How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

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TomD TomD
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

Hi :)
Sounds like using .doc is the best answer after all.  The Pdf route is
intriguing.  I think Virgil probably knows whether any of his students have
relevant accessibility issues.

Part of the reason for ODF is to have a format that can avoid all these
pitfalls.  When ODF is more commonly used this whole confusing situation
should be in the past.  Some people even think it's the format that could
drive wider-spread wholesale migration to LibreOffice, OpenOffice, KOffice,
Gnome Office and all the rest.

At the moment we are still stuck with a lot of places having to offer at
least 2 formats;  Pdf and the older MS one.

Regards from
a Tom :)





On 1 May 2018 at 19:19, Dave Howorth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, 1 May 2018 18:03:42 +0000
> toki <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 04/30/2018 07:39 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> >
> > > The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to
> > > create the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to
> > > your students.\
> >
> > Government agencies make great targets for ADA &Section 508 lawsuits,
> > because they have deep pockets. Since PDF is not an accessible file
> > format, that fill-able PDF form means that a student with an a11y can,
> > and since they are probably broke, will sue the college for Section
> > 508/ADA violations. (For individuals with a11y issues, filing ADA
> > lawsuits is a great source of income. One lawsuit a month. One
> > settlement per month, US$5,000 per month, tax free.  Great way to
> > supplement one's disability check.)
> >
> > IOW, fill-able PDF is an extremely bad idea.
>
> What's the 'approved' solution?
>
> > jonathon
>
>
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TomD TomD
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
Hi :)
Thanks :)  The link answered most of my questions about fillable fields.
It's good to see there are options such as text-fields and radio-buttons.

I still think the old MS format is the way to go for sharing documents in
the here&now but that ODF is the way to go for long-term storage.

Thanks and regards from
a Tom :)




On 1 May 2018 at 17:33, Virgil Arrington <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 04/30/2018 03:39 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > On 4/30/2018, 8:32:31 AM, Virgil Arrington <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Today, I will be drafting the final exam for my students. I will use LO
> >> Writer for the task. I will then email it to my students and they will
> >> type their answers right onto the computer file and email it back to me.
> >> I need to get the file to my students in a format they can easily use
> >> with their computers. I will use .DOC for this purpose because it's the
> >> easiest solution to this situation.
> > No, it is just the one you settled on.
> >
> > The easiest - and safst - approach would be to use Libreoffice to create
> > the form, save it as a fillable PDF form, then send that to your
> students.
> >
> Okay, I've done some digging to find out how to create fillable PDF
> forms in LO. I found the below  website that explains it somewhat.
>
> https://www.maketecheasier.com/create-a-pdf-with-
> fillable-forms-in-libreoffice/
>
> I've tried it and it works fairly well. I'm still learning some of the
> nuances. I'll test it on various systems and I may use it for my current
> exam. I like the idea of using PDF instead of .DOC, and I think it may
> even be nicer for my students.
>
> I love learning new things that LO can do that I had never thought
> possible.
>
> Virgil
>
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
Hi :)
When exporting as Pdf from LibreOffice or OpenOffice the dialogue-box has a
lot of options to play around with.  At least 1 of those options makes the
Pdf more accessible.

All those options are remembered and set as last used when you open that
dialogue again.  So once you find your preffered combination of options you
can "Next" swiftly through.

I found the accessibility option made the file-size quite a lot larger.  It
was only an issue for me about a decade ago when i reached 12 pages with
lots of images for a newsletter.  Around that sort of size i started to
bump into emailable limits (8Mb?) for some email systems.

MS Office doesn't seem to give many options for the Pdfs it produces ...

Regards from
a Tom :)




On 1 May 2018 at 18:55, Virgil Arrington <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you for the info. I'll have to research it further.
>
> Virgil
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: toki <[hidden email]>
> Date: 5/1/18 2:52 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users
> Group [Facebook]?
>
> On 05/01/2018 06:37 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>
> > Can you explain why PDF is not accessible for ADA purposes?
>
> A PDF can consist of either text, or images, or a combination of the
> two.  Screen readers can't read images.
> Provided your PDF is text only, it is accessible. If it has any images,
> or if it gets converted to images, it fails ADA requirements.
>
> Screen readers don't show where, or how to fill in the blank spaces in a
> fill-able PDF, and hence are not a11y.
>
> > don't understand how a file format can impact a person's disabilities.
>
> Consider the difference between audio captioning, closed captioning and
> open captioning.
>
> jonathon
>
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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by Dave Howorth
On 05/01/2018 07:19 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
>> IOW, fill-able PDF is an extremely bad idea.

