
> 2. Was some decision taken that forced you to resign?
> 3. Did an Oracle employee ask you (politely or not) to resign and you
> just resigned?

Being a volunteer, I cannot be "sacked". This is the reason why I have
intentionally used "resigned" (which I know is not appropriated, but
gives a fairly good idea of what has happened).

I was not a member of the community council, but I was nominated by the
community council to be a community budget approver (being the budget
made by donations to the community).

The Oracle gentleman who has "resigned" me (again, being a volunteer I
cannot be sacked as I am not losing any job, so I will not use the term
sack), is the treasurer in charge of managing, but not approving, the
community budget.

This gentleman has sent me an email where he tells me that he replaces
me with himself, not being himself nominated by the community nor voted
by the community.

According to the rules set by the community, I could only be removed by
the community council (because I was unavailable or I was behaving in an
unappropriate way, but I did not behave at all as I have avoided
handling budgets since September 28) or I could resign.

Summarizing, I have been "resigned" because the only way I could leave
that position is by resigning, but unfortunately my letter has been
written by someone else.

I hope this explains the situation.

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Italo Vignoli
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Ramon Sole Ramon Sole
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Re: Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

Hi *,

I feel same people can't be ruling OOo and TDF. And I see a
clear Conflict of Interest for people who has responsibilities in OOo
and chose to have responsabilities in the TDF.

Both communities will be able to collaborate in tons of things, but the
project leaders can't share responsabilities in both projects. If so,
why to have two Communities?

You can't fork a open source project and keep your responsabilities in
the original one! It's atonishing just trying to do it.

Best Greetings,

Ra

Italo Vignoli wrote:

> Simos Xenitellis wrote:
>
>> I think you mentioned the 'resignment' several times, however it is
>> good to explain
>> what actually happened. In English you would not use 'resignment'.
>>
>> 1. Did an Oracle employee 'sack' you? Did they tell you that you are
>> now not part of the council anymore?
>> 2. Was some decision taken that forced you to resign?
>> 3. Did an Oracle employee ask you (politely or not) to resign and you
>> just resigned?
>
> Being a volunteer, I cannot be "sacked". This is the reason why I have
> intentionally used "resigned" (which I know is not appropriated, but
> gives a fairly good idea of what has happened).
>
> I was not a member of the community council, but I was nominated by the
> community council to be a community budget approver (being the budget
> made by donations to the community).
>
> The Oracle gentleman who has "resigned" me (again, being a volunteer I
> cannot be sacked as I am not losing any job, so I will not use the term
> sack), is the treasurer in charge of managing, but not approving, the
> community budget.
>
> This gentleman has sent me an email where he tells me that he replaces
> me with himself, not being himself nominated by the community nor voted
> by the community.
>
> According to the rules set by the community, I could only be removed by
> the community council (because I was unavailable or I was behaving in an
> unappropriate way, but I did not behave at all as I have avoided
> handling budgets since September 28) or I could resign.
>
> Summarizing, I have been "resigned" because the only way I could leave
> that position is by resigning, but unfortunately my letter has been
> written by someone else.
>
> I hope this explains the situation.
>

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M. Fioretti M. Fioretti
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 04:48:23 AM +0200, Ramon Sole
([hidden email]) wrote:

> Both communities will be able to collaborate in tons of things, but
> the project leaders can't share responsabilities in both projects.
> If so, why to have two Communities?  You can't fork a open source
> project and keep your responsabilities in the original one!  It's
> astonishing just trying to do it.

Thanks Ramon. You've summed up better than I could the two reasons that
(without me being even completely aware of them) made me ask the
question that started this thread.

I was surprised seeing people who started TDF continuing to keep their
OOo hats (1). And much more surprised to see all these "surprised"
reactions to Oracle's "resignment" actions. I mean, I would have said
that if there's anything surprising in that is ONLY the fact that it
took so long. I'd assume that it took Oracle managers no more than 20
seconds after the initial TDF announcement to decide they wanted to do
it, and Oracle lawyers much less than 20 days to decide if they could
get away with it.

