Calc usability improvements

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Patrick Bakker Patrick Bakker
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Calc usability improvements

Having grown very used to Excel defaults I find Calc very annoying to
use. Now that contributing to LibreOffice looks sane I'm curious how
receptive people would be to some patches for the following Calc
conventions...

SEMI-COLON INSTEAD OF COMMA AS FUNCTION ARGUMENT SEPARATOR

Current Calc behaviour:
=subtotal(9;a1:a5)

Desired behaviour:
=subtotal(9,a1:a5)

I'm not sure if it would feasible to support both ; and , as argument
seperators.

DELETE CELL "HELPER"

The delete cell "helper" dialog box pops up anytime I try to delete a
cell or cell selection. It gives me options to delete some combination
of text / numbers / date & time / formulas / notes / formats /
objects. Occassionally this is useful. For regular use, however, I
just want the value of the cell deleted.

The current behavior seems analogous to Paste Special (which is
Shift-Control-V) and I wonder if it would be possible to have Delete
delete only the cell value immediately and. Then a Delete Special...
command could be added (perhaps Shift-Control-Delete) which would
bring up the current delete dialog box.

COPY & PASTE TO A CELL WITH AN EXISTING VALUE

The first time I copy and pasted a cell formula into another cell
which already had something in it a dialog came up asking something
like "This cell already has a value. Are you sure you want to do copy
a new value in?" EXTREMELY annoying. So annoying that I skipped past
it for the first few days without seeing the "Show this dialog"
checkbox. Once I saw the option to hide the dialog I did so and I
don't know how to get it back to quote exactly what it says. I can't
really think of any reason for this dialog to exist at all but at
least it can be dismissed so its not quite so bad as the delete
dialog. Still would anybody object if I submitted a patch to kill it?

Thanks to everyone involved in this project! Its great to see some
momentum gathering.
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Kevin Hunter Kevin Hunter
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Re: Calc usability improvements

At 8:21pm -0500 Thu, 11 Nov 2010, Patrick Bakker wrote:
> SEMI-COLON INSTEAD OF COMMA AS FUNCTION ARGUMENT SEPARATOR
>
> Current Calc behaviour:
> =subtotal(9;a1:a5)
>
> Desired behaviour:
> =subtotal(9,a1:a5)

I believe OpenOffice has supported both semicolon and comma since at
least 3.0.  Take a look at Tools->Options->Calc->Formula.

> DELETE CELL "HELPER"
>
> The delete cell "helper" dialog box pops up anytime I try to delete
> a cell or cell selection. It gives me options to delete some
> combination of text / numbers / date& time / formulas / notes /
> formats / objects. Occassionally this is useful. For regular use,
> however, I just want the value of the cell deleted.

This is perhaps not the most intuitive, but the behavior parallels that
of at least 2 operating systems user interface choices:

One one OS:
- If you select a file and hit Del key, it says "Hey!  Are you sure?!"
- If you select a file and hit Shift+Del, it doesn't ask.

Another OS:
- Del key moves it to the trash.
- Shift+Del permanently removes the file right then.

Same idea, but slightly different UI experience.

I've gotten into the habit of pressing Shift+Del myself, but I agree it
was annoying until I figured that out.  Rather than change that default,
what about putting some simple text in that dialog box, along the lines
of "Tip: if you want the default action, press Shift+Del."

> COPY&  PASTE TO A CELL WITH AN EXISTING VALUE
>
> The first time I copy and pasted a cell formula into another cell
> which already had something in it a dialog came up asking something
> like "This cell already has a value. Are you sure you want to do copy
> a new value in?" EXTREMELY annoying. So annoying that I skipped past
> it for the first few days without seeing the "Show this dialog"
> checkbox. Once I saw the option to hide the dialog I did so and I
> don't know how to get it back to quote exactly what it says. I can't
> really think of any reason for this dialog to exist at all but at
> least it can be dismissed so its not quite so bad as the delete
> dialog. Still would anybody object if I submitted a patch to kill it?

