How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

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adept adept
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How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

I noticed a problem in a 3.5 RC 1, I was able to reproduce it every time
I tried, and I decided to follow the nice end-user friendly links during
the bug hunt. It felt really good as a non-developer to contribute in
this very small way. I found the form for filing a big report helpful,
although I have filed bug reports galore during my days as a Beta
tester, year after year, for a database management title.

So I filled in the sections of the bug report with the pertinent
information. IMO there is next to no room in my report for
misunderstanding as to what I am talking about and how to reproduce it.

A developer tests it on a different platform, cannot reproduce, and
basically spanks me by suggesting:

- that I should have added screenshots (how would you take a screenshot
of an Undo that does not work right?!),

- I should have clicked some link he provided and read detailed
instructions on how to submit my report (the link he tells me I should
have read does not exist on the nice friendly page at
https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/bug/)

- that I should include my " LibO localization (UI language, Locale
setting)" which the form for the report did not ask me for

- should include my "Libo settings that might be related to your
problems" AND WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN thinks the end-user




All in all this is very discouraging. I had high hopes when I heard
about the bug hunt and saw the well-done page for the general public to
submit bugs, that maybe this time around I've found an OS project where
my contribution, however tiny, would go smoothly and be satisfactory. I
do not understand what was unclear about my report but since it was
apparently completely insufficient and unintelligible, should I spare my
valuable time from submitting any more?

This kind of treatment (see below) is classic for developers who never
get out of their cubby to say hi to an end user and have a beer and get
any sense of who it is they are even writing software for. My bug report
is very clear, IMO. I did mention the keystroke for the problematic
operation. I did describe the "Current Behavior" and the "Expected
Behavior" as per the form that was presented for me to fill in. There is
no way to take a screenshot of it, I'd have to make a movie. Most of
this: " OS (Version, Distribution, Language)" was included in my user
agent string, and nothing additional such as language was asked for in
the form. So now my bug report is marked NEEDSINFO and I'm expected to
supply all this info that I either already did supply or that is
impossible to supply or that I have to start studying documentation to
even know what the requested info is (" LibO localization") (sorry I'm a
dumb American. I download. I install. I use. I have no clue about
"localization" or where to begin to look for " Libo settings that might
be related to your problems")

To sum up, I think I did a pretty damned good job as a non-developer in
my bug report. I think it is clear. I also believe that instead of
marking it "NEEDSINFO" this developer should have left it as Unconfirmed
and asked someone on a Mac to confirm. I will not be going back to
interact with this developer. And I seriously doubt I'll be filing
another bug report. Sorry to say. Very regretfully.

Sorry to be so steamed. Thank you for reading.

kazar

==============================

(bug     45247)

Ilyse Kazar 2012-01-25 14:46:07 PST

Problem description:

Steps to reproduce:
1. Open a spreadsheet that has data in some cells. I have tested with .csv and .ods
2. Click on a populated cell, start typing a few letters (i.e., to replace what was there
3. Press Undo (Cmd-Z) to undo your edit (i.e., in hopes of restoring the original contents of the cell). Press Undo again. Maybe again.

Current behavior: The Undo starts suggesting possible content matches from other cells. No matter how many times you press undo the original contents of the
cell will not reappear. It appears that the auto-complete logic is somehow trumping the Undo logic.

Expected behavior: Undo should restore what was in a cell before typing.

Platform (if different from the browser):

Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:9.0.1) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/9.0.1

Comment 1 <https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45247#c1> Rainer
Bielefeld 2012-01-25 21:25:16 PST

NOT reproducible with "LibreOffice 3.5.0 RC2 German UI/Locale [Build-ID: e371a95-bf68a13-5a1aa2b-d3c1ae9-b938258] on German WIN7 Home Premium (64bit)

