Change icon?

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Alexandro Colorado Alexandro Colorado
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 20:12:47 -0600, Ivan M. <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> Hi Graham, all,
>
> On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Graham Lauder <[hidden email]>  
> wrote:
>> [...]
>> The paper plane is cool, I like it better than the folded page, however  
>> that
>> is just an aesthetic judgement, from a practical branding POV the paper  
>> loses
>> under the uniqueness criteria.
>
> IMO, the paper page is not a metaphor we should extend too much. The
> Document Foundation/LibO logo is fine because it's close to the actual
> symbol used for representing a wide variety of digital data formats.
> However, a paper plane takes the metaphor too literally. LibreOffice
> is a digital product; we're supposed to be living in the paperless age
> (it's not the reality, I know, but it's not a bad thing to aspire to).
> Linking the brand too closely with physical paper links it with the
> past. I don't think there are many people out there who will embrace a
> paper-based mascot (it won't be warm and cuddly - it'll give you
> papercuts!)
>
> - Ivan.
>

I haven't own a printer in years. ODF is not about paper, is about data. I  
agree with Ivan, our goal is not to kill trees, our goal is to make people  
more productive by creating data.

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

Hi, :-)

I'm proactively contacting people with graphic design skills, to try
and attract them to join the LibO project. My current source for
possible contributors is http://www.csszengarden.com/, where there's a
lot of beautiful work showcased.

Has anyone got any suggestions about sites and ways to locate potential talents?

David Nelson

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Ivan M. Ivan M.
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

Hi David,

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 9:05 PM, David Nelson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi, :-)
>
> I'm proactively contacting people with graphic design skills, to try
> and attract them to join the LibO project. My current source for
> possible contributors is http://www.csszengarden.com/, where there's a
> lot of beautiful work showcased.

I thought you were going to look specifically in the open source
world? CSS Zen Garden is nice enough in terms of design
talent/showcase, but I'm sure those designers get loads of emails
already from anyone and everyone.

> Has anyone got any suggestions about sites and ways to locate potential talents?

How about well known open source contributors as you mentioned in your
earlier email, and various Linux-based distro art/graphics/branding
teams? It would be nice to have people from various distros' artwork
teams work together and tell us how we can make our branding stronger
so that they don't end up replacing it all with their own substitutes,
as was the case with OOo?

- Ivan.

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Ivan M. Ivan M.
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

Hi David,

quick addendum :)

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 10:19 PM, Ivan M. <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [...] It would be nice to have people from various distros' artwork
> teams work together and tell us how we can make our branding stronger
> so that they don't end up replacing it all with their own substitutes,
> as was the case with OOo?

Sorry, that last sentence wasn't supposed to have a question mark. The
reason I'm correcting it is because it gives a certain tone to the
message that I don't want to imply. It was just meant to be a
suggestion :)

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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Hi David,

Le 08/11/10 22:57, David Nelson a écrit :
> Hi, :-)
>
> They can certainly copyright their particular version. However, IANAL,
> but I don't think they can copyright the whole concept of a paper
> plane in general. Anyway, La Poste? Those guys can hardly stagger out
> of bed in the morning... I'd be surprised if there would be a
> problem... Anyway, their logo is in fact a bird, not a plane...


Think again, they can and have sued people for trademark infringement of
the marks they use to promote their business. Y'all should be checking
whether the "plane" concept has been filed as a trademark in association
with "office activity", "computing", or media (in the largest senses).


BTW, I am a lawyer, specialising in intellectual property.

Alex


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by Ivan M.
Hi Ivan, :-)

I understood what you meant. It's a good idea, and I'll bear that in
mind. Meanwhile, if anyone else has any other suggestions, please do
chip in.

David Nelson

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by Alex Thurgood
Hi Alex, :-)

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 19:29, Alexander Thurgood
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> BTW, I am a lawyer, specialising in intellectual property.

While I don't have any obsession with this paper plane concept, it's
the only mascot proposal I've yet heard, so I'm just interested to
follow the idea through to its logical conclusion: adoption or
rejection by the TDF guys.

La Poste's logo is actually a bird... any suggestion that it's a plane
- paper or otherwise - is actually erroneous.

Since *you* are a lawyer and an intellectual property specialist,
would there be any chance that *you* could maybe check the copyright
status out for us?

