[Forum]How will the forum be organized?

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

On 2011-01-17 7:50 AM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

> Hi RGB ES, *,
>
> RGB ES schrieb:
>
>> It is clear you cannot please everyone: the list of problems you see
>> on forums is almost the same list of problems I usually see on mailing
>> lists...
>> Every communication system have the same merits and defects of the
>> people using it. Nothing more, nothing less. The system can only add
>> tools to easy the work of people using it,

> Good words..

>> and the tools you have on forums are for sure more useful that the
>> tools available on mailing lists.

> What the hell does You make thinking that? They are different - yes but
> more useful? It again depends on who does what!

I'm really becoming more and more dismayed at all of the infighting
going on on these lists - it gives me pause that LibO may not be able to
survive, if those holding the reins right now are unable or unwilling to
make some changes that will smooth  the way for those wanting to
contribute, without fear that their efforts will all be for naught.

Case in point - Michael's work on Drupal would have provided integrated
mail list <> forums <> nabble so that any user could use their tool of
choice, and all would be interconnected, not isolated, making these
silly chest-thumping arguments about which tool is better totally moot.

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Best regards,

Charles

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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

Hi Charles, *,

I should never write mails before having the second cup of
coffee.

Charles Marcus schrieb:
>On 2011-01-17 7:50 AM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

[..]

>> What the hell does You make thinking that? They are different - yes
>> but more useful? It again depends on who does what!

>I'm really becoming more and more dismayed at all of the infighting
>going on on these lists - it gives me pause that LibO may not be able

Oh, sorry You are totally right!  My apologies.

> to survive, if those holding the reins right now are unable or
> unwilling to make some changes that will smooth  the way for those
> wanting to contribute, without fear that their efforts will all be
> for naught.

I'll care for more civilized wording in future.

>Case in point - Michael's work on Drupal would have provided
> integrated mail list <> forums <> nabble so that any user could use
> their tool of choice, and all would be interconnected, not isolated,
> making these silly chest-thumping arguments about which tool is
> better totally moot.


Thanks for pointing out.


Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)



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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Charles Marcus
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Case in point - Michael's work on Drupal would have provided integrated
> mail list <> forums <> nabble so that any user could use their tool of
> choice, and all would be interconnected, not isolated, making these
> silly chest-thumping arguments about which tool is better totally moot.

Charles,
The work on the Drupal development has halted as per the Steering
Committee statement.
There seems to be a disconnect between what the community/mailing list
groups want and what the Steering Committee is willing to support.

From my discussions with the individuals involved with the Drupal
development there seems to be a consensus that until the Steering
Committee allows the individual community groups some autonomy to make
their own decisions and avoids overruling the groups it is unlikely
that the development will continue. The vast majority of the website
team has been supporting and contributing to this development as it is
seen as the 'way forward' but the SC and some founding members have
made it clear that this development will not continue.

Personally I would like to see 'website team lead(s)' elected within
the website team, by the website team and decisions made at a
community level upheld without the SC stepping in.
If you or others wish to see this development continue, I would
suggest that you rally one or more of the SC members to overturn the
decisions made at the most recent meeting and allow autonomy within
the functional teams.

Thanks,
Michael Wheatland

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

Hi, :-)

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 15:42, Michael Wheatland
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Personally I would like to see 'website team lead(s)' elected within
> the website team, by the website team

Problem: who are the members of the website team then? That's not
something one can even actually properly establish at the moment...

> decisions [should be] made at a
> community level upheld without the SC stepping in

IMHO, not a good idea. The TDF/LibO Web infrastructure is a strategic
resource that should definitely be under SC management...

David Nelson

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Narayan Aras Narayan Aras
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RE: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Wheatbix

Hi Michael and Christoph,

> Charles,
> The work on the Drupal development has halted as per the Steering Committee statement.
> There seems to be a disconnect between what the community/mailing list
> groups want and what the Steering Committee is willing to support.
>
> From my discussions with the individuals involved with the Drupal
> development there seems to be a consensus that until the Steering
> Committee allows the individual community groups some autonomy to make
> their own decisions and avoids overruling the groups it is unlikely
> that the development will continue. The vast majority of the website
> team has been supporting and contributing to this development as it is
> seen as the 'way forward' but the SC and some founding members have
> made it clear that this development will not continue.
>
> Personally I would like to see 'website team lead(s)' elected within
> the website team, by the website team and decisions made at a
> community level upheld without the SC stepping in.
> If you or others wish to see this development continue, I would
> suggest that you rally one or more of the SC members to overturn the
> decisions made at the most recent meeting and allow autonomy within
> the functional teams.

I am truly lost in this maze.

So far, we had made good progress, as follows:

We identified 23 roles in the LibO ecosystem.
The idea was to create an integrated workflow that caters to their needs all.
A given team can assume multiple roles. Some roles may be re-assigned later.
The website was supposed to have a workflow that allows all roles to work collaboratively.
It was also supposed to help any contributor in taking up any role of his choice.

The website was also going to integrate internet-based tools for the entire SDLC.
In this, we were going to consult the people who are currently playing one or more of the 23 roles.

AFAIK, the current "SilverStripe" website is not being designed with these goals at all.
That is why we were talking about developing another website with strategically planned AI.

Why is that goal ditched all of a sudden?

And what on earth is going on??

Note that the "second" website has nothing to do with what CMS we should use.

Just put aside the perennial arguments about SilverStripe and Drupal for a moment.


Regards,
Narayan
     
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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
On 1/18/11 8:42 AM, Michael Wheatland wrote:

> If you or others wish to see this development continue, I would
> suggest that you rally one or more of the SC members to overturn the
> decisions made at the most recent meeting and allow autonomy within
> the functional teams.

