Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

I'm having trouble with this entire thread.

Here's what I know:

 1. Font Embedding is *not* supported in ODF 1.2 (although there is probably room for implementers to provide it using a convention that does not break compatibility -- that is, implementations that are not implemented to be aware of the convention will safely ignore it).  I don't know that anyone is addressing this in an implementation though.

 2. Font substitutions, something you get to specify in your copy of LibreOffice, can be used to map, especially when there are issues that prevent the font from being embedded but for which there are successful substitutes.  I notice a couple of Linux-provided Unicode fonts in current distributions that can be used that way. This won't help for specific decorative fonts and their metrics, however.

 3. There are other ways to make fonts available in the meantime, although not so straightforward as embedded fonts, they also don't make the document bigger.

 4. It is incorrect to presume that Font Embedding will not be in ODF 1.3 or any other.  While font embedding did not make the feature cut in the prioritization for ODF 1.2, that does not mean it can't be resurrected.  It is early days for ODF 1.3, which is scheduled to take a two-year development process.
    What is *missing* is a serious proposal that deals with the complexities, borrows from some already-worked-out approach in other software, and is brought forth at the ODF TC in an unencumbered form.  Someone has to do the heavy lifting.  
    You can also respond to the public review, although something concrete that can be used in a constructive manner would be particularly welcome.  The ODF TC *has* to address every Public Review comment, although that doesn't mean we will do anything about it.  Good catches will probably be saved up for an Errata or lead to action in ODF 1.3.
 
 5. For a snapshot of what the ODF TC is doing now, it is useful to look at the ODF TC list archive (linked from the home page,< http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office>).  
    Anyone can examine the JIRA issues being worked on (and subscribe to JIRA-issue notices on Twitter [;<).  
    You'll from the minutes and the separate Advanced Collaboration Subcommittee list that change-tracking is the most difficult topic at the moment.  
    Meanwhile, a number of small defects are starting to surface for consideration in an ODF 1.2 Errata (probably a year from now) or in ODF 1.3 (with Committee Drafts coming out roughly every six months).  The first cut for content in the first ODF 1.3 Committee Draft is coming up in July.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Paré [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 14:11
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

Le 2011-06-24 13:13, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

> Hello,
>
> Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT),
> plino<[hidden email]>  a écrit :
>
>> I really hope that revision 1.2 allows for font embedding in ODF
>> documents.
>>
>> IMO that is a (the?) major obstacle for sharing documents with other
>> users.
>
> So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
> 1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
> faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
> office document exchanges.
>
> Best,
>
> Charles.
>

Hi Charles

I wonder about this last statement, does this mean that if I download a
copy of our documentation in .odt format, that if my font is missing
from my machine that I will not be able to print a high quality version
of that documentation. And worse, if I download a copy of a writer,
impress file or draw and wish to print it off in its native file, that I
would then have to hunt around and make sure that all of the necessary
fonts used in a particular document would have to be installed on my
machine so that I could get a high quality print from it?

[ ... ]


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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

Dennis E. Hamilton wrote
 4. It is incorrect to presume that Font Embedding will not be in ODF 1.3 or any other.  While font embedding did not make the feature cut in the prioritization for ODF 1.2, that does not mean it can't be resurrected.  It is early days for ODF 1.3, which is scheduled to take a two-year development process.
    What is *missing* is a serious proposal that deals with the complexities, borrows from some already-worked-out approach in other software, and is brought forth at the ODF TC in an unencumbered form.  Someone has to do the heavy lifting.  
    You can also respond to the public review, although something concrete that can be used in a constructive manner would be particularly welcome.  The ODF TC *has* to address every Public Review comment, although that doesn't mean we will do anything about it.  Good catches will probably be saved up for an Errata or lead to action in ODF 1.3.
Le 2011-06-24 13:13, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

> So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
> 1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
> faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
> office document exchanges.
>
> Best,
>
> Charles.
Even if font embedding is included in ODF 1.3 (which is unlikely according to Charles' statement) that will only happen in 2 years time.

