Best way to suggest new features ?

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Fabián Rodríguez-3 Fabián Rodríguez-3
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Best way to suggest new features ?

Hi,

I am answering some questions in AskBot and in several occasions some
comments may translate into useful new features.

Where should I suggest someone take such feature requests / suggestions
? UX seems like one place but bug reports may also be faster for some
smaller additions. If there is an existing process for this or any
suggestions on how to best deal with such contributions I'd love to get
fresh information.

Cheers,

Fabian


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Olivier Hallot Olivier Hallot
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

HI

Em 28-02-2012 15:04, Fabian Rodriguez escreveu:

> Hi,
>
> I am answering some questions in AskBot and in several occasions some
> comments may translate into useful new features.
>
> Where should I suggest someone take such feature requests / suggestions
> ? UX seems like one place but bug reports may also be faster for some
> smaller additions. If there is an existing process for this or any
> suggestions on how to best deal with such contributions I'd love to get
> fresh information.

Good question indeed, I use to receive demand directly in this mail address.

May be we should turn this page to get more visibility:

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development#Lists_of_enhancements_and_missing_features

Regards
- --
Olivier Hallot
Founder, Board of Directors Member - The Document Foundation
LibreOffice translation leader for Brazilian Portuguese
+55-21-8822-8812
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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

Hi Olivier

Le 2012-02-28 14:49, Olivier Hallot a écrit :
> Good question indeed, I use to receive demand directly in this mail address.
>
> May be we should turn this page to get more visibility:
>
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development#Lists_of_enhancements_and_missing_features
>
> Regards
> - --
> Olivier Hallot

Is this page really used by the devs? I have never seen this page. Would
it not make more sense to put a feature request as a bug for the devs
and this way there would be a followup on the bugzilla?[1]

IMO, it just seems like such a big job to keep the wiki up to date, and,
if you make it more visible, you can expect a lot more people voting
which would need more work to tally the on-going change of vote count.

If people are so passionate about feature requests, then they could
create and account and join in on the conversation on bugzilla and
perhaps help out?

It just seems that this just adds another layer of complexity that is
really not needed. The bugzilla is easier to work with and is more
direct. Unless I am wrong, many projects use their bugzilla to submit
feature requests and they are "triaged" by someone at some point.

Marc

[1]
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport#How_to_use_the_Bug_Submission_Assistant


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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

Le mardi 28 février 2012 à 16:32 -0500, Marc Paré a écrit :

> Hi Olivier
>
> Le 2012-02-28 14:49, Olivier Hallot a écrit :
> > Good question indeed, I use to receive demand directly in this mail address.
> >
> > May be we should turn this page to get more visibility:
> >
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development#Lists_of_enhancements_and_missing_features
> >
> > Regards
> > - --
> > Olivier Hallot
>
> Is this page really used by the devs? I have never seen this page. Would
> it not make more sense to put a feature request as a bug for the devs
> and this way there would be a followup on the bugzilla?[1]
>
> IMO, it just seems like such a big job to keep the wiki up to date, and,
> if you make it more visible, you can expect a lot more people voting
> which would need more work to tally the on-going change of vote count.
>
> If people are so passionate about feature requests, then they could
> create and account and join in on the conversation on bugzilla and
> perhaps help out?
>
> It just seems that this just adds another layer of complexity that is
> really not needed. The bugzilla is easier to work with and is more
> direct. Unless I am wrong, many projects use their bugzilla to submit
> feature requests and they are "triaged" by someone at some point.


+1. Another way that may still happen on the wiki is to draft a full
specification. Basically if we write something like "you should improve
the background look behind the page on Writer", it does not mean
anything. You need to explain that this component inside Writer ought to
be changed in this or that way and provide an actual and practical
suggestion. Otherwise devs will think they don't have enough guidance or
details to code the said feature.

But I concur with Marc, Bugzilla is your friend :-)

Best,

Charles.

>
> Marc
>
> [1]
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport#How_to_use_the_Bug_Submission_Assistant
>
>


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Charles-H. Schulz
Co-Founder & Director,
The Document Foundation.


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Fabián Rodríguez-3 Fabián Rodríguez-3
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

On 12-02-29 02:46 AM, Charles-H.Schulz wrote:

> Le mardi 28 février 2012 à 16:32 -0500, Marc Paré a écrit :
>> Hi Olivier
>>
>> Le 2012-02-28 14:49, Olivier Hallot a écrit :
>>> Good question indeed, I use to receive demand directly in this mail address.
>>>
>>> May be we should turn this page to get more visibility:
>>>
>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development#Lists_of_enhancements_and_missing_features
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> - --
>>> Olivier Hallot
>> Is this page really used by the devs? I have never seen this page. Would
>> it not make more sense to put a feature request as a bug for the devs
>> and this way there would be a followup on the bugzilla?[1]

NO! I know for a fact devs would hate seeing a million feature requests
in the bug reports, and bugzilla is really English-only. This would
further exclude contribution in other languages.

We could have a staging zone for such requests, and have people vote on
such. Sound familiar ? Read on...

