[Forum]How will the forum be organized?

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Le 2011-01-10 11:56, sophie a écrit :

> Hi Drew,
> On 10/01/2011 19:41, drew wrote:
> [...]
>>
>> Slightly off topic but it is part of this issue: As to the question of a
>> single monolithic view of the project, all things LibreOffice will be at
>> one domain, this is a basic assumption that I an not willing to adhere
>> to.
>>
>> There is great value in a networked view, I am not advocating a lack of
>> concern for the trademark, that will be from time to time necessary and
>> is part of our responsibilities, but I am most vigorously arguing
>> against a view that all things should flow into a single point, rather
>> that we build an organization that flows outwards, we support the
>> efforts and initiatives of others that make use of this Free Open Source
>> application we build.
> I think there is a different view also coming from the native language
> groups because I think of the lack of 'marketing the community' we have
> met in the past.
> The forum is a great support and resource for users, but we also have to
> think on how to get new members contributing to the project.
>  From our experience in the FR community, but I think it's also true for
> other languages, the forum didn't help us here. I'm not accusing
> anybody, be sure it's absolutely not my idea, I just point that we need
> to think about it and find solutions. We should be able to have more
> contributors also coming from the forum.
> I don't know how, because I can't participate to forum, but I think it
> participates to the idea of splitting the resources Stefan was talking
> about. And it is may be more visible in language communities because we
> need resources for QA/Doc/L10n, etc, where it is done by the overall
> community en English language.
> Again, this is not to open flames against the forum, it is just to state
> an issue we have met for some times now and open a reflexion on the way
> to solve it in our project.
>
> Kind regards
> Sophie
>
>

Before you read the next lines, I have to say that I will most likely
not be using the right terminology and hope you understand my point(s).

Well, then, would both Drew and Sophie be against having the forums
passing through the main LibreOffice.org site and the "Forums" page with
the forums being themed in such a way that they appear to belong as a
"LibreOffice" site. This way, the forums would still have their
independence, the different admins will still be the same. The only
difference is that the forums could cooperate and theme to blend into
the site.

This would make it easier to community build as most users would
eventually believe that their forum has equal weight on the site. It
would give everyone a sense of belonging.

We could then setup a LibreOffice.org official forum for official
announcements and whatever would not be covered under the international
language forum.

Do you think this would be acceptable?

A metaphor to this is LibreOffice forums would be the same as the EU
states (nl forums) dressed up in the EU flag (LibreOffice site); the
same metaphor as the US States (nl forums) dressed up in the US flag
(LibreOffice site); the African States ... etc.

The point I would like to make is that if people get a sense of
belonging, then it is easier to improve and build community. It is also
easier to speak as one voice when you feel like you belong.


Marc


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Hi Marc, Drew, Sophie, :-)

Where you addressing me, Marc? I'm assuming so. ;-)

My take would be this:

I don't personally *want* the Nabble/forums to be independent of the
libreoffice.org site or the LibreOffice project. I specifically see
forums or a Nabble interface as being an important support channel for
the project, and an important asset for enlarging and earning the
loyalty of LibO's user base. Therefore, I specifically want those
forums to be an *integral part* of the TDF infrastructure, and themed
to look like part of the TDF infrastructure.

FYI, Drew, I really agree with your POV that the Nabble should be
"read/write". I prefer forums myself, but given that a number of
people prefer mailing lists, Nabble is the perfect compromise.

If people want to set up independent forums, then I guess that's OK. I
probably would not use them myself. As a LibO user, I would prefer to
get my support directly from the project.