Heh.  With the power of Ctrl+Z at my fingertips, I agree that that
dialog box could be seen as an annoyance.  However, I have witnessed
many times, a less than power-user bless that dialog so they didn't
overwrite their data.  In this light, I wouldn't be opposed to it's
removal, provided LO informs the user when they have copied over data,
and reminds them that they can undo the action.

A less obtrusive method of informing them would be nice.  Something akin
to Firefox's dropdown bar, or IE's information bar would do nicely, I think.

Thoughts?

Kevin
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Patrick Bakker Patrick Bakker
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Re: Calc usability improvements

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Kevin Hunter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> At 8:21pm -0500 Thu, 11 Nov 2010, Patrick Bakker wrote:
>>
>> SEMI-COLON INSTEAD OF COMMA AS FUNCTION ARGUMENT SEPARATOR
>>
>> Current Calc behaviour:
>> =subtotal(9;a1:a5)
>>
>> Desired behaviour:
>> =subtotal(9,a1:a5)
>
> I believe OpenOffice has supported both semicolon and comma since at least
> 3.0.  Take a look at Tools->Options->Calc->Formula.

I thought I had downloaded LibreOffice but I guess I haven't yet. I'm
running OpenOffice 3.2.0 here and I don't have a Tools -> Options - >
Calc -> Formula.

>> DELETE CELL "HELPER"
>>
>> The delete cell "helper" dialog box pops up anytime I try to delete
>> a cell or cell selection. It gives me options to delete some
>> combination of text / numbers / date& time / formulas / notes /
>> formats / objects. Occassionally this is useful. For regular use,
>> however, I just want the value of the cell deleted.
>
> This is perhaps not the most intuitive, but the behavior parallels that of
> at least 2 operating systems user interface choices:
>
> One one OS:
> - If you select a file and hit Del key, it says "Hey!  Are you sure?!"
> - If you select a file and hit Shift+Del, it doesn't ask.
>
> Another OS:
> - Del key moves it to the trash.
> - Shift+Del permanently removes the file right then.
>
> Same idea, but slightly different UI experience.
>
> I've gotten into the habit of pressing Shift+Del myself, but I agree it was
> annoying until I figured that out.  Rather than change that default, what
> about putting some simple text in that dialog box, along the lines of "Tip:
> if you want the default action, press Shift+Del."

I didn't know about the Shift + Delete keystroke which helps. Having
two work around the easiest keystroke still feels wrong - especially
with undo/redo capability. The most common action should map to the
simplest keybinding I would think.

>> COPY&  PASTE TO A CELL WITH AN EXISTING VALUE
>>
>> The first time I copy and pasted a cell formula into another cell
>> which already had something in it a dialog came up asking something
>> like "This cell already has a value. Are you sure you want to do copy
>> a new value in?" EXTREMELY annoying. So annoying that I skipped past
>> it for the first few days without seeing the "Show this dialog"
>> checkbox. Once I saw the option to hide the dialog I did so and I
>> don't know how to get it back to quote exactly what it says. I can't
>> really think of any reason for this dialog to exist at all but at
>> least it can be dismissed so its not quite so bad as the delete
>> dialog. Still would anybody object if I submitted a patch to kill it?
>
> Heh.  With the power of Ctrl+Z at my fingertips, I agree that that dialog
> box could be seen as an annoyance.  However, I have witnessed many times, a
> less than power-user bless that dialog so they didn't overwrite their data.
>  In this light, I wouldn't be opposed to it's removal, provided LO informs
> the user when they have copied over data, and reminds them that they can
> undo the action.
>
> A less obtrusive method of informing them would be nice.  Something akin to
> Firefox's dropdown bar, or IE's information bar would do nicely, I think.

