[Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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[Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

For those who may not be aware the following statement was made by the
Steering Committee:

"At the moment we work with Silverstripe for our production website
and efforts should be focused on it. We may reconsider this, but all
decisions regarding Drupal will be delayed for at least 6 months. The
discussion about implementing Drupal must not hinder the work on our
current production website."

Although I am personally disappointed by this decision, as I can see
there has been so much collaboration and progress towards a set of
powerful and inclusive community infrastructure tools with the Drupal
sub project, I feel it is important to thank those who have put in so
much effort to date.

It has become clear that the community building direction is not as
extroverted as I once thought, and I am immensely saddened by this, as
I was under the impression that the community would embrace cutting
edge, community building ideas readily.
As I have been putting almost all of my time into the LibreOffice
Drupal development, and the implication of the SC statement that this
amazing work by a great group of people has been in vein, I will be
taking a break from the project for a period to allow myself to
re-focus.

I do not believe that the SC decision is a bad decision, it is simply
very different to the approach I would have taken considering the
number, willingness and ambition of members working on this project.
Can I encourage the people who have been working on the Drupal
development to start looking at Silverstripe as the dictated path
forward and contribute to it as you have been with the Drupal
development.

Again, I thank all of those members who have contributed so much under
the premise of serious review.

The development site will remain online at
www.libreofficeaustralia.com however it is likely that I will make the
site read only until we determine the path forward for this
development.
So... The question is, where to now for the Drupal development?

Michael Wheatland

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

Le 2011-01-14 12:26, Michael Wheatland a écrit :

> For those who may not be aware the following statement was made by the
> Steering Committee:
>
> "At the moment we work with Silverstripe for our production website
> and efforts should be focused on it. We may reconsider this, but all
> decisions regarding Drupal will be delayed for at least 6 months. The
> discussion about implementing Drupal must not hinder the work on our
> current production website."
>
> Although I am personally disappointed by this decision, as I can see
> there has been so much collaboration and progress towards a set of
> powerful and inclusive community infrastructure tools with the Drupal
> sub project, I feel it is important to thank those who have put in so
> much effort to date.
>
> It has become clear that the community building direction is not as
> extroverted as I once thought, and I am immensely saddened by this, as
> I was under the impression that the community would embrace cutting
> edge, community building ideas readily.
> As I have been putting almost all of my time into the LibreOffice
> Drupal development, and the implication of the SC statement that this
> amazing work by a great group of people has been in vein, I will be
> taking a break from the project for a period to allow myself to
> re-focus.
>
> I do not believe that the SC decision is a bad decision, it is simply
> very different to the approach I would have taken considering the
> number, willingness and ambition of members working on this project.
> Can I encourage the people who have been working on the Drupal
> development to start looking at Silverstripe as the dictated path
> forward and contribute to it as you have been with the Drupal
> development.
>
> Again, I thank all of those members who have contributed so much under
> the premise of serious review.
>
> The development site will remain online at
> www.libreofficeaustralia.com however it is likely that I will make the
> site read only until we determine the path forward for this
> development.
> So... The question is, where to now for the Drupal development?
>
> Michael Wheatland
>

Hi Michael

Where did this statement come from?

Marc


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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Minutes_2011-01-13

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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

Le 2011-01-14 12:53, Michael Wheatland a écrit :
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Minutes_2011-01-13
>

Thanks Michael.

I would also like to express my sadness over this decision as many
members of the LibreOffice community had expressed their willingness and
ability to help out with a Drupal LibreOffice site. There is an obvious
well talented and enabled group amongst us who could have had a large
impact cooperating on such a site.

I would personally like to thank Michael who has spent many a great
hours working feverishly on the site and also for his lead on the Drupal
project and hope that he will still be one who is around to help out and
to comment on the projects activities as well as adding his invaluable
advice site building.

Thank you as well for leaving the site up temporarily for us to compare
and to measure.

See you on the threads.

Cheers

Marc


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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Le 14/01/11 18:26, Michael Wheatland a écrit :

FWIW, and I've said this already, but I'll say it again, I really like
the design of the Drupal-based site that you and your team have created.
It is clear, easy to navigate and modern, but then I guess such things
are more a question of subjective taste than objectivity, since I have
no idea how much overhead it takes to keep such a site maintained and
evolving, nor even to populate with content. It certainly seems very
modular.

I would sincerely hope that this would not disappear in the near future,
it would in my humble opinion, be a great shame to lose all that work.


