Experimental new LibreOffice UI

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Keith Curtis Keith Curtis
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Experimental new LibreOffice UI

Hi all;

I've written a proposal for a new experimental UI for LibreOffice Writer:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:KeithCu

In a few weeks Matúš Kukan will have an empty Python prototype ready
to be filled in.

After that, it becomes a question of what it should look like. The
bitmap I included on the wiki page was just some pretty example I dug
up on the web, but I could imagine others, including perhaps one that
is on the top rather than the side. Anything you guys can draw could
be mostly implemented in a few months (assuming one person full-time)
in Python. No one is signed up to hack on that yet, Matúš is just
making an empty toolbar, but it needs a bitmap first anyway.

It would be nice to get a more official "next-gen" UI Writer design.
Do you guys have one?

Kind regards,

-Keith

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Samuel Mehrbrodt-2 Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

Hi Keith,

good to see some movement on the UI.
There's already a funding campaign for a new UI in LibreOffice:
http://www.freedomsponsors.org/core/issue/175/new-libreoffice-ui

Concerning the choice of the toolkit: PyGTK is dead, you should use
PyGObject which also supports GTK 3: https://live.gnome.org/PyGObject

ATB,
Samuel

Am 06.04.2013 01:30, schrieb Keith Curtis:

> Hi all;
>
> I've written a proposal for a new experimental UI for LibreOffice Writer:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:KeithCu
>
> In a few weeks Matúš Kukan will have an empty Python prototype ready
> to be filled in.
>
> After that, it becomes a question of what it should look like. The
> bitmap I included on the wiki page was just some pretty example I dug
> up on the web, but I could imagine others, including perhaps one that
> is on the top rather than the side. Anything you guys can draw could
> be mostly implemented in a few months (assuming one person full-time)
> in Python. No one is signed up to hack on that yet, Matúš is just
> making an empty toolbar, but it needs a bitmap first anyway.
>
> It would be nice to get a more official "next-gen" UI Writer design.
> Do you guys have one?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> -Keith
>


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Wolfgang Keller Wolfgang Keller
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Keith Curtis
> I've written a proposal for a new experimental UI for LibreOffice
> Writer: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:KeithCu

*sigh*

Anyone can see at the very first glance that the one who "designed"
that doesn't have the slightest clue of even the most basic rules of
ergonomics.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

P.S.: Little challenge: Which *very* elementary rule of ergonomics is
violated by this "design"?

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Keith Curtis Keith Curtis
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
Hi;

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Samuel Mehrbrodt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Keith,
>
> good to see some movement on the UI.
> There's already a funding campaign for a new UI in LibreOffice:
> http://www.freedomsponsors.org/core/issue/175/new-libreoffice-ui

That is great to see as it can fund the work to fill in the empty prototype.

However, I think it would be better if the design team would create an
official bitmap. For example, should it be a sidebar, or should it be
on top? Things like this can be changed later, but the better the
starting point, the less work and the more likely it will be a
success.

>
> Concerning the choice of the toolkit: PyGTK is dead, you should use
> PyGObject which also supports GTK 3: https://live.gnome.org/PyGObject

Thanks for the info about PyGObject. I'll add that to the wiki page.
However, I wonder how well it works on Mac and Windows compared to
WxPython.

-Keith

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Keith Curtis Keith Curtis
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Wolfgang Keller
On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Wolfgang Keller <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I've written a proposal for a new experimental UI for LibreOffice
>> Writer: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:KeithCu
>
> *sigh*
>
> Anyone can see at the very first glance that the one who "designed"
> that doesn't have the slightest clue of even the most basic rules of
> ergonomics.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Wolfgang
>
> P.S.: Little challenge: Which *very* elementary rule of ergonomics is
> violated by this "design"?
>

The reason why I sent an email to this alias is to ask for a better
bitmap. I didn't make the picture, I just added the red boxes, red
text and arrows. I'd be happy to add them to any other design. My
proposal is bitmap-independent.

