Embedding Goodies in the ODF Package (was RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard ... )

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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Embedding Goodies in the ODF Package (was RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard ... )

Well, sure, you can use an ODF package just like a Zip archive and add parts to it.

The ODF Specification does not prevent that.

However, the META-INF/manifest.xml file should be updated to include the addition.

You can't count on any ODF consumer preserving a file that seems to have no use, even though there are those who think such accretions should be preserved.  People who worry about document security, authenticity, and corporate information leaks tend to disagree and arrange to have their implementations delete material that is not recognized. There are implications for digitally-signed documents, as well.

The problem with this is that now someone has to fish the fonts out of there and install them where they are actually recognized for presenting the document.  If LibreOffice is updated to automate the capture of fonts and their extraction again, aren't we back to the previously-unsolved problem?

At that point, it might be better to do it the other way round.  Put the ODF document in a Zip archive (or tar.gz or whatever) along with the fonts and instructions on what to do with the fonts if one wants a rendition of the ODF document close to what was intended by its author.

Or just separate the fonts into a handy Zip bundle that is available somewhere and perhaps put a little note in the document about what fonts work best along with information on finding and installing the font package.  Observing the necessities of license conditions, of course.

I am sure there are covert arrangements that could be created.  I have nothing to say about that.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Edmonds [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 13:49
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[ ... ]

Hi.
Can the ODF file format not include a container for user-data. May be
specifying how that data should be catalogued but not what that data is.
There is no worry about legalities in regards ODF and placing fonts in
that data. Then LO would be free to place fonts in that "user-data" and
use them as required for faithfull document transferal. Provides a
solution while the debate continues.
steve



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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Embedding Goodies in the ODF Package (was RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard ... )

Hi,

+1 to Dennis' s reply below.

Best,
Charles.

Le Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:15:11 -0700,
"Dennis E. Hamilton" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Well, sure, you can use an ODF package just like a Zip archive and
> add parts to it.
>
> The ODF Specification does not prevent that.
>
> However, the META-INF/manifest.xml file should be updated to include
> the addition.
>
> You can't count on any ODF consumer preserving a file that seems to
> have no use, even though there are those who think such accretions
> should be preserved.  People who worry about document security,
> authenticity, and corporate information leaks tend to disagree and
> arrange to have their implementations delete material that is not
> recognized. There are implications for digitally-signed documents, as
> well.
>
> The problem with this is that now someone has to fish the fonts out
> of there and install them where they are actually recognized for
> presenting the document.  If LibreOffice is updated to automate the
> capture of fonts and their extraction again, aren't we back to the
> previously-unsolved problem?
>
> At that point, it might be better to do it the other way round.  Put
> the ODF document in a Zip archive (or tar.gz or whatever) along with
> the fonts and instructions on what to do with the fonts if one wants
> a rendition of the ODF document close to what was intended by its
> author.
>
> Or just separate the fonts into a handy Zip bundle that is available
> somewhere and perhaps put a little note in the document about what
> fonts work best along with information on finding and installing the
> font package.  Observing the necessities of license conditions, of
> course.
>
> I am sure there are covert arrangements that could be created.  I
> have nothing to say about that.
>
>  - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Edmonds [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 13:49
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard
> Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS
> Standard
>
> [ ... ]
>
> Hi.
> Can the ODF file format not include a container for user-data. May be
> specifying how that data should be catalogued but not what that data
> is. There is no worry about legalities in regards ODF and placing
> fonts in that data. Then LO would be free to place fonts in that
> "user-data" and use them as required for faithfull document
> transferal. Provides a solution while the debate continues.
> steve
>
>
>


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Embedding Goodies in the ODF Package (was RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard ... )

In reply to this post by Dennis E. Hamilton
Hi Dennis

Le 2011-06-26 17:15, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> Well, sure, you can use an ODF package just like a Zip archive and add parts to it.
>
> The ODF Specification does not prevent that.
>
> However, the META-INF/manifest.xml file should be updated to include the addition.
>
> You can't count on any ODF consumer preserving a file that seems to have no use, even though there are those who think such accretions should be preserved.  People who worry about document security, authenticity, and corporate information leaks tend to disagree and arrange to have their implementations delete material that is not recognized. There are implications for digitally-signed documents, as well.
>
> The problem with this is that now someone has to fish the fonts out of there and install them where they are actually recognized for presenting the document.  If LibreOffice is updated to automate the capture of fonts and their extraction again, aren't we back to the previously-unsolved problem?

I don't know. Is this what has happened to the .pdf files? Why could not
ODF use some form of embedded fonts as Adobe Acrobat does now? There
doesn't seem to be a problem with this.

> At that point, it might be better to do it the other way round.  Put the ODF document in a Zip archive (or tar.gz or whatever) along with the fonts and instructions on what to do with the fonts if one wants a rendition of the ODF document close to what was intended by its author.
>
> Or just separate the fonts into a handy Zip bundle that is available somewhere and perhaps put a little note in the document about what fonts work best along with information on finding and installing the font package.  Observing the necessities of license conditions, of course.
>
> I am sure there are covert arrangements that could be created.  I have nothing to say about that.