Yeah, I don't see the value in this warning at all but if it is useful
at all to anybody I would think a less obtrusive, after the fact quiet
notification that existing date was overwritten would make more sense
to me.
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Michael Meeks Michael Meeks
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Re: Calc usability improvements

Hi Patrick,

On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 23:30 -0800, Patrick Bakker wrote:
> >> SEMI-COLON INSTEAD OF COMMA AS FUNCTION ARGUMENT SEPARATOR

        Kohei (or was it Jody) fixed this many moons ago; I believe the default
is set to improve usability here in LibreOffice; I too fell over this as
my first step using calc (as an en_US user). Of course - our patch
'fixes' this only for locales where it makes sense : eg. English. for
(eg.) German & French - it remains ';' for separator since ',' is a
decimal separator there. 3,5 (de) == 3.5 (en)

> >> DELETE CELL "HELPER"
> >>
> >> The delete cell "helper" dialog box pops up anytime I try to delete
> >> a cell or cell selection. It gives me options to delete some

        And this is deadly annoying too - it is already disabled by default in
LibreOffice master, delete now just deletes: If you want the old
behaviour (since you've learned it at length) - you can select the
'Compatibility' options for Calc, and the 'legacy' keybindings.

        So - hopefully this makes you happy too ;-)

> > - Shift+Del permanently removes the file right then.

        Which makes me wonder; should shift-del give you this 'delete contents'
option in that mode (or is the menu sufficient).

> I didn't know about the Shift + Delete keystroke which helps. Having
> two work around the easiest keystroke still feels wrong

        Agreed; cf. above.

> >> COPY&  PASTE TO A CELL WITH AN EXISTING VALUE
> >>
> >> The first time I copy and pasted a cell formula into another cell
> >> which already had something in it a dialog came up asking something
> >> like "This cell already has a value. Are you sure you want to do copy
> >> a new value in?" EXTREMELY annoying.

        Well, this winner is still in the code :-) and yes, it is pretty
annoying.

> > Heh.  With the power of Ctrl+Z at my fingertips, I agree that that dialog
> > box could be seen as an annoyance.  However, I have witnessed many times, a
> > less than power-user bless that dialog so they didn't overwrite their data.
> >  In this light, I wouldn't be opposed to it's removal, provided LO informs
> > the user when they have copied over data, and reminds them that they can
> > undo the action.

        Might be a good easy-hack; how we tell the user in an unobtrusive way
that this has happened, I don't know - some good UI ideas there
appreciated; the 'status bar' is not such a great plan I suspect for
this. "alpha transparent, hovering notifications" are a nice idea too
but ... ;-)

> Yeah, I don't see the value in this warning at all but if it is useful
> at all to anybody I would think a less obtrusive, after the fact quiet
> notification that existing date was overwritten would make more sense
> to me.

        I wonder if switching the polarity of the check-box - so it is checked
might help people 'see' it, and thus un-check it to get rid of it (some
Mozilla dialogs do that I guess ?).

        HTH,

                Michael.

--
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Re: Calc usability improvements

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:32:04 +0000, Michael Meeks wrote:
> > > - Shift+Del permanently removes the file right then.
>
> Which makes me wonder; should shift-del give you this 'delete contents'
> option in that mode (or is the menu sufficient).

Yes, that is how I would expect it. del doing the most common thing and
special functions via modifiers Ctrl or Shift (instinctively I'd try
Ctrl first)

Sebastian

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Kevin Hunter Kevin Hunter
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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
At 5:32am -0500 Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Michael Meeks wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 23:30 -0800, Patrick Bakker wrote:
>>>> SEMI-COLON INSTEAD OF COMMA AS FUNCTION ARGUMENT SEPARATOR
>
> Kohei (or was it Jody) fixed this many moons ago; I believe the
> default is set to improve usability here in LibreOffice; I too fell
> over this as my first step using calc (as an en_US user). Of course -
> our patch 'fixes' this only for locales where it makes sense : eg.
> English. for (eg.) German&  French - it remains ';' for separator
> since ',' is a decimal separator there. 3,5 (de) == 3.5 (en)

Man, some smart people on this list and.  As a conceited en_US user, I
just learned the ';' approach initially and accepted it as a quirk of a
different product.  I didn't even think there might have been a reason
behind it (other locales!).  And when it changed to ',' I didn't give it
a second thought.

