Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

Hi all,

Ape wrote:
>  I wrote that there is no icon in the error message
> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46777) and suggest solutions.

I took a look at the bug you link to and the screenshot you provide of
your icons (sadly, I can't open most of them in EOG).
So, first: thanks for working on our branding!

Here are some comments regarding your bug report,

A.1 "Chart" is a module that can be used from within any of the main
LibO applications (except Base). There is no way to save (currently)
to save a chart as an independent file (you can save as a PDF or an
image, but then you lose lots of information). IMHO, the current icon
doesn't need to be changed, because it's only an application icon so
far, not an actual MIME type icon.

A.2 I guess you're right, master document are always be opened by
Writer, so I tend to agree with the choice of a blue document border.
(Is there something I am overlooking?)

A.3 This one's tricky, because we're using the same icons for the
individual applications and for MIME types associated with them. I
believe the long-term strategy is to de-emphasise the applications and
focus more on documents (hence, The Document Foundation). If this icon
were used only for Writer/Web, then yes, it should have a blue border.
But most LibO apps can save to HTML and I believe we might need this
icon mostly as an MIME type. Hence, having different icons for
Writer/Web and for HTML might be a good idea for the future. For now,
I have to disagree with you.

A.4 I don't agree with this, either. While LibO's support for foreign
file formats is limited and will probably remain somewhat limited
(even though the developers are working pretty hard to get thigns into
a usable state), to users it should not matter much if they are
opening a DOC or an ODT – it will open in the same application and
enable them to do the same things.

A.5 You're right, we need a generic template icon which should also be
used for all these purposes, so yes, 27.ico is what we need.

B I believe we're doing this exactly as Microsoft advises us to:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa511280.aspx#size
Can you check what Windows does when we hand it a 96*96 icon additionally?

C I assume you mean the icons used for "New" element in the standard
toolbar? I hate that as much as you, but it's actually quite tricky to
fix as the icons don't have logical names at all and seemingly lay
around in semi-random places (see the other thread). (Also, this is
the one places where we currently require (for reasons unknown to me)
26*26 icons in all themes.)

D Hm. What icon do you mean? The drawing template icon does seem to
have a spiral binding.


Finally: How about editing the SVG that we have for our icons? That
should make the workflow a lot better than just editing the resulting
bitmaps.
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d4/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons-pre_final.svg


Regards,

Astron.

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ape ape
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Re: Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

Hi Astron,

A.1 I agree, but the "Chart" had a green frame in the OpenOffice.org_Galaxy_ver.3.0.

A.3 I'll be back to the provost embodiment, it is easy to do.

A.4 I think you're wrong. Two files (ODT and DOC, ODG and VSD, ODS and XLS etc) have the same name. They will be denoted by the same symbol. You can not define the eyes, "who is who," if Windows Explorer is turned off "Hide extensions for known file types" (see attachment). LibreOffice uses in its "Explorer" different *.png (images.zip) to ODF\MSO files and do not have this problem.

B. Windows_NT-6.x Explorer reduces itself on the desktop icon 256*256 to a size 96*96, if you are using the classic (windows) theme. Icons 256*256 applications LibreOffice blurred (see attachment). This led me to modify these figures.

D. "Template{all}_16*16" has lost a spiral after:
 - svg-resource 16*16 has been exported to raster (file_16.png);
 - png-files color was reduced to 256 colors (8 bits).

P.S. I am a student of The Inscape. GIMP is my main instrument. Sorry.
     This attachment does not attach, but here it is:

Regards, ape
Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

Hi Ape,

I just saw this conversation and like to jump in ... I was one of the
guys who created the icons initially. Maybe I can shed some light on the
decisions. By the way, I don't know whether anyone mentioned that page:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons

There, you find lots of information why we used this or that ...

Am Donnerstag, den 01.03.2012, 08:27 -0800 schrieb ape:
> Hi Astron,
>
> A.1 I agree, but the "Chart" had a green frame in the
> OpenOffice.org_Galaxy_ver.3.0.

Also targets A.2, A.3.

The basic decision we've made was to only highlight the most essential
document types and that led to only few colored application icons. The
main goal is to avoid too much mixture of color (frame) and additional
icons (the small graphic inside). A sub-goal is to establish the native
TDF / LibreOffice symbol - for many people TDF and LibreOffice are still
inexistent or very new ;-)

Consequently, we do only serve 5 icons with colored frames to our users.

For all other document types, icons with black borders are used. For
example, also the HTML document icon features a black border - although
it is opened in Writer. We also use a black border for the Master
Document - because it "only" embeds other ODT documents (and due to the
black border, Master Document icons and Writer Document icons can be
easily distinguished when using very small icons sizes).

Concerning the differentiation between document icon and application
icon - there is none, because we estimated that it doesn't add any
value. People start the application in a Start or Applications menu (no
document icons to be seen here) and they mainly use documents when they
browse documents (no applications to be started here). So we help users
to get a straight connection if we avoid any differences ...