The day my faith in the LibreOffice project decreases, I won't be
looking for an "independent" support channel, I will simply find
another productivity suite / solution to use. Personally, I don't even
understand why you guys feel it's important to have the forums as a
separate resource - I feel quite the opposite. ;-)

Just my own personal 2 cents. ;-)

David Nelson

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sophi sophi
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi Marc,
On 10/01/2011 20:31, Marc Paré wrote:
[...]
>
>
> Before you read the next lines, I have to say that I will most likely
> not be using the right terminology and hope you understand my point(s).
>
> Well, then, would both Drew and Sophie be against having the forums
> passing through the main LibreOffice.org site and the "Forums" page
> with the forums being themed in such a way that they appear to belong
> as a "LibreOffice" site.
Where in my mail did you read that? I have absolutely nothing against
forum passing through LibreOffice.  Really, I don't care, I won't be
able to join them anyway!

> This way, the forums would still have their independence, the
> different admins will still be the same. The only difference is that
> the forums could cooperate and theme to blend into the site.
I think that you're speaking about the existing forums and the FR one.
To be clear, and as already said, they are doing what they want :-)
They don't want to join LibO but they will support it and they are
already on the FR list and using LibO for that. As this is a very very
important resource for the Francophone users (I don't remember exactly,
but they are near a hundred to manage it) , it will be listed on the FR
site.
I didn't decide it, I'm not a member of the forum, I'm for nothing in
all this here, I was only informing about the FR community decision.

>
> This would make it easier to community build as most users would
> eventually believe that their forum has equal weight on the site. It
> would give everyone a sense of belonging.
>
> We could then setup a LibreOffice.org official forum for official
> announcements and whatever would not be covered under the
> international language forum.
>
> Do you think this would be acceptable?
Marc, I've nothing to say concerning community building.

The two mails about forums I've sent was:
- [information] the existing FR forum will be listed on the FR site.
- [reflexion proposal for those who will take care] make the forums also
a resource for the project.
And that will be the end of my participation to this discussion, I've
nothing more to bring to it.

Kind regards
Sophie


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Le 2011-01-10 13:04, sophie a écrit :

> Hi Marc,
> On 10/01/2011 20:31, Marc Paré wrote:
> [...]
>>
>>
>> Before you read the next lines, I have to say that I will most likely
>> not be using the right terminology and hope you understand my point(s).
>>
>> Well, then, would both Drew and Sophie be against having the forums
>> passing through the main LibreOffice.org site and the "Forums" page
>> with the forums being themed in such a way that they appear to belong
>> as a "LibreOffice" site.
> Where in my mail did you read that? I have absolutely nothing against
> forum passing through LibreOffice. Really, I don't care, I won't be able
> to join them anyway!

Sorry, I thought you were participating in the discussion and its
possibilities from the point of view of community building. I was not
assuming that you were using the forums. Peut-être m'est suis-je mal
expliqué -- mes excuses.

>
>> This way, the forums would still have their independence, the
>> different admins will still be the same. The only difference is that
>> the forums could cooperate and theme to blend into the site.
> I think that you're speaking about the existing forums and the FR one.
> To be clear, and as already said, they are doing what they want :-)
> They don't want to join LibO but they will support it and they are
> already on the FR list and using LibO for that. As this is a very very
> important resource for the Francophone users (I don't remember exactly,
> but they are near a hundred to manage it) , it will be listed on the FR
> site.
> I didn't decide it, I'm not a member of the forum, I'm for nothing in
> all this here, I was only informing about the FR community decision.
>>
>> This would make it easier to community build as most users would
>> eventually believe that their forum has equal weight on the site. It
>> would give everyone a sense of belonging.
>>
>> We could then setup a LibreOffice.org official forum for official
>> announcements and whatever would not be covered under the
>> international language forum.
>>
>> Do you think this would be acceptable?
> Marc, I've nothing to say concerning community building.
>
> The two mails about forums I've sent was:
> - [information] the existing FR forum will be listed on the FR site.
> - [reflexion proposal for those who will take care] make the forums also
> a resource for the project.
> And that will be the end of my participation to this discussion, I've
> nothing more to bring to it.
>
> Kind regards
> Sophie
>
>

Thanks for your comments.

