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davidnelson davidnelson
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General questions and suggestions

Hi, :-)

General suggestion: would it be a good idea to specify somewhere that,
when drafting documentation in English that US spelling is the norm?

General question: since it's a wiki, doesn't it make more sense to
have the docs in wiki format rather than ODT?
I may have missed a decision and a reasoning about this, because of
the floods of threads there have been on the various lists over the
past weeks, so could you please excuse me if so and be kind enough to
briefly explain the adopted policies? Thanks if so...
I plan to work through the posted material and do some proofreading.

David Nelson

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: General questions and suggestions

I am not very fluent in American English.
In defence many people do not recognise the calibre of the English language
and do not realise they make an arse of themselves, as a result require a
likeable counsellor.
I heard a rumour you were a wilful traveller trying to fulfil a furore with
the colour of your language, maybe you should go and analyse your arguments
in an encyclopaedia or maybe it is simply a tricky Manoeuvre on yo*ur part.*

My mum would be very dissapointed, it is her speciality.
She and I would be honoured if you would use the Queens English.

Michael Wheatland :)

On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 4:51 PM, David Nelson <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi, :-)
>
> General suggestion: would it be a good idea to specify somewhere that,
> when drafting documentation in English that US spelling is the norm?
>
> David Nelson
>

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Frank Esposito Frank Esposito
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Re: General questions and suggestions

On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 3:32 AM, Michael Wheatland
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> I am not very fluent in American English.
> In defence many people do not recognise the calibre of the English language
> and do not realise they make an arse of themselves, as a result require a
> likeable counsellor.
> I heard a rumour you were a wilful traveller trying to fulfil a furore with
> the colour of your language, maybe you should go and analyse your arguments
> in an encyclopaedia or maybe it is simply a tricky Manoeuvre on yo*ur
> part.*
>
> My mum would be very dissapointed, it is her speciality.
> She and I would be honoured if you would use the Queens English.
>
> Michael Wheatland :)
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 4:51 PM, David Nelson <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi, :-)
> >
> > General suggestion: would it be a good idea to specify somewhere that,
> > when drafting documentation in English that US spelling is the norm?
> >
> > David Nelson
> >
>


English documentation should be in International English, not US. When we
produce something for the International community,  then an International
language should be used.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_English

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Nino Novak Nino Novak
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by davidnelson
On Friday 05 November 2010 08:21, David Nelson wrote:

> General question: since it's a wiki, doesn't it make more sense to
> have the docs in wiki format rather than ODT?

Which do you personally prefer?

Historcally, the question has been raised a couple of years ago in the
ooo project. The answer was to use the format in which most people
preferred to contribute (which seems pretty rational). Both
possibilities were offered, but AFAIK the community has preferred ODT
for writing User Guides by far, whereas Dev Documentation has been
mainly produced in wiki form.

> I may have missed a decision and a reasoning about this, because of
> the floods of threads there have been on the various lists over the
> past weeks, so could you please excuse me if so and be kind enough to
> briefly explain the adopted policies? Thanks if so...

I don't think that a formal decision has been made. Up to now, there is
no official (or inofficial) team in charge of the doc project. So who
should make a decision? Things are just evolving ;-)

But anyways - I think it would be a good decision to take ODT as master
format for User Guides and Wiki as master for Developer documents.
Conversion ODT -> Wiki and vice versa is possible but time consuming,
so keeping both formats in sync does not seem a good option unless we
have enough people taking the task.

With using drupal as CMS there could be a third option: to produce
drupal master documents which then could be offered in web form and
then transformed to ODT/PDF, but this possibility has to be implemented
and tested still. This will take some months, I think.

Nevertheless, for quick drafting, the wiki can always be used without
problems.

> I plan to work through the posted material and do some proofreading.

Fine.  

Nino

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi Micheal, :-)

On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 16:32, Michael Wheatland
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I heard a rumour you were a wilful traveller trying to fulfil a furore with
> the colour of your language, maybe you should go and analyse your arguments
> in an encyclopaedia or maybe it is simply a tricky Manoeuvre on yo*ur part.*

??? I'm mystified... what does that mean?? :-D
>
> My mum would be very dissapointed, it is her speciality.
> She and I would be honoured if you would use the Queens English.

Sure. I understand you, but unfortunately you're likely to be
disappointed, I'd say... Already what I saw of the Getting Started
guide is US spelling... And, in my experience, most non-English
speakers tend to prefer learning US English (French and Germans, for
instance)... But I'm not bothered. Whatever the documentation team
feels is better.

> English documentation should be in International English, not US. When we
> produce something for the International community,  then an International
> language should be used.