I think TDF and LO are betting on the wrong horse. It's not only going to start the race much later but also there seems to be no guarantee that it will run faster or better (if Charles' statement is correct they aren't even on the same race because their goals are different)

In any case, if LibreOffice's goal is to be a suite that stands behind the ODF format then it should review what it promises. If it can't embed fonts, it can never be a replacement for MS Office.
Manfred Usselmann Manfred Usselmann
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 01:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
plino <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In any case, if LibreOffice's goal is to be a suite that stands
> behind the ODF format then it should review what it promises. If it
> can't embed fonts, it can never be a replacement for MS Office.

Does MS Office embed fonts?

Manfred

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Goran Rakic Goran Rakic
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

У суб, 25. 06 2011. у 12:34 +0200, Manfred Usselmann пише:
>
> Does MS Office embed fonts?


It is a rarely used option, disabled by default.

To use it not breaking copyright law, you need to have a properly
licensed font. If you are using non-free font, usually you are not
allowed to redistribute it in your document.

PDF does not embed complete font, just the forms used in the document.
With editable documents, you need to have complete font.

Kind regards,
Goran Rakic


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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

In reply to this post by Manfred Usselmann
Le Sat, 25 Jun 2011 12:34:29 +0200,
Manfred Usselmann <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 01:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
> plino <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > In any case, if LibreOffice's goal is to be a suite that stands
> > behind the ODF format then it should review what it promises. If it
> > can't embed fonts, it can never be a replacement for MS Office.
>
> Does MS Office embed fonts?
>
> Manfred
>

No it doesn't. But I think we're also missing the point if -let's say
we were to design a brand new office file format that embeds or does
not embed fonts- why should anyone be using it? Choosing a format
that's not the dominant format is already a reasoned choice, oftentimes
an act of departure from the dominant player, and sometimes a political
act. Embedding fonts will not magically solve the MSFT formats
dominance in the field of office suite. The challenger here is ODF,
which has a rather wide support that extends much beyond LibreOffice.
We certainly can improve ODF and are encouraged to do so; but I would
like to point out that document formats follow (strange?)specific rules
and patterns that usually do not rely on any specific feature that
would decide its dominance. The most famous pattern here is the network
effect, essentially meaning that the more a format gets used, well...
the more it gets used :) In order to change its dominance you need to
be breaking its "network" of users and you can't do it because you have
something better (okay, you should have something better, but it
usually does not rely on the format if it's meant to serve the same
purposes) but because users or the ones mandating such uses have taken
the decision to stop using the dominant format. Hence the value of
standardization that helps enable a level playing field for the
competition but also acts as a value proposition that has in itself the
merit of breaking the habit of using the format of the dominant player.


Best,
Charles.

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

Charles-H. Schulz wrote
No it doesn't.
Of course it does.  Maybe you don't use it or don't know how to do it. But don't say it doesn't.

Charles-H. Schulz wrote
But I think we're also missing the point if -let's say
we were to design a brand new office file format that embeds or does
not embed fonts- why should anyone be using it? Choosing a format
that's not the dominant format is already a reasoned choice, oftentimes
an act of departure from the dominant player, and sometimes a political
act.
I think you are missing the point: it's not simply a matter of the embedded fonts. If the brand new file format that you are creating wants to attract users it can never have less features than the one it wants to replace. Or at least it can not miss critical features.

Even if people want to switch for "political" reasons, I'm sure they don't want their work crippled...
Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

Le Sat, 25 Jun 2011 08:01:26 -0700 (PDT),
plino <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>
> Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> >
> > No it doesn't.
> >
>
> Of course it does.  Maybe you don't use it or don't know how to do
> it. But don't say it doesn't.

So are you saying your word documents embed fonts on a daily basis?
I've never seen any similar documents. You get the impression of that
-maybe- because on a windows to windows environment everybody uses
fonts that are already available on the system. Of course, ODF (and
others) do keep the reference of the font name and if I have the same
font on my system it will try to reuse the same font. But just for
reference: except for specific cases: office document formats including
MSOffice DON'T include fonts. PDF does (there are less used formats)
and that's what it's know for.