Marc


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Le 2011-01-10 13:02, David Nelson a écrit :

> Hi Marc, Drew, Sophie, :-)
>
> Where you addressing me, Marc? I'm assuming so. ;-)
>
> My take would be this:
>
> I don't personally *want* the Nabble/forums to be independent of the
> libreoffice.org site or the LibreOffice project. I specifically see
> forums or a Nabble interface as being an important support channel for
> the project, and an important asset for enlarging and earning the
> loyalty of LibO's user base. Therefore, I specifically want those
> forums to be an *integral part* of the TDF infrastructure, and themed
> to look like part of the TDF infrastructure.
>
> FYI, Drew, I really agree with your POV that the Nabble should be
> "read/write". I prefer forums myself, but given that a number of
> people prefer mailing lists, Nabble is the perfect compromise.
>
> If people want to set up independent forums, then I guess that's OK. I
> probably would not use them myself. As a LibO user, I would prefer to
> get my support directly from the project.
>
> The day my faith in the LibreOffice project decreases, I won't be
> looking for an "independent" support channel, I will simply find
> another productivity suite / solution to use. Personally, I don't even
> understand why you guys feel it's important to have the forums as a
> separate resource - I feel quite the opposite. ;-)
>
> Just my own personal 2 cents. ;-)
>
> David Nelson
>

Hi David:

I was really responding to Drew and Sophie but sure we should all have a
say.

I totally agree with you that Nabble should be kept read/write for those
who wish to participate on the mailist but prefer the "forum-type" front
of Nabble. We should try to accommodate as many different ways for
membership participation as long as there are bridges between all modes
of communication.

Myself, I like the idea of a centralized forum (or something that looks
like it). Again, I prefer this as it really sets the tone for the
community feel and breath. When there are a collection of forums feeding
into the pot, then one gets the feeling like they should belong to one
of the forums rather than being in the collective pot. IMO, however, if
they all dress the same, at least we can have a better chance to speak
at the same level. We can still have identity and wear different ties
but the uniform still spells LibreOffice.

Thanks for your comments.

Marc


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Fabián Rodríguez-3 Fabián Rodríguez-3
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Andy Brown
On 11-01-09 08:28 PM, Andy Brown wrote:

> On Sun Jan 09 2011 07:04:12 GMT-0800 (PST)  RGB ES wrote:
>> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/forums/
>> They are "hidden" (no link on the help page) and you cannot post on
>> them yet, but they exists and you can register ;) So my question is:
>> how those forums will be organized? There will be one for each local
>> site or only one on English? Categories? Organization (moderators,
>> etc.)?
>> Regards
>> Ricardo
>>
>
> Why add another forum?  There is already a LibO Forum at
> http://libreofficeforum.org/forum .  The "Official" OOo Forum at
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ not only supports OOo
> but off shoots such as Libo, NeoOffice and StarOffice.  The
> "Un-official" Forum at http://www.oooforum.org/ is the oldest and
> largest OOo related support forum around and has received LibO
> questions and answers in the past few months.
>
> Andy
>

I just registered to http://libreofficeforum.org and I am fairly certain
it uses Drupal. I took the liberty to contact its creator and he's
already indicated he's willing to collaborate:

"I would be glad to see LibreOfficeForum.org as the official forum. I
personally am not a developer, and I don't have any official role in
LibreOffice. For years I have been a heavy user of OpenOffice, spending
many hours on it every day. And now I'm sure that the way forward is
LibreOffice. I'm not an expert yet, just a heavy user. ;-)

I created the site immediately after LibreOffice was announced, because
I saw that they had no web forums, and I personally don't like mailing
lists. And I know that there are several unofficial forums as well for
OpenOffice (like oooforum.org), so I'm sure that this site could also
occupy that role if the Document Foundation doesn't approve it officially.

It appears likely that LibreOffice will continue to diverge more and
more from the code base of OpenOffice, and it would be confusing to see
bugs and support requests for two different products in the same forum.
So for that reason I would personally recommend that the Document
Foundation not continue to use the same user.services.openoffice.org
forum for LibreOffice.

