[Forum]How will the forum be organized?

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Narayan Aras Narayan Aras
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RE: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?


Hi Michael,

In general, I full hare your views.

> Your average end user will likely never search through mailing list threads, even if they
> contain exactly the information they are looking for.

Exactly!

> A well presented forum running from a dedicated forum system such as vBulletin or phpBB
> provides the end user with interface familiarity and branding which
> builds trust in the brand and community.

A BB is much more user-friendly than a mail-list.

The following features do not exist in a mail list at all:
1. Conduct precise searches (with search parameters).
2. Split the domain into hierarchical forums, which prevents a mixup of issues.
   This in turn avoids repeat discussion of the same topic endlessly.
3. It establishes credentials of any user so that a casual visitor instantly knows how much to trust him.
    (is he a SC member or any other office-holder? How many posts are to his credit?)
4. We can check out a particular user by looking at his posts (genuine helper or trouble-maker?)

On the other hand, please check if the selected tool has the facility to read/respond the posts while offline, and then do a rapid sync operation when the internet is available.

> As I understand it, Silverstripe is a long way behind all the major
> CMS systems in terms of 3rd party integration, but looking through the
> forums I have seen that there are a few people who have hacked
> Silverstripe in order to allow some basic functionality:
> http://www.silverstripe.org/archive/show/2593
>
> If we did provide a user forum, which I believe we should, using a
> dedicated forum system will provide far more functionality and
> usability, as well as regular security updates than we could ever hope
> to code and maintain ourselves without drawing on resources that could
> be used for development of LibreOffice.

And THAT in turn means we should be using a readymade plugin for Drupal, which will ensure availability of regular updates and well-tested security, as compared to home-grown hacks. Even if the solution is solid today, the same resources may not be available in future; or may lose interest in maintaining this project.
 
> What do others think? Is the forum support option important for trust
> building and familiarity? What system would we use?

Since vBulletin is commercial, we should opt for phpBB as Drupal plugin.

While I think the forum should be established, I am against setting it up for SilverStripe as well. The reason is simple: It will not be possible to migrate the threads from SilverStripe to Drupal. We should not waste efforts on two fronts.

I believe Drupal website should start functioning NOW on production-grade servers in some functional areas which do not need to be closely integrated with other functional areas. For example, BB does not need to be linked to any other area, where as all production-related areas are interrelated). Specifically, we need to think whether any hyperlinks will break later due to migration.

-Narayan
     
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Stefan Weigel Stefan Weigel
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Hi David,

Am 10.01.2011 11:29, schrieb David Nelson:

> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 18:21, Stefan Weigel
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> However, there is lots of discussion about creating yet another
>> forum. And I fear lots of energy is being put into this. Kind of
>> makes me desperate.
>
> But given that Nabble is simply an interface onto our own mailing
> lists, can I assume you don't have anything against a Nabble
> integration into the libreoffice.org website, under "Get Help"?

Yes, I tend to agree.

However, I haven´t had a closer look at Nabble. And I am asking
myself if it could be a source of confusion for unexperienced users,
who don´t even know, what a mailing list is, if Nabble looks and
behaves almost like a forum, but actually is an interface to mailing
lists. I don´t know, if this could turn out as an issue.

Stefan


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Hi Stefan, :-)

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 18:42, Stefan Weigel
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> However, I haven´t had a closer look at Nabble. And I am asking
> myself if it could be a source of confusion for unexperienced users,
> who don´t even know, what a mailing list is, if Nabble looks and
> behaves almost like a forum, but actually is an interface to mailing
> lists. I don´t know, if this could turn out as an issue.

Well, the solution can be to just configure it as read-only interface,
for the moment... Plus there can be an explanation on the site about
what Nabble actually is and what it provides.

David Nelson

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Stefan Weigel Stefan Weigel
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi Micheal,

Am 10.01.2011 10:36, schrieb Michael Wheatland:

> What do others think? Is the forum support option important for trust
> building and familiarity? What system would we use?

IMHO: Do not spend a minute on creating yet another forum, but point
to the already existing well-proven forums. We do not want to split
up knowledge and experience to several forums.

Stefan

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Stefan Weigel Stefan Weigel
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Hi David,

Am 10.01.2011 11:53, schrieb David Nelson:

> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 18:42, Stefan Weigel
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> However, I haven´t had a closer look at Nabble. And I am asking
>> myself if it could be a source of confusion for unexperienced users,
>> who don´t even know, what a mailing list is, if Nabble looks and
>> behaves almost like a forum, but actually is an interface to mailing
>> lists. I don´t know, if this could turn out as an issue.
>
> Well, the solution can be to just configure it as read-only interface,
> for the moment... Plus there can be an explanation on the site about
> what Nabble actually is and what it provides.

