Fw: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] pro-OpenDocument Format arguments

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Tom Tom
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Fw: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] pro-OpenDocument Format arguments

Hi :)
Sorry i just realised that i had hijacked another thread so i forwarded these emails to a new thread to break them free into a new thread of their own. 

The FSF seems positively rabid and starts with the premise that people want to be free rather than to just get on with work easily.  Your post makes a lot more sense and is a lot calmer.  Can i use parts of it to present an argument to work-colleagues and a few other people outside of TDF?
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Fri, 25/11/11, Italo Vignoli <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Italo Vignoli <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] pro-OpenDocument Format arguments
To: [hidden email]
Date: Friday, 25 November, 2011, 11:12

On 11/25/11 11:03 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

> Does anyone have a link to a calm, rational and preferably unbiased
> article about why ODF is so much better and what the problems are
> with MS proprietary formats?

There is a huge amount of literature on the web, but unfortunately is
either incomplete or strongly biased.

I have just written an email that covers the subject on the users@ list,
although partial in terms of scope.

I know that you have read my email, but I attach the text for all the
others that might have lost it.

--

TDF developers are working hard to improve the level of interoperability
with many file formats, because we want LibreOffice to be both the best
implementation of ODF (a format that we want to be the standard for
electronic documents) and the most interoperable office suite.

Users are free to use LibreOffice to read and write RTF and DOC/XLS/PPT
files (and even DOCX/XLSX/PPTX files), although they should understand
that only ODF will provide the best level of document interoperability,
as it is the native LibreOffice file format and it is also supported by
the latest versions of MS Office for Windows.

Of course, users should also understand that proprietary formats like
RTF and legacy MS Office formats have been developed in order to lock
them in into using MS Office, and should avoid the formats not because
they are intrinsically bad (although they often are) but because they
intentionally reduce their freedom.

Although user habits could let many user think that MS Office legacy
formats are the most practical for interoperability, they should not
overlook the fact that by sticking to MS Office legacy format they
perpetuate their lock in into Microsoft products.

TDF is actively promoting ODF, which is the format of choice for all
actual and future versions of LibreOffice. ODF is not only open and
standard, but is also easier to implement than other ISO standard
formats.  For instance, OOXML has been approved as ISO standard in 2008,
but after almost four years is still implemented in the non standard
"transitional" version even by Microsoft (the company behind the
original format) because of the incredible complexity of the format
(confirmed by the length of the documentation of over 7.200 pages, i.e.
almost six times as many as the ODF documentation).

This incredible complexity is a new form of lock in, as it makes
extremely difficult to reproduce the file format. LibreOffice, on the
other way, represents the best third party implementation of OOXML.

I think that LibreOffice advocates should promote ODF by suggesting them
to install LibreOffice, in order to get all the benefits of a truly open
and standard format as ODF, but should also respect the choice of people
who are not willing to change their office suite. Of course, if these
people are still using MS Office 2003, it is easy to explain that
LibreOffice provides a very similar user experience while offering a
large number of new features and security updates.

--

The problem is more political than technical. ODF is not superior per
se, under the technical point of view, but because is more accessible
and easier to implement.

OOXML complexity is the new lock in. Although the leap year bug has been
known for more than 20 years now, solving it means rewriting Excel (not
a trivial task). Because of this single bug, MS Office files - as of
today - are not compatible with the Gregorian calendar, which is
recognized as a reference standard by everyone (including Muslim and Far
East countries, with their own calendars) but Microsoft.

--
Italo Vignoli - [hidden email]
phone +39.348.5653829 - VoIP +39.02.320621813
skype italovignoli - gtalk [hidden email]

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Italo Vignoli Italo Vignoli
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Re: Fw: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] pro-OpenDocument Format arguments

On 11/25/11 12:41 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

> The FSF seems positively rabid and starts with the premise that
> people want to be free rather than to just get on with work easily.
> Your post makes a lot more sense and is a lot calmer.  Can i use
> parts of it to present an argument to work-colleagues and a few other
> people outside of TDF?

Although I share many FSF ideas, I do not approve at all their
communication strategy. You are free to use my text, and I have added to
my todo list a presentation on the subject.

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skype italovignoli - gtalk [hidden email]

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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Fw: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] pro-OpenDocument Format arguments

On 11/25/2011 07:14 AM, Italo Vignoli wrote:

> On 11/25/11 12:41 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
>
>> The FSF seems positively rabid and starts with the premise that
>> people want to be free rather than to just get on with work easily.
>> Your post makes a lot more sense and is a lot calmer.  Can i use
>> parts of it to present an argument to work-colleagues and a few other
>> people outside of TDF?
> Although I share many FSF ideas, I do not approve at all their
> communication strategy. You are free to use my text, and I have added to
> my todo list a presentation on the subject.
>

No matter how much better ODF is over MSO formats, it will take a lot of
effort to get businesses to switch.

We will never see ".doc" or ".docx" go away as the "default" format for
word processing.  It has been the business standard for too many years
for that to change.  So if a suite wants to be part of the business
market, it needs to be able to use MSO formats.

As for ODF, well I think it will grow in use.  I use it as my default
format[s] but I still have to send .doc files to many contacts who's
work have not thought of switching.  Several of these are at state
governed agencies that has too much of a ingrained use of MSO to be able
to break out of it easily.

As more and more governments respond to budget pressures and stop buying
MSO contracts, then we have a hope to continue to grow in the market.  
The issue is all of those legacy systems that cannot read/write ODF
formats.  Businesses will still need to deal with non-ODF formats for a
long time until those old systems are replaced with LO or other ODF
usable systems.

