Do not support writing to OOXML format

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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 2010/12/30 7:09 PM  Carl Symons wrote:
> One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format.

Official OpenOffice.org builds do not support writing to the .docx format.

The Go-OO derivative does write to the .docx format (probably because of the agreement between
Microsoft and Novell). Go-OO is the version used on many Linux distros. There are many reports
on OOo forums of problems caused by the poorly tested additions included in Go-OO.

LibreOffice is based on Go-OO.


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      Larry I. Gusaas

*Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese *



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Mike Hall Mike Hall
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Carl Symons
Maybe saving in ...x formats should be disabled by default so that the
user must make a conscious decision to allow them.

But to some extent this discussion misses two key points:

1) Application quality
The default de-facto format will inevitably follow the dominant
application. It's probably impossible to be a frequent OOO/LibO user
without meeting serious bugs and having ones own list of things that
need to be fixed. I certainly have mine. My professional experience with
MSO was quite different, ie almost no troubling bugs. Apart from any
other consideration, for pretty well any commercial organisation, the
resulting support/user hassle cost of adopting OOO/LibO far exceeds the
cost of adopting MSO, even from scratch for a new organisation. To
illustrate the problem, you just need to inspect the OOO P2 issues which
are regularly postponed release after release. Regretfully, for this
reason it is very difficult to claim that OOO/LibO is a professional
level application. When it is, many more users will flock to it and the
format battle is much more likely to resolve itself in favour of ODF.

2) Chrome OS
In 2011 people will be buying notebooks without hard disks running
Chrome OS, certainly cheaper including much lower support costs,
probably faster too, and these users will be able to work cooperatively
with their data entirely in the cloud. Perhaps >90% of users will
potentially no longer need MSO, OOO, LibO or any of the associated
formats. It's hard to say whether this will be game changing or just
very important, it will depend on how well it works in practice, but
given the self-evident quality and astonishing rate of development of
Google's applications, my money is on game changing.

Mike Hall

On 31/12/2010 05:21, Carl Symons wrote:

> Thank you Olivier for jumping in on this as one of the TDF founders.
> And thank you for helping to make LibreOffice happen.
>
> More below...
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Olivier Hallot
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> HI
>>
>> Em 30-12-2010 18:41, Larry Gusaas escreveu:
>>> On 2010/12/30 2:19 PM Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
>>>> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this
>>>> format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid....
>>> Yes you can do something about it. Don't enable writing in that format.
>>> Use PDF's for communicating. If a MS user needs to be able to modify a
>>> document, use .doc format. There is no need to use .docx format. MS
>>> Office 2008 and 2011 can still read .doc files.
>>>
>>>
>> The thing is, *you can* prevent LibreOffice/OOo from writing in proprietary
>> format. This requires a configuration in one of the xcu/xcs config files.
>>
>> Happy new year
>> --
>> Olivier Hallot
> If it is this easy to disable selected formats, I ask that the TDF
> Steering Committee take the suggestions in this conversation thread
> into consideration. Larry Gusaas has cited some sources (in the thread
> starter) that suggest that Microsoft is again (ab)using their
> near-monopoly market position to subvert openness. While there's no
> need for the TDF to police or punish Microsoft's behavior, there are
> strong reasons for the LibreOffice community to stand for and protect
> the open nature of LibO applications and their file formats. There is
> no reason to support writing/saving as docx/OOXML except to go along
> with Microsoft's anti-open fraud and deception.
>
> Carl Symons
>


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Sean White Sean White
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Larry Gusaas
I have come into this thread a little late but i may just have a slightly
clearer view of things.  In the world of office suites, MS almost has a
monopoly.  They have the power to to make their formats the standard.  IF
LibreOffice pulls .docx support then people WONT congratulate us on the
strength of our morals.  They will instead see an 'office suite' that
doesn't support the formats they have and will go "Well thats USELESS" and
delete it from their system and install an office suite which DOES have
support, which in this case is MSO thus strengthening MS position in the
market.  This is the opposite of what we want to happen with LibreOffice.
 The validity of the standard and the fact that its a proprietary format
aside, if LibreOffice doesn't play ball, the we get shoved of the court.