Do you know roughly when?  I could have sworn it was 3.0, but perhaps
that was because of out-of-band patches from the *nix distros I was
using at the time.

Cheers,

Kevin
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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
At 5:32am -0500 Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Michael Meeks wrote:

> On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 23:30 -0800, Patrick Bakker wrote:
>>>> DELETE CELL "HELPER"
>>>>
>>>> The delete cell "helper" dialog box pops up anytime I try to delete
>>>> a cell or cell selection. It gives me options to delete some
>
> And this is deadly annoying too - it is already disabled by default
> in LibreOffice master, delete now just deletes: If you want the old
> behaviour (since you've learned it at length) - you can select the
> 'Compatibility' options for Calc, and the 'legacy' keybindings.
>
> So - hopefully this makes you happy too ;-)

Meh, for me personally, I don't care.  However, I do try to stay on top
of the small things like this as they change between versions and
distros so that I can help out when I'm shoulder surfing or helping a
friend/family member over the phone.  It's amazing that what trips up
communication over the phone (i.e. when I can't see what they're doing).
  The big conceptual items aren't the issue.  It's the small stuff, like
for-granted key strokes doing something else.

>>> - Shift+Del permanently removes the file right then.
>
> Which makes me wonder; should shift-del give you this 'delete contents'
> option in that mode (or is the menu sufficient).
>
>> I didn't know about the Shift + Delete keystroke which helps. Having
>> two work around the easiest keystroke still feels wrong
>
> Agreed; cf. above.

Huh.  Yeah, it's always a play between working with the less-capable
users, and what perhaps feels "right" to each of us.

This leads to a perhaps bigger thought process of generally all our
shortcuts and actions.  Is there a list somewhere?  Or are these
piecemeal throughout the code?  I do see Tools->Customize, which begins
to address the key mappings.  But what about the "random" settings
throughout LO like this?

 From bitter experience with my father, this is also the kind of muscle
memory that gets slowly customized ("fixed") over time, and sometimes
lost when I install a new version.  It would be nice to have a clear
notion of how to handle an upgrade path with legacy users' "learned"
interactions.

Has the upgrade case in terms of keyboard and interaction been thought
about?  Do we currently write these out somewhere in the user's setup,
and deal with them appropriately when upgrading?

Kevin
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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
At 5:32am -0500 Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Michael Meeks wrote:
> Might be a good easy-hack; how we tell the user in an unobtrusive
> way that this has happened, I don't know - some good UI ideas there
> appreciated; the 'status bar' is not such a great plan I suspect for
> this. "alpha transparent, hovering notifications" are a nice idea
> too but ... ;-)

Ooh, good call!  Though I think we'd need to further spec out what we'd
like to happen.  See below.

>> Yeah, I don't see the value in this warning at all but if it is
>> useful at all to anybody I would think a less obtrusive, after the
>> fact quiet notification that existing date was overwritten would
>> make more sense to me.
>
> I wonder if switching the polarity of the check-box - so it is checked
> might help people 'see' it, and thus un-check it to get rid of it
> (some Mozilla dialogs do that I guess ?).

Switching the check box polarity is a good start but now that I think
about it, having a pop-up at all as the default case is the problem.
The thought process for the information bar was that it *is* noticed,
but also can be ignored.  My issue with a pop up that demands attention
is that it now messes with my workflow.  When I'm in the middle of
solving a problem, however small, I want to take it completion.  With
the pop up, I have to stop and respond.  With the ignorable information
bar, I can note it, but get to whatever the issue is on my own terms.

Thoughts?