-Keith

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Samuel Mehrbrodt-2 Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Keith Curtis
Am 07.04.2013 20:09, schrieb Keith Curtis:
> Thanks for the info about PyGObject. I'll add that to the wiki page.
> However, I wonder how well it works on Mac and Windows compared to
> WxPython.
For Windows there are binaries compiled regularly here:
http://code.google.com/p/osspack32/downloads/list
Though I didn't test them.

For Mac I don’t know. You might ask on IRC.

Are you planning to use Gtk/WxWidgets only for the prototype or is that
something that could replace the current Interface at some point?

     Samuel

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Stefan Knorr Stefan Knorr
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Wolfgang Keller
Hi Wolfgang,

On Sun, 2013-04-07 at 20:07 +0200, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> *sigh*

*sigh* Please find an appropriate tone and be upfront about improvement
suggestions instead of trying to make all others look dumb.

Astron.


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Keith Curtis Keith Curtis
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Samuel Mehrbrodt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 07.04.2013 20:09, schrieb Keith Curtis:
>
>> Thanks for the info about PyGObject. I'll add that to the wiki page.
>> However, I wonder how well it works on Mac and Windows compared to
>> WxPython.
>
> For Windows there are binaries compiled regularly here:
> http://code.google.com/p/osspack32/downloads/list
> Though I didn't test them.
>
> For Mac I don’t know. You might ask on IRC.
>
> Are you planning to use Gtk/WxWidgets only for the prototype or is that
> something that could replace the current Interface at some point?
>

This is just planned to be a prototype, but it is nice to have
something that runs on the major platforms LibreOffice supports. It
allows to make sure it looks good everywhere and makes it easier for
more people to hack on it. I suppose something that runs on Linux and
Windows is probably good enough. I only use Linux so I don't really
care ;-)

Furthermore, maybe WxWidgets might make sense to one day (slowly)
LibreOffice's internal toolkit. VCL is very rich, but in an ideal
world, LibreOffice wouldn't have its own cross-platform widget
library. Obviously that is a lot of work, and might not even make
sense, but it is better to not write a bunch of code that limits
future options. In addition, sometimes prototypes end up living longer
than people expect. Of course, code can be ported between toolkits as
well so no decision is really irreversible.

I think it will be left to people like Michael Meeks. I'll just
document it and trust in people more knowledgeable to make the right
decision.

The big question for here is: what is the best design as a starting
point? If no one has any better bitmaps, it seems likely it will start
based on Paulo Jose's work, but he isn't a part of the LibreOffice
design team. The good news is that any constructive feedback from
Wolfgang and others can be more quickly adopted in Python. Ultimately,
however, there will need to be plenty of designer input, so the
sooner, the better.

Regards,

-Keith

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Stefan Knorr Stefan Knorr
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

Hi Keith,

> Furthermore, maybe WxWidgets might make sense to one day (slowly)
> LibreOffice's internal toolkit. VCL is very rich, but in an ideal

So first of all, VCL is sadly not too rich – everywhere you see anything
more fancy than a button, tab or tick box it is some sort of custom
widget. Also, it lacks some things that continue to grow in importance
as we move towards generally smoother computing experiences – an
animation framework and better platform integration for instance.

Next: I guess the long-term plan is to move LibreOffice to(wards) GTK+,
I don't really know for sure though. But the adoption of Glade files for
our UI seems to be an indicator. (Of course, I am sure it's possible to
write a parser for the Glade format that works with WxWidgets, as it was
possible to write a parser for VCL.)
Anyway, maybe Samuel is indeed right about PyGobject being the better
idea..?

(From my end-user-only experience, GTK+ seems to be the better-
developed, more mainstream toolkit, too. But I may be using the wrong
applications.)


> The big question for here is: what is the best design as a starting
> point? If no one has any better bitmaps, it seems likely it will start
> based on Paulo Jose's work, but he isn't a part of the LibreOffice
> design team.