Sure... Do you have an International English grammar book laying down
internationally-agreed conventions? ;-)

This is one of those old arguments that never ends. :-D

I guess the documentation team lead's wisdom will prevail in the matter... :-)
I don't mind either way. :-)

0.2 cents.

David Nelson

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Frank Esposito Frank Esposito
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Re: General questions and suggestions

> Sure... Do you have an International English grammar book laying down
> internationally-agreed conventions? ;-)
>
>
>

sure do...

try these:



http://siteresources.worldbank.org/TRANSLATIONSERVICESEXT/Resources/Translation_Style_Guide_English.pdf

http://ec.europa.eu/translation/writing/style_guides/english/style_guide_en.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=r1bdk0YcPVsC&dq=international+english+guide&source=gbs_navlinks_s

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: General questions and suggestions

Hi, :-)

On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 21:12, Frank Esposito <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Sure... Do you have an International English grammar book laying down
>> internationally-agreed conventions? ;-)
>
> sure do...
>
> try these:
> http://siteresources.worldbank.org/TRANSLATIONSERVICESEXT/Resources/Translation_Style_Guide_English.pdf
> http://ec.europa.eu/translation/writing/style_guides/english/style_guide_en.pdf
> http://books.google.com/books?id=r1bdk0YcPVsC&dq=international+english+guide&source=gbs_navlinks_s

OK, cool, perhaps you could contact the guys who actually drafted the
documentation and enlighten them with the info... At the present time,
I'm just proofreading. But thanks for the heads-up. :-)

David Nelson

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by Nino Novak
Hi Nino, :-)

On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 21:05, Nino Novak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> General question: since it's a wiki, doesn't it make more sense to
>> have the docs in wiki format rather than ODT?
>
> Which do you personally prefer?

I don't have a preference, except that it's probably technically
easier to write in ODT and then be able to export to the wiki, PDF and
any other formats the project chooses to publish in. I guess that in
the absence of any recommendations from a documentation project lead,
I'd just watch contributors' habits and see from there.

> Historcally, the question has been raised a couple of years ago in the
> ooo project. The answer was to use the format in which most people
> preferred to contribute (which seems pretty rational). Both
> possibilities were offered, but AFAIK the community has preferred ODT
> for writing User Guides by far, whereas Dev Documentation has been
> mainly produced in wiki form.
>
> I don't think that a formal decision has been made. Up to now, there is
> no official (or inofficial) team in charge of the doc project. So who
> should make a decision? Things are just evolving ;-)

Jean Hollis Weber seems to be active in documentation, and seems to
have been an old-timer in the OOo project (if I'm not mistaken)...
Maybe he's the kind-of de facto lead for the moment?

> But anyways - I think it would be a good decision to take ODT as master
> format for User Guides and Wiki as master for Developer documents.
> Conversion ODT -> Wiki and vice versa is possible but time consuming,
> so keeping both formats in sync does not seem a good option unless we
> have enough people taking the task.
>
> With using drupal as CMS there could be a third option: to produce
> drupal master documents which then could be offered in web form and
> then transformed to ODT/PDF, but this possibility has to be implemented
> and tested still. This will take some months, I think.
>
> Nevertheless, for quick drafting, the wiki can always be used without
> problems.

OK, thanks, that gives one an idea. :-)

>> I plan to work through the posted material and do some proofreading.
>
> Fine.

OK, then I'll continue from where I started then. Thanks for the pointers. :-)

David Nelson

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by davidnelson
David,
Sorry, it was an attempt at a witty retort containing as many words spelled
differently in the American dialect.
I had a bit of trouble fitting 20+ words in three sentences which would be
considered to be incorrectly spelled by an American.

Honestly I have no opinion about this at all. I am more than happy to
contribute in ANY English dialect.
But it is a good point you raise. Thanks for kicking this discussion off.


On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 10:36 PM, David Nelson <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi Micheal, :-)
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 16:32, Michael Wheatland
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I heard a rumour you were a wilful traveller trying to fulfil a furore
> with
> > the colour of your language, maybe you should go and analyse your
> arguments
> > in an encyclopaedia or maybe it is simply a tricky Manoeuvre on yo*ur
> part.*
>
> ??? I'm mystified... what does that mean?? :-D
> >
> > My mum would be very dissapointed, it is her speciality.
> > She and I would be honoured if you would use the Queens English.
>
> Sure. I understand you, but unfortunately you're likely to be
> disappointed, I'd say... Already what I saw of the Getting Started
> guide is US spelling... And, in my experience, most non-English
> speakers tend to prefer learning US English (French and Germans, for
> instance)... But I'm not bothered. Whatever the documentation team
> feels is better.
>
> > English documentation should be in International English, not US. When we
> > produce something for the International community,  then an International
> > language should be used.
>
> Sure... Do you have an International English grammar book laying down
> internationally-agreed conventions? ;-)
>
> This is one of those old arguments that never ends. :-D
>
> I guess the documentation team lead's wisdom will prevail in the matter...
> :-)
> I don't mind either way. :-)
>
> 0.2 cents.
>
> David Nelson
>
> --
> E-mail to [hidden email]<documentation%[hidden email]>for instructions on how to unsubscribe
> List archives are available at
> http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/documentation/
> All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>