Sounds good to me. ;-)

Actually that´s nothing very different to the links to ML-archives
we usually provide, but possibly a more user friendly interface.

Stefan

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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Stefan Weigel
On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 12:20 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:
> We do not want to split
> up knowledge and experience to several forums.


Hi Stefan,

That is IMO a straw man. The same argument was used when the split from
oooForum to user services happened and it proved to be wrong then also -
at the end of a year there was no loss, no split, rather there was two
active forums, both healthy.


Thanks

drew


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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Stefan Weigel
On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 11:21 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:
> That´s why I even advocate closing down http://libreofficeforum.org/

I could not disagree more strongly. He had every right to open that
site, I don't like it, to say you can arbitrarily shut it down because
it does not fit with your likings is the type of action that I am here
to work against.

Thanks




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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Stefan Weigel
On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 12:31 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> Am 10.01.2011 11:53, schrieb David Nelson:
>
> > On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 18:42, Stefan Weigel
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> However, I haven´t had a closer look at Nabble. And I am asking
> >> myself if it could be a source of confusion for unexperienced users,
> >> who don´t even know, what a mailing list is, if Nabble looks and
> >> behaves almost like a forum, but actually is an interface to mailing
> >> lists. I don´t know, if this could turn out as an issue.
> >
> > Well, the solution can be to just configure it as read-only interface,
> > for the moment... Plus there can be an explanation on the site about
> > what Nabble actually is and what it provides.
>
> Sounds good to me. ;-)

Hi Stefan,

It doesn't sound good to me.

Thanks

Drew


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Stefan Weigel Stefan Weigel
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by drewjensen
Hi Drew,

Am 10.01.2011 15:09, schrieb drew:
> On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 11:21 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:
>> That´s why I even advocate closing down http://libreofficeforum.org/
>
> I could not disagree more strongly. He had every right to open that
> site, I don't like it, to say you can arbitrarily shut it down because
> it does not fit with your likings is the type of action that I am here
> to work against.

Please don´t get me wrong! (which could happen, if you quote my
statement without its rationale!)

Of course anybody has the right to establish a forum for whatever
she/he likes.

But it is my personal conviction, that opening
http://libreofficeforum.org/ as yet another forum, although there
were already well-established forums, is no benefit for the project
or community. There were discussions about this in October last
year, as well as there have been discussions about this today.
There´s quite a lot of community members, who basically say the
same: There is no need for more and more forums in parallel.

What would you say, if people came up with multiple LibreOffice
websites in parallel? What would you say, if people came up with
multiple LibreOffice mailing lists in parallel? You have every right
to open a website or mailing list about LibreOffice besides the
existing one. But does it make sense? Is it good for the project and
the community, after all?

The same is for forums.

Stefan.


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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 16:33 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:

> Hi Drew,
>
> Am 10.01.2011 15:09, schrieb drew:
> > On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 11:21 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:
> >> That´s why I even advocate closing down http://libreofficeforum.org/
> >
> > I could not disagree more strongly. He had every right to open that
> > site, I don't like it, to say you can arbitrarily shut it down because
> > it does not fit with your likings is the type of action that I am here
> > to work against.
>
> Please don´t get me wrong! (which could happen, if you quote my
> statement without its rationale!)
>
> Of course anybody has the right to establish a forum for whatever
> she/he likes.

I am glad you agree with me that the owner of libreofficeforum.org had
the right to open such a site.

>
> But it is my personal conviction, that opening
> http://libreofficeforum.org/ as yet another forum, although there
> were already well-established forums, is no benefit for the project
> or community. There were discussions about this in October last
> year, as well as there have been discussions about this today.
> There´s quite a lot of community members, who basically say the
> same: There is no need for more and more forums in parallel.
>
> What would you say, if people came up with multiple LibreOffice
> websites in parallel? What would you say, if people came up with
> multiple LibreOffice mailing lists in parallel? You have every right
> to open a website or mailing list about LibreOffice besides the
> existing one. But does it make sense? Is it good for the project and
> the community, after all?
>
> The same is for forums.

No you are mixing apples and oranges when comparing the two types of
sites, IMO.

But even if that where not true, there is this: LibreOffice not
OpenOffice.