Alex



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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

On 2011-01-15 4:41 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:
> I would sincerely hope that this would not disappear in the near future,
> it would in my humble opinion, be a great shame to lose all that work.

+100

The integration of mail list <> forums <> newsgroups alone is worth
using Drupal, assuming of course that it can indeed be accomplished as
Michael described...

Michael, I'm sure all of your hard work won't be wasted, hang in there...

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Charles

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Charles Marcus
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2011-01-15 4:41 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:
>> I would sincerely hope that this would not disappear in the near future,
>> it would in my humble opinion, be a great shame to lose all that work.
>
> +100
>
> The integration of mail list <> forums <> newsgroups alone is worth
> using Drupal, assuming of course that it can indeed be accomplished as
> Michael described...
>
> Michael, I'm sure all of your hard work won't be wasted, hang in there...

I would love to contribute to a brighter future for this project. I am
however getting the feeling that the establishment of this project is
less of a step forward for community coordination and governance than
I was expecting.

The consultation process with the website mailing list and website
team members when establishing the "Group of four" was non-existent.
In fact I have seen a shout out to the documentation mailing list for
new contributors for the website, while there are already members
poised to help if consultation and coordination occurs, as we have
seen with the Drupal development. I believe that ignoring and
belittling this large contributor base is mis-management of the
website team by the Steering Committee, and that these active members
can be utilised given the right leaders.

I sincerely hope that my impression is incorrect, and will remain
subscribed to the mailing lists and waiting to see the establishment
of the membership committee and some forward thinkers elected to the
Board and Engineering Steering Committee.

I appreciate all of the public and private support that much of the
Drupal team and myself have received, Everyone has done an amazing
job. It is now in the SCs hands to allow the website team to work
collaboratively and constructively in a grass roots 'open' way, rather
than dictating what the website team 'will do' and designating
leaders.

Michael Wheatland

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Narayan Aras Narayan Aras
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RE: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

In reply to this post by Wheatbix

Hi Michael,

> The development site will remain online at
> www.libreofficeaustralia.com however it is likely that I will make the
> site read only until we determine the path forward for this
> development.

> So... The question is, where to now for the Drupal development?

I think the main problem is, our proposals have been only verbose.
At present, the Drupal website does not present a unique advantage over the SilverStrip site.
That's why we should develop the site in its full glory (as discussed with Christoph earlier).

Once people see the merit of what we are talking about, I am sure we will find support.

In any case, you are not relying upon MC's approval or sponsorship, right?
So let us devote our full energy on the Drupal site, integrate all modules and only then resurface.

Let's take up this challenge!

-Narayan
     
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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
Hi Charles, *,

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Charles Marcus
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2011-01-15 4:41 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:
>> I would sincerely hope that this would not disappear in the near future,
>> it would in my humble opinion, be a great shame to lose all that work.
>
> +100
>
> The integration of mail list <> forums <> newsgroups alone is worth
> using Drupal, assuming of course that it can indeed be accomplished as
> Michael described...

And this attitude/point of view towards it surely was one of the
reasons for the SC to be so drastic about its statement.

You must not force people into a single infrastructure. There is no
need to force everything into drupal. I hardly see any benefit of
having mailinglist or forums covered by drupal itself.

The problem is not drupal the technology, but that people were not
listening to each other.

That really is the biggest problem. The impression people got is that
drupal team is only interested in pushing drupal, not in how community
works. You cannot force people to use whatever feature just because it
is available in future when people have been using another solution
for years that just fits their needs.

Sophie (as member of the SC) and others did attempt several times to
point this out, but basically it always continued like that.

LO does not start completely from scratch. It has 10 years of history
it shares with the OpenOffice.org project. During that time, various
ways of collaboration have formed, various tools are used. You cannot
just throw that all away and force it all into drupal.

Also it was stressed many times that we urgently need a website with
content, a css theme, etc. But instead on working on a theme together,
drupal just did their own "in the backyard" - and then that in turn
led to the situation where David and very few others had to do it all
by themselves, under quite a bit of time pressure. And the frustrating
part about it was that while there were many requests for help "please
provide content, please help with the theme" there was no feedback, no
help offers, but instead one had to read "tada - look at our beautiful
drupal theme", or "we got great plans, we envision <whatever>". So in
fact SC's statement comes much too late.

