[CALC] Detective Trace inadequate display

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Ady Ady
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[CALC] Detective Trace inadequate display

Hello,

I'd like to ask for confirmation, whether the following situation
happens to other users of Calc too.

1_ Start a new spreadsheet with 2 sheets, with the zoom at %100.
2_ On "Sheet2.E20" insert the following formula: "=Sheet1.E20"
(without quotation marks).
3_ Select "Sheet2.E20".
4_ Press "Shift+F7", (Trace Precedents). Note the position of the
trace arrow.
5_ Change the zoom, from %100 to either %90 or to %110. Note the
(new?) position of the trace arrow.
6_ Change the zoom back to %100. Note the (new?) position of the
trace arrow.
7_ Go to Tools -> Detective -> Refresh Traces. Note the (new?)
position of the trace arrow.

If the test cell is "A1" instead of "E20", the trace arrow might
disappear from the screen when changing the zoom, until the next
"Refresh Traces".

In my system, step 5 incorrectly changes the displayed position of
the trace arrow, step 6 maintains the inadequate position, and step 7
"corrects" it. Additionally, performing some other tasks (e.g.
copy+paste) might refresh the trace arrows too (but I'm not sure
whether *any* task will).

In fact, the initial and/or ending zoom(s) can be any other than %100
too, as *any* zoom change generates this issue.

In the above steps I used "Trace Precedents". I see the same effect
when selecting "Sheet1.E20" and using "Trace Dependents" instead.

If this is replicable by other users, IMHO there should be at least
some way for the user to easily note that the traces should be
refreshed (because they are not really pointing to/from the adequate
intended cells). Perhaps by changing the color of the "offset" trace
arrows? Better yet, this displacement should not even happen,
specially with "AutoRefresh" (traces) set on, but I guess this is why
the "Refresh Traces" action exists(?).

Is this happening just in my system?

TIA,
Ady.

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TomW TomW
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Re: [CALC] Detective Trace inadequate display

On 2013-10-25 08:43, Ady wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'd like to ask for confirmation, whether the following situation
> happens to other users of Calc too.
>
> 1_ Start a new spreadsheet with 2 sheets, with the zoom at %100.
> 2_ On "Sheet2.E20" insert the following formula: "=Sheet1.E20"
> (without quotation marks).
> 3_ Select "Sheet2.E20".
> 4_ Press "Shift+F7", (Trace Precedents). Note the position of the
> trace arrow.
> 5_ Change the zoom, from %100 to either %90 or to %110. Note the
> (new?) position of the trace arrow.
> 6_ Change the zoom back to %100. Note the (new?) position of the
> trace arrow.
> 7_ Go to Tools -> Detective -> Refresh Traces. Note the (new?)
> position of the trace arrow.
>
> If the test cell is "A1" instead of "E20", the trace arrow might
> disappear from the screen when changing the zoom, until the next
> "Refresh Traces".
>
> In my system, step 5 incorrectly changes the displayed position of
> the trace arrow, step 6 maintains the inadequate position, and step 7
> "corrects" it. Additionally, performing some other tasks (e.g.
> copy+paste) might refresh the trace arrows too (but I'm not sure
> whether *any* task will).
>
> In fact, the initial and/or ending zoom(s) can be any other than %100
> too, as *any* zoom change generates this issue.
>
> In the above steps I used "Trace Precedents". I see the same effect
> when selecting "Sheet1.E20" and using "Trace Dependents" instead.
>
> If this is replicable by other users, IMHO there should be at least
> some way for the user to easily note that the traces should be
> refreshed (because they are not really pointing to/from the adequate
> intended cells). Perhaps by changing the color of the "offset" trace
> arrows? Better yet, this displacement should not even happen,
> specially with "AutoRefresh" (traces) set on, but I guess this is why
> the "Refresh Traces" action exists(?).
>
> Is this happening just in my system?
>
> TIA,
> Ady.
>

Ady;

Same behavior in 4.0.6 LibreOffice on WinXP, and 4.1.2.3 LibreOffice
Portable on Vista.
Behaves correctly on LibreOffice 3.5.5.2 on Vista.

TomW

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Mirosław Zalewski Mirosław Zalewski
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Re: [CALC] Detective Trace inadequate display

In reply to this post by Ady
First and foremost:
thanks for taking time to prepare valid, simple use case and asking us
if we can reproduce bug before actually submitting it. This is exactly
what every good user should do.
I hope we will see more contributions from you in the future :) .

Dnia 2013-10-25, o godz. 15:43:15
Ady <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

> In my system, step 5 incorrectly changes the displayed position of
> the trace arrow, step 6 maintains the inadequate position, and step 7
> "corrects" it. Additionally, performing some other tasks (e.g.
> copy+paste) might refresh the trace arrows too (but I'm not sure
> whether *any* task will).

I can confirm on 4.1.2, Debian testing amd64.
I can NOT confirm on master from August 2011, Build ID: d6cde02, same
computer.