> [...]
> +1. Another way that may still happen on the wiki is to draft a full
> specification. Basically if we write something like "you should
> improve the background look behind the page on Writer", it does not
> mean anything. You need to explain that this component inside Writer
> ought to be changed in this or that way and provide an actual and
> practical suggestion. Otherwise devs will think they don't have enough
> guidance or details to code the said feature. But I concur with Marc,
> Bugzilla is your friend :-) Best, Charles.
>>

We could just as well just agree on a tag "Feature Request" and also
"Possible Bug" so we can easily identify such content in AskBot.

AskBot already has voting and karma, so every month or every once in a
while the feature requests or bugs that have the most votes would then
get discussion/implementation/blueprint time.

Just a thought.

F.



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Fabián Rodríguez-3 Fabián Rodríguez-3
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
On 12-02-29 02:46 AM, Charles-H.Schulz wrote:
> Le mardi 28 février 2012 à 16:32 -0500, Marc Paré a écrit :
>> Hi Olivier
>>
>> Le 2012-02-28 14:49, Olivier Hallot a écrit :
>>
[...]

Heh :) :

http://ask.libreoffice.org/question/63/ask-for-features-new-idea

F.


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

Le 2012-02-29 11:36, Fabian Rodriguez a écrit :

> On 12-02-29 02:46 AM, Charles-H.Schulz wrote:
>> Le mardi 28 février 2012 à 16:32 -0500, Marc Paré a écrit :
>>> Hi Olivier
>>>
>>> Le 2012-02-28 14:49, Olivier Hallot a écrit :
>>>
> [...]
>
> Heh :) :
>
> http://ask.libreoffice.org/question/63/ask-for-features-new-idea
>
> F.
>
>
The question here though is, will the devs actually visit these pages
often?

Perhaps, this discussion should really be taken up on the dev list with
devs only and you (the devs) tell us the way that you would prefer to
have suggestions funnelled back to you. We could then refine the process
after we know as to which format the devs would like to receive the
feature requests.

IMO, I prefer the method we now have of someone proposing a
feature/enhancement on the discussion list where we can all have a
discussion about it and then someone adding it to the bugzilla once it
has been refined. I don't see much value with people proposing features
and the masses ranking it up or down with little discussion. But this is
only my opinion.

Ultimately, whether a feature is accepted or not usually rests on
whether a dev will actually adopt it. Our system of meritocracy pretty
well drives the end process.

This is also a recurring topic on this list, marketing and website
lists. It would be nice if the process could be defined and "wikified".

Cheers,

Marc



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Werner F. Bruhin Werner F. Bruhin
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

On 01/03/2012 01:18, Marc Paré wrote:

> Le 2012-02-29 11:36, Fabian Rodriguez a écrit :
>> On 12-02-29 02:46 AM, Charles-H.Schulz wrote:
>>> Le mardi 28 février 2012 à 16:32 -0500, Marc Paré a écrit :
>>>> Hi Olivier
>>>>
>>>> Le 2012-02-28 14:49, Olivier Hallot a écrit :
>>>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Heh :) :
>>
>> http://ask.libreoffice.org/question/63/ask-for-features-new-idea
>>
>> F.
>>
>>
> The question here though is, will the devs actually visit these pages
> often?
>
> Perhaps, this discussion should really be taken up on the dev list
> with devs only and you (the devs) tell us the way that you would
> prefer to have suggestions funnelled back to you. We could then refine
> the process after we know as to which format the devs would like to
> receive the feature requests.
>
> IMO, I prefer the method we now have of someone proposing a
> feature/enhancement on the discussion list where we can all have a
> discussion about it and then someone adding it to the bugzilla once it
> has been refined. I don't see much value with people proposing
> features and the masses ranking it up or down with little discussion.
> But this is only my opinion.
+1.

The discussion on the list should get to a point where the the
feature/enhancement is well defined and then have it in bugzilla to
track it and who knows even have a suggested patch attached:-) .

Werenr

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

Hi Werner, hi Marc, Fabian, Charles, Oliver, ... all :-)

Am Donnerstag, den 01.03.2012, 09:18 +0100 schrieb Werner F. Bruhin:

> On 01/03/2012 01:18, Marc Paré wrote:
> > Le 2012-02-29 11:36, Fabian Rodriguez a écrit :
> >> On 12-02-29 02:46 AM, Charles-H.Schulz wrote:
> >>> Le mardi 28 février 2012 à 16:32 -0500, Marc Paré a écrit :
> >>>> Le 2012-02-28 14:49, Olivier Hallot a écrit :
> >>>>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> http://ask.libreoffice.org/question/63/ask-for-features-new-idea
> >>
> > The question here though is, will the devs actually visit these pages
> > often?
> >
> > Perhaps, this discussion should really be taken up on the dev list
> > with devs only and you (the devs) tell us the way that you would
> > prefer to have suggestions funnelled back to you. We could then refine
> > the process after we know as to which format the devs would like to
> > receive the feature requests.

Well, developers should at least provide insight if something is
technically not manageable ... but the funny thing is, that an idea pool
could provide some inspiration to them - like the EasyHacks do today ...