But then again: Drupal is not "dead" at all - it should just be clear
that the primary focus must be the site that is public for the user.

ciao
Christian

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

On 2011-01-18 5:57 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> And this attitude/point of view towards it surely was one of the
> reasons for the SC to be so drastic about its statement.
>
> You must not force people into a single infrastructure. There is no
> need to force everything into drupal. I hardly see any benefit of
> having mailinglist or forums covered by drupal itself.

Seriously? You don't see the benefit of having fully integrated support
backend, such that someone can choose to use the forums, or email lists,
or newsgroups, and everyone sees the same 'content'?

Anyway, maybe Drupal could simply be leveraged as the *support* backend
- that being one of the weakest links in the OOo chain ever since I can
remember.

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Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
On 01/18/2011 11:57 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

> But then again: Drupal is not "dead" at all - it should just be clear
> that the primary focus must be the site that is public for the user.

I have read many threads in the website mailing list, and I must say
that I have found many areas where the discussion has gone in the wrong
direction. For instance, the "23 roles" were assuming that the web site
would become the entry point for the community, which is something that
cannot happen as every individual has the right to choose his preferred
way of interacting with the project (and this has always happened). For
instance, if I had to go through a web site to discover my way into the
community I would have never been a OOo advocate. Assuming that this was
the right development direction has been a mistake.

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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
On 01/19/2011 12:11 AM, Charles Marcus wrote:

> Seriously? You don't see the benefit of having fully integrated support
> backend, such that someone can choose to use the forums, or email lists,
> or newsgroups, and everyone sees the same 'content'?

Yes, seriously.

In Italy, there are mailing lists, newsgroups and forums and each user
is choosing his preferred tool and everything works so well that OOo has
over 20% market share (and growing).

The mailing lists and the forum are the "official" ones, while the
newsgroup is independent (and will never accept to be affiliated with
any project, and I will never ask them to).

The integration is done at moderators level (informally) and works like
a charm.

> Anyway, maybe Drupal could simply be leveraged as the *support* backend
> - that being one of the weakest links in the OOo chain ever since I can
> remember.

The weakest link in the OOo ecosystem is the community, where there is
not a community.

Where there is a community, support is one of the strengths of OOo.

Unfortunately, the English speaking community is one of the weakest and
so is English support.

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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
Le 2011-01-18 17:57, Christian Lohmaier a écrit :

>
> The problem is not drupal the technology, but that people were not
> listening to each other.
>
> That really is the biggest problem. The impression people got is that
> drupal team is only interested in pushing drupal, not in how community
> works. You cannot force people to use whatever feature just because it
> is available in future when people have been using another solution
> for years that just fits their needs.
>
> Sophie (as member of the SC) and others did attempt several times to
> point this out, but basically it always continued like that.

As you say, people were not listening to each other. As a LibO member
who did participate on the Drupal team and helped organise it under the
impression that, clearly, the SC had given us the go ahead with the
possibility of moving on to the Drupal CMS within 6 months. The proposal
put to the membership by the Drupal group was that Drupal would act more
as a hub offering windows to the various LibO communities. Somehow this
also got lost in the disinformation that was being passed around.

>
> LO does not start completely from scratch. It has 10 years of history
> it shares with the OpenOffice.org project. During that time, various
> ways of collaboration have formed, various tools are used. You cannot
> just throw that all away and force it all into drupal.

So, would you be OK with having a Drupal site acting as a hub directing
traffic to the different sites? This is then the question. Would it not
be more impressive to have people think that we are a whole community?
Would it not be more advantageous to find all of the connections in one
spot? Would not this give us all a sense of community?

>
> Also it was stressed many times that we urgently need a website with
> content, a css theme, etc. But instead on working on a theme together,
> drupal just did their own "in the backyard" - and then that in turn
> led to the situation where David and very few others had to do it all
> by themselves, under quite a bit of time pressure. And the frustrating
> part about it was that while there were many requests for help "please
> provide content, please help with the theme" there was no feedback, no
> help offers, but instead one had to read "tada - look at our beautiful
> drupal theme", or "we got great plans, we envision<whatever>". So in
> fact SC's statement comes much too late.
>

Yes, the urgent need for content. Unfortunately, the Silverstripe team
had, at the time, assured the SC that the site would be up and running
in a matter a few weeks. We were led to believe that all of the site
would just be available to all for use in so little time. What was not
said, is that, in fact, the Silverstripe had not prepared any IA or any
sort of planning for the actual web development and that it would be
done on a "first come first serve" meritocratic way. Unfortunately, it
was, and still is, quite difficult to find any members experienced
enough in Silverstripe in any group who wanted to step up and help out.
They just did not exist as Silverstripe is a newcomer to the CMS world
and very few people have experience with it.

