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Harold Fuchs Harold Fuchs
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Forums - A Different Question

Please, why does the LibreOffice web page link to the forums for
OpenOffice.org ?

The current LO Help web page at http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ has two
links to OOo forums:
 - http://www.oooforum.org/
 - http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/

Harold Fuchs
London, England



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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Harold Fuchs
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Please, why does the LibreOffice web page link to the forums for
> OpenOffice.org ?
>
> The current LO Help web page at http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ has two
> links to OOo forums:
> - http://www.oooforum.org/
> - http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/
>
> Harold Fuchs
> London, England
>


Because they are a useful resource for getting LibreOffice help, as
LibreOffice and OpenOffice closely resemble each other.

There are millions of people using OpenOffice. There are fewer
millions (so far) using LibreOffice. The OOo forums are more mature
and more heavily trafficked than the LibreOffice forums.

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

Le 28/04/11 09:04 AM, Carl Symons a écrit :

> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Harold Fuchs
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Please, why does the LibreOffice web page link to the forums for
>> OpenOffice.org ?
>>
>> The current LO Help web page at http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ has two
>> links to OOo forums:
>> - http://www.oooforum.org/
>> - http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/
>>
>> Harold Fuchs
>> London, England
>>
>
>
> Because they are a useful resource for getting LibreOffice help, as
> LibreOffice and OpenOffice closely resemble each other.
>
> There are millions of people using OpenOffice. There are fewer
> millions (so far) using LibreOffice. The OOo forums are more mature
> and more heavily trafficked than the LibreOffice forums.
>

As the "forums" discussions are/have been/will be controversial, could
we add a more informative comment on the web page/forums section.
Something such Carl has just mentioned. Perhaps something like:

"You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run
by LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are
more mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the
LibreOffice project. LibreOffice does not offer a native forums board at
this time. A native forums board is still under consideration."

This way, the user, seeking help on this page, will be informed of the
outside links, informed of their solid performance in helping LO users,
informed that there is no native forums at this point and informed that
a forums board is still under consideration.

Although quite verbose, it would inform users of the situation at this
point and slow down the constant new threads about creating a native
forums board.

It is very clear that the forums topic is a recurring topic and that it
will most likely never disappear until a native forums board is created
OR until one/more of the external board adopt a name change that is more
inclusive of the LibreOffice name.

Cheers

Marc


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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 28/04/11 09:04 AM, Carl Symons a écrit :
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Harold Fuchs
>> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Please, why does the LibreOffice web page link to the forums for
>>> OpenOffice.org ?
>>>
>>> The current LO Help web page at http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ has
>>> two
>>> links to OOo forums:
>>> - http://www.oooforum.org/
>>> - http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/
>>>
>>> Harold Fuchs
>>> London, England
>>>
>>
>>
>> Because they are a useful resource for getting LibreOffice help, as
>> LibreOffice and OpenOffice closely resemble each other.
>>
>> There are millions of people using OpenOffice. There are fewer
>> millions (so far) using LibreOffice. The OOo forums are more mature
>> and more heavily trafficked than the LibreOffice forums.
>>
>
> As the "forums" discussions are/have been/will be controversial, could we
> add a more informative comment on the web page/forums section. Something
> such Carl has just mentioned. Perhaps something like:
>
> "You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by
> LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are more
> mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the LibreOffice
> project. LibreOffice does not offer a native forums board at this time. A
> native forums board is still under consideration."
>

I agree Marc.

I can't see into the future, but it is easy to imagine that there will
be an active LibreOffice forum sometime. Easy to imagine that The
Document Foundation would host it, sans ads. And that it will be the
GoTo LibO forum. This will be the case increasingly as OpenOffice
deteriorates (easy to imagine that too, IMO).

I'm not sure that the average user will get the meaning of "native
forums board". Maybe "official forum" or "forum sponsored by
LibreOffice itself".

"Still under consideration" may be technically accurate. I think that
it would be understandable and land better with users to say something
like "implementation details are still being discussed by the LibO
community".

I don't want to offend anyone's delicate sensibilities, but the forum
I use for LibO questions is Google Search. Search for "openoffice
forums" or "libreoffice forums", get more than a million results.
Thus, I think that it would be effective to add something to Marc's
write-up suggesting online search for solutions using either
LibreOffice or OpenOffice as a qualifier.