> If this is replicable by other users, IMHO there should be at least
> some way for the user to easily note that the traces should be
> refreshed (because they are not really pointing to/from the adequate
> intended cells).

Well, no. This is a bug and it should be fixed, not worked around.
Please file a bug (take a look here:
<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugReport>) and post link to
report here at the list.
I will confirm and bibisect it, so developers can jump straight to fix
(if they notice...).

OTOH, this arrow is not much usable anyway (it just shows that value is
from other sheet), so I suppose it might not get highest priority.
--
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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timllloyd timllloyd
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Re: [CALC] Detective Trace inadequate display

In reply to this post by Ady
comments below
On 25/10/13 23:43, Ady wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'd like to ask for confirmation, whether the following situation
> happens to other users of Calc too.
>
> 1_ Start a new spreadsheet with 2 sheets, with the zoom at %100.
> 2_ On "Sheet2.E20" insert the following formula: "=Sheet1.E20"
> (without quotation marks).
> 3_ Select "Sheet2.E20".
> 4_ Press "Shift+F7", (Trace Precedents). Note the position of the
> trace arrow.Pointing from the upper left into E20
> 5_ Change the zoom, from %100 to either %90 or to %110. Note the
> (new?) position of the trace arrow.arrow points from C17 to D19
> 6_ Change the zoom back to %100. Note the (new?) position of the
> trace arrow.same position
> 7_ Go to Tools -> Detective -> Refresh Traces. Note the (new?)
> position of the trace arrow.back to it's original location
If I place the formula in A1 the arrow disappears when zoom is set to
90% and doesn't reappear when it is set back to 100%. However "refresh
traces" does restore the arrow

Hope this helps (Fedora 20 Alpha LO4.1.2.3)

Cheers

> If the test cell is "A1" instead of "E20", the trace arrow might
> disappear from the screen when changing the zoom, until the next
> "Refresh Traces".
>
> In my system, step 5 incorrectly changes the displayed position of
> the trace arrow, step 6 maintains the inadequate position, and step 7
> "corrects" it. Additionally, performing some other tasks (e.g.
> copy+paste) might refresh the trace arrows too (but I'm not sure
> whether *any* task will).
>
> In fact, the initial and/or ending zoom(s) can be any other than %100
> too, as *any* zoom change generates this issue.
>
> In the above steps I used "Trace Precedents". I see the same effect
> when selecting "Sheet1.E20" and using "Trace Dependents" instead.
>
> If this is replicable by other users, IMHO there should be at least
> some way for the user to easily note that the traces should be
> refreshed (because they are not really pointing to/from the adequate
> intended cells). Perhaps by changing the color of the "offset" trace
> arrows? Better yet, this displacement should not even happen,
> specially with "AutoRefresh" (traces) set on, but I guess this is why
> the "Refresh Traces" action exists(?).
>
> Is this happening just in my system?
>
> TIA,
> Ady.
>


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Ady Ady
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Re: [CALC] Detective Trace inadequate display

In reply to this post by Mirosław Zalewski

> > If this is replicable by other users, IMHO there should be at least
> > some way for the user to easily note that the traces should be
> > refreshed (because they are not really pointing to/from the adequate
> > intended cells).
>
> Well, no. This is a bug and it should be fixed, not worked around.
 
I agree, it should be fixed. That's why I added "Better yet, this
displacement should not even happen".

> Please file a bug (take a look here:
> <https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugReport>) and post link to
> report here at the list.
 
Bug report #70886 opened:
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70886 
 
> I will confirm and bibisect it, so developers can jump straight to fix
> (if they notice...).
>
> OTOH, this arrow is not much usable anyway (it just shows that value is
> from other sheet), so I suppose it might not get highest priority.
 
I disagree. The "Detective" feature is already very crippled in
LibreOffice. This inadequate behavior makes it even harder and
generates more confusion, specially when using complex spreadsheets
(which is when users most need the feature). If anything, IMHO the
"Detective" feature should be very much improved (not left with
inadequate behaviors because it is already crippled anyway).

Thank you and Best Regards,
Ady.

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Tom Tom
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Re: [CALC] Detective Trace inadequate display

Hi :)
I think that is generally true anyway.

Work-arounds are cool but should really only be seen as temporary
solutions.  The bugs that create a need for a work-around still need to be
reported so that they can be fixed.

Regards from
Tom :)


On 26 October 2013 10:42, Ady <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > > If this is replicable by other users, IMHO there should be at least
> > > some way for the user to easily note that the traces should be
> > > refreshed (because they are not really pointing to/from the adequate
> > > intended cells).
> >
> > Well, no. This is a bug and it should be fixed, not worked around.
>
> I agree, it should be fixed. That's why I added "Better yet, this
> displacement should not even happen".
>
> > Please file a bug (take a look here:
> > <https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugReport>) and post link to
> > report here at the list.
>
> Bug report #70886 opened:
>  https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70886
>
> > I will confirm and bibisect it, so developers can jump straight to fix
> > (if they notice...).
> >
> > OTOH, this arrow is not much usable anyway (it just shows that value is
> > from other sheet), so I suppose it might not get highest priority.
>
> I disagree. The "Detective" feature is already very crippled in
> LibreOffice. This inadequate behavior makes it even harder and
> generates more confusion, specially when using complex spreadsheets
> (which is when users most need the feature). If anything, IMHO the
> "Detective" feature should be very much improved (not left with
> inadequate behaviors because it is already crippled anyway).
>
> Thank you and Best Regards,
> Ady.
>
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>