As a side note, I find it slightly hypocritical that the original poster
advocates going back to OO.o, which is now controlled by Oracle who are in a
bigger campaign of open-source destruction than MS is at the moment, because
we happen to support a format that is used by 80+% of all 'Office Suite'
users.  Its kinda like going to the gStreamer forums and saying "I'm going
to iTunes because you support WMA".

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Larry Gusaas <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> On 2010/12/30 7:09 PM  Carl Symons wrote:
>
>> One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format.
>>
>
> Official OpenOffice.org builds do not support writing to the .docx format.
>
> The Go-OO derivative does write to the .docx format (probably because of
> the agreement between Microsoft and Novell). Go-OO is the version used on
> many Linux distros. There are many reports on OOo forums of problems caused
> by the poorly tested additions included in Go-OO.
>
> LibreOffice is based on Go-OO.
>
>
>
> --
>
> _____________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>     Larry I. Gusaas
>
> *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
> Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese *
>
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]<discuss%[hidden email]>
> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>



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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format


On 2010/12/31 1:02 AM  Sean White wrote:
> IF
> LibreOffice pulls .docx support then people WONT congratulate us on the
> strength of our morals.

Nobody suggest not being able to read .docx files, only that LibO should no be able to write to
that format.

> They will instead see an 'office suite' that
> doesn't support the formats they have and will go "Well thats USELESS" and
> delete it from their system and install an office suite which DOES have
> support,

MS Office still can read and write to .doc format. LibO ability to write to .doc format if
necessary is sufficient for interchange with MS office users

> we happen to support a format that is used by 80+% of all 'Office Suite'
> users.

Older versions of MS office do not use the new formats. Many users of MS Office 2007 and newer
still save in the older formats. Nowhere near 80+% of MS Office users the new file formats.

> Its kinda like going to the gStreamer forums and saying "I'm going
> to iTunes because you support WMA".

Totally irrelevant comment. What is gStreamer? Oh, wait a minute, it is probably a Linuts program.

Larry
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Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese



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Sean White Sean White
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

@Larry Gusaas
During the last 12 months alot of of big businesses have changed over to
Windows 7 and MSO 2007/2010.  As most people dont care about the format they
will just save it as docx.  Most will not even know the difference because
they will buy the software that their business has.  LibreOffice being able
to write to .doc isn't going to be enough when everyone around you is using
the format equivalent of Win7 and you're still using the equivalent of
Win98/2000.

The vibe i got from the original poster and a few subsequent posters was
that of stopping support entirely, both read and write, rather than just
write.

gStreamer is a de-facto media framework.  Some programs you use everyday
probably use it.  If my use of gStreamer was to hard for you then replace it
with FFMpeg.  It achieves the same objective.  And dont just think that
because i know a few computer terms that you don't that I run Linux.  Not
every smart person uses it even though it is a better system than Windows.
 The reason it fails is really the same as why OOo/LO struggle against MSO,
people dont see it as a viable alternative.  In linux's case its because
people think that it HAS to be advanced and that it isn't user friendly.  In
OOo/LO's case people see that it doesn't have the features they need (.docx
support) and, camparative to MSO, looks a-shambles, with a GUI akin to the
MSO 97-2003 era.