A big thanks on behalf of the community if so... ;-)

David Nelson

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

Hi, :-)

I'm hoping that we'll hear back soon from Lucas about the concept he
suggested, and I just feel that it would be nice to be supportive of
him in the further development of his idea, with constructive
discussion, so that it can be placed before TDF for consideration. ;-)

David Nelson

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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by davidnelson


> Since *you* are a lawyer and an intellectual property specialist,
> would there be any chance that *you* could maybe check the copyright
> status out for us?
>

Copyright status is not really the one to be worrying about, at least
not IMHO. Copyright protection is not ubiquitous, contrary to popular
belief. It depends on lots of different things, i.e. whether the
territory in which copyright is to be enforced or recognised actually
recognises the right as such, whether or not registration is required,
whether or not the territory has signed up to international copyright
conventions, the nature and physical reality of the creator or its
assignee, and above all, whether the work for which protection is sought
or claimed is "original", or "new" or "distinctive" or "derived from
other works" or "bears the imprint of its creator", these latter
expressions being particular to a given territory and its accompanying
legal system. So there is no easy answer to give when determining
copyright status, since it is highly dependent on national legislation
and jurisprudence.


Trademark law has similar constraints of course, but is generally the
object of internationally and mutually recognised treaties, and "easier"
to apply, since the right either exists (as in has been filed for as a
trademark registration) or doesn't. Rights acquired through use are on
the whole only now of importance in the US, where usage in state
commerce on the one hand, and federal trademark registrations on the
other, rely on different laws to be applicable (the first being state
legislation, and the second being federal legislation). The main
advantage of trademark law is that using it is relatively swift and easy
for a trademark holder, including obtaining injunctive relief and
summary judgments, because it relies on a filing, the limits of which
are fairly easy to determine.


It is not for nothing that Sun had a legal department to deal with these
issues (both copyright and trademarks) :-))


So, rather than looking at copyright, it would be better to trawl
through the national trademark registries, where available, and see if
anything covering the activities intended by LibreOffice has been filed
as a stylised airplane. Graphical trademark searches are often
notoriously difficult to carry out, even when they are possible (not all
countries have databases, and many of them do not include graphical
representations of logos or logotypes.


Alex


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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

Le 09/11/10 14:54, Alexander Thurgood a écrit :

Oh, and I forgot to throw in registered and unregistered industrial
design rights ;-), which are cumulative with copyright in some
jurisdictions and mutually exclusive of copyrights (but not trademarks)
in others :-))

Enough to give any sane creator a major migraine.


Alex



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Benjamin Horst Benjamin Horst
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by davidnelson
On Nov 9, 2010, at 6:30 AM, David Nelson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Ivan, :-)
>
> I understood what you meant. It's a good idea, and I'll bear that in
> mind. Meanwhile, if anyone else has any other suggestions, please do
> chip in.

David:

Have you tried-- http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/2010/

-Ben
>
>

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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Le 09/11/10 13:53, David Nelson a écrit :

>
> Since *you* are a lawyer and an intellectual property specialist,
> would there be any chance that *you* could maybe check the copyright
> status out for us?
>

A very quick search in the European Community trademark database for the
words "paper plane" threw up 3 results :

- one owned by Nintendo, smack bang in the classes of goods and services
in which LibreOffice would be active ;

- and two others called "Paper Planes Magazine" owned by PUBLI GRAFIC
EDITORES, SOCIEDAD LIMITADA.


In the Hague Design Right database, a search for the keywords "avion"
and "papier":

http://www.wipo.int/cgi-hag/guest/ifetch5?FRE+HAGUE-ALL.vdb+12-00+41312969-REVERSE+0+0+25920+F-FRE+1+1+1+25+SEP-0/HITNUM,B-FRE,,+DE%2favion+AND+DE%2fpapier+



This is naturally just a sample of what is out there.


Alex




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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

Hi Alex, :-)

Thanks for your time on that... I guess that puts a stopper on the
paper plane mascot idea then?

David Nelson

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by Benjamin Horst
Hi Ben, :-)

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 22:47, Benjamin Horst <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Have you tried-- http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/2010/

Thanks for that link. I'll check it out and see what I can harvest
from it. If you happen to think of more, don't hesitate to give a
heads-up. ;-)

David Nelson

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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Hi David,

Le 09/11/10 16:01, David Nelson a écrit :
> Hi Alex, :-)
>
> Thanks for your time on that... I guess that puts a stopper on the
> paper plane mascot idea then?


Hmm, well, I don't really think the Foundation (or should I say the
German OpenOffice.org Verein, since they are currently hosting and
taking contributions and could be seen to be the responsible legal
entity) can afford a potentially damaging and expensive trademark suit
before it even officially has any legal existence ;-) And that just in
one region of the globe.

It would be rather embarassing for the project to find itself in the
press for all the wrong reasons just after it had started up, IMHO.


Alex


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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

Le 09/11/10 17:07, Alexander Thurgood a écrit :
>
> It would be rather embarassing for the project to find itself in the
> press for all the wrong reasons just after it had started up, IMHO.
>

Having said that, it could be argued that the inclusion of a graphical
representation of a paper plane in a more complex semi-figurative
representation (i.e. the proposed icons) is not likely to cause
confusion in the mind of the general public, although I'm sure Nintendo
could make like difficult if it wanted to...the question as ever comes
down to who today has the money and guts to slog it out with a big name
corporation that has a past history of asserting its IP rights. If the
Foundation/Community/SC really wants to go with this, maybe they should
get in touch with the FSF legal department.


