Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

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CougarB CougarB
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Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

When I was a full-time journalist in the 1980s, I became very successful using a dedicated outliner called PCOutline. When all the major Word Processers came along--MS Word, Word Perfect, etc, the lack of outliner functionality kept me with my archaic outliner until MS Word beat the functionality of PCOutline.

I used outlining as my main method of work when a full-time technical writer in the 90s (e.g., Fujitsu Software in San Jose). While working for a java house, I was so influenced by the negative developer reactions to MS, that I've been wishing to move to OpenOffice or LibraOffice ever since they came along. But you don't have the functionality that I need, and furthermore, the discussions of outlining on this forum seem to miss the whole point, from my point of view.

I'm a very motivated wannabe LibraOffice user who currently can't make the switch, because although I'm retired and writing fiction, the power of an outliner for writing in all genres is something I can't live without.

So my reasons are complex--sorry about that--but tl:dr will not allow you to understand them. Please take the time. I really want to quit Microsoft Office forever and ever and ever. Thanx.

The first functionality I need might seem mickey mouse, but it's the foundation for everything else. This is that in Word's outliner view, there's a button in front of every paragraph that I can drag and drop up and down. It's like cut and paste, but a lot faster. Combined with other features, it's extremely  powerful.

The second functionality I need is to be able to collapse things. In an article of 25 paragraphs, I can hide every line except the first line of the paragraph, thus allowing me to see the entire article of 25 paragraphs on the screen at the same time. This allows me to completely rearrange the entire article by drop and drag.

For editing a single sentence or paragraph, I insert a return between sentences, phrases, and even words, drop and drag these elements into a new order, and delete the returns. Voila! A much better constructed paragraph or sentence in a snap.

The third functionality is to collapse things within headers. For instance, if I've interviewed a dozen people for an article or if I've brainstormed 5 pages of random ideas for a blog or a chapter in a novel, I create headers for different topics and then drag and drop paragraphs, quotes, ideas, etc into the headers or buckets I've created. When one header becomes too full and fills too much of the screen, I collapse it, so that it hides all the paragraphs already there, which cleans up the screen. When I'm done with this step, I have half a dozen headers, under which are many different ideas, all of which are completely hidden.

So I drag and drop my half a dozen headers into the correct order. Then I open the first main header and create a bunch of subheaders. Once this is done, I reorganize all of the points in this first section into subsections or sub-buckets, collapsing them all as needed until everything is organized into a number of different subheaders. At this point, I can rearrange all of these subheaders into the best order that they belong in. I can even drag a subheader into a different main heading if I choose, where it will remain as a separate section.

I can repeat this process as many levels as I wish. This feature in MS Word is fractal to nine levels. From a chaotic mixture of confusion emerges order, insight, and wisdom--in one single step.

As a technical writer, I used to sit in a brainstorming meetings, write down every developer idea as fast as I could (including those I didn't understand at all), type it all sequentially, and then very quickly organize all of the ideas into a coherent whole. The developers thought I actually knew how to program. (Mwah-hah-hah!)

I could never have done that with LibreOffice as it's now configured or OpenOffice, either. Without my Word outliner, I would have been a shitty technical writer, and I would never have been able to write the developer guides I wrote.

As a creative writer today, I currently have a dozen projects that are percolating, as well as one major project that I'm focusing on. I just brainstorm for anything that comes up, drag the ideas into the proper buckets, and I never lose anything of value. (Yes, the word "never" is absolutely accurate.)

It's like having a Super Power that's available to everyone, but no one knows how to get it. Currently, this Super Power is only available in MS Word. Please make it possible for me to migrate to LibreOffice without losing my Super Powers. And please make these Super Powers available to the world. Doing so could cause the entire planet to evolve into better writers. You can help eliminate crappy writing!

Until you do this, LibreOffice is like Kryptonite to me. I can't come near it, even though I truly want to.

I beg of you: Please help poor little Cougar quit his addiction to Micro$oft! (Yeah, I know. Outliners do not eliminate the scourge of mixed metaphors.)

For those of you who made it this far, thanx for listening.
Cougar
Eric Beversluis Eric Beversluis
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

I've been using opml editor (on Windows, unfortunately) which seems to
do all these things. Once stuff is in place it can be copied and pasted
into a LO document, I believe. I've even been able to do a bit in Text
Pad with indents and then copying it into the opml editor creates a good
outline. I think Scrivener is based on opml and has all of the
functionality you mention. There seems to be a beta version of Scrivener
for Linux; it's well established for Windows and Mac; and I think once
the outlining is done the finished document exports to LO or M$ Word.

On Thu, 2013-10-10 at 15:09 -0700, CougarB wrote:

> When I was a full-time journalist in the 1980s, I became very successful
> using a dedicated outliner called PCOutline. When all the major Word
> Processers came along--MS Word, Word Perfect, etc, the lack of outliner
> functionality kept me with my archaic outliner until MS Word beat the
> functionality of PCOutline.
>
> I used outlining as my main method of work when a full-time technical writer
> in the 90s (e.g., Fujitsu Software in San Jose). While working for a java
> house, I was so influenced by the negative developer reactions to MS, that
> I've been wishing to move to OpenOffice or LibraOffice ever since they came
> along. But you don't have the functionality that I need, and furthermore,
> the discussions of outlining on this forum seem to miss the whole point,
> from my point of view.
>
> I'm a very motivated wannabe LibraOffice user who currently can't make the
> switch, because although I'm retired and writing fiction, the power of an
> outliner for writing in all genres is something I can't live without.
>
> So my reasons are complex--sorry about that--but tl:dr will not allow you to
> understand them. Please take the time. I really want to quit Microsoft
> Office forever and ever and ever. Thanx.
>
> The first functionality I need might seem mickey mouse, but it's the
> foundation for everything else. This is that in Word's outliner view,
> there's a button in front of every paragraph that I can drag and drop up and
> down. It's like cut and paste, but a lot faster. Combined with other
> features, it's extremely  powerful.
>
> The second functionality I need is to be able to collapse things. In an
> article of 25 paragraphs, I can hide every line except the first line of the
> paragraph, thus allowing me to see the entire article of 25 paragraphs on
> the screen at the same time. This allows me to completely rearrange the
> entire article by drop and drag.
>
> For editing a single sentence or paragraph, I insert a return between
> sentences, phrases, and even words, drop and drag these elements into a new
> order, and delete the returns. Voila! A much better constructed paragraph or
> sentence in a snap.
>
> The third functionality is to collapse things within headers. For instance,
> if I've interviewed a dozen people for an article or if I've brainstormed 5
> pages of random ideas for a blog or a chapter in a novel, I create headers
> for different topics and then drag and drop paragraphs, quotes, ideas, etc
> into the headers or buckets I've created. When one header becomes too full
> and fills too much of the screen, I collapse it, so that it hides all the
> paragraphs already there, which cleans up the screen. When I'm done with
> this step, I have half a dozen headers, under which are many different
> ideas, all of which are completely hidden.
>
> So I drag and drop my half a dozen headers into the correct order. Then I
> open the first main header and create a bunch of subheaders. Once this is
> done, I reorganize all of the points in this first section into subsections
> or sub-buckets, collapsing them all as needed until everything is organized
> into a number of different subheaders. At this point, I can rearrange all of
> these subheaders into the best order that they belong in. I can even drag a
> subheader into a different main heading if I choose, where it will remain as
> a separate section.
>
> I can repeat this process as many levels as I wish. This feature in MS Word
> is fractal to nine levels. From a chaotic mixture of confusion emerges
> order, insight, and wisdom--in one single step.
>
> As a technical writer, I used to sit in a brainstorming meetings, write down
> every developer idea as fast as I could (including those I didn't understand
> at all), type it all sequentially, and then very quickly organize all of the
> ideas into a coherent whole. The developers thought I actually knew how to
> program. (Mwah-hah-hah!)
>
> I could never have done that with LibreOffice as it's now configured or
> OpenOffice, either. Without my Word outliner, I would have been a shitty
> technical writer, and I would never have been able to write the developer
> guides I wrote.
>
> As a creative writer today, I currently have a dozen projects that are
> percolating, as well as one major project that I'm focusing on. I just
> brainstorm for anything that comes up, drag the ideas into the proper
> buckets, and I never lose anything of value. (Yes, the word "never" is
> absolutely accurate.)
>
> It's like having a Super Power that's available to everyone, but no one
> knows how to get it. Currently, this Super Power is only available in MS
> Word. Please make it possible for me to migrate to LibreOffice without
> losing my Super Powers. And please make these Super Powers available to the
> world. Doing so could cause the entire planet to evolve into better writers.
> You can help eliminate crappy writing!
>
> Until you do this, LibreOffice is like Kryptonite to me. I can't come near
> it, even though I truly want to.
>
> I beg of you: Please help poor little Cougar quit his addiction to
> Micro$oft! (Yeah, I know. Outliners do not eliminate the scourge of mixed
> metaphors.)
>
> For those of you who made it this far, thanx for listening.
> Cougar
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Feature-Request-Lack-of-Outliner-Functionality-a-Deal-Breaker-for-Me-tp4077564.html
> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>



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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

In reply to this post by CougarB

I am not a Macro person, but I wonder how much of this can be done with
Macros.

I know one book writer that does a great deal of his work through macros
he created over the years.  He could not find any word processor package
that did what he wanted so he learned to write macros.  First with Star
Office, then OOo, and now using LO on his Linux system.  I do not
remember all of the things he wrote about in his "author's notes" before
he got into his e-newsletter, but one time he did talk about all of the
things he needed to be done and went out to find a package that could do
it through the macros.  The last "author's notes" was about getting OOo
running on a new Linux system.  That was when it was in the late 1.x
stage or early 2.x one.  Just about 2 years ago, I found out he switched
to LO.  He no longer writes/co-writes 4 to 6 books a year, but he still
does a few, now that he is in his late 70's.

So
Those who are really good at writing Macros, how much of the info below
can be taken care of through some type of macros?



On 10/10/2013 06:09 PM, CougarB wrote:

> When I was a full-time journalist in the 1980s, I became very successful
> using a dedicated outliner called PCOutline. When all the major Word
> Processers came along--MS Word, Word Perfect, etc, the lack of outliner
> functionality kept me with my archaic outliner until MS Word beat the
> functionality of PCOutline.
>
> I used outlining as my main method of work when a full-time technical writer
> in the 90s (e.g., Fujitsu Software in San Jose). While working for a java
> house, I was so influenced by the negative developer reactions to MS, that
> I've been wishing to move to OpenOffice or LibraOffice ever since they came
> along. But you don't have the functionality that I need, and furthermore,
> the discussions of outlining on this forum seem to miss the whole point,
> from my point of view.
>
> I'm a very motivated wannabe LibraOffice user who currently can't make the
> switch, because although I'm retired and writing fiction, the power of an
> outliner for writing in all genres is something I can't live without.
>
> So my reasons are complex--sorry about that--but tl:dr will not allow you to
> understand them. Please take the time. I really want to quit Microsoft
> Office forever and ever and ever. Thanx.
>
> The first functionality I need might seem mickey mouse, but it's the
> foundation for everything else. This is that in Word's outliner view,
> there's a button in front of every paragraph that I can drag and drop up and
> down. It's like cut and paste, but a lot faster. Combined with other
> features, it's extremely  powerful.
>
> The second functionality I need is to be able to collapse things. In an
> article of 25 paragraphs, I can hide every line except the first line of the
> paragraph, thus allowing me to see the entire article of 25 paragraphs on
> the screen at the same time. This allows me to completely rearrange the
> entire article by drop and drag.
>
> For editing a single sentence or paragraph, I insert a return between
> sentences, phrases, and even words, drop and drag these elements into a new
> order, and delete the returns. Voila! A much better constructed paragraph or
> sentence in a snap.
>
> The third functionality is to collapse things within headers. For instance,
> if I've interviewed a dozen people for an article or if I've brainstormed 5
> pages of random ideas for a blog or a chapter in a novel, I create headers
> for different topics and then drag and drop paragraphs, quotes, ideas, etc
> into the headers or buckets I've created. When one header becomes too full
> and fills too much of the screen, I collapse it, so that it hides all the
> paragraphs already there, which cleans up the screen. When I'm done with
> this step, I have half a dozen headers, under which are many different
> ideas, all of which are completely hidden.
>
> So I drag and drop my half a dozen headers into the correct order. Then I
> open the first main header and create a bunch of subheaders. Once this is
> done, I reorganize all of the points in this first section into subsections
> or sub-buckets, collapsing them all as needed until everything is organized
> into a number of different subheaders. At this point, I can rearrange all of
> these subheaders into the best order that they belong in. I can even drag a
> subheader into a different main heading if I choose, where it will remain as
> a separate section.
>
> I can repeat this process as many levels as I wish. This feature in MS Word
> is fractal to nine levels. From a chaotic mixture of confusion emerges
> order, insight, and wisdom--in one single step.
>
> As a technical writer, I used to sit in a brainstorming meetings, write down
> every developer idea as fast as I could (including those I didn't understand
> at all), type it all sequentially, and then very quickly organize all of the
> ideas into a coherent whole. The developers thought I actually knew how to
> program. (Mwah-hah-hah!)
>
> I could never have done that with LibreOffice as it's now configured or
> OpenOffice, either. Without my Word outliner, I would have been a shitty
> technical writer, and I would never have been able to write the developer
> guides I wrote.
>
> As a creative writer today, I currently have a dozen projects that are
> percolating, as well as one major project that I'm focusing on. I just
> brainstorm for anything that comes up, drag the ideas into the proper
> buckets, and I never lose anything of value. (Yes, the word "never" is
> absolutely accurate.)
>
> It's like having a Super Power that's available to everyone, but no one
> knows how to get it. Currently, this Super Power is only available in MS
> Word. Please make it possible for me to migrate to LibreOffice without
> losing my Super Powers. And please make these Super Powers available to the
> world. Doing so could cause the entire planet to evolve into better writers.
> You can help eliminate crappy writing!
>
> Until you do this, LibreOffice is like Kryptonite to me. I can't come near
> it, even though I truly want to.
>
> I beg of you: Please help poor little Cougar quit his addiction to
> Micro$oft! (Yeah, I know. Outliners do not eliminate the scourge of mixed
> metaphors.)
>
> For those of you who made it this far, thanx for listening.
> Cougar
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Feature-Request-Lack-of-Outliner-Functionality-a-Deal-Breaker-for-Me-tp4077564.html
> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>