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Larry Gusaas <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> On 2010/12/31 1:02 AM  Sean White wrote:
>
>> IF
>> LibreOffice pulls .docx support then people WONT congratulate us on the
>> strength of our morals.
>>
>
> Nobody suggest not being able to read .docx files, only that LibO should no
> be able to write to that format.
>
>
>  They will instead see an 'office suite' that
>> doesn't support the formats they have and will go "Well thats USELESS" and
>> delete it from their system and install an office suite which DOES have
>> support,
>>
>
> MS Office still can read and write to .doc format. LibO ability to write to
> .doc format if necessary is sufficient for interchange with MS office users
>
>
>  we happen to support a format that is used by 80+% of all 'Office Suite'
>> users.
>>
>
> Older versions of MS office do not use the new formats. Many users of MS
> Office 2007 and newer still save in the older formats. Nowhere near 80+% of
> MS Office users the new file formats.
>
>
>  Its kinda like going to the gStreamer forums and saying "I'm going
>> to iTunes because you support WMA".
>>
>
> Totally irrelevant comment. What is gStreamer? Oh, wait a minute, it is
> probably a Linuts program.
>
> Larry
> --
> _________________________________
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
>
>
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Rob Unsworth Rob Unsworth
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Larry Gusaas
On 31/12/10 07:07, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> You have it backward. If LibO writes in OOXML they are doing
> Microsofts bidiing. The world is slowly demanding open document
> formats. By supporting MS proprietary formats LibO is helping to
> perpetuate their hegemony.
>
If LibreOffice were to write in OOXML it would be supporting MS by
giving them another implementation of the current OOXML format. There is
also a distinct possibility that LbreOffice would loose credibility
within the open source community.

Before anyone spends any more time on LibreOffice writing in the OOXML
format I would suggest you read these two articles.

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/04/iso-ooxml-convener-microsofts-format-heading-for-failure.ars

 From Alex Brown, the convener of ISO's OOXML subcommittee
http://www.adjb.net/post/Microsoft-Fails-the-Standards-Test.aspx

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by BRM
FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF
format for opening and saving documents now.

On 12/31/10 1:12 AM, BRM wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----
>
>> From: Barbara Duprey<[hidden email]>
>> <snip>
>>> We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have  pointed out ODF is
>> quickly
>>> becoming the world standard at least at the  government level - which means
>> in a
>>> few years most organizations that  support governments will need to support
>> ODF
>>> too, and a few years after  that organizations that support those
>> organizations,
>>> and so forth. MS  has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time
>> before
>>> OOXML  (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.
>> Unfortunately, MS now  claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing
>> files with the ODF  extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon
>> discover that the MS  implementation is not really compatible with other ODF
>> implementations (most  notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I
>> think the MS plan here is  to say that *they've* got the true standard
>> implementation and everybody else is  wrong. Since that (basically proprietary)
>> version of ODF is now distributed as  part of MS Office, it's just about
>> everywhere, so they have the numbers on their  side. That seems to leave
>> everybody else once again playing "catch-up" with MS,  which can then simply do
>> as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound  gorilla in the room.
>> Interoperability issues will than be charged against the  non-MS implementation,
>> making it "safer" for organizations to stay with MS. Am I  being unduly
>> pessimistic here?
>>
> True, they do have a plug-in available to support ODF, but (last I checked) it
> is not part of the default install - you must install it separately, and it only
> supports Office 2007 and later, while they pushed OOXML support out to Office
> 2003 and possibly earlier versions too.
>
> However, they do not (again at least last I checked) let you save it via the
> normal means, e.g. Save/Save As dialog, and you cannot make it the default.
> They also follow only the 1.0 or may be the 1.1 version that made it through ISO
> refusing to do anything that is not in the ISO version, and then doing it in a
> rather broken manner.
>
> However, they are not the 600-pound gorilla in the ODF market given the dozens
> of implementations that more or less agree on how most things should be done.
>
> For instance, unlike all other implementations (again last I checked) MS wrote
> the value of the cell to the normal location for an ODS spreadsheet while
> writing the formula to a MS Office specific namespace - whereas everyone else
> write the formula to the cell location and not application specific namespaces.
> Effectively making MS Office ODF files non-interoperable with everyone else. I
> think they may also drop all other application specific data too; or may be they
> were kind enough to leave that intact, don't remember on that front. Conversely,
> I think there is likely enough interoperable software out there that it can be
> easily pointed out that MS has the broken implementation in such cases.
>
> Ben
>
>


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Simon Brouwer Simon Brouwer
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Sean White

Sean White schreef:
> Oracle who are in a bigger campaign of open-source destruction than MS
is at the moment,

I know some anti-Oracle sentiment can be expected here, but seriously...