- Sam"

I supposed someone from TDF / steering committee could maintain this
contact more formally than me, I hope I am not overstepping anyone when
doing this.

Cheers,

Fabian

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Fabian,

2011/1/10 Fabián Rodríguez <[hidden email]>

> On 11-01-09 08:28 PM, Andy Brown wrote:
> > On Sun Jan 09 2011 07:04:12 GMT-0800 (PST)  RGB ES wrote:
> >> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/forums/
> >> They are "hidden" (no link on the help page) and you cannot post on
> >> them yet, but they exists and you can register ;) So my question is:
> >> how those forums will be organized? There will be one for each local
> >> site or only one on English? Categories? Organization (moderators,
> >> etc.)?
> >> Regards
> >> Ricardo
> >>
> >
> > Why add another forum?  There is already a LibO Forum at
> > http://libreofficeforum.org/forum .  The "Official" OOo Forum at
> > http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ not only supports OOo
> > but off shoots such as Libo, NeoOffice and StarOffice.  The
> > "Un-official" Forum at http://www.oooforum.org/ is the oldest and
> > largest OOo related support forum around and has received LibO
> > questions and answers in the past few months.
> >
> > Andy
> >
>
> I just registered to http://libreofficeforum.org and I am fairly certain
> it uses Drupal. I took the liberty to contact its creator and he's
> already indicated he's willing to collaborate:
>
> "I would be glad to see LibreOfficeForum.org as the official forum. I
> personally am not a developer, and I don't have any official role in
> LibreOffice. For years I have been a heavy user of OpenOffice, spending
> many hours on it every day. And now I'm sure that the way forward is
> LibreOffice. I'm not an expert yet, just a heavy user. ;-)
>
> I created the site immediately after LibreOffice was announced, because
> I saw that they had no web forums, and I personally don't like mailing
> lists. And I know that there are several unofficial forums as well for
> OpenOffice (like oooforum.org), so I'm sure that this site could also
> occupy that role if the Document Foundation doesn't approve it officially.
>
> It appears likely that LibreOffice will continue to diverge more and
> more from the code base of OpenOffice, and it would be confusing to see
> bugs and support requests for two different products in the same forum.
> So for that reason I would personally recommend that the Document
> Foundation not continue to use the same user.services.openoffice.org
> forum for LibreOffice.
>
> - Sam"
>
> I supposed someone from TDF / steering committee could maintain this
> contact more formally than me, I hope I am not overstepping anyone when
> doing this.
>

Well, this could be a great solution. Sophie, we should discuss this -at
least quickly- at the next SC call, what do you think?

Best,
Charles.


>
> Cheers,
>
> Fabian
>
> --
> LibreOffice questions ? Des questions sur LibreOffice ? Preguntas acerca
> de LibreOffice ? Ask LibreOffice: http://libreoffice.shapado.com/
> ~
> Fabián Rodríguez
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:MagicFab
>
>
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RGB.ES RGB.ES
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by drewjensen
Hy, Drew! Sorry for the delay, I was not on town yesterday and there
was a lot to read today ;)
On one hand, I see resource splitting (and a new forum imply that
resources will split: you cannot be on all places at the same time) as
a problem, because it is a synonym of duplicated efforts. But on the
other hand the splitting on the OOo forums came because there was no
"official" support channel outside mailing lists and it was not
possible to agree with a view on how to manage the forum with Ed.
And (third hand?) a lot of people do not like mailing lists: they are
chaotic, difficult to search with lots of duplicated threads.(1)
And no, I don't think nabble solve those problems: nabble make mailing
lists handling a bit easier, adding the possibility of
cross-referencing, but it is far from being a real forum.
For now we are OK with the existing forums, but on the long run it
seems LibO will diverge from OOo quite a lot. Even if some of us could
be crazy enough to have several packages running on parallel (LibO,
OOo, development versions...) and be aware of the growing differences,
soon or later the people helping on the forums will be hit by real
life and will need to do a choice sticking with one solution: under
that situation will not be realistic to have only one structure for
all the variants.
When this time arrive and LibO will be different enough from OOo,
maybe it will be too late to start a LibO own solution, as it was a
bit late when the OOo community forums started.
To grow healthy, LibO needs to communicate with their users on all
possible channels and a user forum is one of the most important ones.
But this communication must be between the project and its users, not
between the users and some third party group.
But if an official forum starts, I think LibO must be, first of all,
honest with itself and with the people interested and recognize its
inheritance: a section of it should be devoted to link to existing
resources where there are lots of user guides and good threads
available that are still valid. Only when the differences grow enough,
those links should be replaced by local content.
Just my 2¢