>
>
> Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> >
> > But I think we're also missing the point if -let's say
> > we were to design a brand new office file format that embeds or does
> > not embed fonts- why should anyone be using it? Choosing a format
> > that's not the dominant format is already a reasoned choice,
> > oftentimes an act of departure from the dominant player, and
> > sometimes a political act.
>
> I think you are missing the point: it's not simply a matter of the
> embedded fonts. If the brand new file format that you are creating
> wants to attract users it can never have less features than the one
> it wants to replace. Or at least it can not miss critical features.


Network effect. Do you have any idea how many superior formats have
been created but that never got adopted?

>
> Even if people want to switch for "political" reasons, I'm sure they
> don't want their work crippled...


They don't, that's true. But don't mix the various purposes of formats.

Best,
Charles.


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aqualung aqualung
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

In reply to this post by Dennis E. Hamilton
Dennis E. Hamilton wrote
 3. There are other ways to make fonts available in the meantime, although not so straightforward as embedded fonts, they also don't make the document bigger.
A similar discussion took place in March and I suggested then  a combination of education/documentation and cooperation with websites offering fonts with generous licenses. Nobody took up my offer then to start on a first draft of expanding the Help (web-based and locally installed) in that direction. Maybe I should offer again in the "Documentation" section of Nabble?
Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

In reply to this post by Dennis E. Hamilton
The reason for the periodic Committee Drafts is to have reasonably-stable feature specifications that implementers can start on and confirm the specification of before we do the work to produce the final stable specification (a Committee Specification) that then goes forward as a Candidate OASIS Standard and then OASIS Standard.  

I think this conversation needs to be made more concrete.

The inclusion of font embedding into the ODF 1.x specification is not the issue.

The issue is, who has it be such an imperative that they are willing to have and document an implementation-specific solution well enough that others can interoperate with it.  Then, or concurrently, it can be rolled into the ODF specification work as the basis for an independently-implementable, interoperable feature of ODF.  

The ODF TC does not implement anything.  And it is a waste of the volunteer efforts of the ODF TC participants to specify features that no one implements or that are not practically implementable or for which there are already good-enough solutions that can be adapted.  There's a hand-and-glove partnership required for a feature as substantial as font embedding.

So far, I have not heard any offers.

 - Dennis

PS: Since August 2008, when I became a member of the ODF TC, I don't recall any conclusion that font embedding is out of scope for the OpenDocument Format. I don't know what such an assertion might be based on.  It is definitely the case that the ODF specification does not specify the rendering and presentation of documents.  But that doesn't exclude font embedding.  After all, there are already significant provisions for fonts in ODF, they just don't encompass embedding font files.

-----Original Message-----
From: plino [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 01:26
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [tdf-discuss] Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)


Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

>
>  4. It is incorrect to presume that Font Embedding will not be in ODF 1.3
> or any other.  While font embedding did not make the feature cut in the
> prioritization for ODF 1.2, that does not mean it can't be resurrected.
> It is early days for ODF 1.3, which is scheduled to take a two-year
> development process.
>     What is *missing* is a serious proposal that deals with the
> complexities, borrows from some already-worked-out approach in other
> software, and is brought forth at the ODF TC in an unencumbered form.
> Someone has to do the heavy lifting.  
>     You can also respond to the public review, although something concrete
> that can be used in a constructive manner would be particularly welcome.
> The ODF TC *has* to address every Public Review comment, although that
> doesn't mean we will do anything about it.  Good catches will probably be
> saved up for an Errata or lead to action in ODF 1.3.
>



> Le 2011-06-24 13:13, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
>
>> So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
>> 1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
>> faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
>> office document exchanges.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Charles.
>

Even if font embedding is included in ODF 1.3 (which is unlikely according
to Charles' statement) that will only happen in 2 years time.

I think TDF and LO are betting on the wrong horse. It's not only going to
start the race much later but also there seems to be no guarantee that it
will run faster or better (if Charles' statement is correct they aren't even
on the same race because their goals are different)

In any case, if LibreOffice's goal is to be a suite that stands behind the
ODF format then it should review what it promises. If it can't embed fonts,
it can never be a replacement for MS Office.