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Nino Novak Nino Novak
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Hello David,

On Friday 05 November 2010 14:47, David Nelson wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 21:05, Nino Novak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Historcally, the question has been raised a couple of years ago in
> > the ooo project. The answer was to use the format in which most
> > people preferred to contribute (which seems pretty rational). Both
> > possibilities were offered, but AFAIK the community has preferred
> > ODT for writing User Guides by far, whereas Dev Documentation has
> > been mainly produced in wiki form.
> >
> > I don't think that a formal decision has been made. Up to now,
> > there is no official (or inofficial) team in charge of the doc
> > project. So who should make a decision? Things are just evolving
> > ;-)
>
> Jean Hollis Weber seems to be active in documentation, and seems to
> have been an old-timer in the OOo project (if I'm not mistaken)...
> Maybe he's the kind-of de facto lead for the moment?

As the ooo community as a whole did not follow the transition to LibO,
my feeling is that the community here is kind of starting from scratch.
We should take the chance and try to establish our own identity, leads
and processes. IMHO, of course.

But maybe I'm wrong, so don't take my words for the only truth possible.

Jean, you're always welcome to take/continue your role as doc lead here,
too :-)

Nino

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: General questions and suggestions

Hi Nino, :-)

On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 22:19, Nino Novak <[hidden email]> wrote:
> But maybe I'm wrong, so don't take my words for the only truth possible.

Sure, I understand, and thanks again for the helpful info. :-)

David Nelson

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Jeff Prater Jeff Prater
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Re: General questions and suggestions

To me, it seems easier to compile the documentation in web form first, then
export it to ODF or PDFs. Only one person can work on a document at a time,
and I would imagine most people would want to view the documentation online
before downloading a text document.

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Le 2010-11-05 03:21, David Nelson a écrit :

> Hi, :-)
>
> General suggestion: would it be a good idea to specify somewhere that,
> when drafting documentation in English that US spelling is the norm?
>
> General question: since it's a wiki, doesn't it make more sense to
> have the docs in wiki format rather than ODT?
> I may have missed a decision and a reasoning about this, because of
> the floods of threads there have been on the various lists over the
> past weeks, so could you please excuse me if so and be kind enough to
> briefly explain the adopted policies? Thanks if so...
> I plan to work through the posted material and do some proofreading.
>
> David Nelson
>

Hi David

I am lurking the documentation mailist to help pick aspects of the
documentation process that may apply to the development of the
TDF/Drupal Drupal site. I'm a member of the Drupal team.

However, I am also a member of the marketing team. If I could perhaps
just add my opinion to this.

 From the perspective of the "outside world" the public face of the LibO
documents section, it would seem to make sense that documents be
provided in the first place in our native ODT formats. This should be
trumpeted as our success in document achievement. I think that this is
an expectation that we all share.

Also, if we are going to keep advertising the virtues of the ODF files.
It would seem to make sense that we find ways to make the ODF files
system "play nice" with the internal document flow. What better occasion
would we get than having the use of a corporate-like structure such as
the "TDF/LibreOffice document team division" use the ODF files
internally at developing documents from start to end. We have our devs
on-side for the development of an Office Suite championing the use of
ODF, would it not make sense that we would try to make the
creation/editing of internal ODF documents part of the internal process?
The devs could could help in making this work. We could then, without
any doubt, suggest and prove that using the ODF in creating documents in
a corporate structure, from start to end production, is entirely and
assuredly possible.

If so, as a group of committed document editing professionals, as you
all are, you could use this occasion to streamline the ODF documents to
work in such a process.

This would certainly help in marketing our LibO Suite as a viable office
suite for the corporate/enterprise world.

Just my thoughts.

Marc
Member of the TDF/LibO Marketing Team
Member of the TDF/LibO Drupal Website Development Team


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Le 2010-11-05 09:12, Frank Esposito a écrit :

>
> http://siteresources.worldbank.org/TRANSLATIONSERVICESEXT/Resources/Translation_Style_Guide_English.pdf
>
> http://ec.europa.eu/translation/writing/style_guides/english/style_guide_en.pdf
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=r1bdk0YcPVsC&dq=international+english+guide&source=gbs_navlinks_s
>

Thanks Frank for these links.

Marc


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Nino Novak Nino Novak
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by marcpare4
On Friday 05 November 2010 18:27, Marc Paré wrote:

> Just my thoughts.