Ricardo

(1) Before someone start arguing that forums have the same problems (I
read that many times from people who prefer mailing lists), that's not
true: maybe some moderators could have that problem, but never the
forums by itself when considered as a tool. The OOo community forums
are a really good example: they are very clean and well organized
because moderators move, merge, split, cross reference and even remove
threads all the time. And on a phpBB forum that "house cleaning" is
really easy to perform: you only need dedicated people and we have
lots of dedicated people ;)

2011/1/10 drew <[hidden email]>:

> Howdy Ricardo,
>
> May I just ask first, before responding to others. You where part of the
> discussion on the user services forum, I think, at least I am pretty
> sure you would have read the last discussion in the admin area.
>
> So - do you think we should have a LibreOffice web forum?
>
> Thanks
>
> Drew

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Fabián Rodríguez-3
2011/1/11 Fabián Rodríguez <[hidden email]>:

> On 11-01-09 08:28 PM, Andy Brown wrote:
>> On Sun Jan 09 2011 07:04:12 GMT-0800 (PST)  RGB ES wrote:
>>> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/forums/
>>> They are "hidden" (no link on the help page) and you cannot post on
>>> them yet, but they exists and you can register ;) So my question is:
>>> how those forums will be organized? There will be one for each local
>>> site or only one on English? Categories? Organization (moderators,
>>> etc.)?
>>> Regards
>>> Ricardo
>>>
>>
>> Why add another forum?  There is already a LibO Forum at
>> http://libreofficeforum.org/forum .  The "Official" OOo Forum at
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ not only supports OOo
>> but off shoots such as Libo, NeoOffice and StarOffice.  The
>> "Un-official" Forum at http://www.oooforum.org/ is the oldest and
>> largest OOo related support forum around and has received LibO
>> questions and answers in the past few months.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>
> I just registered to http://libreofficeforum.org and I am fairly certain
> it uses Drupal. I took the liberty to contact its creator and he's
> already indicated he's willing to collaborate:
>
> "I would be glad to see LibreOfficeForum.org as the official forum. I
> personally am not a developer, and I don't have any official role in
> LibreOffice. For years I have been a heavy user of OpenOffice, spending
> many hours on it every day. And now I'm sure that the way forward is
> LibreOffice. I'm not an expert yet, just a heavy user. ;-)
>
> I created the site immediately after LibreOffice was announced, because
> I saw that they had no web forums, and I personally don't like mailing
> lists. And I know that there are several unofficial forums as well for
> OpenOffice (like oooforum.org), so I'm sure that this site could also
> occupy that role if the Document Foundation doesn't approve it officially.
>
> It appears likely that LibreOffice will continue to diverge more and
> more from the code base of OpenOffice, and it would be confusing to see
> bugs and support requests for two different products in the same forum.
> So for that reason I would personally recommend that the Document
> Foundation not continue to use the same user.services.openoffice.org
> forum for LibreOffice.
>
> - Sam"
>
> I supposed someone from TDF / steering committee could maintain this
> contact more formally than me, I hope I am not overstepping anyone when
> doing this.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fabian
>
> --
> LibreOffice questions ? Des questions sur LibreOffice ? Preguntas acerca
> de LibreOffice ? Ask LibreOffice: http://libreoffice.shapado.com/
> ~
> Fabián Rodríguez
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:MagicFab