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Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

Hi Dennis

Le 2011-06-25 12:40, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :

> The reason for the periodic Committee Drafts is to have reasonably-stable feature specifications that implementers can start on and confirm the specification of before we do the work to produce the final stable specification (a Committee Specification) that then goes forward as a Candidate OASIS Standard and then OASIS Standard.
>
> I think this conversation needs to be made more concrete.
>
> The inclusion of font embedding into the ODF 1.x specification is not the issue.
>
> The issue is, who has it be such an imperative that they are willing to have and document an implementation-specific solution well enough that others can interoperate with it.  Then, or concurrently, it can be rolled into the ODF specification work as the basis for an independently-implementable, interoperable feature of ODF.
>
> The ODF TC does not implement anything.  And it is a waste of the volunteer efforts of the ODF TC participants to specify features that no one implements or that are not practically implementable or for which there are already good-enough solutions that can be adapted.  There's a hand-and-glove partnership required for a feature as substantial as font embedding.
>
> So far, I have not heard any offers.
>
>   - Dennis
>
> PS: Since August 2008, when I became a member of the ODF TC, I don't recall any conclusion that font embedding is out of scope for the OpenDocument Format. I don't know what such an assertion might be based on.  It is definitely the case that the ODF specification does not specify the rendering and presentation of documents.  But that doesn't exclude font embedding.  After all, there are already significant provisions for fonts in ODF, they just don't encompass embedding font files.

Thanks for the information. This all sounds promising to me. So
essentially, what you are saying is if ... "hypothetically" ... a
proposal were to be put forward for embedding fonts and a group such as
LibreOffice showed a committed willingness to use this new option with
... let's say ... a LibreOffice Reader and if other groups were to
support this new option, then it may pass?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: plino [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 01:26
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [tdf-discuss] Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)
>
>
> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>   4. It is incorrect to presume that Font Embedding will not be in ODF 1.3
>> or any other.  While font embedding did not make the feature cut in the
>> prioritization for ODF 1.2, that does not mean it can't be resurrected.
>> It is early days for ODF 1.3, which is scheduled to take a two-year
>> development process.
>>      What is *missing* is a serious proposal that deals with the
>> complexities, borrows from some already-worked-out approach in other
>> software, and is brought forth at the ODF TC in an unencumbered form.
>> Someone has to do the heavy lifting.
>>      You can also respond to the public review, although something concrete
>> that can be used in a constructive manner would be particularly welcome.
>> The ODF TC *has* to address every Public Review comment, although that
>> doesn't mean we will do anything about it.  Good catches will probably be
>> saved up for an Errata or lead to action in ODF 1.3.
>>
>
>
>> Le 2011-06-24 13:13, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
>>
>>> So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
>>> 1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
>>> faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
>>> office document exchanges.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Charles.
> Even if font embedding is included in ODF 1.3 (which is unlikely according
> to Charles' statement) that will only happen in 2 years time.
>
> I think TDF and LO are betting on the wrong horse. It's not only going to
> start the race much later but also there seems to be no guarantee that it
> will run faster or better (if Charles' statement is correct they aren't even
> on the same race because their goals are different)
>
> In any case, if LibreOffice's goal is to be a suite that stands behind the
> ODF format then it should review what it promises. If it can't embed fonts,
> it can never be a replacement for MS Office.
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Font-Embedding-in-ODF-was-RE-ANN-ODF-1-2-Candidate-OASIS-Standard-Enters-60-Day-Public-Review-tp3106577p3107356.html
> Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Actually, 2 years is not that long and the world of office suites is a
slow one. We will still be using desktop office suites in two year's
time. Just imagine, many of our LibreOffice members are still on limited
internet connection along with dial-up connection.

Cheers

Marc

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http://www.parEntreprise.com


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Andrew Pitonyak Andrew Pitonyak
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)


On 06/25/2011 01:14 PM, Marc Paré wrote:

> Hi Dennis
>
> Le 2011-06-25 12:40, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
>>
>> PS: Since August 2008, when I became a member of the ODF TC, I don't
>> recall any conclusion that font embedding is out of scope for the
>> OpenDocument Format. I don't know what such an assertion might be
>> based on.  It is definitely the case that the ODF specification does
>> not specify the rendering and presentation of documents.  But that
>> doesn't exclude font embedding.  After all, there are already
>> significant provisions for fonts in ODF, they just don't encompass
>> embedding font files.
>
> Thanks for the information. This all sounds promising to me. So
> essentially, what you are saying is if ... "hypothetically" ... a
> proposal were to be put forward for embedding fonts and a group such
> as LibreOffice showed a committed willingness to use this new option
> with ... let's say ... a LibreOffice Reader and if other groups were
> to support this new option, then it may pass?

