Design for the split controls and tabs

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Jean-Francois Nifenecker Jean-Francois Nifenecker
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Re: "Document Saved" indicator

Le 31/05/2012 21:29, Kohei Yoshida a écrit :

>
> There is another reason for that.  Document not only store its content
> but also view properties, but a change in the view properties doesn't
> trigger a document modified status.  Here, view properties include
> things like (in case of spreadsheet) active sheet, cursor position, zoom
> level etc.
>
> But quite often you want to store the view properties after they've
> changed, and always enabling the save action allows this.  Disabling the
> save action when the document content is unchanged even though the view
> has changed is IMO quite unfriendly in this regard.
>
> Also, it's IMO wrong to trigger a document modified status on view
> change.

I beg to differ.

A document is either changed and needs saving or is not and... doesn't.
Conversely, if changing a property needs saving, then the document *is*
changed.

>
> Also, the majority of applications that *I* personally touch always
> enable the save icon.  Obviously there are some personal variations with
> experiences here.

Anyway, the save action should trigger some feedback when it is done.
The "button disabled" or "toolbar message" both convey that information.

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Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: "Document Saved" indicator

2012/6/3 Jean-Francois Nifenecker <[hidden email]>

> Le 31/05/2012 21:29, Kohei Yoshida a écrit :
>
>
>> There is another reason for that.  Document not only store its content
>> but also view properties, but a change in the view properties doesn't
>> trigger a document modified status.  Here, view properties include
>> things like (in case of spreadsheet) active sheet, cursor position, zoom
>> level etc.
>>
>> But quite often you want to store the view properties after they've
>> changed, and always enabling the save action allows this.  Disabling the
>> save action when the document content is unchanged even though the view
>> has changed is IMO quite unfriendly in this regard.
>>
>> Also, it's IMO wrong to trigger a document modified status on view
>> change.
>>
>
> I beg to differ.
>
> A document is either changed and needs saving or is not and... doesn't.
> Conversely, if changing a property needs saving, then the document *is*
> changed.


+1

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Kohei Yoshida Kohei Yoshida
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Re: "Document Saved" indicator

On 06/03/2012 11:25 AM, Mirek M. wrote:

> 2012/6/3 Jean-Francois Nifenecker<[hidden email]>
>
>> Le 31/05/2012 21:29, Kohei Yoshida a écrit :
>>
>>
>>> There is another reason for that.  Document not only store its content
>>> but also view properties, but a change in the view properties doesn't
>>> trigger a document modified status.  Here, view properties include
>>> things like (in case of spreadsheet) active sheet, cursor position, zoom
>>> level etc.
>>>
>>> But quite often you want to store the view properties after they've
>>> changed, and always enabling the save action allows this.  Disabling the
>>> save action when the document content is unchanged even though the view
>>> has changed is IMO quite unfriendly in this regard.
>>>
>>> Also, it's IMO wrong to trigger a document modified status on view
>>> change.
>>>
>>
>> I beg to differ.
>>
>> A document is either changed and needs saving or is not and... doesn't.
>> Conversely, if changing a property needs saving, then the document *is*
>> changed.
>
>
> +1

It's not a matter of opinion, but of technicality.  Any software that
deals with complex documents is designed this way, and that's not going
to change it.

Not to mention changing this principle would basically means that you
are writing a new app from scratch, since everything else is built on
this principle in our code base.  I for one am not interested in such
effort.

That's all I have to say.  If people still don't see my point after
this, then I suggest we agree to disagree, and avoid further wasting
time on this topic.

Peace,

Kohei

Kohei



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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: "Document Saved" indicator

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi all,

@Christoph:
> Well, that was the case some versions ago - then the current behavior
> (save icon is always active) has been introduced. Reason: There has been
> customer feedback targeted at the Sun OOo UX Team that people wish to
> press that button at any time - just to be sure that the document is
> really saved. So here its not about real logic, but about people to feel
> "safe".

If that was the case, then it would have been a better idea to focus
on the following things:
* get document backup/restoration reliable enough for everyone
(something like backup-as-you-type maybe)
* make sure, Ooo doesn't crash (and if it crashes, that it doesn't
take all opened documents with it – for instance, similar to how
Chrome separates tabs)

(Yes, that's an arrogant statement coming from a non-developer. I know that.)


> Almost the same is true
> for the current status bar indicator - but of course it's just there
> because of the cool TDF symbolism ;-)

That's a terrible reason to introduce new UI. The world most of us
live in is cluttered with branding and ads, so to me it's not a good
idea to add to this beyond what we actually need to establish a brand.
Long-term, I would love if we could reduce the amount of logos to the
ones contained in the about box and the one in the titlebar. (Splash
screen should go completely at some point and the logo in the start
centre seems unnecessary to me.)
Maybe I'm an extremist here.


> So, finally, if there is a need to further cleanup the status bar, then
> I'd propose to go with "(unsaved)" instead of the asterisk for the title
> bar. Example for unsaved changes:
>        Strategy Document (unsaved) - LibreOffice Writer

I've seen other software go for "(modified)" which is a more positive
word, I think. So, that would be my preferred solution.

To shorten the text in the titlebar again, we could follow the Gnome 2
guidelines and remove the "LibreOffice Writer/Calc/..." part of the
titlebar.


@Jean-Francois:
> A document is either changed and needs saving or is not and... doesn't.
> Conversely, if changing a property needs saving, then the document *is*
> changed.