The application is not the same, and the organization is not the same.

What part of that do you disagree with, please.

Thanks

Drew





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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

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Hi Drew, :-)

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 22:11, drew <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It doesn't sound good to me.

So can you clarify what your position is with regard to Nabble? I see
it as being something somewhat apart from forums, especially as we can
configure it as read-only and have an explanatory text saying that it
is purely an interface to read the mailing lists with more
convenience. I like it a lot and find it a valuable tool. You did well
to find this for us and set it up.

So what is your take on this?

David Nelson

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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by drewjensen
Hi Drew,

Am 10.01.2011 16:50, schrieb drew:

> But even if that where not true, there is this: LibreOffice not
> OpenOffice.
>
> The application is not the same, and the organization is not the same.
>
> What part of that do you disagree with, please.

The forums and other support sites (and the people running them)
that were running under the label of "OpenOffice.org" until
LibreOffice was born, were supporting all derivates of
OpenOffice.org and they still do. And since LibreOffice came up,
they do support LibreOffice as well. So, in this sence, there is no
difference between LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org.

If some user needs to know how to use DataPilot or how to use
Templates or how to import data via Base, there is no difference or
no noteworthy difference between LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org.

That´s why I beleive it does not make sense to have well-established
forums that cover all derivates of OpenOffice.org including
LibreOffice and yet additional forums dedicated to LibreOffice.

Stefan

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Fabián Rodríguez-3 Fabián Rodríguez-3
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Stefan Weigel
On 11-01-10 10:33 AM, Stefan Weigel wrote:
> [...]
> What would you say, if people came up with multiple LibreOffice
> websites in parallel? What would you say, if people came up with
> multiple LibreOffice mailing lists in parallel? You have every right
> to open a website or mailing list about LibreOffice besides the
> existing one. But does it make sense? Is it good for the project and
> the community, after all?
>
> The same is for forums.
I would say there is branding confusion and I would ask "why common
forums when the project, organization and product are different ? ". It
makes a lot of sense to see such resources, more than the older forums
and the current mailing lists. I can't ask any "normal" user to come
anywhere close to mailing lists or Nabble, nevermind thousands of older
forum posts with seemingly unrelated information about the office suite
I am advocating to move away from. But that's only me and my limited
audience. Different audiences, but common name & brand only make sense.

I would also say it's *great* that other people are interested in
putting time into this and help them, perhaps make them official ASAP
and focus on other stuff :) This requires minimal due dilligence. Of
course I am pushing for another help channel (
http://libreoffice.shapado.com ), so I can't be very objective. Once
again, diverse audiences, more exposure.

Can't wait 'til the Facebook groups start popping up in every country
and language :)

Cheers,

Fabian

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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Stefan Weigel
On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 17:12 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:

> Hi Drew,
>
> Am 10.01.2011 16:50, schrieb drew:
>
> > But even if that where not true, there is this: LibreOffice not
> > OpenOffice.
> >
> > The application is not the same, and the organization is not the same.
> >
> > What part of that do you disagree with, please.
>
> The forums and other support sites (and the people running them)
> that were running under the label of "OpenOffice.org" until
> LibreOffice was born, were supporting all derivates of
> OpenOffice.org and they still do. And since LibreOffice came up,
> they do support LibreOffice as well. So, in this sence, there is no
> difference between LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org.
>
> If some user needs to know how to use DataPilot or how to use
> Templates or how to import data via Base, there is no difference or
> no noteworthy difference between LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org.
>
> That´s why I beleive it does not make sense to have well-established
> forums that cover all derivates of OpenOffice.org including
> LibreOffice and yet additional forums dedicated to LibreOffice.
>
> Stefan

Ok, that is good.

Well, in the particular of the moment you are correct that most of the
application is the same.

- but I do not want to be tied to OpenOffice.org in any way

- the ability to support OpenOffice.org users at our support site will
be possible also

- the time to begin building our knowledgebase is now, while it is still
possible to easily enhance it through the availability of the older
forums.

- the existence of multiple support options IMO is a positive for end
users, not a negative and causes no burden to our project.

Slightly off topic but it is part of this issue: As to the question of a
single monolithic view of the project, all things LibreOffice will be at
one domain, this is a basic assumption that I an not willing to adhere
to.

There is great value in a networked view, I am not advocating a lack of
concern for the trademark, that will be from time to time necessary and
is part of our responsibilities, but I am most vigorously arguing
against a view that all things should flow into a single point, rather
that we build an organization that flows outwards, we support the
efforts and initiatives of others that make use of this Free Open Source
application we build.