To answer some questions, yes the forum uses Drupal, which is not the
best alternative for functionality or familiarity for end users as it
takes a lot more time to setup moderation, roles, etc. You will also
find many references to the inadequacies of using Drupal as a forum
system. [1]

If we are to use an external forum as the official infrastructure we
must have confidence about longevity of information, confidence in
appropriate moderation and assurances about the server hardware/plan.
IMO we shouldn't leave hosting of critical official infrastructure up
to one person, who 'could' forget to pay the bill for their server
plan, then poof... it's gone.

In sumary, I totally agree with the vast majority of comments here. If
we don't provide an official forum it will be done offsite, without
the checks and balances within the community. We also risk losing many
users and contributors if we don't provide this essential support
infrastructure.

I would love to see a phpBB test install on the official servers for
the website team to test/configure so we can consult early and often
with the community about our requirements.

Thanks,
Michael Wheatland

[1] http://drupal.org/node/242239#comment-1259545

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
I'm willing to do it, but probably the amount of traffic will kill my
internet connection :( i'm really considering migrating to a proper data
center here in Malta that has the fiber backbone to deal with the traffic.

What kind of forum are we talking about. Seeing as this is an open
source project, and i'm a big advocate of using open source apps. would
phpbb suffice?

On 1/10/11 6:18 PM, Michael Wheatland wrote:

> I think we should support them officially if they
> wish to accommodate our community. However you are spot on, LibreOffice is a
> new community with a new product. We need to build brand recognition by not
> confusing end users by pointing them to OOo branded infrastructure.
>
> I also share the passion for freedom that you advocate with external sites.
> Although I think there is justification for community oversight on an
> officially sanctioned forum.
>
> Nabble is not a forum, does not provide the functionality of a forum, and is
> likely to confuse end users who just want to ask a simple question on a
> forum.
>
> Also, I think it was suggested that I would set up something, this is not
> the case, I have my hands full at the moment, someone else would have to
> pick this up, but I would support the creation of a dedicated forum system
> fully.


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Hi, :-)

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 15:39, Jonathan Aquilina <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm willing to do it, but probably the amount of traffic will kill my
> internet connection :( i'm really considering migrating to a proper data
> center here in Malta that has the fiber backbone to deal with the traffic.
>
> What kind of forum are we talking about. Seeing as this is an open source
> project, and i'm a big advocate of using open source apps. would phpbb
> suffice?

My 0.2 cents is that it would not necessarily be a positive thing for
the project to set up something away from official TDF Web
infrastructure at the present time.

My personal recommendation would be to not go ahead with something
before having approval from the SC. Obviously, no-one can stop you
from doing what you want, but I feel it would be better to have a very
coordinated development of LibreOffice support resources.... I just
don't see any *need* for something launched as an independent
venture...

Again, this is just my 0.2 cents on the subject.

David Nelson

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Speaking of support is the libreoffice irc channel even mentioned on the
site? also i think things should be split off into a dev channel and
main libreoffice channel for support. If they remain as they are once LO
goes main stream, we will have one gigantic mess of support questions
and development

On 1/16/11 9:02 AM, David Nelson wrote:

> Hi, :-)
>
> On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 15:39, Jonathan Aquilina<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> I'm willing to do it, but probably the amount of traffic will kill my
>> internet connection :( i'm really considering migrating to a proper data
>> center here in Malta that has the fiber backbone to deal with the traffic.
>>
>> What kind of forum are we talking about. Seeing as this is an open source
>> project, and i'm a big advocate of using open source apps. would phpbb
>> suffice?
> My 0.2 cents is that it would not necessarily be a positive thing for
> the project to set up something away from official TDF Web
> infrastructure at the present time.
>
> My personal recommendation would be to not go ahead with something
> before having approval from the SC. Obviously, no-one can stop you
> from doing what you want, but I feel it would be better to have a very
> coordinated development of LibreOffice support resources.... I just
> don't see any *need* for something launched as an independent
> venture...
>
> Again, this is just my 0.2 cents on the subject.
>
> David Nelson
>


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Hi, :-)

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 16:13, Jonathan Aquilina <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Speaking of support is the libreoffice irc channel even mentioned on the
> site?