> What's the 'approved' solution?

In order of accessibility:

* Plain text;
* MS Doc;
* MS Docx;
* RTF;
* ODT;

The issue with RTF is that screen readers trip up on some of the markup
syntax.

The issue with both MS DocX and ODT is that the software doesn't play
nicely with screen readers. ODT has a further issue with software not
playing nicely with speech input systems.

jonathon

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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by TomD
On 05/01/2018 08:31 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)
> Sounds like using .doc is the best answer after all.  The Pdf route is
> intriguing.  I think Virgil probably knows whether any of his students have
> relevant accessibility issues.
>

Yes, none of my students are visually impaired and none need a screen
reader, so I'm not concerned about lawsuits. However, I also teach
several on-line courses, and this discussion has caused me to rethink
some of my practices. After some very preliminary searching, it appears
that the problem is not limited to PDF files.

Apparently, at least one of the problems is with graphics. As I
understand it (and I admit I understand very little of it), screen
readers turn text into speech and read the document to the user whose
vision prevents him/her from reading it visually. I guess screen readers
stumble on pictures. One problem with PDF is that, depending on how its
created, the entire file can be a graphic instead of text. For example,
if I scan a text document and save it as a PDF, what I have is not a
text file, but a picture of a text file. Jonathan suggested that the
fillable box in a PDF file is a graphic that screen readers don't
comprehend. I'll defer to his greater knowledge of the subject.

Since graphics aren't limited to PDF files, neither is the potential for
ADA violations. In my cursory search, I found articles explaining how to
make DOC files and HTML files more accessible as well as PDF files.
(See, e.g.,
https://www.section508.gov/content/build/create-accessible-documents). I
found an interesting article from 2011 dealing with making
OpenOffice.org files more accessible.
(https://webaim.org/techniques/ooo/) One recommendation was to use
paragraph styles for headings as they not only make the headings look
nice, but also provide logical organization of the document, so here's
yet another benefit of using styles!

Having said all this, I also had the opportunity to experiment with LO's
creation of fillable PDF forms. I like the way it works, but from what I
have found, it would seem to work best if the fillable text is only one
line -- a short box here or there. My test is an essay test with answers
that will be several paragraphs long. At least with the PDF I created,
all of the fillable text was input on one line that didn't initially
wrap. Only after I typed the entire fill-in text and hit <enter> did the
text wrap and become formatted to the text box that I had created.
Assuming this is the way it always works, I don't think this would be
very convenient for students trying to write a three paragraph essay. I
think it it would be better for students to simply type their answers
into the word processing file rather than a PDF. But, it's nice to know
that LO has this capability. I'm sure I'll use it in other situations.

I also checked one of my school's computers and it appears that it has
MSO 2006 on it -- at least that's what the Program Files menu says. It
has been several years since I have used any version of MSO, so I'm not
up to speed on the different versions of it over the years, and I found
no way to open an "about MS Word" dialog to see what version it actually
was. I say this to confirm that I have no confidence that my students'
unique version of Word (whatever it might be) would be able to
adequately read an ODT file created by my LO 6.0.3. However, to date,
I've never had a problem with an LO generated DOC file being read by my
students' computers.

So, as Tom suggests, I've come full circle. When I create an essay exam,
I always save it in ODT format until I'm ready to share with my
students. Then, I save a copy of the final draft to DOC and send it to
my students. LO's conversion has really grown over the years, and I very
impressed with the results. My students then type their answers onto the
DOC file and send it back to me. It's a very easy solution to create
and, thus far, has worked very well.