Thanks

Drew


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sophi sophi
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Hi Drew,
On 10/01/2011 19:41, drew wrote:
[...]

>
> Slightly off topic but it is part of this issue: As to the question of a
> single monolithic view of the project, all things LibreOffice will be at
> one domain, this is a basic assumption that I an not willing to adhere
> to.
>
> There is great value in a networked view, I am not advocating a lack of
> concern for the trademark, that will be from time to time necessary and
> is part of our responsibilities, but I am most vigorously arguing
> against a view that all things should flow into a single point, rather
> that we build an organization that flows outwards, we support the
> efforts and initiatives of others that make use of this Free Open Source
> application we build.
I think there is a different view also coming from the native language
groups because I think of the lack of 'marketing the community' we have
met in the past.
The forum is a great support and resource for users, but we also have to
think on how to get new members contributing to the project.
 From our experience in the FR community,  but I think it's also true
for other languages, the forum didn't help us here. I'm not accusing
anybody, be sure it's absolutely not my idea, I just point that we need
to think about it and find solutions. We should be able to have more
contributors also coming from the forum.
I don't know how, because I can't participate to forum, but I think it
participates to the idea of splitting the resources Stefan was talking
about.  And it is may be more visible in language communities because we
need resources for QA/Doc/L10n, etc, where it is done by the overall
community en English language.
Again, this is not to open flames against the forum, it is just to state
an issue we have met for some times now and open a reflexion on the way
to solve it in our project.

Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Stefan Weigel
Hi,
Stefan Weigel schrieb:

> Hi,
>
> Am 10.01.2011 00:51, schrieb Sigrid Carrera:
>
>  
>> Reason for not using those forums was that there are already a few
>> (good!) fora out there and we don't want to fight against them. In
>> contrast, I think, it was planned to link to those forums from our
>> website.
>>    
> That´s why I even advocate closing down http://libreofficeforum.org/
>
> However, there is lots of discussion about creating yet another
> forum. And I fear lots of energy is being put into this. Kind of
> makes me desperate.
>
> Stefan
Just a question:

Are they LibO-fora? OOo-fora? or mixed fora?

is there any other forum only for LibO ?

my 2 cent
Karl-Heinz

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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by drewjensen
On 11/01/2011 2:12 AM, "drew" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 17:12 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:
> > Hi Drew,
> >
> > Am 10.01.2011 16:50, schrieb drew:
> >
> > > But even if that where not true, there is this: LibreOffice not
> > > OpenOffice.
> > >
> > > The application is not the same, and the organization is not the same.
> > >
> > > What part of that do you disagree with, please.
> >
> > The forums and other support sites (and the people running them)
> > that were running under the label of "OpenOffice.org" until
> > LibreOffice was born, were supporting all derivates of
> > OpenOffice.org and they still do. And since LibreOffice came up,
> > they do support LibreOffice as well. So, in this sence, there is no
> > difference between LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org.
> >
> > If some user needs to know how to use DataPilot or how to use
> > Templates or how to import data via Base, there is no difference or
> > no noteworthy difference between LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org.
> >
> > That´s why I beleive it does not make sense to have well-established
> > forums that cover all derivates of OpenOffice.org including
> > LibreOffice and yet additional forums dedicated to LibreOffice.
> >
> > Stefan
>
> Ok, that is good.
>
> Well, in the particular of the moment you are correct that most of the
> application is the same.
>
> - but I do not want to be tied to OpenOffice.org in any way
>
> - the ability to support OpenOffice.org users at our support site will
> be possible also
>
> - the time to begin building our knowledgebase is now, while it is still
> possible to easily enhance it through the availability of the older
> forums.
>
> - the existence of multiple support options IMO is a positive for end
> users, not a negative and causes no burden to our project.
>
> Slightly off topic but it is part of this issue: As to the question of a
> single monolithic view of the project, all things LibreOffice will be at
> one domain, this is a basic assumption that I an not willing to adhere
> to.
>
> There is great value in a networked view, I am not advocating a lack of
> concern for the trademark, that will be from time to time necessary and
> is part of our responsibilities, but I am most vigorously arguing
> against a view that all things should flow into a single point, rather
> that we build an organization that flows outwards, we support the
> efforts and initiatives of others that make use of this Free Open Source
> application we build.
>
> Thanks
>
> Drew

I totally agree with your views Drew.