However, the Drupal site developers, who had been led to believe from
the SC that we had a 6 month delay to prep a Drupal solution, were busy
organising and raising a Drupal solution in a very organised way.
Contrary to the Silverstripe CMS team, Drupal devs can easily be found
in any of the NL groups or on any mailist. We even had offers of Drupal
website dev. companies offering their help. It was therefore inevitable
that Drupal development would outstrip the Silverstripe (it is still
comparably still quite advanced). It was often said that the Drupal devs
were not interested in learning about a new CMS as they would have no
use for it in their professional work. They were only interested in a
Drupal site. Drupal devs are just more easily found and greater in
number than Silverstripe devs.

As for adding content, well, why was this not planned when the SC was
assured that the site would be ready within a short time frame? So, the
excuse for having no content for the Silverstripe site is that the
Drupal team were being too organised or that they were negligent in
providing content? I would find it strange that for some reason, ALL of
the content contributors were on the Drupal side? Then why was
Silverstripe chosen?

Again, as pointed out earlier, you just have to visit the Silverstripe
and wiki pages to see. Again, these sections speak volumes. You just
cannot blame the Drupal devs for the lack of documentation on the
Silverstripe site. Otherwise, with this kind of rationale, the wrong CMS
solution was picked then as there are simply that many more experienced
Drupal developers who could make the LO site workable. IMHO, with so
many more Drupal experienced website devs, had the Drupal CMS been
chosen, we would have had more membership participation and less
bickering. But OK, Silverstripe was chosen over Drupal as the
competition had drawn to a close.

> But then again: Drupal is not "dead" at all - it should just be clear
> that the primary focus must be the site that is public for the user.
>
> ciao
> Christian
>

Sadly, the constant reminder that the Drupal CMS solution is not dead
and may be considered later is disheartening. This is just saying, that,
if the Silverstripe site doesn't work, well, we will be sorry to
everyone and move to Drupal anyway. Regardless of any outcome, the SC
will just have to come to terms with the fact that, for a large site
such as LbiO with a potential of 100 million users/downloads, most
serious devs would recommend the use of a Drupal CMS solution. You will
constantly have to explain your reasons for picking Silverstripe ... or
maybe just add it to a FAQ.

Cheers

Marc


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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

In reply to this post by italovignoli
Hi Italo:

Le 2011-01-18 18:25, Italo Vignoli a écrit :

> On 01/19/2011 12:11 AM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>
>> Seriously? You don't see the benefit of having fully integrated support
>> backend, such that someone can choose to use the forums, or email lists,
>> or newsgroups, and everyone sees the same 'content'?
>
> Yes, seriously.
>
> In Italy, there are mailing lists, newsgroups and forums and each user
> is choosing his preferred tool and everything works so well that OOo has
> over 20% market share (and growing).
>
> The mailing lists and the forum are the "official" ones, while the
> newsgroup is independent (and will never accept to be affiliated with
> any project, and I will never ask them to).
>
> The integration is done at moderators level (informally) and works like
> a charm.
>
>> Anyway, maybe Drupal could simply be leveraged as the *support* backend
>> - that being one of the weakest links in the OOo chain ever since I can
>> remember.
>
> The weakest link in the OOo ecosystem is the community, where there is
> not a community.
>
> Where there is a community, support is one of the strengths of OOo.
>
> Unfortunately, the English speaking community is one of the weakest and
> so is English support.
>

This kind of reasoning however would seem to promote communities built
on regions rather than one whole community. This would then make for a
good case of having country based communities with their own set of
website tools.

Would it not make more sense to have a central point, LibreOffice.org,
where upon landing you are directed to your region? Is this not what we
are doing already?

Has anyone considered that perhaps this is another step in LibreOffice's
coming of age? Perhaps centralizing the communication tools and working
on a common membership will make it stronger? There is still room for
individuality even when in a large group. Perhaps this is where the
membership will find it's strength.

The preferred tools can still be offered up to the groups from a central
point as well.

Perhaps speaking as on common LibreOffice voice rather than different
LibreOffice groups will give us more strength. Perhaps, rather than
gaining 20% of market share, a common membership approach will give us a
larger share of the market?

