Do not support writing to OOXML format

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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Do not support writing to OOXML format

I will not support or use LibreOffice
  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is
absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle
of using ODF and open source formats.

See the following:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I participate the people
stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to LibreOffice.


--
_____________________________________________________________________________


      Larry I. Gusaas

*Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese *


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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

I support Larry's position.

Carl Symons

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Larry Gusaas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
> do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>
> See the following:
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>
> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
> LibreOffice.
>
>
> --
> _____________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>     Larry I. Gusaas
>

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Steven Shelton Steven Shelton
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Larry Gusaas

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
 
On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> I will not support or use LibreOffice
> until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this
> file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this
> proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using
> ODF and open source formats.

On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two
wrongs make a right? I thought the idea behind this particular office
suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's
why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to
use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they
are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding
by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have
to buy MS products.

- --
Steven Shelton
Deputy Undersecretary for Made-up Titles
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Gordon Burgess-Parker Gordon Burgess-Parker
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Larry Gusaas
On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:

> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary
> format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open
> source formats.
>
> See the following:
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507 
>
> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>
> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
> LibreOffice.
>
>
OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format
by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid....

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RGB.ES RGB.ES
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Carl Symons
"open"xml is a really bad thing for the community. It was a shame its
approval by iso, specially if we consider there was no working
implementation of it (not even msoffice support that "standard"!!) By
implementing this format on LibO we are not helping to improve the
(absurd myth of) "interoperativity": we are only helping M$ to have an
excuse (the only possible one: an independent implementation!) for the
existence of those formats.
To load those formats is OK if the file will be converted to ODF. To
load those files in order save again on that absurd "standard" is a
really wrong move.
There is one thing that it is now more important than an opensource
office suite, and that thing is a really open standard about file
formats. We must protect ODF! Giving life support to ooxml is exactly
on the opposite direction of that goal.
Just my 2¢

2010/12/30 Carl Symons <[hidden email]>:

> I support Larry's position.
>
> Carl Symons
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Larry Gusaas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
>> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
>> do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>>
>> See the following:
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>>
>> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
>> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
>> LibreOffice.
>>
>>
>> --
>> _____________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>     Larry I. Gusaas
>>
>
> --
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>
>

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RGB.ES RGB.ES
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Gordon Burgess-Parker
2010/12/30 Gordon Burgess-Parker <[hidden email]>:
> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
> default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid....
>

That means nothing. MSOffice will be able to read the previous formats
for a while, I think...

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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Gordon Burgess-Parker

On 2010/12/30 2:19 PM  Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing
> you can do about it I'm afraid....

Yes you can do something about it. Don't enable writing in that format. Use PDF's for
communicating. If a MS user needs to be able to modify a document, use .doc format. There is no
need to use .docx format. MS Office 2008 and 2011 can still read .doc files.


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_____________________________________________________________________________


      Larry I. Gusaas

*Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese *


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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Gordon Burgess-Parker
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>>
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
>> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
>> do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>>
>> See the following:
>>
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>>
>> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
>> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
>> LibreOffice.
>>
>>
> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
> default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid....
>

MS may create documents in OOXML by default. LibO can read them too.

Larry Gusaas' original point was to avoid helping MS with this
anti-open scheme. LibO should not help MS "...spread OOXML by enabling
writing in this file format..." In other words, make it so that LibO
can _read_ OOXML documents, but not _write/save as_ this format.
Enable LibO to _write_ in MS' proprietary .doc format, but not their
fake "open" format. It is not open. The intent of this fake file
format is to damage open software applications.

It is similar to what they did with web standards, their own special
Java, their own special C++. MS bribed their way into getting OOXML
accepted as an ISO open standard. Truly open applications shouldn't go
along with this scam. MS has suffered very little for their bad
behavior.

Even MS Office users (prior to 2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud.

Read the links in Larry Gusaas' original message in this thread. This
is what the open community is up against. We don't have to go along
with it.

By the way, there is nothing inherently wrong with what MS is doing
here. The U.S. system rewards corporations that flirt with the
boundaries of legality. The Standards Committee went along with this,
and the U.S. hapless regulatory system can't/won't come to the rescue.
It is up to the open community to deal with it. Don't make it possible
for an open application to write in a file format that seeks to damage
it.