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jmadero jmadero
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

Just a friendly reminder that devs rarely track this mailing list. If
you have a feature request it belongs on our bug tracker
(bugs.freedesktop.org) else it will never get implemented.


Best,
Joel

On 10/10/2013 03:50 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

> I am not a Macro person, but I wonder how much of this can be done with
> Macros.
>
> I know one book writer that does a great deal of his work through macros
> he created over the years.  He could not find any word processor package
> that did what he wanted so he learned to write macros.  First with Star
> Office, then OOo, and now using LO on his Linux system.  I do not
> remember all of the things he wrote about in his "author's notes" before
> he got into his e-newsletter, but one time he did talk about all of the
> things he needed to be done and went out to find a package that could do
> it through the macros.  The last "author's notes" was about getting OOo
> running on a new Linux system.  That was when it was in the late 1.x
> stage or early 2.x one.  Just about 2 years ago, I found out he switched
> to LO.  He no longer writes/co-writes 4 to 6 books a year, but he still
> does a few, now that he is in his late 70's.
>
> So
> Those who are really good at writing Macros, how much of the info below
> can be taken care of through some type of macros?
>
>
>
> On 10/10/2013 06:09 PM, CougarB wrote:
>> When I was a full-time journalist in the 1980s, I became very successful
>> using a dedicated outliner called PCOutline. When all the major Word
>> Processers came along--MS Word, Word Perfect, etc, the lack of outliner
>> functionality kept me with my archaic outliner until MS Word beat the
>> functionality of PCOutline.
>>
>> I used outlining as my main method of work when a full-time technical writer
>> in the 90s (e.g., Fujitsu Software in San Jose). While working for a java
>> house, I was so influenced by the negative developer reactions to MS, that
>> I've been wishing to move to OpenOffice or LibraOffice ever since they came
>> along. But you don't have the functionality that I need, and furthermore,
>> the discussions of outlining on this forum seem to miss the whole point,
>> from my point of view.
>>
>> I'm a very motivated wannabe LibraOffice user who currently can't make the
>> switch, because although I'm retired and writing fiction, the power of an
>> outliner for writing in all genres is something I can't live without.
>>
>> So my reasons are complex--sorry about that--but tl:dr will not allow you to
>> understand them. Please take the time. I really want to quit Microsoft
>> Office forever and ever and ever. Thanx.
>>
>> The first functionality I need might seem mickey mouse, but it's the
>> foundation for everything else. This is that in Word's outliner view,
>> there's a button in front of every paragraph that I can drag and drop up and
>> down. It's like cut and paste, but a lot faster. Combined with other
>> features, it's extremely  powerful.
>>
>> The second functionality I need is to be able to collapse things. In an
>> article of 25 paragraphs, I can hide every line except the first line of the
>> paragraph, thus allowing me to see the entire article of 25 paragraphs on
>> the screen at the same time. This allows me to completely rearrange the
>> entire article by drop and drag.
>>
>> For editing a single sentence or paragraph, I insert a return between
>> sentences, phrases, and even words, drop and drag these elements into a new
>> order, and delete the returns. Voila! A much better constructed paragraph or
>> sentence in a snap.
>>
>> The third functionality is to collapse things within headers. For instance,
>> if I've interviewed a dozen people for an article or if I've brainstormed 5
>> pages of random ideas for a blog or a chapter in a novel, I create headers
>> for different topics and then drag and drop paragraphs, quotes, ideas, etc
>> into the headers or buckets I've created. When one header becomes too full
>> and fills too much of the screen, I collapse it, so that it hides all the
>> paragraphs already there, which cleans up the screen. When I'm done with
>> this step, I have half a dozen headers, under which are many different
>> ideas, all of which are completely hidden.
>>
>> So I drag and drop my half a dozen headers into the correct order. Then I
>> open the first main header and create a bunch of subheaders. Once this is
>> done, I reorganize all of the points in this first section into subsections
>> or sub-buckets, collapsing them all as needed until everything is organized
>> into a number of different subheaders. At this point, I can rearrange all of
>> these subheaders into the best order that they belong in. I can even drag a
>> subheader into a different main heading if I choose, where it will remain as
>> a separate section.
>>
>> I can repeat this process as many levels as I wish. This feature in MS Word
>> is fractal to nine levels. From a chaotic mixture of confusion emerges
>> order, insight, and wisdom--in one single step.
>>
>> As a technical writer, I used to sit in a brainstorming meetings, write down
>> every developer idea as fast as I could (including those I didn't understand
>> at all), type it all sequentially, and then very quickly organize all of the
>> ideas into a coherent whole. The developers thought I actually knew how to
>> program. (Mwah-hah-hah!)
>>
>> I could never have done that with LibreOffice as it's now configured or
>> OpenOffice, either. Without my Word outliner, I would have been a shitty
>> technical writer, and I would never have been able to write the developer
>> guides I wrote.
>>
>> As a creative writer today, I currently have a dozen projects that are
>> percolating, as well as one major project that I'm focusing on. I just
>> brainstorm for anything that comes up, drag the ideas into the proper
>> buckets, and I never lose anything of value. (Yes, the word "never" is
>> absolutely accurate.)
>>
>> It's like having a Super Power that's available to everyone, but no one
>> knows how to get it. Currently, this Super Power is only available in MS
>> Word. Please make it possible for me to migrate to LibreOffice without
>> losing my Super Powers. And please make these Super Powers available to the
>> world. Doing so could cause the entire planet to evolve into better writers.
>> You can help eliminate crappy writing!
>>
>> Until you do this, LibreOffice is like Kryptonite to me. I can't come near
>> it, even though I truly want to.
>>
>> I beg of you: Please help poor little Cougar quit his addiction to
>> Micro$oft! (Yeah, I know. Outliners do not eliminate the scourge of mixed
>> metaphors.)
>>
>> For those of you who made it this far, thanx for listening.
>> Cougar
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Feature-Request-Lack-of-Outliner-Functionality-a-Deal-Breaker-for-Me-tp4077564.html
>> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>


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Nino Nino
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

In reply to this post by CougarB
Am 11.10.2013 00:09, schrieb CougarB:

> It's like having a Super Power that's available to everyone, but no one
> knows how to get it.