Cheers

Marc


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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

On 01/19/2011 05:04 AM, Marc Paré wrote:

> This kind of reasoning however would seem to promote communities built
> on regions rather than one whole community. This would then make for a
> good case of having country based communities with their own set of
> website tools.

Marc, it is not a resoning, it is a fact. It was told several times that
TDF is the natural evolution of the OOo community, which in some
geographies is very strong and organized. In order to grow further the
community we must consider this fact, and choose a path that brings
together the old and the new.

During the last ten years, all kind of mistakes has already been made
and one of these mistakes was to force everyone into a single central
infrastructure (CollabNet). The history shows that the strongest
communities inside the OOo ecosystem are those that have been able to
organize independently. And history is seldom wrong.

Of course, trying to evolve into a more coordinated community makes a
lot of sense, but you do not evolve if you try to make a U turn in
respect to the previous path.

I think that a basic misunderstanding was due to the fact that the
website team was new to the community and has not listened to the past
experience, and the old members of the community have overlooked the
problem (and made wrong assumptions).

> Would it not make more sense to have a central point, LibreOffice.org,
> where upon landing you are directed to your region? Is this not what we
> are doing already?

Sometimes, what makes sense for a group is not what makes sense for
everyone. In Italy, the community is called Associazione PLIO (I am the
President) and is not going to change the name now because there are 6
years of history behind it. We have a web site (based on Drupal) and
other tools which are already in place.

The Italian newsgroup, totally independent, is the best support
resource. They are even producing a 3.000 pages FAQ updated at the end
of every month. They want to stay independent, and I am not even going
to ask them to switch from their infrastructure to a central one under
LibreOffice umbrella.

Maybe, this does not makes sense, but this works like a charm.

> Has anyone considered that perhaps this is another step in LibreOffice's
> coming of age? Perhaps centralizing the communication tools and working
> on a common membership will make it stronger? There is still room for
> individuality even when in a large group. Perhaps this is where the
> membership will find it's strength.

Communities are tricky, and international communities are trickier.

Again, there are ten years of history behind our shoulders. We want to
evolve, not revolve. Evolution is slower, and based on consensus.

> The preferred tools can still be offered up to the groups from a central
> point as well.

The problem is that there are groups that want to stay independent. Look
at ODFAuthors.

> Perhaps speaking as on common LibreOffice voice rather than different
> LibreOffice groups will give us more strength. Perhaps, rather than
> gaining 20% of market share, a common membership approach will give us a
> larger share of the market?

I do not know. Maybe yes, maybe not. The fact is that independence has
been a key factor for the success of the community is some geographies,
and this cannot be ignored. Any departure from this fact should be
carefully evaluated.

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Italo Vignoli
Director - The Document Foundation
Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

Please stand by.
David and myself are organising a regroup of the website team in the
form of a Conference Call.

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi Marc, *,

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 4:39 AM, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Le 2011-01-18 17:57, Christian Lohmaier a écrit :
> [...]
> As you say, people were not listening to each other. As a LibO member who
> did participate on the Drupal team and helped organise it under the
> impression that, clearly, the SC had given us the go ahead with the
> possibility of moving on to the Drupal CMS within 6 months.

Yes, the possibility.

> The proposal put
> to the membership by the Drupal group was that Drupal would act more as a
> hub offering windows to the various LibO communities. Somehow this also got
> lost in the disinformation that was being passed around.

Yes, as the impression is that the drupal group would like to force
everything into the drupal-infrastructure.

>> LO does not start completely from scratch. It has 10 years of history
>> it shares with the OpenOffice.org project. During that time, various
>> ways of collaboration have formed, various tools are used. You cannot
>> just throw that all away and force it all into drupal.
>
> So, would you be OK with having a Drupal site acting as a hub directing
> traffic to the different sites? This is then the question. Would it not be
> more impressive to have people think that we are a whole community?

I do not get the idea why for this to work you need to force
everything into a drupal-driven tool.

> Would it
> not be more advantageous to find all of the connections in one spot? Would
> not this give us all a sense of community?

Finding all in one spot is completely different in telling people.
"Sorry, you won't be using the tools you've been working with anymore,
since drupal got this shiny nice module that surely is superior"
This is the message that was received. Maybe not what was intended,
but this is at least my impression.

> Yes, the urgent need for content. Unfortunately, the Silverstripe team had,
> at the time, assured the SC that the site would be up and running in a
> matter a few weeks.