Doing this at the user level is too complicated. It would have to be
done seamlessly and unseen by the user for them to consider the use of
ODF files worth using.

>   - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Edmonds [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 13:49
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard
>
> [ ... ]
>
> Hi.
> Can the ODF file format not include a container for user-data. May be
> specifying how that data should be catalogued but not what that data is.
> There is no worry about legalities in regards ODF and placing fonts in
> that data. Then LO would be free to place fonts in that "user-data" and
> use them as required for faithfull document transferal. Provides a
> solution while the debate continues.
> steve
>
>
>
Cheers
Marc

--
Marc Paré
http://www.parEntreprise.com


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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: Embedding Goodies in the ODF Package (was RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard ... )


On 27 Jun 2011, at 04:47, Marc Paré wrote:

>> The problem with this is that now someone has to fish the fonts out of there and install them where they are actually recognized for presenting the document.  If LibreOffice is updated to automate the capture of fonts and their extraction again, aren't we back to the previously-unsolved problem?
>
> I don't know. Is this what has happened to the .pdf files? Why could not ODF use some form of embedded fonts as Adobe Acrobat does now? There doesn't seem to be a problem with this.

As I understand it, PDF files don't usually embed the whole font; they just embed the parts needed to make the document in question render correctly in the case where the document is being represented as text (since PDF is actually able to encapsulate many different ways to represent a document). When it's used, the font is included in the rendering computation of the reader program, and is never installed on any target system. Not that it could be since the font will be incomplete anyway.

For ODF, since the format is intended to be editable, the font that was embedded would need to be complete and capable of being installed on any platform where that editing might take place so that any text can be edited. To my eyes that poses substantial problems, such as:
* Installing fonts dynamically on any platform, seamlessly on document-load
* Removing those fonts dynamically, including knowing when to do so
* Managing the licensing for fonts so that ODF does not promote copyright infringement

While it might be possible to devise kludgey solutions, each of those issues is a substantial bear-trap and the first two in particular would favour implementations that have no interest in being platform-independent.

While it would indeed be lovely if a miracle happened, it seems to me entirely reasonable that a truly open, cross-platform standard would choose not to attempt to devise solutions for these challenges.

S.



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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: Embedding Goodies in the ODF Package (was RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard ... )



On 27/06/11 11:06 PM, Simon Phipps wrote:

> On 27 Jun 2011, at 04:47, Marc Paré wrote:
>
>>> The problem with this is that now someone has to fish the fonts out of there and install them where they are actually recognized for presenting the document.  If LibreOffice is updated to automate the capture of fonts and their extraction again, aren't we back to the previously-unsolved problem?
>> I don't know. Is this what has happened to the .pdf files? Why could not ODF use some form of embedded fonts as Adobe Acrobat does now? There doesn't seem to be a problem with this.
> As I understand it, PDF files don't usually embed the whole font; they just embed the parts needed to make the document in question render correctly in the case where the document is being represented as text (since PDF is actually able to encapsulate many different ways to represent a document). When it's used, the font is included in the rendering computation of the reader program, and is never installed on any target system. Not that it could be since the font will be incomplete anyway.
>
> For ODF, since the format is intended to be editable, the font that was embedded would need to be complete and capable of being installed on any platform where that editing might take place so that any text can be edited. To my eyes that poses substantial problems, such as:
> 1. * Installing fonts dynamically on any platform, seamlessly on document-load
> 2. * Removing those fonts dynamically, including knowing when to do so
> 3. * Managing the licensing for fonts so that ODF does not promote copyright infringement
>
> While it might be possible to devise kludgey solutions, each of those issues is a substantial bear-trap and the first two in particular would favour implementations that have no interest in being platform-independent.
>
> While it would indeed be lovely if a miracle happened, it seems to me entirely reasonable that a truly open, cross-platform standard would choose not to attempt to devise solutions for these challenges.
>
> S.
>
OO had the option to install fonts only for the use of OO, not system
wide use. This was done through spadmin I think. I wonder how that was
implemented.
Are 1 and 2 not effectively "add font to OO only on open, reload
document" and "remove font from OO only" on document close (if no other
open document requires those fonts.)
steve

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aqualung aqualung
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Re: Embedding Goodies in the ODF Package (was RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard ... )

In reply to this post by Dennis E. Hamilton
Thank you to Messrs. Hamilton and Phipps for their exposition of the challenges of embedding fonts in ODF files, haven't seen it explained that clearly before.
Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: Embedding Goodies in the ODF Package (was RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard ... )

In reply to this post by steveedmonds

On 27 Jun 2011, at 18:13, Steve Edmonds wrote:
>> OO had the option to install fonts only for the use of OO, not system wide use. This was done through spadmin I think. I wonder how that was implemented.

Not embedded fonts, though. Having once in my life tried to work out how to send formatted text between systems (for a distributed clipboard), I can assure you that it's easy to describe in high-level terms and extremely troubling to actually implement :-)

S.



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