Without being a writer myself, I somehow understand your needs.

What I do presently is using a mind mapping software (I use freemind[1]
for that) for arranging and rearranging stuff. This works quite to my
satisfaction but when finished, the whole composition has to be
transferred to LibreOffice: this also works quite well but then it
remains static from this point on. So if I want to re-arrange it, I have
to do it again in freemind.

It's a workaround.

Nino
[1] http://freemind.sourceforge.net

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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

In reply to this post by jmadero

I Know that the DEVs do not have much time to read these posts, but I
hoped that some poeple on this list might know enough about the Macros
to know if it was possible.

Since I am not on the DEVs list, maybe someone can forward the original
posting to their list????

I did not know a feature request was to go onto the BUGS tracking
system.  I thought it was just for posting bugs that crop up in a version.

On 10/10/2013 07:20 PM, Joel Madero wrote:

> Just a friendly reminder that devs rarely track this mailing list. If
> you have a feature request it belongs on our bug tracker
> (bugs.freedesktop.org) else it will never get implemented.
>
>
> Best,
> Joel
>
> On 10/10/2013 03:50 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:
>> I am not a Macro person, but I wonder how much of this can be done with
>> Macros.
>>
>> I know one book writer that does a great deal of his work through macros
>> he created over the years.  He could not find any word processor package
>> that did what he wanted so he learned to write macros.  First with Star
>> Office, then OOo, and now using LO on his Linux system.  I do not
>> remember all of the things he wrote about in his "author's notes" before
>> he got into his e-newsletter, but one time he did talk about all of the
>> things he needed to be done and went out to find a package that could do
>> it through the macros.  The last "author's notes" was about getting OOo
>> running on a new Linux system.  That was when it was in the late 1.x
>> stage or early 2.x one.  Just about 2 years ago, I found out he switched
>> to LO.  He no longer writes/co-writes 4 to 6 books a year, but he still
>> does a few, now that he is in his late 70's.
>>
>> So
>> Those who are really good at writing Macros, how much of the info below
>> can be taken care of through some type of macros?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/10/2013 06:09 PM, CougarB wrote:
>>> When I was a full-time journalist in the 1980s, I became very
>>> successful
>>> using a dedicated outliner called PCOutline. When all the major Word
>>> Processers came along--MS Word, Word Perfect, etc, the lack of outliner
>>> functionality kept me with my archaic outliner until MS Word beat the
>>> functionality of PCOutline.
>>>
>>> I used outlining as my main method of work when a full-time
>>> technical writer
>>> in the 90s (e.g., Fujitsu Software in San Jose). While working for a
>>> java
>>> house, I was so influenced by the negative developer reactions to
>>> MS, that
>>> I've been wishing to move to OpenOffice or LibraOffice ever since
>>> they came
>>> along. But you don't have the functionality that I need, and
>>> furthermore,
>>> the discussions of outlining on this forum seem to miss the whole
>>> point,
>>> from my point of view.
>>>
>>> I'm a very motivated wannabe LibraOffice user who currently can't
>>> make the
>>> switch, because although I'm retired and writing fiction, the power
>>> of an
>>> outliner for writing in all genres is something I can't live without.
>>>
>>> So my reasons are complex--sorry about that--but tl:dr will not
>>> allow you to
>>> understand them. Please take the time. I really want to quit Microsoft
>>> Office forever and ever and ever. Thanx.
>>>
>>> The first functionality I need might seem mickey mouse, but it's the
>>> foundation for everything else. This is that in Word's outliner view,
>>> there's a button in front of every paragraph that I can drag and
>>> drop up and
>>> down. It's like cut and paste, but a lot faster. Combined with other
>>> features, it's extremely  powerful.
>>>
>>> The second functionality I need is to be able to collapse things. In an
>>> article of 25 paragraphs, I can hide every line except the first
>>> line of the
>>> paragraph, thus allowing me to see the entire article of 25
>>> paragraphs on
>>> the screen at the same time. This allows me to completely rearrange the
>>> entire article by drop and drag.
>>>
>>> For editing a single sentence or paragraph, I insert a return between
>>> sentences, phrases, and even words, drop and drag these elements
>>> into a new
>>> order, and delete the returns. Voila! A much better constructed
>>> paragraph or
>>> sentence in a snap.
>>>
>>> The third functionality is to collapse things within headers. For
>>> instance,
>>> if I've interviewed a dozen people for an article or if I've
>>> brainstormed 5
>>> pages of random ideas for a blog or a chapter in a novel, I create
>>> headers
>>> for different topics and then drag and drop paragraphs, quotes,
>>> ideas, etc
>>> into the headers or buckets I've created. When one header becomes
>>> too full
>>> and fills too much of the screen, I collapse it, so that it hides
>>> all the
>>> paragraphs already there, which cleans up the screen. When I'm done
>>> with
>>> this step, I have half a dozen headers, under which are many different
>>> ideas, all of which are completely hidden.
>>>
>>> So I drag and drop my half a dozen headers into the correct order.
>>> Then I
>>> open the first main header and create a bunch of subheaders. Once
>>> this is
>>> done, I reorganize all of the points in this first section into
>>> subsections
>>> or sub-buckets, collapsing them all as needed until everything is
>>> organized
>>> into a number of different subheaders. At this point, I can
>>> rearrange all of
>>> these subheaders into the best order that they belong in. I can even
>>> drag a
>>> subheader into a different main heading if I choose, where it will
>>> remain as
>>> a separate section.
>>>
>>> I can repeat this process as many levels as I wish. This feature in
>>> MS Word
>>> is fractal to nine levels. From a chaotic mixture of confusion emerges
>>> order, insight, and wisdom--in one single step.
>>>
>>> As a technical writer, I used to sit in a brainstorming meetings,
>>> write down
>>> every developer idea as fast as I could (including those I didn't
>>> understand
>>> at all), type it all sequentially, and then very quickly organize
>>> all of the
>>> ideas into a coherent whole. The developers thought I actually knew
>>> how to
>>> program. (Mwah-hah-hah!)
>>>
>>> I could never have done that with LibreOffice as it's now configured or
>>> OpenOffice, either. Without my Word outliner, I would have been a
>>> shitty
>>> technical writer, and I would never have been able to write the
>>> developer
>>> guides I wrote.
>>>
>>> As a creative writer today, I currently have a dozen projects that are
>>> percolating, as well as one major project that I'm focusing on. I just
>>> brainstorm for anything that comes up, drag the ideas into the proper
>>> buckets, and I never lose anything of value. (Yes, the word "never" is
>>> absolutely accurate.)
>>>
>>> It's like having a Super Power that's available to everyone, but no one
>>> knows how to get it. Currently, this Super Power is only available
>>> in MS
>>> Word. Please make it possible for me to migrate to LibreOffice without
>>> losing my Super Powers. And please make these Super Powers available
>>> to the
>>> world. Doing so could cause the entire planet to evolve into better
>>> writers.
>>> You can help eliminate crappy writing!
>>>
>>> Until you do this, LibreOffice is like Kryptonite to me. I can't
>>> come near
>>> it, even though I truly want to.
>>>
>>> I beg of you: Please help poor little Cougar quit his addiction to
>>> Micro$oft! (Yeah, I know. Outliners do not eliminate the scourge of
>>> mixed
>>> metaphors.)
>>>
>>> For those of you who made it this far, thanx for listening.
>>> Cougar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Feature-Request-Lack-of-Outliner-Functionality-a-Deal-Breaker-for-Me-tp4077564.html
>>> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>
>
>
>