Carl

> This way, the user, seeking help on this page, will be informed of the
> outside links, informed of their solid performance in helping LO users,
> informed that there is no native forums at this point and informed that a
> forums board is still under consideration.
>
> Although quite verbose, it would inform users of the situation at this point
> and slow down the constant new threads about creating a native forums board.
>
> It is very clear that the forums topic is a recurring topic and that it will
> most likely never disappear until a native forums board is created OR until
> one/more of the external board adopt a name change that is more inclusive of
> the LibreOffice name.
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc
>
>
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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

Le 28/04/11 10:47 AM, Carl Symons a écrit :

> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Marc Paré<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Le 28/04/11 09:04 AM, Carl Symons a écrit :
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Harold Fuchs
>>> <[hidden email]>    wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Please, why does the LibreOffice web page link to the forums for
>>>> OpenOffice.org ?
>>>>
>>>> The current LO Help web page at http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ has
>>>> two
>>>> links to OOo forums:
>>>> - http://www.oooforum.org/
>>>> - http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/
>>>>
>>>> Harold Fuchs
>>>> London, England
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Because they are a useful resource for getting LibreOffice help, as
>>> LibreOffice and OpenOffice closely resemble each other.
>>>
>>> There are millions of people using OpenOffice. There are fewer
>>> millions (so far) using LibreOffice. The OOo forums are more mature
>>> and more heavily trafficked than the LibreOffice forums.
>>>
>>
>> As the "forums" discussions are/have been/will be controversial, could we
>> add a more informative comment on the web page/forums section. Something
>> such Carl has just mentioned. Perhaps something like:
>>
>> "You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by
>> LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are more
>> mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the LibreOffice
>> project. LibreOffice does not offer a native forums board at this time. A
>> native forums board is still under consideration."
>>
>
> I agree Marc.
>
>> I'm not sure that the average user will get the meaning of "native
> forums board". Maybe "official forum" or "forum sponsored by
> LibreOffice itself".
>
> "Still under consideration" may be technically accurate. I think that
> it would be understandable and land better with users to say something
> like "implementation details are still being discussed by the LibO
> community".
>

I am just keeping out of any comment on the state of forums right now.
It is just too explosive an issue.

So, incorporating your suggestions, the text would read:

"You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run
by LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are
more mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the
LibreOffice project. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums board
at this time. An official forums board is still under consideration."

Does this sound more informative?

Cheers

Marc


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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 28/04/11 10:47 AM, Carl Symons a écrit :
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Marc Paré<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 28/04/11 09:04 AM, Carl Symons a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Harold Fuchs
>>>> <[hidden email]>    wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please, why does the LibreOffice web page link to the forums for
>>>>> OpenOffice.org ?
>>>>>
>>>>> The current LO Help web page at http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/
>>>>> has
>>>>> two
>>>>> links to OOo forums:
>>>>> - http://www.oooforum.org/
>>>>> - http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/
>>>>>
>>>>> Harold Fuchs
>>>>> London, England
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because they are a useful resource for getting LibreOffice help, as
>>>> LibreOffice and OpenOffice closely resemble each other.
>>>>
>>>> There are millions of people using OpenOffice. There are fewer
>>>> millions (so far) using LibreOffice. The OOo forums are more mature
>>>> and more heavily trafficked than the LibreOffice forums.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As the "forums" discussions are/have been/will be controversial, could we
>>> add a more informative comment on the web page/forums section. Something
>>> such Carl has just mentioned. Perhaps something like:
>>>
>>> "You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run
>>> by
>>> LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are
>>> more
>>> mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the
>>> LibreOffice
>>> project. LibreOffice does not offer a native forums board at this time. A
>>> native forums board is still under consideration."
>>>
>>
>> I agree Marc.
>>
>>> I'm not sure that the average user will get the meaning of "native
>>
>> forums board". Maybe "official forum" or "forum sponsored by
>> LibreOffice itself".
>>
>> "Still under consideration" may be technically accurate. I think that
>> it would be understandable and land better with users to say something
>> like "implementation details are still being discussed by the LibO
>> community".
>>
>
> I am just keeping out of any comment on the state of forums right now. It is
> just too explosive an issue.
>
> So, incorporating your suggestions, the text would read:
>
> "You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by
> LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are more
> mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the LibreOffice
> project. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums board at this time.
> An official forums board is still under consideration."
>
> Does this sound more informative?
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc
>

Yes, now only one issue... "more mature" is comparative, but there is
no comparison present. (Well, one is implied.) I'd change this
sentence to:
These forums are mature and heavily trafficked. They offer quality
support for LibreOffice, and can be found by searching online.

Carl

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Augustine Souza Augustine Souza
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

Microsoft must be smiling.

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

In reply to this post by Carl Symons
Hi Carl

Le 28/04/11 11:22 AM, Carl Symons a écrit :

>>
>> "You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by
>> LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are more
>> mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the LibreOffice
>> project. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums board at this time.
>> An official forums board is still under consideration."
>>
>> Does this sound more informative?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Marc
>>
>
> Yes, now only one issue... "more mature" is comparative, but there is
> no comparison present. (Well, one is implied.) I'd change this
> sentence to:
> These forums are mature and heavily trafficked. They offer quality
> support for LibreOffice, and can be found by searching online.
>
> Carl
>

So this newer version:

"You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run
by LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are
mature and heavily trafficked. They offer quality support to LibreOffice
and can be found by searching online. LibreOffice does not offer an
official forums board at this time. An official forums board is still
under consideration."