Marc,

you're certainly right but nevertheless I'd propose to stay pragmatic
and to leave it to people to write documents the way they like most and
to provide the infrastructure to transform documents (from ODT to web
or vice versa).

Nino

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi Michael, :-)

On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 21:52, Michael Wheatland
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> David,
> Sorry, it was an attempt at a witty retort containing as many words spelled
> differently in the American dialect.
> I had a bit of trouble fitting 20+ words in three sentences which would be
> considered to be incorrectly spelled by an American.
>
> Honestly I have no opinion about this at all. I am more than happy to
> contribute in ANY English dialect.
> But it is a good point you raise. Thanks for kicking this discussion off.

No problem :-) I regret that my burned-out intellect didn't rise to
the challenge. :-D

David Nelson

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi Marc, :-)

On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 01:27, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Also, if we are going to keep advertising the virtues of the ODF files. It
> would seem to make sense that we find ways to make the ODF files system
> "play nice" with the internal document flow. What better occasion would we
> get than having the use of a corporate-like structure such as the
> "TDF/LibreOffice document team division" use the ODF files internally at
> developing documents from start to end.

+1 ... And a better starting point for conversions to other formats,
too, IMHO, after I thought further about the question. :-)

David Nelson

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by Nino Novak
Le 2010-11-05 14:43, Nino Novak a écrit :

> On Friday 05 November 2010 18:27, Marc Paré wrote:
>
>> Just my thoughts.
>
> Marc,
>
> you're certainly right but nevertheless I'd propose to stay pragmatic
> and to leave it to people to write documents the way they like most and
> to provide the infrastructure to transform documents (from ODT to web
> or vice versa).
>
> Nino
>

Thanks Nino.

That is exactly what I am proposing. If we can't use the ODF  in a
pragmatic way with our suite, then, how can we advertise that it is so
to others?

Marc


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yorick yorick
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by Nino Novak
On Saturday 06 Nov 2010 03:19:23 Nino Novak wrote:

> Hello David,
>
> On Friday 05 November 2010 14:47, David Nelson wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 21:05, Nino Novak <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Historcally, the question has been raised a couple of years ago in
> > > the ooo project. The answer was to use the format in which most
> > > people preferred to contribute (which seems pretty rational). Both
> > > possibilities were offered, but AFAIK the community has preferred
> > > ODT for writing User Guides by far, whereas Dev Documentation has
> > > been mainly produced in wiki form.
> > >
> > > I don't think that a formal decision has been made. Up to now,
> > > there is no official (or inofficial) team in charge of the doc
> > > project. So who should make a decision? Things are just evolving
> > > ;-)
> >
> > Jean Hollis Weber seems to be active in documentation, and seems to
> > have been an old-timer in the OOo project (if I'm not mistaken)...
> > Maybe he's the kind-of de facto lead for the moment?

Jean is a "She", and she has led the OOoAuthors project since it's inception
and if you had done a bit of research you would have found out that she is a
highly respected Technical Editor and a published Author on things OOo. And
I'm not so sure she would get off being referred to as an "OldTimer"  :)

Frankly I see no reason why we don't use OOoAuthors as the place to produce
documentation.  The software in general will be the same with minor
differences.  The challenge for the LibreO team will be keeping track of and
documenting those differences.  OOoAuthors is not part of OOo it is an
independent group that happens to contribute to the OOo documentation project.  
Any fork or version based on the OOo source could use the OOoAuthors Manuals.


>
> As the ooo community as a whole did not follow the transition to LibO,
> my feeling is that the community here is kind of starting from scratch.
> We should take the chance and try to establish our own identity, leads
> and processes. IMHO, of course.

To me, the most productive thing people could do is join the OOoAuthors team
and contribute there, then take the product and edit and add to suit for
LibreO.  For instance pdf import is installed by default, a chapter for that
or standard extensions would have to be added and so on.
>
> But maybe I'm wrong, so don't take my words for the only truth possible.
>
> Jean, you're always welcome to take/continue your role as doc lead here,
> too :-)

I'm so glad that you have the Authority to grant this.  :/

cheers
GL

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Nino Novak Nino Novak
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Re: General questions and suggestions

In reply to this post by marcpare4
On Friday 05 November 2010 20:21, Marc Paré wrote:

> That is exactly what I am proposing. If we can't use the ODF  in a
> pragmatic way with our suite, then, how can we advertise that it is
> so to others?

It's not only about being able to use ODF but in addition about what is
the most efficient/pragmatic workflow for delivering good quality
documentation in time. Therefore, we have to test all possibilities and
to choose what is most appropriate. And stay prepared to adapt/change
our workflow when needed.

Nino


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