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CougarB CougarB
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

I'm grateful for the feedback, and I will definitely post this to the Bugzilla system. However, the Bugzilla system contains a warning about spam being generated from it, since addresses are revealed in the open. For this reason, I've been engaging in creating a spam-only email address, and I'm not quite finished with the process. I've been busy and haven't had time to respond to the other comments or to try out opml yet.

When I submit this as a bug, I'll include some of the comments as an addendum. Not all of the comments would be relevant in a feature request, but some might be.


On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 4:42 AM, krackedpress [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I Know that the DEVs do not have much time to read these posts, but I
hoped that some poeple on this list might know enough about the Macros
to know if it was possible.

Since I am not on the DEVs list, maybe someone can forward the original
posting to their list????

I did not know a feature request was to go onto the BUGS tracking
system.  I thought it was just for posting bugs that crop up in a version.

On 10/10/2013 07:20 PM, Joel Madero wrote:

> Just a friendly reminder that devs rarely track this mailing list. If
> you have a feature request it belongs on our bug tracker
> (bugs.freedesktop.org) else it will never get implemented.
>
>
> Best,
> Joel
>
> On 10/10/2013 03:50 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:
>> I am not a Macro person, but I wonder how much of this can be done with
>> Macros.
>>
>> I know one book writer that does a great deal of his work through macros
>> he created over the years.  He could not find any word processor package
>> that did what he wanted so he learned to write macros.  First with Star
>> Office, then OOo, and now using LO on his Linux system.  I do not
>> remember all of the things he wrote about in his "author's notes" before
>> he got into his e-newsletter, but one time he did talk about all of the
>> things he needed to be done and went out to find a package that could do
>> it through the macros.  The last "author's notes" was about getting OOo
>> running on a new Linux system.  That was when it was in the late 1.x
>> stage or early 2.x one.  Just about 2 years ago, I found out he switched
>> to LO.  He no longer writes/co-writes 4 to 6 books a year, but he still
>> does a few, now that he is in his late 70's.
>>
>> So
>> Those who are really good at writing Macros, how much of the info below
>> can be taken care of through some type of macros?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/10/2013 06:09 PM, CougarB wrote:
>>> When I was a full-time journalist in the 1980s, I became very
>>> successful
>>> using a dedicated outliner called PCOutline. When all the major Word
>>> Processers came along--MS Word, Word Perfect, etc, the lack of outliner
>>> functionality kept me with my archaic outliner until MS Word beat the
>>> functionality of PCOutline.
>>>
>>> I used outlining as my main method of work when a full-time
>>> technical writer
>>> in the 90s (e.g., Fujitsu Software in San Jose). While working for a
>>> java
>>> house, I was so influenced by the negative developer reactions to
>>> MS, that
>>> I've been wishing to move to OpenOffice or LibraOffice ever since
>>> they came
>>> along. But you don't have the functionality that I need, and
>>> furthermore,
>>> the discussions of outlining on this forum seem to miss the whole
>>> point,
>>> from my point of view.
>>>
>>> I'm a very motivated wannabe LibraOffice user who currently can't
>>> make the
>>> switch, because although I'm retired and writing fiction, the power
>>> of an
>>> outliner for writing in all genres is something I can't live without.
>>>
>>> So my reasons are complex--sorry about that--but tl:dr will not
>>> allow you to
>>> understand them. Please take the time. I really want to quit Microsoft
>>> Office forever and ever and ever. Thanx.
>>>
>>> The first functionality I need might seem mickey mouse, but it's the
>>> foundation for everything else. This is that in Word's outliner view,
>>> there's a button in front of every paragraph that I can drag and
>>> drop up and
>>> down. It's like cut and paste, but a lot faster. Combined with other
>>> features, it's extremely  powerful.
>>>
>>> The second functionality I need is to be able to collapse things. In an
>>> article of 25 paragraphs, I can hide every line except the first
>>> line of the
>>> paragraph, thus allowing me to see the entire article of 25
>>> paragraphs on
>>> the screen at the same time. This allows me to completely rearrange the
>>> entire article by drop and drag.
>>>
>>> For editing a single sentence or paragraph, I insert a return between
>>> sentences, phrases, and even words, drop and drag these elements
>>> into a new
>>> order, and delete the returns. Voila! A much better constructed
>>> paragraph or
>>> sentence in a snap.
>>>
>>> The third functionality is to collapse things within headers. For
>>> instance,
>>> if I've interviewed a dozen people for an article or if I've
>>> brainstormed 5
>>> pages of random ideas for a blog or a chapter in a novel, I create
>>> headers
>>> for different topics and then drag and drop paragraphs, quotes,
>>> ideas, etc
>>> into the headers or buckets I've created. When one header becomes
>>> too full
>>> and fills too much of the screen, I collapse it, so that it hides
>>> all the
>>> paragraphs already there, which cleans up the screen. When I'm done
>>> with
>>> this step, I have half a dozen headers, under which are many different
>>> ideas, all of which are completely hidden.
>>>
>>> So I drag and drop my half a dozen headers into the correct order.
>>> Then I
>>> open the first main header and create a bunch of subheaders. Once
>>> this is
>>> done, I reorganize all of the points in this first section into
>>> subsections
>>> or sub-buckets, collapsing them all as needed until everything is
>>> organized
>>> into a number of different subheaders. At this point, I can
>>> rearrange all of
>>> these subheaders into the best order that they belong in. I can even
>>> drag a
>>> subheader into a different main heading if I choose, where it will
>>> remain as
>>> a separate section.
>>>
>>> I can repeat this process as many levels as I wish. This feature in
>>> MS Word
>>> is fractal to nine levels. From a chaotic mixture of confusion emerges
>>> order, insight, and wisdom--in one single step.
>>>
>>> As a technical writer, I used to sit in a brainstorming meetings,
>>> write down
>>> every developer idea as fast as I could (including those I didn't
>>> understand
>>> at all), type it all sequentially, and then very quickly organize
>>> all of the
>>> ideas into a coherent whole. The developers thought I actually knew
>>> how to
>>> program. (Mwah-hah-hah!)
>>>
>>> I could never have done that with LibreOffice as it's now configured or
>>> OpenOffice, either. Without my Word outliner, I would have been a
>>> shitty
>>> technical writer, and I would never have been able to write the
>>> developer
>>> guides I wrote.
>>>
>>> As a creative writer today, I currently have a dozen projects that are
>>> percolating, as well as one major project that I'm focusing on. I just
>>> brainstorm for anything that comes up, drag the ideas into the proper
>>> buckets, and I never lose anything of value. (Yes, the word "never" is
>>> absolutely accurate.)
>>>
>>> It's like having a Super Power that's available to everyone, but no one
>>> knows how to get it. Currently, this Super Power is only available
>>> in MS
>>> Word. Please make it possible for me to migrate to LibreOffice without
>>> losing my Super Powers. And please make these Super Powers available
>>> to the
>>> world. Doing so could cause the entire planet to evolve into better
>>> writers.
>>> You can help eliminate crappy writing!
>>>
>>> Until you do this, LibreOffice is like Kryptonite to me. I can't
>>> come near
>>> it, even though I truly want to.
>>>
>>> I beg of you: Please help poor little Cougar quit his addiction to
>>> Micro$oft! (Yeah, I know. Outliners do not eliminate the scourge of
>>> mixed
>>> metaphors.)
>>>
>>> For those of you who made it this far, thanx for listening.
>>> Cougar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Feature-Request-Lack-of-Outliner-Functionality-a-Deal-Breaker-for-Me-tp4077564.html
>>> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>
>
>
>