I really don't know if there are other people today that still have
any official role in both communities, OOo and TDF (or that have
official roles only in OOo but have formally, publicly approved
TDF). But if there are such people, I'm very interested to hear if
they plan to resign before being "resigned", and above all their
general opinion about what Ramon said and on how to handle the
OOo/Oracle <-> LibO/TDF relation in the future.

         thanks,
         M. Fioretti
         http://stop.zona-m.net

(1) the intrinsical *validity* of the reasons that caused the creation
of TDF are a totally separate issue, at least for me!



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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

> ... and above all their
> general opinion about what Ramon said and on how to handle the
> OOo/Oracle <-> LibO/TDF relation in the future.
>

Hello Mr. Fioretti,

It is my firm and deep belief that, given my experiences and
interactions, as limited as they may be in some cases, with all of those
_actively_ involved in the development, promotion and support of these
software packages having so much more in common with regards to vision
of purpose, as opposed to, the differences in vision of implementation
process, that it is and will be, only a small matter of time before the
groups are pursuing mutually beneficial activities once again.

Sincerely,

Drew Jensen









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Document Foundation Mail Archives
yorick yorick
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In reply to this post by M. Fioretti
On Monday 18 Oct 2010 16:58:40 M. Fioretti wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 04:48:23 AM +0200, Ramon Sole
>
> ([hidden email]) wrote:
> > Both communities will be able to collaborate in tons of things, but
> > the project leaders can't share responsabilities in both projects.
> > If so, why to have two Communities?  You can't fork a open source
> > project and keep your responsabilities in the original one!  It's
> > astonishing just trying to do it.
>
> Thanks Ramon. You've summed up better than I could the two reasons that
> (without me being even completely aware of them) made me ask the
> question that started this thread.
>
> I was surprised seeing people who started TDF continuing to keep their
> OOo hats (1). And much more surprised to see all these "surprised"
> reactions to Oracle's "resignment" actions. I mean, I would have said
> that if there's anything surprising in that is ONLY the fact that it
> took so long. I'd assume that it took Oracle managers no more than 20
> seconds after the initial TDF announcement to decide they wanted to do
> it, and Oracle lawyers much less than 20 days to decide if they could
> get away with it.
>
> I really don't know if there are other people today that still have
> any official role in both communities, OOo and TDF (or that have
> official roles only in OOo but have formally, publicly approved
> TDF). But if there are such people, I'm very interested to hear if
> they plan to resign before being "resigned", and above all their
> general opinion about what Ramon said and on how to handle the
> OOo/Oracle <-> LibO/TDF relation in the future.
>
> thanks,
> M. Fioretti
> http://stop.zona-m.net
>
> (1) the intrinsical *validity* of the reasons that caused the creation
> of TDF are a totally separate issue, at least for me!

I fully support the ideals of a foundation and have since day one 20001013

I hope that OOo and Oracle become part of the Foundation

However, for the foreseeable future and barring any dramatic actions that make
it untenable, I will remain firmly part of the OOo team and continue to
promote OOo first and foremost, if people ask, and they have,  I tell them all
I know, but I do it as a OOo's representative in NZ and I make that clear.

To me a fork is a good thing, it allows choice, it ensures the longevity of
the OOo code and any publicity is good publicity :)

Cheers
GL

--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.

INGOTs Assessor Trainer
(International Grades in Open Technologies)
www.theingots.org

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In reply to this post by drewjensen
Hello all,

thank you for opening this thread. It is not in the intention of anyone
-I don't speak officially for the Foundation in this mail- to sit in
both projects. It would give a very bad signal, I think, a signal that
we either don't believe in LibO and that we want to occupy seats just
for the sake of it. So that's not going to happen, rest assured of
that: but it's not even been a month since we've gone out in public,
remember? :-) Just be patient.