So, Paulo José used to be part of the design team but he hasn't been
here in the past two years. Thus, you would be very lucky to get him to
provide any feedback at all – you can always try though.
Also note that what Paulo has provided is basically a _single_ mockup of
a single component, so I somewhat doubt that it is straightforward to
implement.

At the same time, I think there is not much support for his mockup ideas
– our [1] current line of thinking is that our current toolbars are not
all bad, just unwieldy, often uncontextual and not really ready for
touch input [2].

So, one item that I'd personally love to see tried with toolbars is
displaying floating, highly-contextual toolbars that only appear when an
element is selected, Gnome-Notes style [3].
  * Can we fit everything necessary in such a bubble?
  * Can we get it to the point where it is enjoyable instead of
    annoying?
Obviously, you'll hear different opinions on whether this is useful or
not... but if I could wish for something...

Astron.


[1] Just to make it clear, this "our" is not necessarily meant to
    represent everyone on this list. We haven't really tried finding a
    consensus, because working on toolbars used to be mostly a time-
    waster project, I guess.

[2] cf.
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Gsoc/Ideas#Improve_toolbars_in_LibreOffice
    Note though, the description is very generic at the moment.

[3]
https://raw.github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/notes/notes-single.png


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Keith Curtis Keith Curtis
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

Hi Astron;

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Stefan Knorr <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Keith,
>
>> Furthermore, maybe WxWidgets might make sense to one day (slowly)
>> LibreOffice's internal toolkit. VCL is very rich, but in an ideal
>
> So first of all, VCL is sadly not too rich – everywhere you see anything
> more fancy than a button, tab or tick box it is some sort of custom
> widget. Also, it lacks some things that continue to grow in importance
> as we move towards generally smoother computing experiences – an
> animation framework and better platform integration for instance.
>
> Next: I guess the long-term plan is to move LibreOffice to(wards) GTK+,
> I don't really know for sure though. But the adoption of Glade files for
> our UI seems to be an indicator. (Of course, I am sure it's possible to
> write a parser for the Glade format that works with WxWidgets, as it was
> possible to write a parser for VCL.)
> Anyway, maybe Samuel is indeed right about PyGobject being the better
> idea..?

The use of Glade is not necessarily significant as it is just a design
time IDE / format.

>
> (From my end-user-only experience, GTK+ seems to be the better-
> developed, more mainstream toolkit, too. But I may be using the wrong
> applications.)

I think the question is how well GTK+ works on Windows / Mac. Also,
Ohloh shows Gnome losing developers: https://www.ohloh.net/p/gnome so
there are risks to depending too much on them ;-)

>
>
>> The big question for here is: what is the best design as a starting
>> point? If no one has any better bitmaps, it seems likely it will start
>> based on Paulo Jose's work, but he isn't a part of the LibreOffice
>> design team.
>
> So, Paulo José used to be part of the design team but he hasn't been
> here in the past two years. Thus, you would be very lucky to get him to
> provide any feedback at all – you can always try though.

A hacker could start with his work if there is no better
There needs to be cooperation on this between the hackers and the designers.

> Also note that what Paulo has provided is basically a _single_ mockup of
> a single component, so I somewhat doubt that it is straightforward to
> implement.

I think starting with Writer is a good way to go. Once people "like"
the UI, then it can be extended to the other apps.

>[1] Just to make it clear, this "our" is not necessarily meant to
>    represent everyone on this list. We haven't really tried finding a
>    consensus, because working on toolbars used to be mostly a time-
>    waster project, I guess.

I think another part of the issue is there is a consensus in
LibreOffice that radical UIs are very difficult, which is true in C++
/ VCL. So there isn't much interest in working on something which will
"never" get implemented. However in Python, much faster prototyping is
possible, and input can be quickly put to use.

Regards,

-Keith

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Stefan Knorr Stefan Knorr
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

Hi Keith,

On Wed, 2013-04-10 at 13:06 -0700, Keith Curtis wrote:
> > Also note that what Paulo has provided is basically a _single_ mockup of
> > a single component, so I somewhat doubt that it is straightforward to
> > implement.
>
> I think starting with Writer is a good way to go. Once people "like"
> the UI, then it can be extended to the other apps.