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nabbler nabbler
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

In reply to this post by CougarB
On 10/10/2013, CougarB <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I used outlining as my main method of work when a full-time technical
> writer
> in the 90s (e.g., Fujitsu Software in San Jose). While working for a java
> house, I was so influenced by the negative developer reactions to MS, that
> I've been wishing to move to OpenOffice or LibraOffice ever since they came
> along. But you don't have the functionality that I need, and furthermore,
> the discussions of outlining on this forum seem to miss the whole point,
> from my point of view.
>

There are many outliner tools out there, why use a word-processor when
a text editor such as Leo or Jedit can achieve outline functionality?

Alternatively, use LO writer styles and the navigator toolbar.

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CougarB CougarB
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

I took a look at Leo, Jedit, and OPML, and frankly, none of them are as convenient as M$ Word. I'm using Word as both a word processor and an outliner, and it's extremely convenient to be working on a document as an outline, then move over to a word processing mode without losing the outline structure, and work with formatting and other elements that are convenient in that view, and then move back to outlining without losing my formatting and other tools that are available in Word. When I'm writing in outline format, I even want to just experience my novel as it will be read on the page, and then go back to using the outliner.

In Eric B's first post, he recommended OPML but stated that once the document was moved over to LO or OO, it was no longer in outline format and could no longer be manipulated as an outline. This is what I found in looking at every option that anyone here has recommended.

In http://cribsheet.opml.org, there are a lot of comments by people who also want to have their outliner also act as a word processor. There's no export facility in OPML that preserves the outline structure once you cut and paste the text into your word processor, and the users include many old-time outliner users who think that OPML is the best of the options.

The reason I'm currently sticking with Word is I need a tool that is both a word processor and an excellent outliner, such that I don't have to cut and paste, thereby losing the outline structure. I need to be able to constantly go back and forth between the two views--which is how Word handles it--as two views.

That's why I am not willing to give up my current use of Word. On the cripsheet page for OPML, you'll find ample evidence that I'm not alone is request this feature.



On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM, nabbler [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10/10/2013, CougarB <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I used outlining as my main method of work when a full-time technical
> writer
> in the 90s (e.g., Fujitsu Software in San Jose). While working for a java
> house, I was so influenced by the negative developer reactions to MS, that
> I've been wishing to move to OpenOffice or LibraOffice ever since they came
> along. But you don't have the functionality that I need, and furthermore,
> the discussions of outlining on this forum seem to miss the whole point,
> from my point of view.
>
There are many outliner tools out there, why use a word-processor when
a text editor such as Leo or Jedit can achieve outline functionality?

Alternatively, use LO writer styles and the navigator toolbar.

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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

In reply to this post by krackedpress
On 10/10/2013 10:50 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

> I am not a Macro person, but I wonder how much of this can be done with Macros.

This is where it would have been extremely useful to have access to
source code for OOo extensions.

Everything requested was not only doable, but done by people using OOo
2.x, and the appropriate extensions. Those extensions were, naturally
enough, broken in OOo 3.x.

Use Running Headers, configure Outline Numbering appropriately, and use
Navigator to move the paragraphs around, will take care of the first
request.

I've forgotten what the name of the extension that provided the
functionality described in the second and third request.  :(
Adroit use of Navigator almost suffices for that functionality.

Navigator does have its annoyances, chief of which is collapsing when
switching between different objects within the document.

jonathon

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CougarB CougarB
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

Macros are not the answer. Even with the best, most focused macros, I would not be able to reduce the amount of time and the number of clicks sufficiently to equal the efficiency of the Word outliner. That's dreaming. Here's a case in point, and in the PS after my signature, I'm providing a second case.

I just got an email from someone who took notes at the same meeting as me. However, she brainstormed an entirely new direction, which was our agreement. Combining the two emails and breaking up every paragraph into separate points yielded 35 paragraphs of between 1 and 4 lines, totaling 78 lines, which is too much to display on a single page, especially with spaces between paragraphs. However with Word, with one click, I collapsed all the paragraphs into single lines--which is like code folding.

I created five heading buttons, which required five returns and one ctrl-arrow. (Plus typing the titles.) Then I began dragging the points up into the headers. This required one click to capture the paragraph and a mouse move and release to drop. Periodically, I had to collapse the five headers so that all of the points under each one were hidden. Doing this literally took two clicks and no scrolling. I did this three times.

The first edit was done after 41 clicks (35 paragraphs + 6 clicks to collapse header sections). However, once all of the points were distributed in the five headers, I had to repeat the process with a header that had eighteen points in it. By the time I was done, I had clicked 22 more times, for a total of 63 clicks, and no delay between them. It was extremely fast and efficient, though I wasn't timing it and can't tell you how long it took.

Using the native methods in LibraOffice, I would have to click three times to highlight each paragraph and then I could have sometimes dragged and dropped it. I suspect that most of the time, I would have had to right click and left click to cut it, navigate with one more click using the Navigator,  click to establish an insertion point, and right click and left click to paste it, and then navigate to the raw notes with one more click. This would take 4 to 10 clicks, depending whether or not navigation was necessary or whether it could be dragged and dropped. If two thirds of the moves required navigation (420 clicks), which is reasonable for this project, the entire thing would would have required approximately 492 clicks to accomplish what I accomplished with 63 clicks. In addition, it would have taken considerably longer, since my method doesn't require any navigation at all. (If only half the moves required navigation, it would still cost me 441 clicks.)