@Ilyse Kazar:
May I ask you to read  hints on<http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport>?
Then please:
- Attach a sample document (not only screenshot)
- Attach screenshots with comments if you believe that that might explain the
   problem better than a text comment. Best way is to insert your screenshots
   into a DRAW document and to add comments that explain what you want to show
- Contribute a step by step instruction containing every key press and every
   mouse click how to reproduce your problem (and if possible how to created a
   sample document from the scratch)
- add information
   -- what EXACTLY is unexpected
   -- and WHY do you believe it's unexpected (cite Help or Documentation!)
   -- concerning your PC
   -- concerning your OS (Version, Distribution, Language)
   -- concerning your LibO localization (UI language, Locale setting)
   –- Libo settings that might be related to your problems
   -- how you launch LibO and how you opened the sample document
   –- If you can contribute an OOo Issue that might be useful
   -- everything else crossing your mind after you read linked texts



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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

Hi Kazar,

Thanks for posting here, of course your bug report, and sorry that you
got annoyed.

adept techlists - kazar wrote (14-02-12 05:52)
> I noticed a problem in a 3.5 RC 1, I was able to reproduce it every time
> [...]
> (bug 45247)

Rainer is our most active QA volunteer.
His comment states that he cannot reproduce your problem. And then gives
some hints that in his experience are useful.
Knowing him, I cannot imagine that this is meant as personal criticism.
Really sorry if it gave you that impression.

Regards,

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  - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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Andras Timar Andras Timar
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Re: How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

2012/2/14 Cor Nouws <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Kazar,
>
> Thanks for posting here, of course your bug report, and sorry that you got
> annoyed.
>
> adept techlists - kazar wrote (14-02-12 05:52)
>>
>> I noticed a problem in a 3.5 RC 1, I was able to reproduce it every time
>> [...]
>> (bug 45247)
>
>
> Rainer is our most active QA volunteer.
> His comment states that he cannot reproduce your problem. And then gives
> some hints that in his experience are useful.
> Knowing him, I cannot imagine that this is meant as personal criticism.
> Really sorry if it gave you that impression.
>

Sure it was not personal, as the comment looks like a copy&pasted
boilerplate text that goes under every unconfirmed bugs. :)
Clearly, this bug should be confirmed on Mac.

Best regards,
Andras

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Rainer Bielefeld-2 Rainer Bielefeld-2
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Re: How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

In reply to this post by adept
We are talking about
<https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45247>

Hi Ilyse Kazar,

as you read I'm not a developer, and I do not want to discourage
anybody, my only goal is to process the thousands of unconfirmed (not
"UNCONFIRMED") as quick as possible. For a better understanding here
some short explication why I askd for exactly that information:

- Attach a sample document
   Sometimes a Bug only is visible with particular document settings. It
   costs 1 minute for a reporter to create a document with 1 populated
   cell, but may be hours for a reviewer to find what particular
   settings cause the bug. When the reviewer observes that the bug is
   reproducible with reporter's sample, but not with an won sample, he
   knows where to search.
- Attach screenshots
   Screenshots might contain additional information that you use
   a particular theme, use a particular language, may be we can
   see what OS version you use, you would be astonished concerning
   our diagnostic skills ;-)
   Of course I do not want to see a not working undo, but may be the
   suggestion list contains a hint?
- Language information
   Many shortcuts are localization related, and we saw strange
   effects ...
- Libo settings that might be related ...
   It's the simple demand to think about settings you did. For your bug
   there is no particular suspect, but you never know ...
- how you launch LibO ...
   For example we have bugs that a new document created from Explorer
   uses a different template or language or other setting than a
   document created from start center.
- What EXACTLY is unexpected ...
   You write about 2 effects
   a) "UNDO does not work" - I would not expect UNDO working in that
      situation, may be you only wanted to add additional info?
   b) "... suggesting possible content ..." for me that is really
      unexpected.

And info that a bug is  not reproducible with an OS different from
reporter's also ha it's own value.

So the demanded additional info can save a lot of time, and you get the
benefit that you might have it fixed in 3.5.1 and not in 5.0 by lucky
chance, because we do not find out the reasons for the problem.

And ba the way, if you have a suggestion for a text demanding for
exactly that information,  clear and brief, understandable for non
native English speakers, but more encouraging (I know, my comments often
sound unintendedly rough), I am open minded.

Best regards

Rainer

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

In reply to this post by adept
I step in the discussion, as I am a Mac user (although not really
skilled in catching and reporting bugs).