Kevin
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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
On Fri, 2010-11-12 at 10:32 +0000, Michael Meeks wrote:
> Hi Patrick,
>
> On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 23:30 -0800, Patrick Bakker wrote:
> > >> SEMI-COLON INSTEAD OF COMMA AS FUNCTION ARGUMENT SEPARATOR
>
> Kohei (or was it Jody) fixed this many moons ago; I believe the default
> is set to improve usability here in LibreOffice;

Yup, I did this around 2.4 or 3.0, I don't remember which version.  The
default for the English locale is to use ',' unless the decimal
separator is ',', in which case it uses ';' by default.

> > >> DELETE CELL "HELPER"
> > >>
> > >> The delete cell "helper" dialog box pops up anytime I try to delete
> > >> a cell or cell selection. It gives me options to delete some
>
> And this is deadly annoying too - it is already disabled by default in
> LibreOffice master, delete now just deletes: If you want the old
> behaviour (since you've learned it at length) - you can select the
> 'Compatibility' options for Calc, and the 'legacy' keybindings.

Or, the old behavior is mapped to the Backspace key.  The old behavior
was that

* Delete - launches the delete content dialog
* Backspace - simply deletes without the dialog.

and what we did is to simply swap these two key bindings.

>
> So - hopefully this makes you happy too ;-)
>
> > > - Shift+Del permanently removes the file right then.

Heh, I didn't know about this one.  Actually, Shift+Del deletes the
content, select the cell, and move the content to the clipboard (as I
discovered just now).

In fact, it appears that Shift-Delete is mapped to 'Cut' (same as
Ctrl-X), while Shift-Insert is mapped to 'Paste' (same as Ctrl-V).

>
> Which makes me wonder; should shift-del give you this 'delete contents'
> option in that mode (or is the menu sufficient).
>
> > I didn't know about the Shift + Delete keystroke which helps. Having
> > two work around the easiest keystroke still feels wrong
>
> Agreed; cf. above.
>
> > >> COPY&  PASTE TO A CELL WITH AN EXISTING VALUE
> > >>
> > >> The first time I copy and pasted a cell formula into another cell
> > >> which already had something in it a dialog came up asking something
> > >> like "This cell already has a value. Are you sure you want to do copy
> > >> a new value in?" EXTREMELY annoying.
>
> Well, this winner is still in the code :-) and yes, it is pretty
> annoying.
>
> > > Heh.  With the power of Ctrl+Z at my fingertips, I agree that that dialog
> > > box could be seen as an annoyance.  However, I have witnessed many times, a
> > > less than power-user bless that dialog so they didn't overwrite their data.
> > >  In this light, I wouldn't be opposed to it's removal, provided LO informs
> > > the user when they have copied over data, and reminds them that they can
> > > undo the action.
>
> Might be a good easy-hack; how we tell the user in an unobtrusive way
> that this has happened, I don't know - some good UI ideas there
> appreciated; the 'status bar' is not such a great plan I suspect for
> this. "alpha transparent, hovering notifications" are a nice idea too
> but ... ;-)

BTW, just to provide a reference point, Excel doesn't launch any
overwrite warning at all, which may be a better option since we always
have undo.

In in our own Writer doesn't launch overwrite warning when pasting
contents to overwrite the existing inside Writer table; it just
overwrites it.

>
> > Yeah, I don't see the value in this warning at all but if it is useful
> > at all to anybody I would think a less obtrusive, after the fact quiet
> > notification that existing date was overwritten would make more sense
> > to me.
>
> I wonder if switching the polarity of the check-box - so it is checked
> might help people 'see' it, and thus un-check it to get rid of it (some
> Mozilla dialogs do that I guess ?).

That's probably a huge improvement there alone.  But I personally
wouldn't mind the whole dialog be gone.  I've checked Calc, Excel,
Google Docs and Gnumeric, and Calc is the only spreadsheet app that
warns about overwriting existing cells.

Kohei

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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
Am 12.11.2010 11:32, schrieb Michael Meeks:

> Kohei (or was it Jody) fixed this many moons ago; I believe the default
> is set to improve usability here in LibreOffice; I too fell over this as
> my first step using calc (as an en_US user). Of course - our patch
> 'fixes' this only for locales where it makes sense : eg. English. for
> (eg.) German&  French - it remains ';' for separator since ',' is a
> decimal separator there. 3,5 (de) == 3.5 (en)

Just keep in mind, that there are different conventions in different
(de) speaking countries.