LibreOffice would quickly give me carpal tunnel syndrome, because I do this kind of work constantly. It would also literally cut my efficiency in half, and because I would be spending so much more time and energy on the mechanics, I would be tired sooner and less clear in my delivery.

This is why I can't switch from Word to LibreOffice. Since I prefer to get away from M$, an integrated outliner in LO is vital to what I want. But I won't make the switch when it will hurt my health, my time, my projects, and my goals.

Cougar

PS. I told you in my original post that I used to take notes as a senior technical writer in developer brainstorm meetings. It was not uncommon for my shorthand notes to fill many pages, and when I typed them, a regular length brainstorming meeting probably created 500 to 700 lines of notes.

With a document of that size, literally all of it would require using the Navigator to move around the different points to distribute the notes into their correct buckets. With my method, the organization of these points into categories would probably have taken at least 1000 clicks, counting the subcategorization. However, using LO would require at least 10,000 clicks (probably many more) and would extend the time required to organize the notes into something coherent by a huge amount of time.




On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 9:05 PM, toki.kantoor [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10/10/2013 10:50 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

> I am not a Macro person, but I wonder how much of this can be done with Macros.

This is where it would have been extremely useful to have access to
source code for OOo extensions.

Everything requested was not only doable, but done by people using OOo
2.x, and the appropriate extensions. Those extensions were, naturally
enough, broken in OOo 3.x.

Use Running Headers, configure Outline Numbering appropriately, and use
Navigator to move the paragraphs around, will take care of the first
request.

I've forgotten what the name of the extension that provided the
functionality described in the second and third request.  :(
Adroit use of Navigator almost suffices for that functionality.

Navigator does have its annoyances, chief of which is collapsing when
switching between different objects within the document.

jonathon

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Jean-Baptiste Faure Jean-Baptiste Faure
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

In reply to this post by CougarB
Le 11/10/2013 00:09, CougarB a écrit :
> When I was a full-time journalist in the 1980s, I became very successful
> using a dedicated outliner called PCOutline. When all the major Word
> Processers came along--MS Word, Word Perfect, etc, the lack of outliner
> functionality kept me with my archaic outliner until MS Word beat the
> functionality of PCOutline.

As a partial workaround, did you try the menu File > Send > Create
AutoAbstract... ?

Best regards
JBF

--
Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.

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CougarB CougarB
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

As I stated earlier in the thread, I have a working solution, right now, but I would prefer to stop using M$ for ideological reasons. I'm not looking for a work around, but a replacement. That's why I created this thread and that's why I also filed a feature request in Bugzilla for the same thing. And by the way, this single issue also is a deal breaker for using Linux, so this one issue influences everything.

I had a Linux partition on my last computer, but I found that I had to duplicate resources by having them on both partitions. When I ran out of space and had to replace the partition, I resented Linux, because I was only using it for ideological reasons, and I could not leave Windows behind until I had a fully functioning Office suite, with an integrated outliner. So in reality, the lack of outliner functionality is a deal breaker for me for everything, including whether or not I use Linux.


On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 2:26 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 11/10/2013 00:09, CougarB a écrit :
> When I was a full-time journalist in the 1980s, I became very successful
> using a dedicated outliner called PCOutline. When all the major Word
> Processers came along--MS Word, Word Perfect, etc, the lack of outliner
> functionality kept me with my archaic outliner until MS Word beat the
> functionality of PCOutline.

As a partial workaround, did you try the menu File > Send > Create
AutoAbstract... ?

Best regards
JBF

--
Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.

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Tom Tom
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

Hi :) 
I often make the Gnu&Linux partitions quite small and keep the majority of my files on the Windows side. 

Ironically my network file-shares are all on Debian so i kinda go from my Gnu&Linux system into the Windows side to hunt around and then use links from there into the Debian.  (Unless i knew it was on the server right from the start and was able to dodge hunting through Windows folders. 


As we have probably said many times before on this list there is often 1 or 2 things that you don't know how to do on the newer system and that often means going back to Windows to do those 1 or 2 things.  As you become more familiar the number of things you have to go back for drops quite a bit but it does usually leave 1 or 2 things that linger on for ages after. 

Obviously when you first start it's all new to you so you probably spend most time in Windows and only occasionally bounce over to the other but one day you find you have tipped the other way.  For me it was when i found Wesnoth and the same weekend my neighbour fixed multimedia.  Nowadays multimedia seems to work straight out of the box and 0AD looks better. 

Generally if i have to use Windows it's an older version of Windows or older software.  I don't really need to keep things so up-to-date anymore.  At the moment it is hilarious to watch people 'having to' shell out loads of money to replace their 'old' versions of MSO 2010 which are now out-dated compared to what people are buying on newer home machines.  One chap has bought 3 different versions of MS Office within the last year and still has problems with people not being able to open his files because they are on a different version. 

Incidentally i am sorry we couldn't find a suitable replacement but i'm glad to hear you have at least found a work-around.  It sounds like you are nearing your tipping point. 
Regards from
Tom :) 





On Sunday, 13 October 2013, 15:14, CougarB <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
As I stated earlier in the thread, I have a working solution, right now,
but I would prefer to stop using M$ for ideological reasons. I'm not
looking for a work around, but a replacement. That's why I created this
thread and that's why I also filed a feature request in Bugzilla for the
same thing. And by the way, this single issue also is a deal breaker for
using Linux, so this one issue influences everything.

I had a Linux partition on my last computer, but I found that I had to
duplicate resources by having them on both partitions. When I ran out of
space and had to replace the partition, I resented Linux, because I was
only using it for ideological reasons, and I could not leave Windows behind
until I had a fully functioning Office suite, with an integrated outliner.
So in reality, the lack of outliner functionality is a deal breaker for me
for everything, including whether or not I use Linux.


On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 2:26 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure [via Document
Foundation Mail Archive] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 11/10/2013 00:09, CougarB a écrit :
> > When I was a full-time journalist in the 1980s, I became very successful
> > using a dedicated outliner called PCOutline. When all the major Word
> > Processers came along--MS Word, Word Perfect, etc, the lack of outliner
> > functionality kept me with my archaic outliner until MS Word beat the
> > functionality of PCOutline.
>
> As a partial workaround, did you try the menu File > Send > Create
> AutoAbstract... ?
>
> Best regards
> JBF
>
> --
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nabbler nabbler
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

In reply to this post by CougarB
On 13/10/2013, CougarB <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I took a look at Leo, Jedit, and OPML, and frankly, none of them are as
> convenient as M$ Word. I'm using Word as both a word processor and an
> outliner, and it's extremely convenient to be working on a document as an
> outline, then move over to a word processing mode without losing the
> outline structure, and work with formatting and other elements that are
> convenient in that view, and then move back to outlining without losing my
> formatting and other tools that are available in Word. When I'm writing in
> outline format, I even want to just experience my novel as it will be read
> on the page, and then go back to using the outliner.
>

Without using m$, it would seem that the outliner feature may be one
reason for document instability; how does moving of nodes cope with
internal cross-references and bibliographic references for example?
How stable is outliner functionality with images?