Carl Symons

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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Steven Shelton

On 2010/12/30 2:14 PM  Steven Shelton wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>> until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this
>> file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this
>> proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using
>> ODF and open source formats.
> On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two
> wrongs make a right? I thought the idea behind this particular office
> suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's
> why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to
> use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they
> are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding
> by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have
> to buy MS products.

You have it backward. If LibO writes in OOXML they are doing Microsofts bidiing. The world is
slowly demanding open document formats. By supporting MS proprietary formats LibO is helping to
perpetuate their hegemony.


--
---------------------

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
Website:  http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese



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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Steven Shelton
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Steven Shelton
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>> until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this
>> file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this
>> proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using
>> ODF and open source formats.
>
> On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two
> wrongs make a right?

No that is not what MS does. MS reads & writes in proprietary formats.
They do not support open source formats. LibO should read any format
and have the ability to write in proprietary formats. It should not
write in proprietary formats masquerading as open formats. LibO should
not go along with MS' chicanery. LibO is not engaging in deceptive
practices.

I thought the idea behind this particular office
> suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's
> why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to
> use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they
> are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding
> by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have
> to buy MS products.
>
> - --
> Steven Shelton

Any file format would still be accessible to read. If someone sends
you a docx file, you will be able to open it. You can send a .doc (no
x; no OOXML) file back to to them; they will be able to read it with
their MS application. By sending a .docx file, the only thing
accomplished is that MS has weakened open source.

People can still exchange files in MS formats. The other user will
still be able to use their MS applications. Not allowing docx _write_
ensures that MS nefarious scheme has been weakened. Other than that,
no effect.

If the LibO community doesn't take a stand on this issue, who else
will? Simply put, MS is doing false advertising. Do you think that the
FTC is gonna do anything about it? Not a prayer. MS has their cover
with the Standards Committee decision. And how likely is it that some
U.S. CongressCritter would allow the FTC to take action anyway?

Carl Symons

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BRM BRM
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Carl Symons
----- Original Message ----

> From: Carl Symons <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thu, December 30, 2010 3:47:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On  30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> >>
> >> I will not support  or use LibreOffice
> >>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling  writing in this file
> >> format. There is absolutely no need to write in  this proprietary format.
To

> >> do so is contrary to the principle of  using ODF and open source formats.
> >>
> >> See the  following:
> >>
> >>  
>http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>
> >> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
> >>
> >> ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups  I
> >> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
> >>  LibreOffice.
> >>
> >>
> > OOXML will spread anyway because MS  Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
> > default. Nothing you can do  about it I'm afraid....
> >
>
> MS may create documents in OOXML by  default. LibO can read them too.
>
> Larry Gusaas' original point was to  avoid helping MS with this
> anti-open scheme. LibO should not help MS  "...spread OOXML by enabling
> writing in this file format..." In other words,  make it so that LibO
> can _read_ OOXML documents, but not _write/save as_ this  format.
> Enable LibO to _write_ in MS' proprietary .doc format, but not  their
> fake "open" format. It is not open. The intent of this fake  file
> format is to damage open software applications.

Agree. LibO should only read OOXML if anything at all.
 
> It is similar to  what they did with web standards, their own special
> Java, their own special  C++. MS bribed their way into getting OOXML
> accepted as an ISO open standard.  Truly open applications shouldn't go
> along with this scam. MS has suffered  very little for their bad
> behavior.
>
> Even MS Office users (prior to  2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud.
>

Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone supporting
ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other
formats - as third party as possible.
In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save
support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS
format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF.
We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly
becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a
few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF
too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations,
and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before
OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so
many other formats to get people to convert to their formats.
After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as
to why.

Ben

P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play.
P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by  
default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an  organizational
standard. It's only those that don't that continue using  the defaults.