Alex


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

Le 2010-11-09 11:13, Alexander Thurgood a écrit :

> Le 09/11/10 17:07, Alexander Thurgood a écrit :
>>
>> It would be rather embarassing for the project to find itself in the
>> press for all the wrong reasons just after it had started up, IMHO.
>>
>
> Having said that, it could be argued that the inclusion of a graphical
> representation of a paper plane in a more complex semi-figurative
> representation (i.e. the proposed icons) is not likely to cause
> confusion in the mind of the general public, although I'm sure Nintendo
> could make like difficult if it wanted to...the question as ever comes
> down to who today has the money and guts to slog it out with a big name
> corporation that has a past history of asserting its IP rights. If the
> Foundation/Community/SC really wants to go with this, maybe they should
> get in touch with the FSF legal department.
>
>
> Alex
>
>

Thanks Alex. Just for information, are you willing to help out with the
legal aspects of the branding of LibO? It would really be handy if you
could. We are often a little naive when proposing some of these things
such as icons, mascot etc. We would definitely need some one talented in
this domain.

Just wondering.

Marc


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toki toki
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by Ivan M.
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On 11/09/2010 09:24 AM, Ivan M. wrote:


> Sorry, that last sentence wasn't supposed to have a question mark.

I read that question mark as asking if other people also thought it
would be a good idea to contact the various distros, asking for advice
on how to improve our branding, so that they (the other distros) don't
replace our branding.

jonathon

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Lucas Filho Lucas Filho
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Res: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by Alex Thurgood
Hello Community,


Of all the logos that I have observed to create the logo, the vast majority use
vectorized images only. And a Google search on paper airplane can see that many
images are repeated by changing the angle, color, dash ...:

http://www.google.com.br/images?hl=pt-BR&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&biw=1280&bih=615&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=paper+plane&btnG=Pesquisar&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=


The question is: Vectorizing (pass JPG to SVG for example) a picture of a paper
airplane is the misuse of image?

And it's not uncommon to have similar logos:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_dp0nVjfNMYM/Sw1Z4I5XatI/AAAAAAAAAIY/evekkk8peYE/s1600/logos.PNG


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dp0nVjfNMYM/SxVuBxytZhI/AAAAAAAAAIo/mMPu-SxKkkQ/s1600/logos2.PNG


We can not be copy / paste, but we can copy / "inspire" and paste.

As many already know I use Google to write: (
As I understand it in some e-mails the name Flight of paper is being thought of
as a new name in place of LibreOffice (pardon the question). If so, not cool.


 
Até mais,
Lucas Filho
Open-Ce Tecnologias e Serviços
http://www.open-ce.com.br

::@strogildo - Educação a distância
http://astrogildo.blogspot.com

Coordenador Estadual GUBRO-Ceará
http://www.broffice.org/gubro-ce

Blog Pessoal
http://lucasfilho.blogspot.com


Agradecemos a Deus por tudo



----- Mensagem original ----
De: Alexander Thurgood <[hidden email]>
Para: [hidden email]
Enviadas: Terça-feira, 9 de Novembro de 2010 13:13:46
Assunto: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

Le 09/11/10 17:07, Alexander Thurgood a écrit :
>
> It would be rather embarassing for the project to find itself in the
> press for all the wrong reasons just after it had started up, IMHO.
>

Having said that, it could be argued that the inclusion of a graphical
representation of a paper plane in a more complex semi-figurative
representation (i.e. the proposed icons) is not likely to cause
confusion in the mind of the general public, although I'm sure Nintendo
could make like difficult if it wanted to...the question as ever comes
down to who today has the money and guts to slog it out with a big name
corporation that has a past history of asserting its IP rights. If the
Foundation/Community/SC really wants to go with this, maybe they should
get in touch with the FSF legal department.


Alex


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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: Res: Res: Re: Change icon?

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi Marc,

Le 09/11/10 20:01, Marc Paré a écrit :

>
> Thanks Alex. Just for information, are you willing to help out with the
> legal aspects of the branding of LibO? It would really be handy if you
> could. We are often a little naive when proposing some of these things
> such as icons, mascot etc. We would definitely need some one talented in
> this domain.

Yes, with the caveat that I can not possibly know each and every law of
each and every country in which LibreOffice is going to be deployed ;-),
but where I can help out, I shall try. Bear in mind that the US and, to
a certain extent, even Canada, have different implementations and
legal/legal policy viewpoints with regard to IP. It would be difficult
for me to give advice about those aspects, and indeed, could be
considered as illegal practice of law in those countries. This is
probably one of the reasons why there are so few attorneys active in
general in opensource projects (other than their general dislike of pro
bono work), except to express themselves in very general terms or with
respect to a particular territory.


Alex


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