I will hope that more and more businesses use ODF for internal use,
while "exporting" those documents to MSO formats for external use.  If
MSO starts reading/writing ODF better, then ODF may grow faster.  If we
can find a filter that allows MSO to read/write ODF formats, for those
versions that did not try to built it in, then we can send that filter
to our business contacts as something that may help their businesses
deal with the International Standard Office Suite file formats called ODF.



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Tom Tom
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Re: Fw: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] pro-OpenDocument Format arguments

Hi :)
I really like the idea expressed at the end of Tim's post.  However i think such an add-on would need to work even with MSOs versions that do claim to support ODF as it would be better to be able to use the newer ODF 1.2 rather than the fairly ancient ODF 1.0.  

I didn't think MSO could use anything like add-ons, filters or anything like that.  
Regards from
Tom :)


"
--- On Sat, 26/11/11, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions <[hidden email]> wrote:

<snip />

> If we can find a filter that allows MSO to read/write ODF
> formats, for those versions that did not try to built it in,
> then we can send that filter to our business contacts as
> something that may help their businesses deal with the
> International Standard Office Suite file formats called
> ODF.
>

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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Fw: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] pro-OpenDocument Format arguments


There use to be such a filter from Sun, before Oracle took over it.
I wish I could find a copy of it again.

On 11/26/2011 10:10 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

> Hi :)
> I really like the idea expressed at the end of Tim's post.  However i think such an add-on would need to work even with MSOs versions that do claim to support ODF as it would be better to be able to use the newer ODF 1.2 rather than the fairly ancient ODF 1.0.
>
> I didn't think MSO could use anything like add-ons, filters or anything like that.
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
> "
> --- On Sat, 26/11/11, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
> <snip />
>
>> If we can find a filter that allows MSO to read/write ODF
>> formats, for those versions that did not try to built it in,
>> then we can send that filter to our business contacts as
>> something that may help their businesses deal with the
>> International Standard Office Suite file formats called
>> ODF.
>>


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Svante Schubert Svante Schubert
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Re: Fw: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] pro-OpenDocument Format arguments

http://www.chip.de/downloads/Sun-ODF-Plug-in-fuer-Microsoft-Office_24293087.html
But it was only a first step, of what might be possible. AFAIK Florian
Reuter has wrote it, at least pushed the stone..

Am 27.11.2011 23:14, schrieb webmaster for Kracked Press Productions:

>
> There use to be such a filter from Sun, before Oracle took over it.
> I wish I could find a copy of it again.
>
> On 11/26/2011 10:10 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
>> Hi :)
>> I really like the idea expressed at the end of Tim's post.  However i
>> think such an add-on would need to work even with MSOs versions that
>> do claim to support ODF as it would be better to be able to use the
>> newer ODF 1.2 rather than the fairly ancient ODF 1.0.
>>
>> I didn't think MSO could use anything like add-ons, filters or
>> anything like that.
>> Regards from
>> Tom :)
>>
>>
>> "
>> --- On Sat, 26/11/11, webmaster for Kracked Press
>> Productions<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>> <snip />
>>
>>> If we can find a filter that allows MSO to read/write ODF
>>> formats, for those versions that did not try to built it in,
>>> then we can send that filter to our business contacts as
>>> something that may help their businesses deal with the
>>> International Standard Office Suite file formats called
>>> ODF.
>>>
>
>


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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Fw: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] pro-OpenDocument Format arguments


Thanks for the link

I saved the page [PDF file translated into English] and saved the file.
I am keeping it in their own folder in my LO folder on my data drive
[Linux machine].

It states that the filter is for Word, Excel, and Power Point 2000
through 2007.
I have MSO 2003 as my last version, and will make sure I keep this
filter with my MSO copy for future use, for me, and for those I know who
still use MSO instead of LO.

Now I just will have to install MSO 2003 on my dual boot laptop to see
how it works, after the past few years of not using it.

On 11/27/2011 05:22 PM, Svante Schubert wrote:

> http://www.chip.de/downloads/Sun-ODF-Plug-in-fuer-Microsoft-Office_24293087.html
> But it was only a first step, of what might be possible. AFAIK Florian
> Reuter has wrote it, at least pushed the stone..
>
> Am 27.11.2011 23:14, schrieb webmaster for Kracked Press Productions:
>> There use to be such a filter from Sun, before Oracle took over it.
>> I wish I could find a copy of it again.
>>
>> On 11/26/2011 10:10 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
>>> Hi :)
>>> I really like the idea expressed at the end of Tim's post.  However i
>>> think such an add-on would need to work even with MSOs versions that
>>> do claim to support ODF as it would be better to be able to use the
>>> newer ODF 1.2 rather than the fairly ancient ODF 1.0.
>>>
>>> I didn't think MSO could use anything like add-ons, filters or
>>> anything like that.
>>> Regards from
>>> Tom :)
>>>
>>>
>>> "
>>> --- On Sat, 26/11/11, webmaster for Kracked Press
>>> Productions<[hidden email]>   wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip />
>>>
>>>> If we can find a filter that allows MSO to read/write ODF
>>>> formats, for those versions that did not try to built it in,
>>>> then we can send that filter to our business contacts as
>>>> something that may help their businesses deal with the
>>>> International Standard Office Suite file formats called
>>>> ODF.
>>>>
>>
>


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