On the other hand, I and others do not tolerate being "fired" by
Oracle. Resigning is one thing, being kicked out is another one.
Resigning is a logical consequence of our actions that will actually
happen soon, being kicked out and accepting it means we acknowledge that
Oracle has the right of life and death over the OOo community. Good
thing we went to open the Document Foundation then!

Cheers,

Charles.


Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:02:01 -0400,
Drew Jensen <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> > ... and above all their
> > general opinion about what Ramon said and on how to handle the
> > OOo/Oracle <-> LibO/TDF relation in the future.
> >
>
> Hello Mr. Fioretti,
>
> It is my firm and deep belief that, given my experiences and
> interactions, as limited as they may be in some cases, with all of
> those _actively_ involved in the development, promotion and support
> of these software packages having so much more in common with regards
> to vision of purpose, as opposed to, the differences in vision of
> implementation process, that it is and will be, only a small matter
> of time before the groups are pursuing mutually beneficial activities
> once again.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Drew Jensen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



--
Charles-H. Schulz
Membre du Comité exécutif
The Document Foundation.

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M. Fioretti M. Fioretti
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:00:56 PM +0200, Charles-H. Schulz
([hidden email]) wrote:

> On the other hand, I and others do not tolerate being "fired" by
> Oracle. Resigning is one thing, being kicked out is another one.
> Resigning is a logical consequence of our actions that will actually
> happen soon, being kicked out and accepting it means we acknowledge
> that Oracle has the right of life and death over the OOo
> community. Good thing we went to open the Document Foundation then!

Charles,

reading stuff like this doesn't make me feel like I'm being treated
like an adult.

Here's what I actually read in the paragraph I quoted:

       You will not acknowledge that you won't accept anymore the fact
       that Oracle has right of life and death over the OOo community
       now, by "being kicked out and accepting it". Because you've
       already acknowledged that you wouldn't accept that right in the
       very moment when you announced TDF, by creating it.

       You wanted since the beginning Oracle to fire you, to prove
       that they are indeed tyrants (which they proved quite well,
       IMHO)

       And this is the only reason why such a logical consequence of
       your action as resigning didn't happen simultaneously to the
       announcement of TDF. I honestly can't imagine any other
       obstacle.

If I completely misunderstood or missed something, please explain. In
any case, as far as I am concerned none of the above means that
creating TDF was wrong or that I approve what Oracle did. I am just
saying that this side of the whole messy matter doesn't seem to have
been managed properly, and that statements like the one above are,
uhm, a bit weak?

     Marco

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

Hello Marco,

Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:14 +0200,
"M. Fioretti" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:00:56 PM +0200, Charles-H. Schulz
> ([hidden email]) wrote:
>
> > On the other hand, I and others do not tolerate being "fired" by
> > Oracle. Resigning is one thing, being kicked out is another one.
> > Resigning is a logical consequence of our actions that will actually
> > happen soon, being kicked out and accepting it means we acknowledge
> > that Oracle has the right of life and death over the OOo
> > community. Good thing we went to open the Document Foundation then!
>
> Charles,
>
> reading stuff like this doesn't make me feel like I'm being treated
> like an adult.
>
> Here's what I actually read in the paragraph I quoted:
>
>        You will not acknowledge that you won't accept anymore the fact
>        that Oracle has right of life and death over the OOo community
>        now, by "being kicked out and accepting it". Because you've
>        already acknowledged that you wouldn't accept that right in the
>        very moment when you announced TDF, by creating it.
>
>        You wanted since the beginning Oracle to fire you, to prove
>        that they are indeed tyrants (which they proved quite well,
>        IMHO)
>
>        And this is the only reason why such a logical consequence of
>        your action as resigning didn't happen simultaneously to the
>        announcement of TDF. I honestly can't imagine any other
>        obstacle.
>
> If I completely misunderstood or missed something, please explain. In
> any case, as far as I am concerned none of the above means that
> creating TDF was wrong or that I approve what Oracle did. I am just
> saying that this side of the whole messy matter doesn't seem to have
> been managed properly, and that statements like the one above are,
> uhm, a bit weak?