I have some comments below.

On 2/14/12 5:52 AM, adept techlists - kazar wrote:

> Problem description:

> Steps to reproduce:
> 1. Open a spreadsheet that has data in some cells. I have tested with
> .csv and .ods

OK, done.

> 2. Click on a populated cell, start typing a few letters (i.e., to
> replace what was there

OK, done.

> 3. Press Undo (Cmd-Z) to undo your edit (i.e., in hopes of restoring the
> original contents of the cell). Press Undo again. Maybe again.

If you press Enter and set the content of the cell, then the subsequent
Cmd-Z works without any problem and restores the original content of the
cell which has just been edited.

If you do not press Enter and press Cmd-Z while you are still in editing
mode, then you see some random content and you are never able to restore
the original content of the cell. When you are in editing mode (i.e.,
before pressing Enter), you should press Esc to restore the original
content (this brings you out of editing mode without applying the change).

So, the fact that Cmd-Z does not restore the original content of the
cell while you are still in editing mode cannot be considered a bug as
the right command while in editing mode is Esc (Escape).

I do not know if the random content that shows up when pressing Cmd-Z
while you are still in editing mode can be considered a bug (actually,
the random content that shows up is the same on Mac and Linux, as I have
just tested the same file on both platforms, and thus it might be
related to the file).

I hope all this helps.

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Italo Vignoli
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Uwe Altmann Uwe Altmann
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Re: How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

In reply to this post by Rainer Bielefeld-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Ilyse, *

Added some info to the bugfile.

- --
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Uwe Altmann
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adept adept
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Re: How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

In reply to this post by Rainer Bielefeld-2
On 2/14/12 3:45 AM, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:

> We are talking about
> <https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45247>
>
> Hi Ilyse Kazar,
>
> as you read I'm not a developer, and I do not want to discourage
> anybody, my only goal is to process the thousands of unconfirmed (not
> "UNCONFIRMED") as quick as possible. For a better understanding here
> some short explication why I askd for exactly that information:
>

Rainer, thank you very much for the additional insights.


For this group, not aimed at Rainer in particular --

To an end-user with limited understanding of the QA process, being
presented with the nice friendly easy to fill in form on
https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/bug/ only then to be instructed to
read a much more complex page about how to file a bug report and to be
asked to log back in to additionally add screenshots, provide
localization information, to examine the dozens of settings options and
try to figure out which ones might be pertinent to the problem ... this
feels like what is called in English "bait and switch" (i.e., present
something that looks easy and engaging at the outset, and then after the
"prey" is "hooked" change the terms of the relationship).

To Rainer:

I did not understand that you were simply pasting in boilerplate from
somewhere else, I thought you were asking me to provide all that
information. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

To all:

I would guess that LO QA would like to have all users, including the
average every-day end user, submit bugs. Nevertheless, based on Rainer's
well-reasoned response explaining that bug reports that do not include
certain elements such as sample docs, screenshots, localization info and
other things that are not asked for in the public-facing bug report
form, are developers being done a disservice? I can indeed imagine much
more time being required of folks doing QA because they must experiment,
for examples, with all permutations of settings and locales in order to
try to reproduce a bug.

On the other hand ... if I had been an "average end-user" such as a
secretary who decided to take some time out of their day to go to
libreoffice.org, click on "Bug" and fill in the form, and then got a
notification asking me to provide all kinds of additional info, I would
(1) not be engaging with you here on this list, and (2) would ignore the
request because I am on the job and responsible for doing other things
for my boss. Thus the issue would sit there in the system as NEEDSINFO.

So I can't say I know what the solution is, but there seems to be a real
disconnect between the form presented to the public when filing a bug
from the main LO site (at https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/bug/ )
and what developers really need as per the wiki that is not linked to at
all on this page.

<snip>

> And ba the way, if you have a suggestion for a text demanding for
> exactly that information,  clear and brief, understandable for non
> native English speakers, but more encouraging (I know, my comments
> often sound unintendedly rough), I am open minded.