> > IMO, I prefer the method we now have of someone proposing a
> > feature/enhancement on the discussion list where we can all have a
> > discussion about it and then someone adding it to the bugzilla once it
> > has been refined. I don't see much value with people proposing
> > features and the masses ranking it up or down with little discussion.
> > But this is only my opinion.
> +1.

Discussions are absolutely required when it comes to a certain point,
but sometimes it would already help to know what helps (more) "normal"
users most. And that usually doesn't happen on mailing lists, nor can it
be measured easily.

However, Marc asked for some "wiki-fication" ... here is a page I've
started some years ago. It basically collects requirements and some
proposals, although outdated, maybe helpful:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org_Idea_Handling

By the way, if somebody wants to extract parts of the page, then feel
free (speaking of my contributions) ;-)

Cheers,
Christoph


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

Hi Christoph

Le 2012-03-01 12:37, Christoph Noack a écrit :

> Well, developers should at least provide insight if something is
> technically not manageable ... but the funny thing is, that an idea pool
> could provide some inspiration to them - like the EasyHacks do today ...
>
>>> >  >  IMO, I prefer the method we now have of someone proposing a
>>> >  >  feature/enhancement on the discussion list where we can all have a
>>> >  >  discussion about it and then someone adding it to the bugzilla once it
>>> >  >  has been refined. I don't see much value with people proposing
>>> >  >  features and the masses ranking it up or down with little discussion.
>>> >  >  But this is only my opinion.
>> >  +1.
> Discussions are absolutely required when it comes to a certain point,
> but sometimes it would already help to know what helps (more) "normal"
> users most. And that usually doesn't happen on mailing lists, nor can it
> be measured easily.
>
> However, Marc asked for some "wiki-fication" ... here is a page I've
> started some years ago. It basically collects requirements and some
> proposals, although outdated, maybe helpful:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org_Idea_Handling
>
> By the way, if somebody wants to extract parts of the page, then feel
> free (speaking of my contributions);-)
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph

Thanks for the wiki page reference. It is nice to read that there was
already some movement at that time ... I am not really concerned at how
the ideas are voiced but more with how it is reported back to the devs.
I still think that it would be more efficient for all if the devs told
us their preference as to how they would like to have these reported to
them. I am not sure if devs would like to lurk even more discussion
groups dealing with ideas. If we knew then we could organize accordingly.

Cheers

Marc


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Fabián Rodríguez-3 Fabián Rodríguez-3
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

In reply to this post by marcpare4
On 12-02-29 07:18 PM, Marc Paré wrote:

> Le 2012-02-29 11:36, Fabian Rodriguez a écrit :
>> On 12-02-29 02:46 AM, Charles-H.Schulz wrote:
>>> Le mardi 28 février 2012 à 16:32 -0500, Marc Paré a écrit :
>>>> Hi Olivier
>>>>
>>>> Le 2012-02-28 14:49, Olivier Hallot a écrit :
>>>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Heh :) :
>>
>> http://ask.libreoffice.org/question/63/ask-for-features-new-idea
>>
>> F.
>>
>>
> The question here though is, will the devs actually visit these pages
> often?
>

It would be really nice if they did. Several kernel devs hang out on
Ubuntu's Q&A site, resulting in very detailed, accurate replies - and
the corresponding karma reward.

The current seperation wall (in part implemented by the mailing lists)
between regular users and devs should not be driven to a bug tracker.

> Perhaps, this discussion should really be taken up on the dev list
> with devs only and you (the devs) tell us the way that you would
> prefer to have suggestions funnelled back to you. We could then refine
> the process after we know as to which format the devs would like to
> receive the feature requests.
>
> IMO, I prefer the method we now have of someone proposing a
> feature/enhancement on the discussion list where we can all have a
> discussion about it and then someone adding it to the bugzilla once it
> has been refined. I don't see much value with people proposing
> features and the masses ranking it up or down with little discussion.
> But this is only my opinion.

The discussion doesn't have to go away, quite the opposite. In fact in
some questions I've already suggested to bring some topics to the UX
mailing list. Here's an example:
http://ask.libreoffice.org/question/387/how-can-i-get-a-split-view-of-a-document-like-in

>
> Ultimately, whether a feature is accepted or not usually rests on
> whether a dev will actually adopt it. Our system of meritocracy pretty
> well drives the end process.
>
> This is also a recurring topic on this list, marketing and website
> lists. It would be nice if the process could be defined and "wikified".

You're mixing up two things here. A dev can adopt a feature (or even
implement a feature he wants) directly, but it rests on the community to
accept it, not the other way around.

Normally a feature would go through such due process, in some cases it
may be rejected even if several devs line up to implement it.

F.



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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Best way to suggest new features ?

Fabian Rodriguez wrote
You're mixing up two things here. A dev can adopt a feature (or even
implement a feature he wants) directly, but it rests on the community to
accept it, not the other way around.

Normally a feature would go through such due process, in some cases it
may be rejected even if several devs line up to implement it.
I think you are confusing "community-driven" with democratic as I did.
Get yourself a large cup of tea and read this topic
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/The-Floppy-icon-and-meritocracy-tp3725399p3725399.html

Regards,
Pedro