Again you're twisting facts, just like Michael. So a history lessen of
the situation at the time:

The Drupal-proposal sites were all *NON FUNCTIONAL*, they sucked
regarding the inbuilt editor, they sucked in *BASIC* functionality.
While silverstripe was ready to be used.

At no time I or anyone else had made a claim about creating the
content itself. The statement was always "Allow people to start
working on it".

And yes, I also was disappointed that there have not been people who
were eager waiting to providing the content, there my (and other
people's) impression was wrong.

But don't claim that silverstripe-team promised a complete site!

> We were led to believe that all of the site would just
> be available to all for use in so little time.

For use, yes, and that really was a matter of days to setup the
DNS-entry and silverstripe was up and running (at the
test.libreoffice.org location at the time). From that point on it was
ready to use, working.

> What was not said, is that,
> in fact, the Silverstripe had not prepared any IA or any sort of planning

You are a liar, and that more or less represent the communication
style of the drupal-team as a whole. Those who voice their opinion
twist the facts at their will.

> for the actual web development and that it would be done on a "first come
> first serve" meritocratic way. Unfortunately, it was, and still is, quite
> difficult to find any members experienced enough in Silverstripe

Again complete bullshit. You can count the "problem" reports with
silverstripe people posted to the list with your fingers. You don't
need to have experience with silverstripe to provide content.

There is no need for experienced silverstripe people because there is
no need of fancy features yet.

> As for adding content, well, why was this not planned when the SC was
> assured that the site would be ready within a short time frame? So, the
> excuse for having no content for the Silverstripe site is that the Drupal
> team were being too organised or that they were negligent in providing
> content? I would find it strange that for some reason, ALL of the content
> contributors were on the Drupal side? Then why was Silverstripe chosen?

AGAIN: Silverstripe was *ready to use*. Drupal sites at the time *DID
SUCK*. All there was was "there are modules for drupal, and once you
configure it it won't suck". This did go on for weeks, without anybody
installing those modules, configuring the drupal site (remember, there
were four different drupal demo sites at the time, and *NONE* featured
a working editor.
*NONE* offered an easy way to insert links to another page on the same
site, etc.

Despite all the people knowing drupal, despite all the people dealing
with drupal for their living.

/*THIS*/ is what made the SC made their decision.

People need a tool that /works/, not a system that /works once it is
configured/. And it isn't enough to assure "you can do it, thousands
of sites are running with drupal, drupal is great, bla bla". If you
cannot get the basics to work right within a couple of weeks, you're
out of the question.

Silverstipre's editor and site management was working right out of the box.

And this has nothing to do with the content, which is completely
independent of the underlying CMS. So yes, if drupal team now claims
they have put so much effort into designing a IA and thinking about
content: Why didn't they just implement it on the site that was
available?

> Sadly, the constant reminder that the Drupal CMS solution is not dead and
> may be considered later is disheartening. This is just saying, that, if the
> Silverstripe site doesn't work,

If you got a problem with the functionality of the site, then say so.

WHAT doesn't work (because the site runs silverstripe, not because
just nobody provided some content)?

> well, we will be sorry to everyone and move
> to Drupal anyway. Regardless of any outcome, the SC will just have to come
> to terms with the fact that, for a large site such as LbiO with a potential
> of 100 million users/downloads, most serious devs would recommend the use of
> a Drupal CMS solution. You will constantly have to explain your reasons for
> picking Silverstripe ... or maybe just add it to a FAQ.

Again the same FUD again and again. Yes, Drupal is great, but within
nearly two months (during the CMS requirements phase), all those
knowledgeable people didn't manage to create something usable. That's
why SC did vote to go with Silverstripe, with the possibility to
revisit drupal a couple of months later.
But instead of providing a working site with the basics, Drupal team
started their "we conquer the world" crusade and that lead to the
current statement to get a grip of the priorities that matter.

ciao
Christian

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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

This email is to the Drupal team, who all that is I am not sure.

Guys I have my problems with the SC members and I am leaving because of
it, perhaps not quick enough.

What you guys are talking about now however is just wrong - you need to
stop, no more discussions, just stop and walk away - there is no good
for anyone that can come from this.

Please just let it go.