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Gordon Burgess-Parker Gordon Burgess-Parker
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by RGB.ES
On 30/12/10 20:23, RGB ES wrote:
> 2010/12/30 Gordon Burgess-Parker<[hidden email]>:
>> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
>> default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid....
>>
> That means nothing. MSOffice will be able to read the previous formats
> for a while, I think...
>
That's not the point. Many users of MS Office don't know how , or can't
be bothered, to change the default document format from OOXML back to
previous format, especially as Windows 7 (by default) does NOT show the
file extension, so users don't even KNOW they are using OOXML. (I have
personal experience of this from Users I "support"). Therefore the use
of OOXML will spread insidiously as the take up of Office 2010
(particularly) and Windows 7 speeds up. And I'm afraid there is nothing
that can be done to stop this as MS Office almost completely dominates
the Office suite world, particularly in corporate environments.
And if you are sent an OOXML document to edit and return then it's bad
manners not to send it back in the format it was sent to you, just like
it's bad manners to receive a plain text email and reply in HTML....

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Gordon Burgess-Parker Gordon Burgess-Parker
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Carl Symons
On 30/12/10 21:07, Carl Symons wrote:
>
> Any file format would still be accessible to read. If someone sends
> you a docx file, you will be able to open it. You can send a .doc (no
> x; no OOXML) file back to to them; they will be able to read it with
> their MS application.
Two comments on that. OOXML documents could contain more formatting
options than the old style MS Office documents, which would be lost of
you saved it in a prior format, and secondly, if someone sends you a
document in a certain format, then it's arrogant of you to return it in
a DIFFERENT format, however much you dislike the format the sender used.
That's why email clients reply to messages in the same format in which
they were received.

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Gordon Burgess-Parker Gordon Burgess-Parker
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Larry Gusaas
On 30/12/10 20:41, Larry Gusaas wrote:

>
> On 2010/12/30 2:19 PM  Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
>> OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this
>> format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid....
>
> Yes you can do something about it. Don't enable writing in that
> format. Use PDF's for communicating. If a MS user needs to be able to
> modify a document, use .doc format. There is no need to use .docx
> format. MS Office 2008 and 2011 can still read .doc files.
>
>

None of you get the point, do you.
1. It is arrogant to return a document in a format different to that
which was sent to you. (That's why email clients always reply in the
same format in which the original message was received)

2. Changing the format may well lose formatting in the document that is
not supported in the older document type.

3. .doc, .xls and .ppt  are Microsoft proprietary formats anyway - it's
just that they are much easier to analyse...

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Ian Lynch Ian Lynch
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Gordon Burgess-Parker
On 30 December 2010 20:19, Gordon Burgess-Parker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>
>> I will not support or use LibreOffice
>>  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
>> format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
>> do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
>>
>> See the following:
>>
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2493&p=169740#p169507
>> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
>>
>> Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
>> participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
>> LibreOffice.
>>
>>
>>  OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format
> by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid....



And if LibO does not support export to the latest versions of MS Office many
governments and businesses will be less likely to adopt it. Overall that
would be bad for odf. Once odf is in majority use yo can start dictating de
facto standards.


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Sveinn í Felli Sveinn í Felli
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Andy Brown
Þann fös 31.des 2010 01:28, skrifaði Wolf Halton:

> I have to use office2007 at work and I watch hundreds of core users (college
> students) struggle with my formatting requirements for homework assignments.
> Most of these are using the company-supplied computers, with office 2007,
> most of the time.  Word allows reading and writing odf format. It tends to
> mess up fancy document formatting, but the most complicated document
> formatting these users do is adding a page number.
> The IT department set it up, so I don't know if the Plugin took manual
> set-up.
>
> If we could set up docx to save automatically to doc, that might be cool for
> us but don't you think that would just annoy core users of ms office? Most
> core users of any program just want to use it to perform some task. They
> don't care about these format battles.
>
> If we could make a couple of award-winning big-budget movies where format
> license was the pivotal plot device, we might have hope of including the
> core user in the controversy. I am not sure that deliberate exclusion coming
> from the "let's get them before they get us" vibe in this thread is going to
> work how we want.
>
> Once all European governments and half of Aisia go to open formats, maybe we
> just stop accepting ms formats at all.  This is how ms office got their
> crushing grip on general business formatting, isn't it. Before Windows, the
> average university or (US) government core user was using WordPerfect on
> DOS. Over the next 5-10 years we will probably see a sea-change to *nix,
> cloud and open formats, but the focus of LO may have to shift to a SaaS
> delivery model to meet the challenges of that change.  If the documents are
> shared primarily over the network through a browser, it will be very simple
> for those service providers to specify odf if we make the reasons clear
> enough, or if we are the providers of those services.
>
> Wolf Halton
>

Couple of things here:

I've been working on a fairly big Win/MSO --> LTSP-*buntu/OOo conversion
in a 1500+ users school environment. So far it's been without major
hiccups, you only have to repeat and tell each individual that OOo
really CAN open .docx (provided one saves it first from the webmail
client to the home directory or any other writable location) and that
OOo CAN save the resulting file in .doc for further processing at home.
This is primarily a 'computer literacy' problem and maybe setup of mail
clients.
While you're at it one can also mention the ODF-plugin for their copy of
MSO :-)

The main problem has been formulas in MSO-2007. Apparently there are two
ways of entering formulas; one consists of using MSO Equation Editor
which apparently renders/saves aproximately correct MathML. The other
(default) way is direct insertion via MSO Equation, wihch is not even
readable by MSO-2003 (only as a bitmap). If this could be adressed, many
institutions/schools would have better time while changing sides.

Apparently some (rare) equations don't transpose correctly to Calc, and
some exotic .ppt transforms don't translate correctly to Impress. But
first of all are the macros which give problems. Probably there will
never be a perfect automatic way for converting those, I see it rather
as a business opportunity for VBA/macro gurus.

But I think that in a corporate context, a batch program for converting
.doc and .docx to ODF would get some support and would/could ease the
conversion. After all those years, there's a pile of .docs sitting on
most PCs in this world. And having all the files in a same/similar
format is an issue for many I've heard from.

Just thoughts.

Sveinn í Felli

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M. Fioretti M. Fioretti
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Gordon Burgess-Parker
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 10:07:30 AM +0000, Gordon Burgess-Parker
([hidden email]) wrote:

> None of you get the point, do you.
> 1. It is arrogant to return a document in a format different to that
> which was sent to you.

arrogant my foot. If somebody smokes in my face it is not arrogant to
tell him/her to stop. It is my right, period.

For the very same reason, if people send you a document in a
proprietary format you are not arrogant to complain, you would be
wrong to _not_ complain. What is arrogant is sending proprietary
formats when you could avoid it, even after others have explained how
wrong it is.

Then of course, keep tolerating and using a proprietary format may be
still practically _unavoidable_ in many cases, no question about it. I
am in several of those cases myself.

But it would be really wrong to always do this by _default_, without
even trying to inform who is doing it that they ARE OBJECTIVELY WRONG
and that they should stop, because they're creating problems to
themselves and every other user of the files they produce, by using
formats that give cocain-like addiction:

http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=367

> (That's why email clients always reply in the same format in which
> the original message was received)

wrong. Mine (mutt) doesn't for example, and even in Thunderbird this
is an option, not an "always on" uncheangeble behavior. And EVEN if it
were true, it would be a wrong comparison, because with email the
choice is between formats that are both open (plain text or HTML).


Marco F.

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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Gordon Burgess-Parker
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:07, Gordon Burgess-Parker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 1. It is arrogant to return a document in a format different to that which
> was sent to you. (That's why email clients always reply in the same format
> in which the original message was received)

I agree. And users will wonder why they can open a document they
received, make some simple changes, but are asked for different name
when saving the file. They will say "why can't this program simply
save my changes?".