Virgil

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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by jonathon-6

On 05/02/2018 08:07 AM, toki wrote:

> In order of accessibility:
> * Plain text;
> * MS Doc;
> * MS Docx;
> * RTF;
> * ODT;
>
>
> jonathon
>

Interesting list. I've always liked working with plain text files.

Do you have any information/opinion about various forms of markdown
files (i.e. Markdown, RestructureText, AsciiDoc).

This semester, I played with making slide presentations using AsciiDoc
and its "slidy" backend.

The source file might look something like:

===
Title
===

Slide Title
--------------

* A Bulleted item

** A nested bulleted item with *boldface* type.
** Another nested bulleted item with _italicized_ text.

Another Slide Title
--------------------------


After creating the document, I run it through AsciiDoc's converter and
it creates a very simple slide presentation in HTML format. However, the
source file remains plain text. Would a screen reader get tripped up by
the various formatting tags (* A Bulleted item; _italics_, *boldface*)?

Virgil

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
On Mon Apr 30 2018 17:43:00 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
Arrington <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in
> saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a
> "fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?
>
> Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format,
> although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known
> how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?

You create the form in Libreoffice using form fields, then when you want
to save it as a fillable PDF, choose 'Export', then select PDF as the
type, then after you click OK, you have additional options, one of which
is 'Create PDF form'...

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by jonathon-6
On Tue May 01 2018 14:06:17 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), toki
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
>> possibility of doing it directly within LO.

> Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do
> something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?

Probably not, but this is irrelevant, since it is entirely possible to
create a PDF Fillable Form that isn't in violation of anything.

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=screen+reader+friendly+fillable+PDF+forms

> I am not a lawyer.
> This is not legal advice.

So, maybe you shouldn't make such loud, arrogant pronouncements,
especially without having all of the facts.

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by Ben Oliver
On Mon Apr 30 2018 17:49:32 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Ben Oliver
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 18-04-30 21:43:00, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in
>> saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a
>> "fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?
>>
>> Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format,
>> although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known
>> how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?

> My understanding is that it's a feature pretty much only covered by
> Adobe software. That includes filling out a form.

Nope. I've created numerous PDF fillable forms, first in OpenOffice,
then in Libreoffice, and have used different PDF viewers to fill them
out (Adobe Reader, PDF XChange Viewer, Sumatra PDF, etc)...

> Things may have changed since I last checked.

Some time ago, in fact...

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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by TomD
On Mon Apr 30 2018 16:21:51 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Tom Davies
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi :) 
> Pdf is not meant to be editable.  It's purpose was to look the same
> everywhere on any machine and be easy to open on anything with a free,
> small, easily installed program. 

Apparently you are unfamiliar with PDF forms, which have fields built
into them that can easily be filled out by most any PDF reader, but the
form itself cannot be edited.

I've been using them since forever.

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Krunose Krunose
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

On 02.05.2018 16:58, Tanstaafl wrote:

> On Mon Apr 30 2018 16:21:51 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Tom Davies
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi :)
>> Pdf is not meant to be editable.  It's purpose was to look the same
>> everywhere on any machine and be easy to open on anything with a free,
>> small, easily installed program.
> Apparently you are unfamiliar with PDF forms, which have fields built
> into them that can easily be filled out by most any PDF reader, but the
> form itself cannot be edited.
>
> I've been using them since forever.
>

I had hard time filling some of them out (created in LO) as fonts get
squashed to a thin line and I was not been able to read anything.

Testing mainly done in Ocular. Maybe due to some "non-standard"
characters like š, č, ć, ž, đ... Could not figure out is it PDF reader
or LO when creating PDF.

Kruno

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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
HTML should good for screen readers.

See: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA for
how to use it.

Although Writer have abilities...

>
>       Support assistive technology tools (program restart required)
>
> Allows you to use assistive tools, such as external screen readers,
> Braille devices or speech recognition input devices. The Java Runtime
> Environment must be installed on your computer before you can enable
> assistive support.
>
https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Accessibility

It is not clear to me how well HTML export works

See: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA for
how to use it.

Sorry if I've duplicated, but this is long list of e-mails.