This is not about whether Writer is a good place to start. This is about
the fact that Paulo made a single mockup. He has more than likely
forgotten many things and he has not even had the chance to visualise so
many other things. Also keep in mind that this is not a very functional
mockup, just a visually appealing one, so WYS is not WYG. (The template
manager is a good example for this too, I think [1].)

Astron.


PS: If you're interested, we hold a chat in #libreoffice-design on
Freenode every Saturday, 1600 UTC.


[1] You can look at mockups for it here:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
(The (slightly beta) implementation of it is in LibreOffice 4.0)


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Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Keith Curtis
Hi Keith,

Le 06/04/2013 01:30, Keith Curtis a écrit :
> Hi all;
>
> I've written a proposal for a new experimental UI for LibreOffice Writer:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:KeithCu

That proposal is light years away from being a UX design proposal. Really.

Just compare it with :
- http://design.canonical.com/2013/04/core-utility-apps-process-update/
-
http://design.canonical.com/2013/03/app-patterns-applied-weather-key-journeys/
-
http://design.canonical.com/2013/03/app-patterns-applied-clock-key-journeys/

Have you seen all details for just a simple use case ?
(and read all entries about Ubuntu touch from that blog)

and some references by one of the most important designer :
- http://www.nngroup.com/articles/top-10-application-design-mistakes/
- http://www.nngroup.com/articles/iterative-design/
- http://www.nngroup.com/articles/paper-prototyping/
- http://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-101-introduction-to-usability/
- http://www.nngroup.com/articles/why-you-only-need-to-test-with-5-users/
- http://www.nngroup.com/articles/the-myth-of-the-genius-designer/
- http://www.nngroup.com/reports/paper-prototyping-training-video/
-
http://www.nngroup.com/articles/first-rule-of-usability-dont-listen-to-users/
- http://www.nngroup.com/articles/thinking-aloud-the-1-usability-tool/




>
> In a few weeks Matúš Kukan will have an empty Python prototype ready
> to be filled in.

Please realize that the developer must have infinitely more informations
before starting any line of code.

>
> After that, it becomes a question of what it should look like. The
> bitmap I included on the wiki page was just some pretty example I dug
> up on the web, but I could imagine others, including perhaps one that
> is on the top rather than the side. Anything you guys can draw could
> be mostly implemented in a few months (assuming one person full-time)
> in Python. No one is signed up to hack on that yet, Matúš is just
> making an empty toolbar, but it needs a bitmap first anyway.

You use term "look like", "bitmap", "draw" just as if you were a graphic
designer.
But UX design is NOT drawing or painting, it's about sketching, creating
mockups and prototypes.

I suggest you to use a real sketching tool : pencil 2.X
http://pencil.evolus.vn/

And then :
- define some use cases
- for each use case, create sketches with pencil that describe your
proposal ; sketches must be as precise as possible
- take time and then enhance, simplify... iterate over your proposal
- when you have something stable, publish and ask feed-back
- you'll need to iterate again and again before having a rela proposal


>
> It would be nice to get a more official "next-gen" UI Writer design.

+1
but a complete UI for all modules of LO will require *a lot* of time and
work !

> Do you guys have one?

I don't think so.
The TDF should define a kind of goals/objectives/roadmap upon which we
can build something.

Michel


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Keith Curtis Keith Curtis
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Stefan Knorr
Hi Astron;

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Stefan Knorr <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Keith,
>
> On Wed, 2013-04-10 at 13:06 -0700, Keith Curtis wrote:
>> > Also note that what Paulo has provided is basically a _single_ mockup of
>> > a single component, so I somewhat doubt that it is straightforward to
>> > implement.
>>
>> I think starting with Writer is a good way to go. Once people "like"
>> the UI, then it can be extended to the other apps.
>
> This is not about whether Writer is a good place to start. This is about
> the fact that Paulo made a single mockup. He has more than likely
> forgotten many things and he has not even had the chance to visualise so
> many other things. Also keep in mind that this is not a very functional
> mockup, just a visually appealing one, so WYS is not WYG. (The template
> manager is a good example for this too, I think [1].)