Sure, you bet. Right on the home page... ;-)

David Nelson

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

David please keep me in mind in regards to hosting official LO forums.
would it be possible to join the next SC meeting?


On 1/16/11 9:24 AM, David Nelson wrote:
> Hi, :-)
>
> On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 16:13, Jonathan Aquilina<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Speaking of support is the libreoffice irc channel even mentioned on the
>> site?
> Sure, you bet. Right on the home page... ;-)
>
> David Nelson
>


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Hi, :-)

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 16:52, Jonathan Aquilina <[hidden email]> wrote:
> David please keep me in mind in regards to hosting official LO forums. would
> it be possible to join the next SC meeting?

Jonathan, that's a decision that would be taken by the SC. You can
just monitor the SC discussion list for the dates and times of the
regular SC meetings, and post a request to that list to have the issue
discussed. If agreed (very probably the case), then you'd listen in to
the SC meeting, and would probably be requested to present your
proposal.

David Nelson

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Where would i need to sign up for the mailing list

On 1/16/11 10:20 AM, David Nelson wrote:

> Hi, :-)
>
> On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 16:52, Jonathan Aquilina<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> David please keep me in mind in regards to hosting official LO forums. would
>> it be possible to join the next SC meeting?
> Jonathan, that's a decision that would be taken by the SC. You can
> just monitor the SC discussion list for the dates and times of the
> regular SC meetings, and post a request to that list to have the issue
> discussed. If agreed (very probably the case), then you'd listen in to
> the SC meeting, and would probably be requested to present your
> proposal.
>
> David Nelson
>


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [Forum]How will the forum be organized?

Hi Jonathan, :-)

http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/

David Nelson

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi Michael, *,

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Michael Wheatland
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Your average end user
> will likely never search through mailing list threads,

The average end user will not search web-forums either.

My personal experience with forums is that they are useless for
technical, more complex questions, as most of the times it is clueless
people giving advice to other clueless people. Unless you're looking
for something obvious, most of the time a thread just lingers around
unanswered at all, or the one with the problem writes something like
"Oh, solved my problem, can be closed" and never bothered to state how
that person actually solved the problem. Or they are full of useless
suggestions that are not even covering the topic.
Again, my typical searches may be more "challenging" than those from
the average user, but I just hate all the noise that is in forums. I
only use one forum - for a well-seperated hobby. But those forums are
dedicated and exceptional in its quality (mainly to the few users it
has) - I used another one, but as the product is covered ran out of
production, it is idling along.
But I never use forums for software to to the lack of quality of the
answers therein.

> If we did provide a user forum, which I believe we should, using a
> dedicated forum system will provide far more functionality and
> usability,

That's what I've been saying from the very start..

> What do others think? Is the forum support option important for trust
> building and familiarity? What system would we use?

The ones that already exist. I absolutely don't see a reason for
creating yet another one. I think people agree on that one at least.

(and to avoid confusion: No, I don't consider nabble as a forum. Why I
personally don't like its's interface, I have no problem with
integrating it to the site as it seems technically easy to do)

ciao
Christian

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RGB.ES RGB.ES
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

It is clear you cannot please everyone: the list of problems you see
on forums is almost the same list of problems I usually see on mailing
lists...
Every communication system have the same merits and defects of the
people using it. Nothing more, nothing less. The system can only add
tools to easy the work of people using it, and the tools you have on
forums are for sure more useful that the tools available on mailing
lists.
The content is build by the people.
I think the OOo community forum are a good example of how forums can
be really useful: lots of difficult problems are solved there and all
the volunteers have good knowledge of what they are talking about.
Forums are noisy only when moderators do not do they work
(move/merge/split threads...). Of course there are a lot of noisy
forums out there, but that's a problem with the people, not with the
system ;)