On 5/2/2018 9:08 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> On 05/02/2018 08:07 AM, toki wrote:
>> In order of accessibility:
>> * Plain text;
>> * MS Doc;
>> * MS Docx;
>> * RTF;
>> * ODT;
>>
>>
>> jonathon
>>
> Interesting list. I've always liked working with plain text files.
>
> Do you have any information/opinion about various forms of markdown
> files (i.e. Markdown, RestructureText, AsciiDoc).
>
> This semester, I played with making slide presentations using AsciiDoc
> and its "slidy" backend.
>
> The source file might look something like:
>
> ===
> Title
> ===
>
> Slide Title
> --------------
>
> * A Bulleted item
>
> ** A nested bulleted item with *boldface* type.
> ** Another nested bulleted item with _italicized_ text.
>
> Another Slide Title
> --------------------------
>
>
> After creating the document, I run it through AsciiDoc's converter and
> it creates a very simple slide presentation in HTML format. However, the
> source file remains plain text. Would a screen reader get tripped up by
> the various formatting tags (* A Bulleted item; _italics_, *boldface*)?
>
> Virgil
>


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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
On 04/30/2018 05:22 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 11:11 AM, James Knott wrote:
>> Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
>> Document files.  Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
>> ODF files?
>>
> Thank you for the suggestion. My personal computer is Linux only, but
> I'll check it out on the school's computers to see how well MSO reads
> and writes to .odt. I don't even know what version of MSO the school uses.
>
> Virgil
The last time I worked for a school, it was before 2005, so there was
not LibreOffice. I do know many families cannot afford to buy, or rent,
MSO and all of its upgrades as the school upgrades. I use to live next
to a family who's adults will not let the students use the only computer
in the household.  Now it seems that every writing assignments taken
home required to be "typed" and no longer hand written. So from the
start, we no longer have the students get use to hand written work, so
their written documents are readable.  The built in spell checker makes
the need to learn how to spell words anymore.




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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by jonathon-6
On Wed May 02 2018 08:07:54 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), toki
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 05/01/2018 07:19 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
>>> IOW, fill-able PDF is an extremely bad idea.
>
>> What's the 'approved' solution?

> In order of accessibility:
>
> * Plain text;
> * MS Doc;
> * MS Docx;
> * RTF;
> * ODT;

What is that old saying about opinions?

Again, (properly constructed) fillable PDF forms is the only way to go.

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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by Tanstaafl
On 05/02/2018 10:58 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:

> On Tue May 01 2018 14:06:17 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), toki
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>>> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
>>> possibility of doing it directly within LO.
>> Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do
>> something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?
> Probably not, but this is irrelevant, since it is entirely possible to
> create a PDF Fillable Form that isn't in violation of anything.
>
> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=screen+reader+friendly+fillable+PDF+forms
>
>> I am not a lawyer.
>> This is not legal advice.
> So, maybe you shouldn't make such loud, arrogant pronouncements,
> especially without having all of the facts.
>

I found your suggestion to use fillable PDF forms intriguing and
certainly something I will consider in future, more appropriate,
situations. I also found Jonathon's legal concerns to be very helpful. I
want to make sure that the resources I create are fully accessible, and
I will have to weigh the effort it takes to create accessible documents
in whatever file format I use. I didn't find his pronouncements to be
loud or arrogant, but rather to contain useful information that has led
me to other useful information, just as I found the same with your
original suggestion.

Virgil

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

On Wed May 02 2018 16:04:41 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
Arrington <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I will have to weigh the effort it takes to create accessible documents
> in whatever file format I use.

For PF forms, it is one (or two?) checkboxes when exporting the document.

> I didn't find his pronouncements to be loud or arrogant, but rather
> to contain useful information that has led me to other useful
> information, just as I found the same with your original suggestion.

Well, I disagree.

Useful information? Personally, I don't find MIS-information all that
useful.

He absolutely slammed the door on PDF forms based on false and/or
mis-leading information. By loud/arrogant I mean he didn't even allow
for the possibility he may be wrong, and obviously didn't bother
checking his (false) claims before pronouncing them to the world,
thereby possibly precluding people (like yourself) from utilizing a
fabulous tool.