What I may have not written clearly, is 2 things:
-first and foremost we always kept the door open for Oracle. If we had
wanted to do a fork, we would have indeed resigned almost on the same
day I think. Now the behaviour of Oracle being what it is, the
situation is being clarified, so to speak.
-in French we say that there is "l'art et la manière". You can send me
a private message, as an Oracle employee, asking me : "so Charles, when
are you guys going away?" but if you send a public message kicking us
out on vague grounds, ignoring our very own guidelines, that's very
different.

So of course, I'm not trying to say that I'm surprised that such
consequences of our action happen, and I was not trying to be
disingenuous or not treating you like an adult in my message. But what
I'm saying is that we were surprised by the tone, the way, the
brutality of Oracle's answer, which seems unnecessary, and too early.
We have not even started to "talk" and we're being thrown out? Again,
our doors are open, but Oracle, through that move, does not seem to be
interested and is behaving in a rude and violent way.
Also of interest: I am  very surprised that Oracle, or rather the
Oracle's employees contributing to OOo, are chasing us out as if we
were 5 idiots. Let's not talk numbers here, but let's just say that it
would be a conservative estimate if I said that 80 percent of the NLC
and the QA project (and I'm not talking about the others) are moving to
TDF. So Oracle has either become blind on what's going on on their
mailing lists, bugtrackers and commits or it is effectively saying: we
don't acknowledge that our community is leaving (and yes, there are and
will always be exceptions). That, to me, is a failure, it's a community
"management" failure.

Hope that helps,

Charles.


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Ian-2 Ian-2
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

> we
> don't acknowledge that our community is leaving (and yes, there are and
> will always be exceptions). That, to me, is a failure, it's a community
> "management" failure.

So I guess that puts Louis in a difficult position?

--
Ian


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James Walker James Walker
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

The one thing that has always bugged me is.

How is it any different having LibreOffice and someone being in both
project, and the OracleOffice part.  I mean are they not competing
projects.  Would Oracle not prefer someone to go with there version of
OpenOffice.org and pay them for support on it.

How then can an employee, someone being paid by Oracle, then sit as a member
of the Community Council, or have an active role for the project.

I really see no difference in the two at this time.

Because of these reasons I believe that no one should resign their
OpenOffice.org roles at this time.  Stick to what you have been doing and
see what happens.

I have no intention of putting OpenOffice.org in a negative light.  I have
been a part of the Community in some way or other for 8+ years and have no
reason to do anything negative.

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In reply to this post by Ian-2
Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:29:37 +0100 (BST),
[hidden email] a écrit :

> > we
> > don't acknowledge that our community is leaving (and yes, there are
> > and will always be exceptions). That, to me, is a failure, it's a
> > community "management" failure.
>
> So I guess that puts Louis in a difficult position?
>
He must surely be caught between a rock and a hard place. This being
said, I don't think this attitude stems from him. I believe someone
else is pulling the strings.


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Charles-H. Schulz
Membre du Comité exécutif
The Document Foundation.

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In reply to this post by Ramon Sole
On 2010-10-17 10:48 PM, Ramon Sole wrote:
> Both communities will be able to collaborate in tons of things, but the
> project leaders can't share responsabilities in both projects. If so,
> why to have two Communities?

I don't think this this is correct in the case of OOo - while it is of
course fine for LibO to continue syncing code changes from OOo, since
Oracle is continuing Sun's requirement of copyright assignment etc, it
will be impossible for any LibO code to make it back-stream into the OOo
code base.

Or am I wrong?

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Best regards,

Charles

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Ramon Sole Ramon Sole
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Re: Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
Hello *,

maybe the problem is OOo has the fear that TDF people with
responsabilities in OOo use the OOo resources in favor of TDF?