Maybe it's not quite that simple. There are certain settings (zoom
level, for one) that depend so much on the specific computer (screen,
in this case) that it doesn't make a lot of sense to even save this
information within the file. It would make far more sense to save that
in the LibreOffice configuration itself. This way, you can just save
those settings when the window is closed.
For other settings like caret position within the document, that
approach might not be applicable, however, given my example, if you
put your caret at a different position within a document, then this is
usually done to edit it, thus producing a new saveable state.
Since I am not sure what else is saved within the document, I won't go
on here... I hope you see the point.

In any case, I don't have so much of an opinion about whether to
actually enable the save icon at all times ... both options are fine
with me.
I would, however, like the statusbar indicator to be gone.

Astron.

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Kohei Yoshida Kohei Yoshida
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Re: "Document Saved" indicator

On 06/03/2012 12:11 PM, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> @Christoph:
>> Well, that was the case some versions ago - then the current behavior
>> (save icon is always active) has been introduced. Reason: There has been
>> customer feedback targeted at the Sun OOo UX Team that people wish to
>> press that button at any time - just to be sure that the document is
>> really saved. So here its not about real logic, but about people to feel
>> "safe".
>
> If that was the case, then it would have been a better idea to focus
> on the following things:
> * get document backup/restoration reliable enough for everyone
> (something like backup-as-you-type maybe)

So, I agree with the idea itself.  But for this to work comfortably the
save operation must be fast enough (since backup just means saving the
current document somewhere on disk), and that's the hard part.  Actually
calling this "hard" itself is a massive understatement, but I won't go
into the details.

Having said that, making the load/save operation faster is always our
priority.  It just takes a long time to achieve it (i.e. in units of years).

> * make sure, Ooo doesn't crash (and if it crashes, that it doesn't
> take all opened documents with it – for instance, similar to how
> Chrome separates tabs)

So, the technical description of this is to "put each application in a
separate process", which Chrome does.  This is one of the things I've
been very much interested in personally, but comes with a steep
technical hurdle as well.

That said, someday I'd like us to give this a try, perhaps when all this
effort to clean up the code base etc. settles down a bit.  This would
also solve many others issues that we currently have in our code base,
not just the issue of crashes.  So, to me, this is a goal worth chasing.

Kohei

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nick rundy nick rundy
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RE: "Document Saved" indicator

In reply to this post by Kohei Yoshida

> *sigh*  I guess the mis-use is very much prevalent.


I was not aware that the Status Bar communicated save-status.

I suspect the majority of LO users are also not aware of this. It is easy to see why users have adopted a "mis-use" of the Save Icon, assuming it is a mis-use. Users have an icon they click to save a document. It is a fairly well sized icon. Whey they go to click the icon and it is grayed out, no save is possible. No save possible = nothing is in need of saving. Hence the icon becomes a "communicator" as well as a "saver." Whether a correct judgment or not, it is a common induction people are making.

But you say it is not reliable to rely on the save icon to show modification status? That the status bar is a more accurate indicator of this?







> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] "Document Saved" indicator
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 22:57:33 -0400
>
> On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 22:54 -0400, Jay Lozier wrote:
> > The grayed out Save button in LO also indicates that the document in
> > unchanged since the last change. This is a very handy at a glance
> > feature to know the save status.
>

>
> Since we are now going in circles, I'll resign myself from further
> discussion.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> Kohei
>
> --
> Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc
>
>
> --
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Kohei Yoshida Kohei Yoshida
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Re: "Document Saved" indicator

On 06/04/2012 08:54 AM, nick rundy wrote:

> But you say it is not reliable to rely on the save icon to show modification status? That the status bar is a more accurate indicator of this?

Yes.  For now it's the indicator in the status bar.  And (as I
understand it) folks here are discussing about moving it to somewhere
else to places such as the title bar.

Kohei

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nick rundy nick rundy
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RE: "Document Saved" indicator


Titlebar might not be the best place to move such an indicator to. Consider distros like Ubuntu that integrate the Titlebar into the top panel when window is maximized. Is there a reason to not have the Save Icon act as the indicator--it  just won't work if it's an icon and therefore has to follow the "icon rules"?

> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:13:43 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] "Document Saved" indicator
>
> On 06/04/2012 08:54 AM, nick rundy wrote:
>
> > But you say it is not reliable to rely on the save icon to show modification status? That the status bar is a more accurate indicator of this?
>
> Yes.  For now it's the indicator in the status bar.  And (as I
> understand it) folks here are discussing about moving it to somewhere
> else to places such as the title bar.
>
> Kohei
>
> --
> Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc
>
> --
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Kévin PEIGNOT-3 Kévin PEIGNOT-3
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Re: "Document Saved" indicator

Hi

Ubuntu wanted to make Windicators (indicators related to the current
Window, included in the titlebar see here [1] and here [2], but no news
since a long time. Maybe we should ask Canonical whether it will be done if
it's the only distro/OS that as the problem.

[1] : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators
[2] : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/Windicators/DanielsWindicators

Kévin

2012/6/7 nick rundy <[hidden email]>

>
> Titlebar might not be the best place to move such an indicator to.
> Consider distros like Ubuntu that integrate the Titlebar into the top panel
> when window is maximized. Is there a reason to not have the Save Icon act
> as the indicator--it  just won't work if it's an icon and therefore has to
> follow the "icon rules"?
>
> > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:13:43 -0400
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] "Document Saved" indicator
> >
> > On 06/04/2012 08:54 AM, nick rundy wrote:
> >
> > > But you say it is not reliable to rely on the save icon to show
> modification status? That the status bar is a more accurate indicator of
> this?
> >
> > Yes.  For now it's the indicator in the status bar.  And (as I
> > understand it) folks here are discussing about moving it to somewhere
> > else to places such as the title bar.
> >
> > Kohei
> >
> > --
> > Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc
> >
> > --
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> deleted
> >
>
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>

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