Finally, personally I think these assumptions are still valid. But if
the goals changed or the team comes to a different conclusion, then its
surely time to update the icons.

> A.3 I'll be back to the provost embodiment, it is easy to do.
>
> A.4 I think you're wrong. Two files (ODT and DOC, ODG and VSD, ODS and XLS
> etc) have the same name. They will be denoted by the same symbol. You can
> not define the eyes, "who is who," if Windows Explorer is turned off "Hide
> extensions for known file types" (see attachment). LibreOffice uses in its
> "Explorer" different *.png (images.zip) to ODF\MSO files and do not have
> this problem.

Hehe, concerning the last statement, then its a bug ;-)

Seriously, nobody had the time to provide numerous icons for the same
document type ... it might not only happen to MS Word files, but all
other Text related documents LibreOffice is able to handle (Works, Word
Pro, WordPerfect, ...). The main alternatives are:
      * use the same icon for LibreOffice and foreign (equivalent)
        document types
      * use one icon for LibreOffice and a different icon for all
        foreign (equivalent) document types
      * use individual icons for all document types

We've decided to go for the most simple solution - provide one icon for
each document type. Because, the more (slightly) different icons you
provide, the harder to remember for the user.

The same is true for A.5 and A.6 (but I might not fully understand these
issues), that we use the simple LibreOffice / TDF icons for all other
places like the QuickStarter icon.

> B. Windows_NT-6.x Explorer reduces itself on the desktop icon 256*256 to a
> size 96*96, if you are using the classic (windows) theme. Icons 256*256
> applications LibreOffice blurred (see attachment). This led me to modify
> these figures.

So, if I get it right, we need 96x96 icons, right?

> D. "Template{all}_16*16" has lost a spiral after:
>  - svg-resource 16*16 has been exported to raster (file_16.png);
>  - png-files color was reduced to 256 colors (8 bits).

Strange ... could you please provide an example (I didn't find any, and
I'm unable to reproduce this here). If its lost due to an automatic
conversion process, then the process should get fixed ...

> P.S. I am a student of The Inscape. GIMP is my main instrument. Sorry.
>      This attachment does not attach, but here it is:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n3790955/blurry%26grey.png 

Both are very fine graphic programs - and each of the programs has
strengths for certain tasks. For the given icons and their re-usability
throughout the project, I agree with Astron that switching to Inkscape
is a good option.

Ape, thanks for paying attention to details!

A final thought: All, please make use of quotations ... I found
discussing these issues looking at the bug report and two different
emails quite hard. (But this might just apply to me  *g*). Thanks!

Have a nice day,
Christoph

> Regards, ape
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Better-branding-was-Re-Towards-useful-icon-themes-tp3788930p3790955.html
> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>



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ape ape
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Re: Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

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Hi Christoph,
 My eyes are not friendly with the monitor. My PC is not friendly with the Google Translater. My head is not on friendly terms with the English language. But I'll try to answer your questions using GIMP.
 
> A.6. There is no icons for the "quickstart.exe" file and the "Program Group - LibreOffice folder".
 

 This is a problem OS Windows.
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Re: Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

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In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Christoph Noack wrote
> D. "Template{all}_16*16" has lost a spiral after:
>  - svg-resource 16*16 has been exported to raster (file_16.png);
>  - png-files color was reduced to 256 colors (8 bits).

Strange ... could you please provide an example (I didn't find any, and
I'm unable to reproduce this here). If its lost due to an automatic
conversion process, then the process should get fixed ...
 I was wrong. Helix (spiral) is not in your SVG file (Template{all}_16px).

Christoph Noack wrote
Seriously, nobody had the time to provide numerous icons for the same
document type ... it might not only happen to MS Word files, but all
other Text related documents LibreOffice is able to handle (Works, Word
Pro, WordPerfect, ...). The main alternatives are:
     ...
      * use one icon for LibreOffice and a different icon for all
        foreign (equivalent) document types

   ...
 I support this decision and propose to him a complete set PNG images.  This decision adds only 9 icons. New images (icons) were obtained from core files (images).  Graphical objects are discolored (are gray in color). The color palette of frames and pages were not changed. This solution helped to keep the palette of "256 colors".
 

ape ape
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Re: Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

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In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Christoph Noack wrote
The same is true for A.5 and A.6 (but I might not fully understand these
issues), that we use the simple LibreOffice / TDF icons for all other
places like the QuickStarter icon.
Bug_46777:  ...A.5. There is no icon for "*.vor" files, IDE "Quick Start" and IDE "Templates
and Documents" - "empty template".

 Templates created StarWriter.5 or Calc.5 or Draw.5 or Impress.5, have extension "*.vor". "*.vor" will open the application that created it: LibreWriter, Calc etc. The file "ODF_WriterWeb.Template.1" opens with the Web. But, we denote the two MIME-types of the same icon. This can and should be corrected, if you add a "empty_template" icon.
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Re: Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

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In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
  Christoph Noack wrote about:
         "> B. Windows_NT-6.x Explorer reduces itself on the desktop icon 256*256 to a
          > size 96*96, if you are using the classic (windows) theme. Icons 256*256
         > applications LibreOffice blurred (see attachment). This led me to modify
         > these figures. "

>So, if I get it right, we need 96x96 icons, right?