I agree his bitmap isn't the most useful starting point for hacking a
radical UI: a bitmap is not a specification, there are unanswered
questions about it, it doesn't appear to have input from other people,
etc. I'm here to see if there is a better bitmap, or a better
anything.

The amount of work to implement has little to do with the completeness
of the specification. Just about anything you draw can be mostly built
in a few months full-time. The benefit is that if there is a more
thought-out starting point, then the coding will evolve to the happy
endpoint faster. That template manager spec has a lot more
information. Even something like that would be better.

-Keith

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Rodolfo R Gomes Rodolfo R Gomes
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

What I liked from that sketch is the "toolpanels" instead of toolbars.
Something like what we have on Impress, at right side.
What about the toolbars can be docked at a side, and we use a handler
to "strecht" it in order to it become a panel?

Regards,
Rodolfo

2013/4/10 Keith Curtis <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Astron;
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Stefan Knorr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Keith,
>>
>> On Wed, 2013-04-10 at 13:06 -0700, Keith Curtis wrote:
>>> > Also note that what Paulo has provided is basically a _single_ mockup of
>>> > a single component, so I somewhat doubt that it is straightforward to
>>> > implement.
>>>
>>> I think starting with Writer is a good way to go. Once people "like"
>>> the UI, then it can be extended to the other apps.
>>
>> This is not about whether Writer is a good place to start. This is about
>> the fact that Paulo made a single mockup. He has more than likely
>> forgotten many things and he has not even had the chance to visualise so
>> many other things. Also keep in mind that this is not a very functional
>> mockup, just a visually appealing one, so WYS is not WYG. (The template
>> manager is a good example for this too, I think [1].)
>
> I agree his bitmap isn't the most useful starting point for hacking a
> radical UI: a bitmap is not a specification, there are unanswered
> questions about it, it doesn't appear to have input from other people,
> etc. I'm here to see if there is a better bitmap, or a better
> anything.
>
> The amount of work to implement has little to do with the completeness
> of the specification. Just about anything you draw can be mostly built
> in a few months full-time. The benefit is that if there is a more
> thought-out starting point, then the coding will evolve to the happy
> endpoint faster. That template manager spec has a lot more
> information. Even something like that would be better.
>
> -Keith
>
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Keith Curtis Keith Curtis
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Michel RENON
Hi;

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Michel Renon <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Keith,
>
> Le 06/04/2013 01:30, Keith Curtis a écrit :
>
>> Hi all;
>>
>> I've written a proposal for a new experimental UI for LibreOffice Writer:
>> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:KeithCu
>
>
> That proposal is light years away from being a UX design proposal. Really.

The purpose of that proposal is something different.

>
>>
>> In a few weeks Matúš Kukan will have an empty Python prototype ready
>> to be filled in.
>
>
> Please realize that the developer must have infinitely more informations
> before starting any line of code.

That is incorrect. It will just be left up to people filling in the
toolbar to make more guesses about how it should work. It will also
take longer, more mistakes will be made, etc.

>
>
>>
>> After that, it becomes a question of what it should look like. The
>> bitmap I included on the wiki page was just some pretty example I dug
>> up on the web, but I could imagine others, including perhaps one that
>> is on the top rather than the side. Anything you guys can draw could
>> be mostly implemented in a few months (assuming one person full-time)
>> in Python. No one is signed up to hack on that yet, Matúš is just
>> making an empty toolbar, but it needs a bitmap first anyway.
>
>
> You use term "look like", "bitmap", "draw" just as if you were a graphic
> designer.
> But UX design is NOT drawing or painting, it's about sketching, creating
> mockups and prototypes.
>
> I suggest you to use a real sketching tool : pencil 2.X
> http://pencil.evolus.vn/
>
> And then :
> - define some use cases
> - for each use case, create sketches with pencil that describe your proposal
> ; sketches must be as precise as possible
> - take time and then enhance, simplify... iterate over your proposal
> - when you have something stable, publish and ask feed-back
> - you'll need to iterate again and again before having a rela proposal
>

I am not a UX person. I emailed this alias because I want to know if
you have something already, or if there are people who want to work on
it, and to point out that anything you make could be implemented in a
few months, and to point out that in a few weeks, an empty prototype
will be ready.