Off hand, I would say that embedding a font is not just for readers to
use. I would say that there must then be support for LO to fully use
that in the editor for viewing, editing, printing, and generating other
file formats that support it (such as PDF with embedded fonts).


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Nuno J. Silva Nuno J. Silva
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF

In reply to this post by Dennis E. Hamilton
On 2011-06-25, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

>> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>
>>> Le 2011-06-24 13:13, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
>>>
>>>> So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
>>>> 1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
>>>> faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
>>>> office document exchanges.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 4. It is incorrect to presume that Font Embedding will not be in ODF 1.3
>>> or any other.  While font embedding did not make the feature cut in the
>>> prioritization for ODF 1.2, that does not mean it can't be resurrected.
>>> It is early days for ODF 1.3, which is scheduled to take a two-year
>>> development process.
>>>     What is *missing* is a serious proposal that deals with the
>>> complexities, borrows from some already-worked-out approach in other
>>> software, and is brought forth at the ODF TC in an unencumbered form.
>>> Someone has to do the heavy lifting.
[...]

> I think this conversation needs to be made more concrete.
>
> The inclusion of font embedding into the ODF 1.x specification is not
> the issue.
>
> The issue is, who has it be such an imperative that they are willing
> to have and document an implementation-specific solution well enough
> that others can interoperate with it.  Then, or concurrently, it can
> be rolled into the ODF specification work as the basis for an
> independently-implementable, interoperable feature of ODF.

The problem is that the research I've been doing about this subject has
been leading me to the position that LibO/OOo is not going to implement
it because it must be implemented in ODF, and because ODF won't support
that.

So, after reading your messages, there are two issues:

1. There's a misunderstanding of the position held by the ODF TC (or
   maybe it was some decision taken long ago of which you don't know?),
   and

2. this sounds like a chicken and egg problem, LibO/OOo will only
   implement embedding if it gets in ODF, and it will only get in ODF if
   there's a working implementation. I've always held the opinion the
   chicken must have come first, because "egg" is shorthand for
   "[chicken] egg". But I doubt this helps here.


> The ODF TC does not implement anything.  And it is a waste of the
> volunteer efforts of the ODF TC participants to specify features that
> no one implements or that are not practically implementable or for
> which there are already good-enough solutions that can be adapted.
> There's a hand-and-glove partnership required for a feature as
> substantial as font embedding.

Makes sense.

[...]
> It is definitely the case that the ODF specification does
> not specify the rendering and presentation of documents.  But that
> doesn't exclude font embedding.  After all, there are already
> significant provisions for fonts in ODF, they just don't encompass
> embedding font files.

I see font embedding as a way to make interoperation easier, and not to
achieve faithful representation. I think a major goal is to have ODF
being used on several platforms, and available fonts differ from
platform to platform. OTOH I guess LibO can (and probably already does?)
bundle some fonts with it, so that the default fonts are available on
every install of LibO (but this still excludes other ODF-compatible
applications).

--
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
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Andrew Pitonyak Andrew Pitonyak
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF



On 06/25/2011 02:09 PM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:

> On 2011-06-25, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote
> The problem is that the research I've been doing about this subject has
> been leading me to the position that LibO/OOo is not going to implement
> it because it must be implemented in ODF, and because ODF won't support
> that.
>
> So, after reading your messages, there are two issues:
>
> 1. There's a misunderstanding of the position held by the ODF TC (or
>     maybe it was some decision taken long ago of which you don't know?),
>     and
>
> 2. this sounds like a chicken and egg problem, LibO/OOo will only
>     implement embedding if it gets in ODF, and it will only get in ODF if
>     there's a working implementation. I've always held the opinion the
>     chicken must have come first, because "egg" is shorthand for
>     "[chicken] egg". But I doubt this helps here.