--------------------
96px icons do not need Windows OS does not use them. It is necessary to replace the icons of applications 256px Main, Calc, Draw, Writer, Impress, Math.

You did a great job:
- To replace 256px.png no need to fix your urgent SVG-file.
- 256px.png turned out 128px.svg, when I set a resolution of 180 px per inch and has exported to raster.

New icons have coincided with your template (256 px) and they are not blurred away when the Windows_Explorer makes them smaller (96 px).

Regards, ape.
Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Hi ape, Christoph,

On 1 March 2012 19:40, Christoph Noack <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> A.1 I agree, but the "Chart" had a green frame in the
>> OpenOffice.org_Galaxy_ver.3.0.
>
> Also targets A.2, A.3.
>
> The basic decision we've made was to only highlight the most essential
> document types and that led to only few colored application icons. The
> main goal is to avoid too much mixture of color (frame) and additional
> icons (the small graphic inside). A sub-goal is to establish the native
> TDF / LibreOffice symbol - for many people TDF and LibreOffice are still
> inexistent or very new ;-)
>
> Consequently, we do only serve 5 icons with colored frames to our users.
>
> For all other document types, icons with black borders are used. For
> example, also the HTML document icon features a black border - although
> it is opened in Writer. We also use a black border for the Master
> Document - because it "only" embeds other ODT documents (and due to the
> black border, Master Document icons and Writer Document icons can be
> easily distinguished when using very small icons sizes).
>
> Concerning the differentiation between document icon and application
> icon - there is none, because we estimated that it doesn't add any
> value. People start the application in a Start or Applications menu (no
> document icons to be seen here) and they mainly use documents when they
> browse documents (no applications to be started here). So we help users
> to get a straight connection if we avoid any differences ...
>
> Finally, personally I think these assumptions are still valid. But if
> the goals changed or the team comes to a different conclusion, then its
> surely time to update the icons.
>
>> A.3 I'll be back to the provost embodiment, it is easy to do.
>>
>> A.4 I think you're wrong. Two files (ODT and DOC, ODG and VSD, ODS and XLS
>> etc) have the same name. They will be denoted by the same symbol. You can
>> not define the eyes, "who is who," if Windows Explorer is turned off "Hide
>> extensions for known file types" (see attachment). LibreOffice uses in its
>> "Explorer" different *.png (images.zip) to ODF\MSO files and do not have
>> this problem.

First, most users shouldn't see our custom file picker at all. For
good reason – it's a copycat of the Windows 95 file picker.
In the custom file picker, we indeed use different icons, for
instance, in Tango we have the following (these are examples):
* .od*/.ot* – the LibO icons
* .xls/.doc/.ppt – generic Tango spreadsheet/text document/presentation icons
* .txt – Oracle's colourless standard ODT icon
... since we probably don't want to use generic Tango icons in Windows
Explorer, to me it sounds like a better to try to unify the icons in
the Tango theme (to use the normal LibreOffice icons). Should I do
that?


> Hehe, concerning the last statement, then its a bug ;-)

A bug in Windows' default options or a bug in LibreOffice? (And
indepently of this: should we still try to fix it?)


> Seriously, nobody had the time to provide numerous icons for the same
> document type ... it might not only happen to MS Word files, but all
> other Text related documents LibreOffice is able to handle (Works, Word
> Pro, WordPerfect, ...). The main alternatives are:
>      * use the same icon for LibreOffice and foreign (equivalent)
>        document types
>      * use one icon for LibreOffice and a different icon for all
>        foreign (equivalent) document types
>      * use individual icons for all document types

The cheapest way to do that is probably to add file extensions to the
icons. I don't know if we want that.


>> B. Windows_NT-6.x Explorer reduces itself on the desktop icon 256*256 to a
>> size 96*96, if you are using the classic (windows) theme. Icons 256*256
>> applications LibreOffice blurred (see attachment). This led me to modify
>> these figures.
>
> So, if I get it right, we need 96x96 icons, right?

The question with that still is, if Vista/7 will accept the extra icon, I guess.

Astron.

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Re: Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

Hi Astron,

You wrote Mar 06, 2012:
The question with that still is, if Vista/7 will accept the extra icon, I guess.

I think about this problem:
1. "96_pixels" pictures are not created. Windows-OS do not use this size. Windows Vista and 7 make less "256px.png" view of the icon to the size of 96 pixels. Some of the icons ("256px.png") are then blurred.
2. Create a new "256px.svg" is not necessary. "256px.png" can be drawn from "128px.svg". We must set the "Bitmap size pixel at = 180 dpi" when we export "128px.png" in the bitmap and we get "256px.png" after that.

ape