While "," might be correct for de_DE, it is commonly "." for de_CH.



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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Kevin Hunter
On Fri, 2010-11-12 at 07:22 -0500, Kevin Hunter wrote:

> Do you know roughly when?  I could have sworn it was 3.0, but perhaps
> that was because of out-of-band patches from the *nix distros I was
> using at the time.

I would say 2.4 or 3.0, and it was only in Go-OO, which most Linux
distros packaged as "OpenOffice.org".

Kohei

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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Kevin Hunter
Hi Kevin,

On Fri, 2010-11-12 at 07:55 -0500, Kevin Hunter wrote:

> This leads to a perhaps bigger thought process of generally all our
> shortcuts and actions.  Is there a list somewhere?  Or are these
> piecemeal throughout the code?  I do see Tools->Customize, which begins
> to address the key mappings.  But what about the "random" settings
> throughout LO like this?

All key bindings are centralized in a single location as they should be
(in Tools - Customize).  Shift-Delete is no exception, though it is
under global key binding (LibreOffice) as opposed to the application key
binding (Calc).

In a newer beta which should be out soon, you'll see a new options page
'Compatibility' under LibreOffice Calc to switch between LibreOffice's
default key bindings and the old OOo legacy.

http://kohei.us/2010/10/15/key-binding-compatibility-options-take-2/


>  From bitter experience with my father, this is also the kind of muscle
> memory that gets slowly customized ("fixed") over time, and sometimes
> lost when I install a new version.  It would be nice to have a clear
> notion of how to handle an upgrade path with legacy users' "learned"
> interactions.
>
> Has the upgrade case in terms of keyboard and interaction been thought
> about?  Do we currently write these out somewhere in the user's setup,
> and deal with them appropriately when upgrading?

Yes.  We store all customized key bindings in the user configuration,
and migrate them when upgrading, so that the users won't lose their
custom key bindings in the newer versions.

Kohei

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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Rolf Gloor
On Fri, 2010-11-12 at 15:08 +0100, Rolf Gloor wrote:

> Am 12.11.2010 11:32, schrieb Michael Meeks:
>
> > Kohei (or was it Jody) fixed this many moons ago; I believe the default
> > is set to improve usability here in LibreOffice; I too fell over this as
> > my first step using calc (as an en_US user). Of course - our patch
> > 'fixes' this only for locales where it makes sense : eg. English. for
> > (eg.) German&  French - it remains ';' for separator since ',' is a
> > decimal separator there. 3,5 (de) == 3.5 (en)
>
> Just keep in mind, that there are different conventions in different
> (de) speaking countries.
>
> While "," might be correct for de_DE, it is commonly "." for de_CH.

Yup, that is accounted for when choosing the default setting.

Kohei

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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Patrick Bakker
Patrick Bakker wrote (12-11-10 02:21)

> DELETE CELL "HELPER"
>
> The delete cell "helper" dialog box pops up anytime I try to delete a
> cell or cell selection. It gives me options to delete some combination
> of text / numbers / date&  time / formulas / notes / formats /
> objects. Occassionally this is useful. For regular use, however, I
> just want the value of the cell deleted.
>
> The current behavior seems analogous to Paste Special (which is
> Shift-Control-V) and I wonder if it would be possible to have Delete
> delete only the cell value immediately and. Then a Delete Special...
> command could be added (perhaps Shift-Control-Delete) which would
> bring up the current delete dialog box.

Default OOo:
  Backspace = delete without options
  Dell = delete with options

Default LibreOffice: the other way round.

Maybe this setting is included in the 'Compatibility options' ?

Best,
Cor


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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
Michael Meeks wrote (12-11-10 11:32)

>>>> COPY&   PASTE TO A CELL WITH AN EXISTING VALUE
>>>> I wonder if switching the polarity of the check-box - so it is checked
> might help people 'see' it, and thus un-check it to get rid of it (some
> Mozilla dialogs do that I guess ?).