In other words, they desire a reference implementation. I understand how
that works (been there, done that for an Interval mathematics proposal
for Fortran).
I see font embedding as a way to make interoperation easier, and not to

> achieve faithful representation. I think a major goal is to have ODF
> being used on several platforms, and available fonts differ from
> platform to platform. OTOH I guess LibO can (and probably already does?)
> bundle some fonts with it, so that the default fonts are available on
> every install of LibO (but this still excludes other ODF-compatible
> applications).
I always wondered how embedding fonts worked from a copyright
perspective. I use my favorite special font that I purchased for my own
use, then I create a document that uses (and embeds) that font in the
document.

--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Goran Rakic Goran Rakic
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF

У суб, 25. 06 2011. у 15:24 -0400, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak пише:
> I always wondered how embedding fonts worked from a copyright
> perspective. I use my favorite special font that I purchased for my
> own use, then I create a document that uses (and embeds) that font in
> the document.
>

It depends on a font license.

OpenType specification has metadata to limit font usage, for example to
set it as "preview and print" but not "installable". These metadata may
be insufficient when the font license regulates usage in more details.

IANAL, "fair use" principle can give you some rights in some countries.


What I would like to see in LibreOffice is a warning bar listing fonts
used in a document but not available on a system. I am not deeply into
this, but my guess is it would be hard to implement as font substitution
happens down the system, bellow LibeOffice.

Kind regards,
Goran Rakic


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Nuno J. Silva Nuno J. Silva
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF

In reply to this post by Andrew Pitonyak
On 2011-06-25, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:

> On 06/25/2011 02:09 PM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:
>
>> I see font embedding as a way to make interoperation easier, and not to
>> achieve faithful representation. I think a major goal is to have ODF
>> being used on several platforms, and available fonts differ from
>> platform to platform. OTOH I guess LibO can (and probably already does?)
>> bundle some fonts with it, so that the default fonts are available on
>> every install of LibO (but this still excludes other ODF-compatible
>> applications).
>
> I always wondered how embedding fonts worked from a copyright
> perspective. I use my favorite special font that I purchased for my
> own use, then I create a document that uses (and embeds) that font in
> the document.

At least the TrueType format has an "embeddable flag", which should say
whether the font can be shared, embed in a document, etc.:

,----[http://enwp.org/TrueType#Embedding_protection]
| Embedding protection
|
| The TrueType format allows for the most basic type of digital rights
| management – an embeddable flag that specifies if author allows
| embedding of the font file into things like PDF files and
| websites.[...]
`----

An ideal approach would be raising a warning when embedding a
"protected" font in a forbidden way.

But of course this wouldn't suit the hungry US legislation -- there LibO
would probably need to completely forbid embedding "protected" fonts
(even if there is no way to know if the document with embed fonts is
going to be shared).

See http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?webpageid=2402 for an example
of DMCA in action.

I think that, in case LibO embeds fonts, this _just_ means LibO must
respect that bit. But I might be wrong.

--
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

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Robert Derman Robert Derman
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF

Nuno J. Silva wrote:

> On 2011-06-25, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>
>  
>> On 06/25/2011 02:09 PM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> I see font embedding as a way to make interoperation easier, and not to
>>> achieve faithful representation. I think a major goal is to have ODF
>>> being used on several platforms, and available fonts differ from
>>> platform to platform. OTOH I guess LibO can (and probably already does?)
>>> bundle some fonts with it, so that the default fonts are available on
>>> every install of LibO (but this still excludes other ODF-compatible
>>> applications).
>>>      
>> I always wondered how embedding fonts worked from a copyright
>> perspective. I use my favorite special font that I purchased for my
>> own use, then I create a document that uses (and embeds) that font in
>> the document.
>>    
>
> At least the TrueType format has an "embeddable flag", which should say
> whether the font can be shared, embed in a document, etc.:
>
> ,----[http://enwp.org/TrueType#Embedding_protection]
> | Embedding protection
> |
> | The TrueType format allows for the most basic type of digital rights
> | management – an embeddable flag that specifies if author allows
> | embedding of the font file into things like PDF files and
> | websites.[...]
> `----
>
> An ideal approach would be raising a warning when embedding a
> "protected" font in a forbidden way.
>
> But of course this wouldn't suit the hungry US legislation -- there LibO
> would probably need to completely forbid embedding "protected" fonts
> (even if there is no way to know if the document with embed fonts is
> going to be shared).
>  
I think it would be best if restricted fonts were simply "Grayed out" in
the font listing and LO simply refused to use them in any way.
> See http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?webpageid=2402 for an example
> of DMCA in action.
>
> I think that, in case LibO embeds fonts, this _just_ means LibO must
> respect that bit. But I might be wrong.
>
>  