Hmm. I do have some suggestions. Should I post them here or send privately?

kazar

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adept adept
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Re: How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

Apologies for my poorly written email. I should have waited until my
headache goes away :p

I wrote:
> Nevertheless, based on Rainer's well-reasoned response explaining that
> bug reports that do not include certain elements such as sample docs,
> screenshots, localization info and other things that are not asked for
> in the public-facing bug report form, are developers being done a
> disservice?

That sentence might make more sense like this:

Nevertheless, based on Rainer's well-reasoned response explaining that
bug reports that do not include certain elements (such as sample docs,
screenshots, localization info and other things that are not asked for
in the public-facing bug report form) can actually stress QA/devs more
than help them, are developers being done a disservice by the existence
of a public-facing bug report form that does not ask for important details?



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Guy Voets Guy Voets
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Re: How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

In reply to this post by italovignoli
2012/2/14 Italo Vignoli <[hidden email]>

> I step in the discussion, as I am a Mac user (although not really
> skilled in catching and reporting bugs).
>
> I have some comments below.
>
> On 2/14/12 5:52 AM, adept techlists - kazar wrote:
>
> > Problem description:
>
> > Steps to reproduce:
> > 1. Open a spreadsheet that has data in some cells. I have tested with
> > .csv and .ods
>
> OK, done.
>
> > 2. Click on a populated cell, start typing a few letters (i.e., to
> > replace what was there
>
> OK, done.
>
> > 3. Press Undo (Cmd-Z) to undo your edit (i.e., in hopes of restoring the
> > original contents of the cell). Press Undo again. Maybe again.
>
> If you press Enter and set the content of the cell, then the subsequent
> Cmd-Z works without any problem and restores the original content of the
> cell which has just been edited.
>
> If you do not press Enter and press Cmd-Z while you are still in editing
> mode, then you see some random content and you are never able to restore
> the original content of the cell. When you are in editing mode (i.e.,
> before pressing Enter), you should press Esc to restore the original
> content (this brings you out of editing mode without applying the change).
>
> So, the fact that Cmd-Z does not restore the original content of the
> cell while you are still in editing mode cannot be considered a bug as
> the right command while in editing mode is Esc (Escape).
>
> I do not know if the random content that shows up when pressing Cmd-Z
> while you are still in editing mode can be considered a bug (actually,
> the random content that shows up is the same on Mac and Linux, as I have
> just tested the same file on both platforms, and thus it might be
> related to the file).
>
> I hope all this helps.
>
> --
> Italo Vignoli - [hidden email]
>

Hello,

LibO 3.5 on iMac with Lion 7,2
I conform Italo's findings.

• When you are still in the cell you should use Escape to restore the
previous content of the cell.
• When you return to a cell you modified, Cmd-Z will help.

--
Guy
using LibO 3.4.5 & 3.5 on a iMac Intel DualCore Lion
-- please reply only to [hidden email] --
Dodoes can't afford to have headaches

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Rainer Bielefeld-2 Rainer Bielefeld-2
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Re: How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

In reply to this post by adept
adept techlists - kazar schrieb:

> On the other hand ... if I had been an "average end-user" such as a
> secretary who decided to take some time out of their day to go to
> libreoffice.org, click on "Bug" and fill in the form, and then got a
> notification asking me to provide all kinds of additional info, I would
> (1) not be engaging with you here on this list, and (2) would ignore the
> request because I am on the job and responsible for doing other things
> for my boss. Thus the issue would sit there in the system as NEEDSINFO.

Hi kazar ,

of course, I know several people who are very clever, but would have
very serious problems to contribute requested information or to proceed
the requested tests. Currently the only solution I see is to recommend
to consult a User mailing list and to find a tutor who will help. Doing
that support in the bug report would make the report too confusing. For
that we should have a default proceeding (something like subject line
"NEEDHELP Bug 12345") and a shot manual in the Wiki what will help the
user to find the newsgroup, may be to assign and and and. As a first
step I added a mailing list hint to my standard text.

CU

Rainer

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Rainer Bielefeld-2 Rainer Bielefeld-2
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Re: How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs

Rainer Bielefeld schrieb:

> and to find a tutor who will help.

What of course might be the QA tester himself


Rainer

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