I suspect he may be one of the FSF nuts who reject PDF because it isn't
a 'free' file format - but I could be wrong (in which case I apologize).

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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

On Wed May 02 2018 16:31:08 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Tanstaafl
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Wed May 02 2018 16:04:41 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
> Arrington <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I will have to weigh the effort it takes to create accessible documents
>> in whatever file format I use.
>
> For PF forms, it is one (or two?) checkboxes when exporting the document.

Of course I meant PDF forms...

> I suspect he may be one of the FSF nuts who reject PDF because it isn't
> a 'free' file format - but I could be wrong (in which case I apologize).

By free, I mean free in a form acceptable to the FSF, which has a very
different meaning of free from what  mos people think of. I understand
their arguments, but they can be - well, the words 'zealot' and even
'cultish' come to mind.

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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

For anyone interested in this topic (accessibility of PDF documents for
those relying on screen readers), below is a link to a document prepared
by Adobe addressing the many issues document designers need to consider
when creating a PDF file.

https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/accessibility/pdfs/accessing-pdf-sr.pdf

There is apparently a lot to consider. To be fair, this isn't limited to
PDF files, although they seem to have unique problems not shared by
other formats.

This has been a very educational few days for me.

Virgil

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

On Thu May 03 2018 12:14:44 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
Arrington <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For anyone interested in this topic (accessibility of PDF documents for
> those relying on screen readers),

Ok, my last word on the subject...

Regardless, providing an INACCESSIBLE PDF form to the 99.99% of the
people who can fill them out without issues, and providing an
ALTERNATIVE for those who cannot, would completely circumvent and render
moot any potential legal issues.

People who seek to violate MY Rights to do whatever I ant in my personal
and business dealings - meaning, yes, I have the absolute Right to NOT
provide accessible ANYTHING to ANYONE.

Handicapped people (or whatever is the PC term of the day now for people
who have 'accessibility' needs) have the Right to find someone who can
or will provide services they can access.

Sorry, but Freedom ain't Free.

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TomD TomD
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Re: How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

In reply to this post by Tanstaafl
Hi :)
Easy tiger!  I know it must be frustrating that so many of us are so slow
and lacking in knowledge about these things but it seems like some of us
are getting somewhere, or at least catching-up.

Btw obviously PDF is editable to some degree or other by quite a few
programs these days.  LibreOffice is able to edit some of it.  There is
also a "Hybrid Pdf" which looks like it's only a Pdf until opened with
LibreOffice - LO gives a choice of opening the Odf contained inside the
Pdf.

However the main reason that proper Pdf Editors, such as Adobe's, are in
any demand at all is due to the failures of MS Office's constantly
inconsistent and unreliable formats plus the failure of any other program
to effectively compete with MSO.  I'm not sure why WordPerfect weren't able
to stay as number one but my guess would be some dodgy dealings somewhere.

Also it seems that people want their word-processor to produce output like
a Desktop Publisher.  MS's Publisher program is sufficiently complex that
it puts people off daring to try any of their competitors.  Scribus is
waaaay outside their comfort-zone.  Oddly when Writer was first being
created, before the days of OpenOffice, it was largely being built as a
Desktop Publishing program - although it's devs couldn't entirely agree
what to make it so it ended up mostly being a word-processor.  So, that is
one of the reasons why documents created by LibreOffice tend to look so
much less scrappy than ones made by MSO.

The fact that Pdfs are somewhat editable by quite a few programs now but
only properly editable by Adobe's expensive Pdf editor doesn't mean that
the format is meant to be editable.  It's a square peg in a round hole.

Regards from
a Tom :)









On 2 May 2018 at 14:58, Tanstaafl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue May 01 2018 14:06:17 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), toki
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> >> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
> >> possibility of doing it directly within LO.
>
> > Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do
> > something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?
>
> Probably not, but this is irrelevant, since it is entirely possible to
> create a PDF Fillable Form that isn't in violation of anything.
>
> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=screen+reader+friendly+fillable+PDF+forms
>
> > I am not a lawyer.
> > This is not legal advice.
>
> So, maybe you shouldn't make such loud, arrogant pronouncements,
> especially without having all of the facts.
>
> --
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>

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