Sincerely,

Drew


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
Hi Christian:

Le 2011-01-19 10:04, Christian Lohmaier a écrit :

> Hi Marc, *,
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 4:39 AM, Marc Paré<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Le 2011-01-18 17:57, Christian Lohmaier a écrit :
>> [...]
>> As you say, people were not listening to each other. As a LibO member who
>> did participate on the Drupal team and helped organise it under the
>> impression that, clearly, the SC had given us the go ahead with the
>> possibility of moving on to the Drupal CMS within 6 months.
>
> Yes, the possibility.
>
>> The proposal put
>> to the membership by the Drupal group was that Drupal would act more as a
>> hub offering windows to the various LibO communities. Somehow this also got
>> lost in the disinformation that was being passed around.
>
> Yes, as the impression is that the drupal group would like to force
> everything into the drupal-infrastructure.

Well, this was the wrong impression as we often times offered specific
Drupal tools but also affirmed that working closely with all
stakeholders was our main objective.

>
>>> LO does not start completely from scratch. It has 10 years of history
>>> it shares with the OpenOffice.org project. During that time, various
>>> ways of collaboration have formed, various tools are used. You cannot
>>> just throw that all away and force it all into drupal.
>>
>> So, would you be OK with having a Drupal site acting as a hub directing
>> traffic to the different sites? This is then the question. Would it not be
>> more impressive to have people think that we are a whole community?
>
> I do not get the idea why for this to work you need to force
> everything into a drupal-driven tool.

My intent here with my statement was to show that the Drupal site could
have provided itself more as a hub to the outside communities, contrary
to the information that others were saying that, as you say, "the need
to force everything into a Drupal-drivfen tool". The Drupal site would
have been used no more and no less than what Silverstripe is trying to
achieve today, of sending people to their different communities. The
only difference being that users/visitors to the site would have the
distinct impression that of a LibreOffice family.

>
>> Would it
>> not be more advantageous to find all of the connections in one spot? Would
>> not this give us all a sense of community?
>
> Finding all in one spot is completely different in telling people.
> "Sorry, you won't be using the tools you've been working with anymore,
> since drupal got this shiny nice module that surely is superior"
> This is the message that was received. Maybe not what was intended,
> but this is at least my impression.

Remember that we were led to believe that we were told on the website
membership list that the Silverstripe first then migration within 6
months to Drupal. We were letting the membership know of certain
modules. We were being open and transparent and the modules were up for
discussion, with implementation on the Drupal site for testing.

>
>> Yes, the urgent need for content. Unfortunately, the Silverstripe team had,
>> at the time, assured the SC that the site would be up and running in a
>> matter a few weeks.
>
> Again you're twisting facts, just like Michael. So a history lessen of
> the situation at the time:
>
> The Drupal-proposal sites were all *NON FUNCTIONAL*, they sucked
> regarding the inbuilt editor, they sucked in *BASIC* functionality.
> While silverstripe was ready to be used.
>
> At no time I or anyone else had made a claim about creating the
> content itself. The statement was always "Allow people to start
> working on it".
>
> And yes, I also was disappointed that there have not been people who
> were eager waiting to providing the content, there my (and other
> people's) impression was wrong.
>
> But don't claim that silverstripe-team promised a complete site!

Then yes, we did misunderstand the Silverstripe approach. You then
delivered a functional working site.

The Drupal team had plans on involving people with content. I guess we
had a more holistic approach to website building. There were offers from
a couple of Drupal devs with ongoing mentoring/facilitating help for
contributors and the use of the Drupal site modules.

>
>> We were led to believe that all of the site would just
>> be available to all for use in so little time.
>
> For use, yes, and that really was a matter of days to setup the
> DNS-entry and silverstripe was up and running (at the
> test.libreoffice.org location at the time). From that point on it was
> ready to use, working.
>
>> What was not said, is that,
>> in fact, the Silverstripe had not prepared any IA or any sort of planning
>
> You are a liar, and that more or less represent the communication
> style of the drupal-team as a whole. Those who voice their opinion
> twist the facts at their will.

Thanks then, could you point me to the pages that we had asked for on
the website list? There must be a place where we can all see the
Silverstripe plans for us to see. If the website membership had seen
that there were no plans for content then perhaps we could have helped
make provisions for this.

>
>> for the actual web development and that it would be done on a "first come
>> first serve" meritocratic way. Unfortunately, it was, and still is, quite
>> difficult to find any members experienced enough in Silverstripe
>
> Again complete bullshit. You can count the "problem" reports with
> silverstripe people posted to the list with your fingers. You don't
> need to have experience with silverstripe to provide content.
>
> There is no need for experienced silverstripe people because there is
> no need of fancy features yet.