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Mirosław Zalewski Mirosław Zalewski
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Re: [CALC] Detective Trace inadequate display

In reply to this post by Ady
Dnia 2013-10-26, o godz. 12:42:10
Ady <[hidden email]> napisał(a):

> Bug report #70886 opened:
>  https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70886 

Confirmed, added bibisect log.
It's now up to developers to pick up challenge and fix that issue.
 
> I disagree. The "Detective" feature is already very crippled in
> LibreOffice. This inadequate behavior makes it even harder and
> generates more confusion, specially when using complex spreadsheets
> (which is when users most need the feature). If anything, IMHO the
> "Detective" feature should be very much improved (not left with
> inadequate behaviors because it is already crippled anyway).

I never said that this bug SHOULD be left open and not fixed in
reasonable time. I only explained why some people might skip over this
one and devote their time to other issues, which they see as higher
priority.

As of improving "detective" - well, it could use some improvements,
like almost any other part of suite. In software development, there is
always something to do. In free software, usually there are very
limited resources (manpower, infrastructure, money, time etc.). That
means we end up with more work than we can complete. And that means
that "should" is not really helpful, because it does not bring us any
closer to out goals. The question is not "what should be done?", but
"who may do that?".
--
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Ady Ady
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Re: [CALC] Detective Trace inadequate display


> Dnia 2013-10-26, o godz. 12:42:10
> Ady <[hidden email]> napisal(a):
>
> > Bug report #70886 opened:
> >  https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70886 
>
> Confirmed, added bibisect log.
> It's now up to developers to pick up challenge and fix that issue.
>  
> > I disagree. The "Detective" feature is already very crippled in
> > LibreOffice. This inadequate behavior makes it even harder and
> > generates more confusion, specially when using complex spreadsheets
> > (which is when users most need the feature). If anything, IMHO the
> > "Detective" feature should be very much improved (not left with
> > inadequate behaviors because it is already crippled anyway).
>
> I never said that this bug SHOULD be left open and not fixed in
> reasonable time. I only explained why some people might skip over this
> one and devote their time to other issues, which they see as higher
> priority.
>
> As of improving "detective" - well, it could use some improvements,
> like almost any other part of suite. In software development, there is
> always something to do. In free software, usually there are very
> limited resources (manpower, infrastructure, money, time etc.). That
> means we end up with more work than we can complete. And that means
> that "should" is not really helpful, because it does not bring us any
> closer to out goals. The question is not "what should be done?", but
> "who may do that?".
> --
> Best regards
> Miroslaw Zalewski
>
 
Thank you all for your replies, and special thanks to Miroslaw for
his bibisect and follow up at
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70886 .

FWIW, I'd like to clarify my prior comments.

1_ If / when this issue gets the developers' attention, I'd like for
them to find a *real* solution (and even improvements), not just a
workaround.

2_ If a solution can't be achieved for some technical reason (other
than availability of developers' time), I suggested a possible
alternative behavior: instead of leaving the inadequate arrows
displayed as "normal", change their color until they are displayed
adequately again. This suggestion was meant not as my preferred
desired method to solve/workaround the issue, but only as a trigger
to alternative thoughts (whether for this particular issue or for
potential future improvements to the "Detective" trace features),
"just in case".

3_ When I said that the (IMO) insufficient "Detective" features
should not be used as a reason not to bother with this issue either,
my intention was to explain why, IMO, that's not the best potential
reasoning, for whoever would read this email topic (specially for
developers that might be tempted to think that way).

4_ Of course I understand that this issue might never get resolved
just because developers might think this matter deserves low
priority. My answer is that, at some point, the "Detective" feature
should be greatly improved, not just as my subjective "desire", but
as a high priority for Calc users in practical objective terms.

Of course developers might choose to invest their time in whatever
they want; no complains. For users, there are other spreadsheet tools
capable of performing "just fine" with simple sheets and/or simple
calculations.

In my experience, the "Detective" (trace) feature is crucial for
users with either complex formulas, multiple sheets and/or many
different relations between many cells. IMO, if Calc is to be used
for something more than just relatively simple cases, then in
practical terms the "Detective" feature *must* be improved (a.k.a.,
not such a low priority). I am aware that elevating the development
priority of the "Detective" feature means lowering it for some other
task.

I am just expressing my desire and opinion (and my reasoning as to
why this bug should be solved), _independently_ (not against nor in
opposition)  of what has been expressed in prior emails / posts in
this topic. I am hoping this objective reasoning will also trigger
some developer(s) to act on it.

Again, thank you all.

Best Regards,
Ady.

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