I hope you have gone through my previous email to the website mailing
list. Rallying does not work now, and it will not work in the future. I
hope to have explained why the process adopted has not worked, and at
the end has generated a decision that some people do not like.

Although being perfectly qualified as a corporate marketing director, I
do not act as a marketing director within the community. Although being
trusted by many, I prefer to get consensus for most decisions I take or
I suggest.

Please understand that working in a cubicle at the very best solution,
without getting consensus before, does not belong to this community and
in general to free software communities. You cannot say "once you see it
you will love it", because volunteers - and here we are all volunteers -
prefer to have a say in decisions, even if this is just an "ok, you are
the master here".

Please refrain from going on in the wrong direction. I hope I have
provided enough hints (and Michael has added some English prose to this
in another message) for you to understand which might be the road to
follow to be listened. I have provided five questions which I hope will
find an answer.

If my English is bad to the point that it is impossible to understand
what I am writing, please ping me and I am sure we can find the time to
discuss on the phone.

Ciao, Italo

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Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

Hi Narayan, Michael :-)

If you read the various SC meeting minutes objectively, there was
never any firm commitment to going over to Drupal. It was, in fact, an
openness to re-consider the issue at a later date, and to evaluate a
working site alongside specific statements and proof of the advantages
that Drupal would bring.

The most recent SC meeting re-stated the same openess to that *in the
mid-term future*. But it was clearly desired to put an end to what has
become a disruptive argument backed up by what has been, IMHO,
disruptive disinformation about the SC's stance, in a quest to
"bulldoze" the adoption through.

In my own perception, it seemed to be less based on any possible
advantages that Drupal could bring to the Web infrastructure, and more
a question of forcing a Drupal adoption without any real consideration
of technical merits/demerits and TDF's more-urgent needs.

In reality, there is a lot of higher priority work to be done.

There has been *so* much written in the lists about all this - I think
many people are fed up of the subject, and I think it has caused a lot
of disharmony that is damaging to the project.

Progress will soon be made towards implementing the Community Bylaws
and steadily establishing a stable, community-driven governance for
the project. Charles Schulz drafted those bylaws, with public
discussion during the process on the SC discussion list. IMHO, they
are a good model of FOSS project governance, and a sincere effort to
apply high ideals of democratic community government within the
project.

If you guys can show some patience and forebearing in your desires, I
think you will have every fair opportunity to fulfill your goal of
Drupal adoption at a future date - if you can concretely demonstrate
that it is a better choice and truly advantageous for the community,
and if you follow the procedures and channels that will be implemented
for such purposes. But now is not the right time.

Meanwhile, if you are truly interested in getting involved in the
project's Web communications, I invite you both to work with me on the
subject, and to actually constructively contribute ideas, time and
written material as part of a team that has been placed, *as an
interim thing*, under my coordination and management.

If you can prove that you truly have the project's real interests at
heart, and that there is a genuine meritocratic justification, you
(and anyone else) have every chance of becoming the website content
lead in my stead, with my full support and cooperation, if there is an
official decision in that respect by the SC.

But you have to win that role by merit and real work that furthers the
project's immediate interests and needs.

So, I'm laying down a challenge to you: let's stop this damaging,
conflictual and time-wasting discussion on the mailing lists, and
let's get to work together building superb web content on the
SilverStripe site.

You will find me an objective, constructive, consensual and
cooperative person to work with. My only desire is to see real results
as quickly as possible.

We can arrange a website content team confcall at an early date and start work.

The only condition are that:

- We have to stop talking about Drupal at this time, and only think of
content and information for the LibreOffice and TDF community on
libreoffice.org.

- We have to commit to the governance laid down in the Community
Bylaws, and be supportive of the SC in *progressively* working towards
their implementation within a reasonable timeframe. In the design of
the bylaws, there are mechanisms for bringing about change in a fair
and viable manner. So, if there are things in them that displease you
now, you *will* have the opportunity to work towards change in them in
the future.

Please, guys, put Drupal out of your mind for the CMS for *at least*
6-9 months - indeed, there are perfectly rational reasons for deciding
to stay with SilverStripe as CMS quite far into the future. Maybe it
would be a good idea to think laterally and broach the subject of
Drupal-powered *forums* with the SC, instead?

Meanwhile, remember that there is an opportunity to take part in
exciting and interesting mass media communications work.

What do you say? :-) I am very keen to work with you, hear your
imaginative ideas, and see fruitful results on our
SilverStripe-powered CMS, libreoffice.org. :-)

David Nelson

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Robert Derman Robert Derman
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Re: [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Michael Wheatland wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Charles Marcus
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> Case in point - Michael's work on Drupal would have provided integrated
>> mail list <> forums <> nabble so that any user could use their tool of
>> choice, and all would be interconnected, not isolated, making these
>> silly chest-thumping arguments about which tool is better totally moot.
>>    
>
> Charles,
> The work on the Drupal development has halted as per the Steering
> Committee statement.
> There seems to be a disconnect between what the community/mailing list
> groups want and what the Steering Committee is willing to support.
>
> From my discussions with the individuals involved with the Drupal
> development there seems to be a consensus that until the Steering
> Committee allows the individual community groups some autonomy to make
> their own decisions and avoids overruling the groups it is unlikely
> that the development will continue. The vast majority of the website
> team has been supporting and contributing to this development as it is
> seen as the 'way forward' but the SC and some founding members have
> made it clear that this development will not continue.
>
> Personally I would like to see 'website team lead(s)' elected within
> the website team, by the website team and decisions made at a
> community level upheld without the SC stepping in.
> If you or others wish to see this development continue, I would
> suggest that you rally one or more of the SC members to overturn the
> decisions made at the most recent meeting and allow autonomy within
> the functional teams.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael Wheatland
>  
+1

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