I am not quite sure what is the significance of the "and can be found by
searching online". Remember, the reader is already on the LibreOffice
website page "getting help" page.[1] I am not sure if it needs this part
of the sentence as it is ambiguous.

Cheers

Marc

[1] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

In reply to this post by Augustine Souza
Le 28/04/11 12:34 PM, Augustine Souza a écrit :
> Microsoft must be smiling.
>

???


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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

In reply to this post by Augustine Souza
Hi Augustine, *,

Augustine Souza schrieb:

>Microsoft must be smiling.

Everyone more smiling in this world is a good one so:
Fine, if we are able to make even Microsoft happy..

.. and we even stay happy ourselves if not successful with this ;o)).


Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images



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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

In reply to this post by marcpare4
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Carl
>
> Le 28/04/11 11:22 AM, Carl Symons a écrit :
>>>
>>> "You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run
>>> by
>>> LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are
>>> more
>>> mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the
>>> LibreOffice
>>> project. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums board at this
>>> time.
>>> An official forums board is still under consideration."
>>>
>>> Does this sound more informative?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>
>> Yes, now only one issue... "more mature" is comparative, but there is
>> no comparison present. (Well, one is implied.) I'd change this
>> sentence to:
>> These forums are mature and heavily trafficked. They offer quality
>> support for LibreOffice, and can be found by searching online.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>
> So this newer version:
>
> "You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by
> LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are mature
> and heavily trafficked. They offer quality support to LibreOffice and can be
> found by searching online. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums
> board at this time. An official forums board is still under consideration."
>
> I am not quite sure what is the significance of the "and can be found by
> searching online". Remember, the reader is already on the LibreOffice
> website page "getting help" page.[1] I am not sure if it needs this part of
> the sentence as it is ambiguous.
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc
>

I'm fine if it's not there. Overly obsessive, but I'll work on getting
over it B^)

Carl

> [1] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/
>
>
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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

In reply to this post by Augustine Souza
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Augustine Souza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Microsoft must be smiling.
>

Yeah, it must be amusing for them to see a community of people working
out their own problems. If they'd buy our crap, they wouldn't have to
worry about such things as forums.

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

In reply to this post by Carl Symons
Le 28/04/11 01:16 PM, Carl Symons a écrit :

> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Marc Paré<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Hi Carl
>>
>> Le 28/04/11 11:22 AM, Carl Symons a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> "You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run
>>>> by
>>>> LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are
>>>> more
>>>> mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the
>>>> LibreOffice
>>>> project. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums board at this
>>>> time.
>>>> An official forums board is still under consideration."
>>>>
>>>> Does this sound more informative?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, now only one issue... "more mature" is comparative, but there is
>>> no comparison present. (Well, one is implied.) I'd change this
>>> sentence to:
>>> These forums are mature and heavily trafficked. They offer quality
>>> support for LibreOffice, and can be found by searching online.
>>>
>>> Carl
>>>
>>
>> So this newer version:
>>
>> "You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by
>> LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are mature
>> and heavily trafficked. They offer quality support to LibreOffice and can be
>> found by searching online. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums
>> board at this time. An official forums board is still under consideration."
>>
>> I am not quite sure what is the significance of the "and can be found by
>> searching online". Remember, the reader is already on the LibreOffice
>> website page "getting help" page.[1] I am not sure if it needs this part of
>> the sentence as it is ambiguous.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Marc
>>
>
> I'm fine if it's not there. Overly obsessive, but I'll work on getting
> over it B^)
>
> Carl
>
>> [1] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/

Thanks for the answer. So, we should then go with the blurb without the
"and can be found by searching online" part.

Here it is:

"You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run
by LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are
mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to LibreOffice.
LibreOffice does not offer an official forums board at this time. An
official forums board is still under consideration."

I'll post this blurb on the website list and ask that the "Forums"
section be updated to this new blurb.

Cheers

Marc


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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:


snip

>
> Thanks for the answer. So, we should then go with the blurb without the "and
> can be found by searching online" part.
>
> Here it is:
>
> "You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by
> LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are mature
> and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to LibreOffice. LibreOffice
> does not offer an official forums board at this time. An official forums
> board is still under consideration."
>
> I'll post this blurb on the website list and ask that the "Forums" section
> be updated to this new blurb.
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc
>

I like this Marc. Thank you for pulling it together.