I'm not talking about Charles, but i.e in the Spanish Communitiy the
Project Leader has closed the subscription to the OOo spanish mailing
lists with the label "Migrating lists to TDF", and you can only easily
subscribe to the TDF lists. What would you do if you were in charge of
the OOo project after such things?
I expect the most of TDF, but we should understand the position of the
OOo leader and other people in Oracle.

And please, guys, let's stop calling the people that didn't decide to
move to TDF the "Oracle bad guys". There's a lot of people in OOo that
doesn't work for Oracle. And I met some of the "Oracle bad guys" during
those years and they're nice guys. Furthermore, some of them are the
true builders of what OpenOffice and even LibreOffice is now. They
deserve, at least, my respect. And they're need as most of us a salary
to live, salary payed before by Sun but now payed by Oracle.

Best Greetings,

Ra

Charles-H. Schulz wrote:

> Hello Marco,
>
> Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:14 +0200,
> "M. Fioretti" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:00:56 PM +0200, Charles-H. Schulz
>> ([hidden email]) wrote:
>>
>>> On the other hand, I and others do not tolerate being "fired" by
>>> Oracle. Resigning is one thing, being kicked out is another one.
>>> Resigning is a logical consequence of our actions that will actually
>>> happen soon, being kicked out and accepting it means we acknowledge
>>> that Oracle has the right of life and death over the OOo
>>> community. Good thing we went to open the Document Foundation then!
>> Charles,
>>
>> reading stuff like this doesn't make me feel like I'm being treated
>> like an adult.
>>
>> Here's what I actually read in the paragraph I quoted:
>>
>>        You will not acknowledge that you won't accept anymore the fact
>>        that Oracle has right of life and death over the OOo community
>>        now, by "being kicked out and accepting it". Because you've
>>        already acknowledged that you wouldn't accept that right in the
>>        very moment when you announced TDF, by creating it.
>>
>>        You wanted since the beginning Oracle to fire you, to prove
>>        that they are indeed tyrants (which they proved quite well,
>>        IMHO)
>>
>>        And this is the only reason why such a logical consequence of
>>        your action as resigning didn't happen simultaneously to the
>>        announcement of TDF. I honestly can't imagine any other
>>        obstacle.
>>
>> If I completely misunderstood or missed something, please explain. In
>> any case, as far as I am concerned none of the above means that
>> creating TDF was wrong or that I approve what Oracle did. I am just
>> saying that this side of the whole messy matter doesn't seem to have
>> been managed properly, and that statements like the one above are,
>> uhm, a bit weak?
>
> What I may have not written clearly, is 2 things:
> -first and foremost we always kept the door open for Oracle. If we had
> wanted to do a fork, we would have indeed resigned almost on the same
> day I think. Now the behaviour of Oracle being what it is, the
> situation is being clarified, so to speak.
> -in French we say that there is "l'art et la manière". You can send me
> a private message, as an Oracle employee, asking me : "so Charles, when
> are you guys going away?" but if you send a public message kicking us
> out on vague grounds, ignoring our very own guidelines, that's very
> different.
>
> So of course, I'm not trying to say that I'm surprised that such
> consequences of our action happen, and I was not trying to be
> disingenuous or not treating you like an adult in my message. But what
> I'm saying is that we were surprised by the tone, the way, the
> brutality of Oracle's answer, which seems unnecessary, and too early.
> We have not even started to "talk" and we're being thrown out? Again,
> our doors are open, but Oracle, through that move, does not seem to be
> interested and is behaving in a rude and violent way.
> Also of interest: I am  very surprised that Oracle, or rather the
> Oracle's employees contributing to OOo, are chasing us out as if we
> were 5 idiots. Let's not talk numbers here, but let's just say that it
> would be a conservative estimate if I said that 80 percent of the NLC
> and the QA project (and I'm not talking about the others) are moving to
> TDF. So Oracle has either become blind on what's going on on their
> mailing lists, bugtrackers and commits or it is effectively saying: we
> don't acknowledge that our community is leaving (and yes, there are and
> will always be exceptions). That, to me, is a failure, it's a community
> "management" failure.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Charles.
>
>

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