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BRM BRM
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

----- Original Message ----

> From: BRM <[hidden email]>
> >
> > Even MS Office users (prior to  2007) have had  trouble with this docx
fraud.
> >
>
> Perhaps LibO and all other Open  Source projects - and perhaps anyone
>supporting
>
> ODF for that matter - should  treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other
> formats - as third party as  possible.
> In other words, read support should be something that users must  enable; Save

> support should not be possible - it must be converted to either  an older MS
> format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF.
> We need to force MS to support  ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly
>
> becoming the world standard  at least at the government level - which means in
>a
>
> few years most  organizations that support governments will need to support ODF
>
> too, and a  few years after that organizations that support those
>organizations,
>
> and so  forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time
>before
>
> OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.
>
> The idea of  LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so
> many other  formats to get people to convert to their formats.
> After all, what's good for  the goose is good for the gander, no?
>
> Of course, all functionality should  be dually advertised - with explanations
>as
>
> to why.
>

Oh, and one other point - why risk the legal liability?
Even ISO OOXML is burdened by licensing issues; but then again - MS continues to
not support ISO OOXML and instead use their own 'enhanced' version which
probably has far more legal liabilities than ISO OOXML.

And while MS Office has moved on to newer versions of OOXML, ISO OOXML has not
been updated - I'm not even sure Alex Brown pays attention to it any more as he
seems to just be nit-picking ODF at the moment (see his posts on the ODF Office
Comments list).

$0.02 USD

Ben


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Barbara Duprey Barbara Duprey
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by BRM
On 12/30/2010 4:14 PM, BRM wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----
<snip>
> We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly
> becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a
> few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF
> too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations,
> and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before
> OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

Unfortunately, MS now claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing files with the ODF
extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon discover that the MS implementation is
not really compatible with other ODF implementations (most notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not
just that). I think the MS plan here is to say that *they've* got the true standard implementation
and everybody else is wrong. Since that (basically proprietary) version of ODF is now distributed as
part of MS Office, it's just about everywhere, so they have the numbers on their side. That seems to
leave everybody else once again playing "catch-up" with MS, which can then simply do as it pleases
with the standard, being the 600-pound gorilla in the room. Interoperability issues will than be
charged against the non-MS implementation, making it "safer" for organizations to stay with MS. Am I
being unduly pessimistic here?

> The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so
> many other formats to get people to convert to their formats.
> After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?
>
> Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as
> to why.
>
> Ben
>
> P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play.
> P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by
> default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an  organizational
> standard. It's only those that don't that continue using  the defaults.

It looks as if the general opinion here is that reading OOXML is a good idea, and writing it is not.
I agree.

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Andy Brown Andy Brown
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Gordon Burgess-Parker
On Thu Dec 30 2010 12:19:55 GMT-0800 (PST)  Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format
> by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid....
>

If M$ were to use the proper standard then I would have no problem with
the OOXML usage.  The problem comes in when M$ uses their version
instead of the standard, (see
http://www.adjb.net/post/Microsoft-Fails-the-Standards-Test.aspx ).
Reading the OPs links and following links from the different post leads
to far more interesting reading.  It is funny that the Sun plugin for
MSO had better support for ODF than the built-in support from M$.  M$
has no interest in any open format standard so they do everything,
including sabotage to do away with them.

My 2cents.

Andy

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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Barbara Duprey
----- Original Message ----

> From: Barbara Duprey <[hidden email]>
> <snip>
> > We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have  pointed out ODF is
>quickly
> > becoming the world standard at least at the  government level - which means
>in a
> > few years most organizations that  support governments will need to support
>ODF
> > too, and a few years after  that organizations that support those
>organizations,
> > and so forth. MS  has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time
>before
> > OOXML  (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.
>
> Unfortunately, MS now  claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing
>files with the ODF  extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon
>discover that the MS  implementation is not really compatible with other ODF
>implementations (most  notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I
>think the MS plan here is  to say that *they've* got the true standard
>implementation and everybody else is  wrong. Since that (basically proprietary)
>version of ODF is now distributed as  part of MS Office, it's just about
>everywhere, so they have the numbers on their  side. That seems to leave
>everybody else once again playing "catch-up" with MS,  which can then simply do
>as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound  gorilla in the room.
>Interoperability issues will than be charged against the  non-MS implementation,
>making it "safer" for organizations to stay with MS. Am I  being unduly
>pessimistic here?
>

True, they do have a plug-in available to support ODF, but (last I checked) it
is not part of the default install - you must install it separately, and it only
supports Office 2007 and later, while they pushed OOXML support out to Office
2003 and possibly earlier versions too.