Carl

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Harold Fuchs Harold Fuchs
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

In reply to this post by Carl Symons

>"Carl Symons" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
>news:[hidden email]...
>On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Harold Fuchs
><[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Please, why does the LibreOffice web page link to the forums for
>> OpenOffice.org ?
>>
>> The current LO Help web page at http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ has
>> two
>> links to OOo forums:
>> - http://www.oooforum.org/
>> - http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/
>>
>> Harold Fuchs
>> London, England
>>
>
>
>Because they are a useful resource for getting LibreOffice help, as
>LibreOffice and OpenOffice closely resemble each other.
>
>There are millions of people using OpenOffice. There are fewer
>millions (so far) using LibreOffice. The OOo forums are more mature
>and more heavily trafficked than the LibreOffice forums.
>
>

Has Oracle given permission for TDF to use its forum, or doesn't TDF need
such permission? Does TDF *want* to use an Oracle resource?


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Harold Fuchs
London, England



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Andrea Pescetti Andrea Pescetti
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

Harold Fuchs wrote:
> Has Oracle given permission for TDF to use its forum, or doesn't TDF need
> such permission? Does TDF *want* to use an Oracle resource?

I think Drew has already explained this on multiple mailing lists,
anyway: the forums at http://user.services.openoffice.org/ are run by
community members and not by Oracle, they explicitly include LibreOffice
among the supported software (see page header), they can be used with no
need for permissions from Oracle, and they are probably the best place
where LibreOffice users can get support if they don't like mailing
lists.

Regards,
  Andrea.


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Augustine Souza Augustine Souza
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Andrea Pescetti <[hidden email]>wrote:

> ...

: the forums at http://user.services.openoffice.org/ ... are probably the
> best place
> where LibreOffice users can get support if they don't like mailing
> lists.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
>
Very true. The mods and volunteers there do a wonderful job. Those forums
deserve a lot of credit (and publicity).

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NoOp NoOp
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

In reply to this post by Andrea Pescetti
On 04/30/2011 01:56 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

> Harold Fuchs wrote:
>> Has Oracle given permission for TDF to use its forum, or doesn't TDF need
>> such permission? Does TDF *want* to use an Oracle resource?
>
> I think Drew has already explained this on multiple mailing lists,
> anyway: the forums at http://user.services.openoffice.org/ are run by
> community members and not by Oracle, they explicitly include LibreOffice
> among the supported software (see page header), they can be used with no
> need for permissions from Oracle, and they are probably the best place
> where LibreOffice users can get support if they don't like mailing
> lists.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
>

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree...
http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
The resources are owned and operated by Oracle.

Whilst http://user.services.openoffice.org may (currently) tolerate LO
posts, certainly LO/TDF should prefer to not continue to send
users/prospective users to OOo properties for support and answers
regarding LO. Doing so is akin to having OOo send users/prospective
users to the LO users list for support.






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Isaac Hummel-2 Isaac Hummel-2
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

On 05/02/2011 10:49 PM, NoOp wrote:
> Sorry, but I'd have to disagree...
> http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
> The resources are owned and operated by Oracle.
>
> Whilst http://user.services.openoffice.org may (currently) tolerate LO
> posts, certainly LO/TDF should prefer to not continue to send
> users/prospective users to OOo properties for support and answers
> regarding LO. Doing so is akin to having OOo send users/prospective
> users to the LO users list for support.
Except that OpenOffice.org has a users mailing list and LO doesn't have
a web forum (and won't set one up in the foreseeable future, if the
discussions about it on these lists are anything to go by).

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Manfred Usselmann Manfred Usselmann
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Re: Forums - A Different Question

In reply to this post by NoOp
On Mon, 02 May 2011 19:49:53 -0700
NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 04/30/2011 01:56 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> > Harold Fuchs wrote:
> >> Has Oracle given permission for TDF to use its forum, or doesn't
> >> TDF need such permission? Does TDF *want* to use an Oracle
> >> resource?
> >
> > I think Drew has already explained this on multiple mailing lists,
> > anyway: the forums at http://user.services.openoffice.org/ are run
> > by community members and not by Oracle, they explicitly include
> > LibreOffice among the supported software (see page header), they
> > can be used with no need for permissions from Oracle, and they are
> > probably the best place where LibreOffice users can get support if
> > they don't like mailing lists.
> >
> > Regards,
> >   Andrea.
> >
> >
>
> Sorry, but I'd have to disagree...
> http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
> The resources are owned and operated by Oracle.

It's no contraction that the resource is made available by Oracle and
the forum is run by community members as stated by Drew.

Didn't Oracle anyhow recently announce that OpenOffice.org will become
a pure community project?


> Whilst http://user.services.openoffice.org may (currently) tolerate LO
> posts,

No, they don't just tolerate it, they explicitly support LibrOffice
posts:

"User community support forum for OpenOffice.org, StarOffice, NeoOffice
and LibreOffice"


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