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Ian Lynch Ian Lynch
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

On 31 December 2010 10:37, Kevin André <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:07, Gordon Burgess-Parker <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > 1. It is arrogant to return a document in a format different to that
> which
> > was sent to you. (That's why email clients always reply in the same
> format
> > in which the original message was received)
>
> I agree. And users will wonder why they can open a document they
> received, make some simple changes, but are asked for different name
> when saving the file. They will say "why can't this program simply
> save my changes?".


You can get away with being arrogant when you have 80% of the market.  Most
of the people using a WP have no idea about file formats, they will assume
if it comes in as xxxx it needs to go out as xxxx. (Actually a lot will
never even have used save as..) If there is no facility to do this there is
a reasonable chance they will reject the use of the software out of hand.
This isn't about logic to a sophisticated computer user, it is about the
average user who has no technical knowledge and has picked up a WP by trial
and error. MS by luck or judgement have been very good at exploiting
ignorance. School systems don't teach word processing, they teach MS Word.
It's why we need better education and a certification programme for users
that covers stuff like file formats and the principles of WP not just one
product.

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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by M. Fioretti
On 31/12/10 10:32, M. Fioretti wrote:
>
> wrong. Mine (mutt) doesn't for example,

Then I would plonk you immediately. How do you not see that that is
TOTALLY ARROGANT?
If I send you an email in plain text and you reply in HTML, because YOU
want to, that is complete rudeness and intolerance.

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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

On 31 December 2010 11:35, Gordon Burgess-Parker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 31/12/10 10:32, M. Fioretti wrote:
>
>>
>> wrong. Mine (mutt) doesn't for example,
>>
>
> Then I would plonk you immediately. How do you not see that that is TOTALLY
> ARROGANT?
> If I send you an email in plain text and you reply in HTML, because YOU
> want to, that is complete rudeness and intolerance.


It's more likely just that the replier didn't think it was a big deal ;-)

I don't think that most people that send me .docs are arrogant. Ignorant
perhaps. Personally I don't see why there is such a big hang up about HTML
in e-mails since web based mail is now very common and it is an open
standard.


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Gordon Burgess-Parker Gordon Burgess-Parker
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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF
> format for opening and saving documents now.
>

So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents
has deliberately broken formulae....don't know whether they've "fixed"
this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it...

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Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

In reply to this post by M. Fioretti
Il 31/12/2010 11:32, M. Fioretti ha scritto:

> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 10:07:30 AM +0000, Gordon Burgess-Parker
> ([hidden email]) wrote:
>
>> None of you get the point, do you.
>> 1. It is arrogant to return a document in a format different to that
>> which was sent to you.
>
> arrogant my foot. If somebody smokes in my face it is not arrogant to
> tell him/her to stop. It is my right, period.
>

yes it is your right, but to not be smoked on your face is seen as your
right by others (even if "other" is your boss), but to send a document
in another format (mainly if the receiver is your boss or customer)
isn't seen as your right

> For the very same reason, if people send you a document in a
> proprietary format you are not arrogant to complain, you would be
> wrong to _not_ complain. What is arrogant is sending proprietary
> formats when you could avoid it, even after others have explained how
> wrong it is.
>
> Then of course, keep tolerating and using a proprietary format may be
> still practically _unavoidable_ in many cases, no question about it. I
> am in several of those cases myself.
>
> But it would be really wrong to always do this by _default_, without
> even trying to inform who is doing it that they ARE OBJECTIVELY WRONG
> and that they should stop, because they're creating problems to
> themselves and every other user of the files they produce, by using
> formats that give cocain-like addiction:
>



> http://stop.zona-m.net/?p=367
>
>> (That's why email clients always reply in the same format in which
>> the original message was received)
>
> wrong. Mine (mutt) doesn't for example, and even in Thunderbird this
> is an option, not an "always on" uncheangeble behavior. And EVEN if it
> were true, it would be a wrong comparison, because with email the
> choice is between formats that are both open (plain text or HTML).
>
>
> Marco F.
>


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