Sorry, I just thought that experienced Silverstripe people would be
lending a hand at helping the content contributors manage and work out
the formatting of their sites. How many Silverstripe people do we have
to help out? Is there anyone on the Silverstripe actively helping NL
content contributors so that their sites look good at first landing?

>
>> As for adding content, well, why was this not planned when the SC was
>> assured that the site would be ready within a short time frame? So, the
>> excuse for having no content for the Silverstripe site is that the Drupal
>> team were being too organised or that they were negligent in providing
>> content? I would find it strange that for some reason, ALL of the content
>> contributors were on the Drupal side? Then why was Silverstripe chosen?
>
> AGAIN: Silverstripe was *ready to use*. Drupal sites at the time *DID
> SUCK*. All there was was "there are modules for drupal, and once you
> configure it it won't suck". This did go on for weeks, without anybody
> installing those modules, configuring the drupal site (remember, there
> were four different drupal demo sites at the time, and *NONE* featured
> a working editor.
> *NONE* offered an easy way to insert links to another page on the same
> site, etc.
>
> Despite all the people knowing drupal, despite all the people dealing
> with drupal for their living.
>
> /*THIS*/ is what made the SC made their decision.
>
> People need a tool that /works/, not a system that /works once it is
> configured/. And it isn't enough to assure "you can do it, thousands
> of sites are running with drupal, drupal is great, bla bla". If you
> cannot get the basics to work right within a couple of weeks, you're
> out of the question.
>
> Silverstipre's editor and site management was working right out of the box.
>
> And this has nothing to do with the content, which is completely
> independent of the underlying CMS. So yes, if drupal team now claims
> they have put so much effort into designing a IA and thinking about
> content: Why didn't they just implement it on the site that was
> available?

We thought that you had included it in your plans. Maybe the words that
you would provide a working website confused us. We assumed, as was
stated before, that this meant along with plans for content. And, yes, I
for one jumped in and completed a whole section of the site only to have
it deleted without consultation. I also believe that another member had
commented that going about it this way, deleting contributor content
without consultation, would perhaps dissuade more contribution.

>
>> Sadly, the constant reminder that the Drupal CMS solution is not dead and
>> may be considered later is disheartening. This is just saying, that, if the
>> Silverstripe site doesn't work,
>
> If you got a problem with the functionality of the site, then say so.
>
> WHAT doesn't work (because the site runs silverstripe, not because
> just nobody provided some content)?

Sorry, you are mis-reading my sentence and completely taking it out of
context.

>
>> well, we will be sorry to everyone and move
>> to Drupal anyway. Regardless of any outcome, the SC will just have to come
>> to terms with the fact that, for a large site such as LbiO with a potential
>> of 100 million users/downloads, most serious devs would recommend the use of
>> a Drupal CMS solution. You will constantly have to explain your reasons for
>> picking Silverstripe ... or maybe just add it to a FAQ.
>
> Again the same FUD again and again. Yes, Drupal is great, but within
> nearly two months (during the CMS requirements phase), all those
> knowledgeable people didn't manage to create something usable. That's
> why SC did vote to go with Silverstripe, with the possibility to
> revisit drupal a couple of months later.
> But instead of providing a working site with the basics, Drupal team
> started their "we conquer the world" crusade and that lead to the
> current statement to get a grip of the priorities that matter.
>

I think if you re-read the start of the CMS search for LibO, you will
find that your answers to anyone making reference with Drupal was met
with a negative tone from you. Feel free to re-read your posts. You had
discounted Drupal right from the start.

It seems to me that most groups would want to look for a CMS that best
fits their needs, consult with their membership (in this case our
website membership) and test-try collaboratively different CMS sites to
see how well they work and fit with the community project. I don't
believe that making it into a confrontational test of "who can make it
work first before a deadline" was the best approach. It disregards all
of the professional advice from the membership who signed on to help
with website building. For which we are still struggling with. This is
not the way to build community, rather, it splits communities.

> ciao
> Christian
>

Cheers

Marc


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities

In reply to this post by drewjensen
Le 2011-01-19 10:28, drew a écrit :

> This email is to the Drupal team, who all that is I am not sure.
>
> Guys I have my problems with the SC members and I am leaving because of
> it, perhaps not quick enough.
>
> What you guys are talking about now however is just wrong - you need to
> stop, no more discussions, just stop and walk away - there is no good
> for anyone that can come from this.
>
> Please just let it go.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Drew
>
>

Thanks for the the advice. It has now stopped.

Cheers

Marc


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