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Goran Rakic Goran Rakic
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF

У суб, 25. 06 2011. у 15:23 -0500, Robert Derman пише:
>
> I think it would be best if restricted fonts were simply "Grayed out"
> in the font listing and LO simply refused to use them in any way.


Let us try not to repeat everything said before here:
http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20370

There are many valid concerns there.

But do not forget that LibreOffice is free software*, you can always
hack your own patches, try to raise a bounty and engage new developers
or something else...

About the ODF format, there should be a process at OASIS and ODF TC how
to participate.

But it would probably be more effective if there is a working code for
the proposed features, not just a tagline "let us do it". Trying not to
speak in anybody's name, if this becomes implemented in LibreOffice and
community wants it, TDF can probably advocate it officially inside the
ODF TC.

*) free as in freedom

Goran Rakic


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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

In reply to this post by Andrew Pitonyak
+1 although it is about fidelity too, especially in things like presentations.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Douglas Pitonyak [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 10:27
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)


[ ... ]

Off hand, I would say that embedding a font is not just for readers to
use. I would say that there must then be support for LO to fully use
that in the editor for viewing, editing, printing, and generating other
file formats that support it (such as PDF with embedded fonts).


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF

In reply to this post by Goran Rakic
A working implementation would be great, although a working specification would be better, since the ODF can consider that while others test it for implementation.  And if you want to build it into a LibreOffice as an extended use of the format, all the better, but you need to be prepared for the ODF specification to vary, cover cases that were maybe not considered, etc., and maybe even be simplified.  So you don't generally want to get too far on the bleeding edge.

But a feasibility demonstration would be great and would carry a lot of weight if specified in an implementation-independent manner.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Goran Rakic [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 13:56
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Font Embedding in ODF

У суб, 25. 06 2011. у 15:23 -0500, Robert Derman пише:
>
> I think it would be best if restricted fonts were simply "Grayed out"
> in the font listing and LO simply refused to use them in any way.


Let us try not to repeat everything said before here:
http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20370

There are many valid concerns there.

But do not forget that LibreOffice is free software*, you can always
hack your own patches, try to raise a bounty and engage new developers
or something else...

About the ODF format, there should be a process at OASIS and ODF TC how
to participate.

But it would probably be more effective if there is a working code for
the proposed features, not just a tagline "let us do it". Trying not to
speak in anybody's name, if this becomes implemented in LibreOffice and
community wants it, TDF can probably advocate it officially inside the
ODF TC.

*) free as in freedom

Goran Rakic


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

In reply to this post by aqualung
Le 2011-06-25 11:36, aqualung a écrit :

> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>
>>   3. There are other ways to make fonts available in the meantime, although
>> not so straightforward as embedded fonts, they also don't make the
>> document bigger.
>>
>>
> A similar discussion took place in March and I
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/RE-tdf-discuss-Re-Feature-request-embed-font-td2706681.html#a2715893
> suggested then   a combination of education/documentation and cooperation
> with websites offering fonts with generous licenses. Nobody took up my offer
> then to start on a first draft of expanding the Help (web-based and locally
> installed) in that direction. Maybe I should offer again in the
> "Documentation" section of Nabble?
Why don't you just start a wiki page with it and if it may be easier for
everyone to see your points this way. Otherwise, you will take up the
same conversation at another future date and it will never amount to
anything.

Cheers

Marc

--
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