However, they do not (again at least last I checked) let you save it via the
normal means, e.g. Save/Save As dialog, and you cannot make it the default.
They also follow only the 1.0 or may be the 1.1 version that made it through ISO
refusing to do anything that is not in the ISO version, and then doing it in a
rather broken manner.

However, they are not the 600-pound gorilla in the ODF market given the dozens
of implementations that more or less agree on how most things should be done.

For instance, unlike all other implementations (again last I checked) MS wrote
the value of the cell to the normal location for an ODS spreadsheet while
writing the formula to a MS Office specific namespace - whereas everyone else
write the formula to the cell location and not application specific namespaces.
Effectively making MS Office ODF files non-interoperable with everyone else. I
think they may also drop all other application specific data too; or may be they
were kind enough to leave that intact, don't remember on that front. Conversely,
I think there is likely enough interoperable software out there that it can be
easily pointed out that MS has the broken implementation in such cases.

Ben


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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by BRM
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:14 PM, BRM <[hidden email]> wrote:
several thread entries truncated

>> >>
>> >> I will not support  or use LibreOffice
>> >>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling  writing in this file
>> >> format. There is absolutely no need to write in  this proprietary format.
> To
>> >> do so is contrary to the principle of  using ODF and open source formats.
>> >>
>> >> See the  following:
>> >>
>> >>
>>http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>>
>> >> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>> >>
>> >> ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups  I
>> >> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
>> >>  LibreOffice.

One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format.

>
> Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone supporting
> ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other
> formats - as third party as possible.
> In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save
> support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS
> format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF.
> We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly
> becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a
> few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF
> too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations,
> and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before
> OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

As another writer has pointed out, forcing MS in these ways is
self-defeating. MS is not going to be forced in any direction. MS
managers are going to fulfill their legal obligation...make money,
enrich investors. LibO & TDF do not have this requirement. Attempts to
make things difficult for MS will really only make things difficult
for those people who are "required" to use MS products. Many of those
users don't have a choice. It is not appropriate to bruise users in
order to teach MS a lesson...a lesson that they probably won't learn
anyway.

A key point here needs amplification. As a USA citizen (even in
Washington State, up the road from Redmond) and an open source
community participant, my view is probably warped...I think that MS
has gone over the line of propriety many times with almost no adverse
consequence. They operate as a de facto monopoly. The US regulatory
agencies have done little to curb this anti-social behavior. To people
who live in another countries, I can only imagine how this behavior
appears. Surveys and anecdotes indicate that computer users in other
countries than the USA report software to be a sovereignty issue. LibO
has an international scope. Governments (Russia recently for example)
are moving to LibO and other open source applications to remove
themselves from the MS hegemony.

Reading a range of formats and offering the ability to save in a range
of formats is generous and supportive of the little person user. Going
along with MS' efforts to destroy the open document format does not,
in the end, support the little person user. MS has a near monopoly;
they use it to the greatest extent possible. The ultimate result of
unethical monopoly behavior is that the monopolist's products drive
other products out. There is no valid reason for aiding MS' efforts to
damage open source.


>
> The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so
> many other formats to get people to convert to their formats.
> After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?
>

No, just because MS does it doesn't make it right. They are using
their market power unfairly. If LibreOffice focuses on serving users
generously, then _reading_ OOXML documents fits. Writing or saving as
OOXML only damages open source applications; there is no benefit to
users (as long as documents can be saved in a legitimate way). OOXML
is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

> Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as
> to why.
>
> Ben
>
> P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play.
> P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by
> default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an  organizational
> standard. It's only those that don't that continue using  the defaults.
>

When somebody buys a new version of Office, their default save format
is docx. I've worked with less sophisticated users who get a new
computer and new Office to work from home. They can't understand why
their teachers (running earlier Office versions) can't open their
file. This is a bad deal that MS has foisted on people.

It is not necessary to make them pay for this bad behavior...it
wouldn't make much difference. But we shouldn't be accomplices to
their crime.

Carl

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Wolf Halton Wolf Halton
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Andy Brown
I have to use office2007 at work and I watch hundreds of core users (college
students) struggle with my formatting requirements for homework assignments.
Most of these are using the company-supplied computers, with office 2007,
most of the time.  Word allows reading and writing odf format. It tends to
mess up fancy document formatting, but the most complicated document
formatting these users do is adding a page number.
The IT department set it up, so I don't know if the Plugin took manual
set-up.