The options to proceed:

Change your behaviour and adapt to use LO writer styles

Carry out benefit-cost analysis of you using m$ compared to learning
programming to implement outline behaviour in LO, perhaps as an LO
extension. In this case you should contact the LO programmers and
others for further help to build such an extension.

Use a text editor, then import to LO writer and apply styles
accordingly (could use find & replace function)

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nabbler nabbler
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

In reply to this post by CougarB
On 13/10/2013, CougarB <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I just got an email from someone who took notes at the same meeting as me.
> However, she brainstormed an entirely new direction, which was our
> agreement. Combining the two emails and breaking up every paragraph into
> separate points yielded 35 paragraphs of between 1 and 4 lines, totaling 78
> lines, which is too much to display on a single page, especially with
> spaces between paragraphs. However with Word, with one click, I collapsed
> all the paragraphs into single lines--which is like code folding.
>

As suggested by someone, freemind can achieve nice node collapse/expansion

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CougarB CougarB
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

None of the work-arounds have the value of going back and forth constantly between outliner and word processor functions. It's not costing me tonnes of money--when I had to buy a new computer, since it had to be Windows because of the fact that nothing yet replaces Word, that's what I bought. Then I installed all my old software on it. My Adobe is out of date, so I used other stuff. My M$ Office 2003 works just fine, so I don't have to replace any software for my new computer. The Linux partition was the only reason I had to buy another computer at that time, but I would have run out of space sooner or later, anyway, so rather than eliminate the Linux computer, I just bought another one.

But I only use Windows today for one reason--the outliner in Word. Nothing else is essential. And none of the workarounds suggested hold a candle to what I need. Maybe Scrivener, which has enough features that I like that I can see potentially using that as my means of dumping Windows.

I have some PHP code that I haven't uploaded yet on the Linux partition of the old computer, so I had to keep that computer & partition so that I wouldn't lose my work, mainly because I'm too lazy to deal with a low priority upload at this moment. My current IDE is ShiftEdit which runs on any OS, because I'm not going to let myself get trapped in one OS or the other until I'm ready to dump Windows all together, which depends on finding a full-featured word processor that allows seamless switching back and forth between outliner and print/normal modes. Literally everything about that switch depends on finding a Linux office suite that does everything I want regarding the outliner. Otherwise, I'm stuck with Windows forever.

My new laptop has a 17-inch screen, which is better for the kind of work I'm constantly doing, but I'm annoyed at Windows 8, and it just makes me wish with more desire for LO to actually be able to replace what I do now.

I do have one small fear, which is probably groundless. I have a document in Word which is almost 1.5 million words long, and which has around 15,000 cross references. In an early version of OO, I couldn't pull in an earlier version of this document without breaking OO. I'm a little nervous about my doc in LO, but I haven't tried it, and since what I have isn't broken, I'm not taking a whole lot of time to investigate. In addition, I've taken most of the cross references and imported them into the PHP and database, which is the ultimate destination of the entire 1.5 million-word project, thereby producing a prototype with 720 dynamic pages on the web. (This prototype only contains a small portion of the 1.5 million words, but it covers the entire set of cross-references.) So theoretically, the need to maintain all of those cross-references in a doc is no longer so important.

This is a project I dreamed up when computers weighed twenty tonnes and ate punch cards, and when hypertext hadn't been invented yet. I've been collecting/inventing/writing the content ever since. I'm now actualizing it exactly as dreamed, including the UI. Where the hell did that dream come from, eh?

Cougar

PS. And by the way, I had the entire project visualized as some sort of open-source back in 1976, which is interesting, given that open-source was a rare concept back then. I don't yet have enough of the infrastructure built, yet, to begin to actualize that part of the vision, but then, I've at least started with the basic plugins that will form the infrastructure for opening up the content to allow multiple authors, and I've got plans. I'm used to thinking long-term. I'm a beginner in both PHP and JavaScript programming, so it will take a while. But then 1.5 million words already took a while. It'll take the time it takes.

Working without a fully integrated outliner/word processor would slow me down.


On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 9:42 AM, nabbler [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 13/10/2013, CougarB <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I just got an email from someone who took notes at the same meeting as me.
> However, she brainstormed an entirely new direction, which was our
> agreement. Combining the two emails and breaking up every paragraph into
> separate points yielded 35 paragraphs of between 1 and 4 lines, totaling 78
> lines, which is too much to display on a single page, especially with
> spaces between paragraphs. However with Word, with one click, I collapsed
> all the paragraphs into single lines--which is like code folding.
>

As suggested by someone, freemind can achieve nice node collapse/expansion

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TonyB TonyB
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

In reply to this post by CougarB
As a technical writer I understand the need for an Outliner.
Well LibreOffice has Outliner built in!!!
If you use styles on your paragraphs and then use the Navigator (F5) you can move headings up and down.
You can move the heading and all the text below the heading or just the heading.
So just create headings of different levels.
Works just like I remember Word 2003 working.
Haven't used Word since 2003 so am not sure if the outliner features have changed.

Try the LibreOffice Navigator and you will be surprised at what can be done.

Hope this helps

Tony
CougarB CougarB
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Re: Feature Request: Lack of Outliner Functionality a Deal Breaker for Me

Hi, Tony,

I understand that you're getting great value from the navigator in LO. There are features, however, in Word that are hard to live without for me in what I do all the time. As I described in my original post, I currently drag and drop paragraphs which do not have headers, and I don't like the idea of having to put a header on every paragraph I want to use the process for.

In addition, I can use a single click of the button to disappear all but the first line of the text, which can be very long on a wide screen computer with no word wrap. To accomplish the efficiencies of this way of organizing with LO takes much longer and more key strokes and mouse clicks.

Someone else made a suggestion that was different than yours, and since I had just used my method, I was able to give an exact comparison between his method and mine.  I don't have a similarly short project to do the same with your method, but his method would have taken around 450 mouse clicks to accomplish what I did with 63 clicks and much less time.

I apologize if this is comparing apples with oranges, but I also do understand that I'm comparing fruit with fruit, and there is some validity to doing so. No one has suggested anything that comes close to my methods of work. Someone suggested Scrivener, and when I was checking out the site, I discovered their Scapple mind-mapping software, which was so much better than anything that I've tried so far that I immediately got distracted, bought it, and have been using it for a massive project I'm now very focused on. But I never got around to actually checking out Scrivener, so I have no comment on it, other than I'm predisposed to liking their software now.

At the moment, I'm mostly overwhelmed with my current massive project, working late into the night, every single night, and I'm not giving much attention to this discussion any more. Even romance has trouble breaking through my focus, right now--and believe me, romance has an upper hand in any battle between her and this discussion.

Thanks for your suggestion.