2011/1/17 Christian Lohmaier <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Michael, *,
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Michael Wheatland
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Your average end user
>> will likely never search through mailing list threads,
>
> The average end user will not search web-forums either.
>
> My personal experience with forums is that they are useless for
> technical, more complex questions, as most of the times it is clueless
> people giving advice to other clueless people. Unless you're looking
> for something obvious, most of the time a thread just lingers around
> unanswered at all, or the one with the problem writes something like
> "Oh, solved my problem, can be closed" and never bothered to state how
> that person actually solved the problem. Or they are full of useless
> suggestions that are not even covering the topic.
> Again, my typical searches may be more "challenging" than those from
> the average user, but I just hate all the noise that is in forums. I
> only use one forum - for a well-seperated hobby. But those forums are
> dedicated and exceptional in its quality (mainly to the few users it
> has) - I used another one, but as the product is covered ran out of
> production, it is idling along.
> But I never use forums for software to to the lack of quality of the
> answers therein.
>
>> If we did provide a user forum, which I believe we should, using a
>> dedicated forum system will provide far more functionality and
>> usability,
>
> That's what I've been saying from the very start..
>
>> What do others think? Is the forum support option important for trust
>> building and familiarity? What system would we use?
>
> The ones that already exist. I absolutely don't see a reason for
> creating yet another one. I think people agree on that one at least.
>
> (and to avoid confusion: No, I don't consider nabble as a forum. Why I
> personally don't like its's interface, I have no problem with
> integrating it to the site as it seems technically easy to do)
>
> ciao
> Christian
>
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>
>

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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

Hi RGB ES, *,

RGB ES schrieb:

>It is clear you cannot please everyone: the list of problems you see
>on forums is almost the same list of problems I usually see on mailing
>lists...
>Every communication system have the same merits and defects of the
>people using it. Nothing more, nothing less. The system can only add
>tools to easy the work of people using it,

Good words..

>and the tools you have on forums are for sure more useful that the
>tools available on mailing lists.

What the hell does You make thinking that? They are different - yes but
more useful? It again depends on who does what!

Example search tool:
I personally like to search my locally archived mails (sometimes
thousands in one archive) with tools I'm familiar with - sometimes with
grep. So grep is more useful than a very limited search on some forum?

Nope! It's more useful for *me* beeing familiar with it. And obviously
this is one of the strong side of mailinglists: Everyone is free to
choose his own means organazing and reading the mails. Not only local
means but also reading and writing via nntp-client (gmane), listarchive
(mail-archive.com) even in a forum-like UI (nabble).

>The content is build by the people.

Exactly. And there is a point I didn't read up to now (or missed it):
Regardless how organized: The success of every volunteer driven support
offer is not only low threshold accessibility for people needing help,
but also enough "meat" for the people giving support! That is not only
a high rate of questions but also a certain level of knowlage available
for themselves!

And I know of many of those having that necessary level of knowlegde in
one or more areas of LO/OOo which declaired they never will join a
forum.

That doesn't mean a forum is a evel thing at all. But assumed the above
condition is true, it will never be a support offer representing all
available knowledge. Admittedly it can complete the support chain -
as did the german ooo-forum I know from telling. No clue about the
international one.

>I think the OOo community forum are a good example of how forums can
>be really useful: lots of difficult problems are solved there and all
>the volunteers have good knowledge of what they are talking about.

>Forums are noisy only when moderators do not do they work
>(move/merge/split threads...). Of course there are a lot of noisy
>forums out there, but that's a problem with the people, not with the
>system ;)

again - good words ;o))

btw please consider
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
here: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.5

for more clear and efficient communication. :o))

[.. recycled TOFU ..]


Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)



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