-Keith

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Stefan Knorr Stefan Knorr
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

Sorry, that last mail was not meant to be sent. I am not sure why my mail
program did that.
Astron.

On 11 April 2013 08:58, Stefan Knorr <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Keith,
>
> On Wed, 2013-04-10 at 22:01 -0700, Keith Curtis wrote:
>> I am not a UX person. I emailed this alias because I want to know if
>> you have something already, or if there are people who want to work on
>> it, and to point out that anything you make could be implemented in a
>> few months, and to point out that in a few weeks, an empty prototype
>> will be ready.
>
> The problem is, we don't and we certainly won't in a few weeks, either.
> I assume you're paying for this in some way, but you don't seem to want
> to take a stake with the design at all.
> I think you may be wasting money.
>
> Astron.

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Keith Curtis Keith Curtis
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 2:01 AM, Stefan Knorr <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, that last mail was not meant to be sent. I am not sure why my mail
> program did that.
> Astron.

Hi Astron;

No problem, I'm happy to respond / clarify anyway.

>>
>> On Wed, 2013-04-10 at 22:01 -0700, Keith Curtis wrote:
>>> I am not a UX person. I emailed this alias because I want to know if
>>> you have something already, or if there are people who want to work on
>>> it, and to point out that anything you make could be implemented in a
>>> few months, and to point out that in a few weeks, an empty prototype
>>> will be ready.
>>
>> The problem is, we don't and we certainly won't in a few weeks, either.
>> I assume you're paying for this in some way, but you don't seem to want
>> to take a stake with the design at all.
>> I think you may be wasting money.
>>
>> Astron.

I am sponsoring Matus to build an empty prototype. I haven't spent the
money yet, but I don't think I'm going to be wasting it. A totally
blank Python toolbar / sidebar could eventually be filled in and
useful.

What will be somewhat of a waste is this:
http://www.freedomsponsors.org/core/issue/175/new-libreoffice-ui.
Someone could build that using Matus's work, but without a better
design starting point, some of their time will be wasted.

Regards,

-Keith

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Wolfgang Keller Wolfgang Keller
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Stefan Knorr
> So, one item that I'd personally love to see tried with toolbars is
> displaying floating, highly-contextual toolbars that only appear when
> an element is selected, Gnome-Notes style [3].

Context menus must be vertical, of course.

And if the application menus would be integrated into the context
menu, this would spare that poor mousecursor a lot of mileage.

I once used an extension on MacOS "classic" that did exactly this and
it made this GUI by far the most efficient that I've ever used.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI

In reply to this post by Keith Curtis
FYI

Meanwhile at the Apache development site...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2347109/AOO4_rev_1468069.png

(screenshot by me, under Win XP SP3, using Industrial theme and after un-selecting the usual top toolbars, which duplicate most of the buttons showing on the new left panel)
steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI


On 2013-04-17 04:08, Pedro wrote:

> FYI
>
> Meanwhile at the Apache development site...
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2347109/AOO4_rev_1468069.png
>
> (screenshot by me, under Win XP SP3, using Industrial theme and after
> un-selecting the usual top toolbars, which duplicate most of the buttons
> showing on the new left panel)
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Experimental-new-LibreOffice-UI-tp4048178p4050356.html
> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
I assume the panel can be docked left or right. We were just discussing
at work yesterday how the MS ribbon wastes so much space and it should
be down the side.
Steve

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