Some sites are changing to suit our new product, for example OOoAuthors is
changing branding and domain to avoid OOo branding and the mix up this
causes with our community. I think we should support them officially if they
wish to accommodate our community. However you are spot on, LibreOffice is a
new community with a new product. We need to build brand recognition by not
confusing end users by pointing them to OOo branded infrastructure.

I also share the passion for freedom that you advocate with external sites.
Although I think there is justification for community oversight on an
officially sanctioned forum.

Nabble is not a forum, does not provide the functionality of a forum, and is
likely to confuse end users who just want to ask a simple question on a
forum.

Also, I think it was suggested that I would set up something, this is not
the case, I have my hands full at the moment, someone else would have to
pick this up, but I would support the creation of a dedicated forum system
fully.

Michael Wheatland

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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by sophi
On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 19:56 +0300, sophie wrote:

> Hi Drew,
> On 10/01/2011 19:41, drew wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > Slightly off topic but it is part of this issue: As to the question of a
> > single monolithic view of the project, all things LibreOffice will be at
> > one domain, this is a basic assumption that I an not willing to adhere
> > to.
> >
> > There is great value in a networked view, I am not advocating a lack of
> > concern for the trademark, that will be from time to time necessary and
> > is part of our responsibilities, but I am most vigorously arguing
> > against a view that all things should flow into a single point, rather
> > that we build an organization that flows outwards, we support the
> > efforts and initiatives of others that make use of this Free Open Source
> > application we build.
> I think there is a different view also coming from the native language
> groups because I think of the lack of 'marketing the community' we have
> met in the past.
> The forum is a great support and resource for users, but we also have to
> think on how to get new members contributing to the project.
>  From our experience in the FR community,  but I think it's also true
> for other languages, the forum didn't help us here.

Hi Sophie,

Just looking at one issues here (in this email):

1) There is the very real need to keep a steady influx of new blood into
the project - this in the end is our capital. Here the only real way I
see to address that from the perspective of a web forum is to host an
official forum, in this setting there are mechanisms which can be built
to aid in nurturing new contributors, but also in leveraging the
knowledgebase that will form, for delivery to other users looking for
support.

2) In an environment of multiple sites being run by multiple groups or
individuals it is still possible to leverage both the knowledge and the
resources using current web technologies.

I agree that there was not enough effort in the past on this within the
OO.o web forums, mostly though I feel that was a due to the fact that in
the beginning and for whatever reason the main project would not support
an official site and so ONLY third party sites sprang up, any way that
is how I perceived it. If that is the pattern again then again I don't
see how we will be able to address this particular need - or at best it
will be much more difficult.

Thanks

Drew




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Andy Brown Andy Brown
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Gukk_Devel
On Mon Jan 10 2011 09:15:53 GMT-0800 (PST)  Karl-Heinz Gödderz wrote:

> Hi,
> Stefan Weigel schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Am 10.01.2011 00:51, schrieb Sigrid Carrera:
>>
>>  
>>> Reason for not using those forums was that there are already a few
>>> (good!) fora out there and we don't want to fight against them. In
>>> contrast, I think, it was planned to link to those forums from our
>>> website.
>>>    
>> That´s why I even advocate closing down http://libreofficeforum.org/
>>
>> However, there is lots of discussion about creating yet another
>> forum. And I fear lots of energy is being put into this. Kind of
>> makes me desperate.
>>
>> Stefan
> Just a question:
>
> Are they LibO-fora? OOo-fora? or mixed fora?
>
> is there any other forum only for LibO ?
>
> my 2 cent
> Karl-Heinz
>

The one listed above is for LibO, though I am sure that if someone ask
an OOo related question it would not be turned down or told off.



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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by davidnelson
On Tue, 2011-01-11 at 00:02 +0800, David Nelson wrote:
> Hi Drew, :-)
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 22:11, drew <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > It doesn't sound good to me.
>
> So can you clarify what your position is with regard to Nabble?

Hi David,

Sure - I would use nabble the way it is currently configured..but then I
may be bias on that.

There are already a number of people signing up there and beginning to
use it to post to the mailing lists, more then I expected actually.

To make nabble read only would be to circumvent the real advantage of
making if available, the ability to post to a LibreOffice/TDF mailing
without being moderated, in other words subscribed, but without having
to deal with every response going to your mail box.

Sure same deal with a few other options, but that is then thing about
choice, different solutions appeal to different people.

Thanks

Drew


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