Best suggestion I have seen in this repetitive discussion :-)
Thanks!

Cor

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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
On Sat, 2010-11-13 at 02:06 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote:
> Default OOo:
>   Backspace = delete without options
>   Dell = delete with options
>
> Default LibreOffice: the other way round.
>
> Maybe this setting is included in the 'Compatibility options' ?

Sure is. :-)  Allow me to refer to this blog post of mine for the
evidence.

http://kohei.us/2010/10/15/key-binding-compatibility-options-take-2/

Cheers,
Kohei

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Re: Calc usability improvements

Kohei Yoshida wrote (13-11-10 04:14)

> On Sat, 2010-11-13 at 02:06 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote:
>> Default OOo:
>>    Backspace = delete without options
>>    Dell = delete with options
>>
>> Default LibreOffice: the other way round.
>>
>> Maybe this setting is included in the 'Compatibility options' ?
>
> Sure is. :-)  Allow me to refer to this blog post of mine for the
> evidence.
>
> http://kohei.us/2010/10/15/key-binding-compatibility-options-take-2/

Thanks Kohei.
After sending my post, I also saw that you as expert on this area
already had mentioned the Tab-Del-shift ;-)

Best,
Cor

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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Kevin Hunter
At 7:57am -0500 Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Kevin Hunter wrote:
> At 5:32am -0500 Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Michael Meeks wrote:
>> I wonder if switching the polarity of the check-box - so it is checked
>> might help people 'see' it, and thus un-check it to get rid of it
>> (some Mozilla dialogs do that I guess ?).
>
> Switching the check box polarity is a good start but now that I think
> about it, having a pop-up at all as the default case is the problem. The
> thought process for the information bar was that it *is* noticed, but
> also can be ignored.

I blame last weeks workload in $REAL_LIFE.  You're suggestion works,
because it would only happen the first time.  I retract my suggestion of
the dropdown information bar.

Kevin
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Re: Calc usability improvements

In reply to this post by Patrick Bakker
On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 17:21 -0800, Patrick Bakker wrote:
> COPY & PASTE TO A CELL WITH AN EXISTING VALUE
>
> The first time I copy and pasted a cell formula into another cell
> which already had something in it a dialog came up asking something
> like "This cell already has a value. Are you sure you want to do copy
> a new value in?" EXTREMELY annoying.

So, just to summarize this thread, we have three possible options for
this:

1) no changes,
2) change the polarity of the current dialog so that the user *unchecks*
the check box to dismiss future popups of the dialog, or
3) remove this entirely.

And based on how I read all the inputs on this thread, 2) is the
preferred solution by the vast majority of people.

Is this a fair assessment?  If so, I'd say let's make this change on the
master branch.

Kohei

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Re: Calc usability improvements

At 9:47am -0500 Mon, 15 Nov 2010, Kohei Yoshida wrote:

> On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 17:21 -0800, Patrick Bakker wrote:
>> COPY&  PASTE TO A CELL WITH AN EXISTING VALUE
>>
>> The first time I copy and pasted a cell formula into another cell
>> which already had something in it a dialog came up asking something
>> like "This cell already has a value. Are you sure you want to do copy
>> a new value in?" EXTREMELY annoying.
>
> So, just to summarize this thread, we have three possible options for
> this:
>
> 1) no changes,
> 2) change the polarity of the current dialog so that the user *unchecks*
> the check box to dismiss future popups of the dialog, or
> 3) remove this entirely.
>
> And based on how I read all the inputs on this thread, 2) is the
> preferred solution by the vast majority of people.
>
> Is this a fair assessment?  If so, I'd say let's make this change on the
> master branch.

Heh, I think the only dissenter was me, and I already pointed out that I
don't know what I was smoking last week.  :-)

So yes, I believe you've made an accurate assessment.

Cheers,

Kevin
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