If we could set up docx to save automatically to doc, that might be cool for
us but don't you think that would just annoy core users of ms office? Most
core users of any program just want to use it to perform some task. They
don't care about these format battles.

If we could make a couple of award-winning big-budget movies where format
license was the pivotal plot device, we might have hope of including the
core user in the controversy. I am not sure that deliberate exclusion coming
from the "let's get them before they get us" vibe in this thread is going to
work how we want.

Once all European governments and half of Aisia go to open formats, maybe we
just stop accepting ms formats at all.  This is how ms office got their
crushing grip on general business formatting, isn't it. Before Windows, the
average university or (US) government core user was using WordPerfect on
DOS. Over the next 5-10 years we will probably see a sea-change to *nix,
cloud and open formats, but the focus of LO may have to shift to a SaaS
delivery model to meet the challenges of that change.  If the documents are
shared primarily over the network through a browser, it will be very simple
for those service providers to specify odf if we make the reasons clear
enough, or if we are the providers of those services.

Wolf Halton

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Paul Gress Paul Gress
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Carl Symons
On 12/30/10 08:09 PM, Carl Symons wrote:

>
>>>
>>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>>>
>>>>> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>>>>>
>>>>> ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups  I
>>>>> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
>>>>>   LibreOffice.
> One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format.
>

I checked my OOo, dev m95 (3.4), it doesn't support save as "docx" and 3.3 rc8 (3.3 m18) also doesn't support "docx" in save as.  What version are you using that supports docx?



Also, for what it's worth, saving as a docx to me is a bad idea.  I've imported doc files extensively in the past, straightened them out to view properly, saved as an odt, then saved as a doc again only to find some different formatting doesn't come out correctly with the doc.  I suspect docx will be worse.  I have got many people in the past to convert to OOo.  I will now promote them to Libreoffice.  I cannot move over myself as I use Solaris 11 Express (similar to Opensolaris) which there is no port.

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Olivier Hallot Olivier Hallot
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Larry Gusaas
HI

Em 30-12-2010 18:41, Larry Gusaas escreveu:

>
> On 2010/12/30 2:19 PM Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
>> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this
>> format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid....
>
> Yes you can do something about it. Don't enable writing in that format.
> Use PDF's for communicating. If a MS user needs to be able to modify a
> document, use .doc format. There is no need to use .docx format. MS
> Office 2008 and 2011 can still read .doc files.
>
>

The thing is, *you can* prevent LibreOffice/OOo from writing in
proprietary format. This requires a configuration in one of the xcu/xcs
config files.

Happy new year
--
Olivier Hallot
Founder, Steering Commitee Member - The Document Foundation
Voicing the enterprise
Translation Leader for Brazilian Portuguese

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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

Thank you Olivier for jumping in on this as one of the TDF founders.
And thank you for helping to make LibreOffice happen.

More below...

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Olivier Hallot
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> HI
>
> Em 30-12-2010 18:41, Larry Gusaas escreveu:
>>
>> On 2010/12/30 2:19 PM Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
>>>
>>> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this
>>> format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid....
>>
>> Yes you can do something about it. Don't enable writing in that format.
>> Use PDF's for communicating. If a MS user needs to be able to modify a
>> document, use .doc format. There is no need to use .docx format. MS
>> Office 2008 and 2011 can still read .doc files.
>>
>>
>
> The thing is, *you can* prevent LibreOffice/OOo from writing in proprietary
> format. This requires a configuration in one of the xcu/xcs config files.
>
> Happy new year
> --
> Olivier Hallot

If it is this easy to disable selected formats, I ask that the TDF
Steering Committee take the suggestions in this conversation thread
into consideration. Larry Gusaas has cited some sources (in the thread
starter) that suggest that Microsoft is again (ab)using their
near-monopoly market position to subvert openness. While there's no
need for the TDF to police or punish Microsoft's behavior, there are
strong reasons for the LibreOffice community to stand for and protect
the open nature of LibO applications and their file formats. There is
no reason to support writing/saving as docx/OOXML except to go along
with Microsoft's anti-open fraud and deception.

Carl Symons

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