IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
14 messages Options
mirek2 mirek2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

Hi guys,
On our last IRC chat [1], we've decided to try out a different way of
working for a month, until the next chat. One of the major changes we've
decided on is to abandon this mailing list (as a trial) and move our
conversations to Redmine.

Redmine is easier to look through than our mailing list archives, it's
arguably less intimidating to newcomers, and it allows file attachments. It
doesn't seem to allow posting to the forum via e-mail (yet [2]), but it
does allow following forum conversations by "watching" it. To watch a
forum, select "Watch" on the forum page and make sure you have "Only for
things I watch or I'm involved in" as your "Email notifications" setting.

So, until the next IRC chat, please *don't post to this mailing list*, and,
if anyone does post, please refer them to the redmine forum:
https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/projects/design/boards . If you
haven't registered for Redmine, please do so, and, if you need help,
contact me personally or post in this thread.

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2014-07-27
[2] http://www.redmine.org/issues/1616

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Jean-Baptiste Faure Jean-Baptiste Faure
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

Hi,

Le 28/07/2014 23:11, Mirek M. a écrit :
> Hi guys,
> On our last IRC chat [1], we've decided to try out a different way of
> working for a month, until the next chat. One of the major changes we've
> decided on is to abandon this mailing list (as a trial) and move our
> conversations to Redmine.

Is there a bridge between the Redmine forums and that mailing-list so
that it will be possible to read the forum offline ?

Is there another bridge between Redmine and our Nabble forums ?

Ok, I found the atom RSS flux but it is very hard to follow a discussion
on a forum. No discussion tree, only a time based organization, you do
not know to what message the message you are reading is responding.

Best regards.
JBF who continues to think that forum is a very poor and bad
communication tool.

--
Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Jean-Baptiste Faure-3 Jean-Baptiste Faure-3
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi,

Le 28/07/2014 23:11, Mirek M. a écrit :
> Hi guys,
> On our last IRC chat [1], we've decided to try out a different way of
> working for a month, until the next chat. One of the major changes we've
> decided on is to abandon this mailing list (as a trial) and move our
> conversations to Redmine.

Is there a bridge between the Redmine forums and that mailing-list so
that it will be possible to read the forum offline ?

Is there another bridge between Redmine and our Nabble forums ?

Ok, I found the atom RSS flux but it is very hard to follow a discussion
on a forum. No discussion tree, only a time based organization, you do
not know to what message the message you are reading is responding.

Best regards.
JBF who continues to think that forum is a very poor and bad
communication tool.

--
Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
dennisroczek dennisroczek
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

Well we could easily create an redmine account with the ML email address
and subscribe to every design ticket. So every discussion would be
posted also to the ML.

;-)

Regards,

Dennis Roczek

Am 04.09.2014 09:53, schrieb Jean-Baptiste Faure:

> Hi,
>
> Le 28/07/2014 23:11, Mirek M. a écrit :
>> Hi guys,
>> On our last IRC chat [1], we've decided to try out a different way of
>> working for a month, until the next chat. One of the major changes we've
>> decided on is to abandon this mailing list (as a trial) and move our
>> conversations to Redmine.
>
> Is there a bridge between the Redmine forums and that mailing-list so
> that it will be possible to read the forum offline ?
>
> Is there another bridge between Redmine and our Nabble forums ?
>
> Ok, I found the atom RSS flux but it is very hard to follow a discussion
> on a forum. No discussion tree, only a time based organization, you do
> not know to what message the message you are reading is responding.
>
> Best regards.
> JBF who continues to think that forum is a very poor and bad
> communication tool.
>


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
mirek2 mirek2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste Faure-3
Hi,

2014-09-04 9:53 GMT+02:00 Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> Le 28/07/2014 23:11, Mirek M. a écrit :
> > Hi guys,
> > On our last IRC chat [1], we've decided to try out a different way of
> > working for a month, until the next chat. One of the major changes we've
> > decided on is to abandon this mailing list (as a trial) and move our
> > conversations to Redmine.
>
> Is there a bridge between the Redmine forums and that mailing-list so
> that it will be possible to read the forum offline ?
>

You can get forum activity sent to your e-mail: log into Redmine, click
"Watch" on the forums page, and make sure that, in your Account settings,
you have e-mail notifications for things you watch set.

We don't want to forward things to the mailing list, though, because we
want the conversations to happen in one place and don't want people to
reply on the list.
We're getting rid of the list.

>
> Is there another bridge between Redmine and our Nabble forums ?
>

No.

>
> Ok, I found the atom RSS flux but it is very hard to follow a discussion
> on a forum. No discussion tree, only a time based organization, you do
> not know to what message the message you are reading is responding.
>

Try forwarding the messages to your e-mail as I described above.

>
> Best regards.
> JBF who continues to think that forum is a very poor and bad
> communication tool.
>

You should try it. :)

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Jean-Baptiste Faure-3 Jean-Baptiste Faure-3
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

Le 04/09/2014 10:56, Mirek M. a écrit :
[...]
> You can get forum activity sent to your e-mail: log into Redmine, click
> "Watch" on the forums page, and make sure that, in your Account settings,
> you have e-mail notifications for things you watch set.

You can't really work with that, it is just an alert by mail. The
message is send by "The Document Foundation Redmine
<[hidden email]>", that is not a useful
information to follow a discussion.

>
> We don't want to forward things to the mailing list, though, because we
> want the conversations to happen in one place and don't want people to
> reply on the list.

Hmm, looks like as if you wanted to keep discussions closed and private.
Ok, it will be easier to make decisions. Not sure that this way you can
make decisions useful for LibreOffice and its users.
What do you plan to make this forum discoverable ?

> We're getting rid of the list.
Not sure if design team is legitimate to decide that.
What do you plan to keep the list archive?

[...]
>> JBF who continues to think that forum is a very poor and bad
>> communication tool.
>>
>
> You should try it. :)

Instead of suggesting that I talk without knowing what I am talking
about, you should try to answer to my arguments against the use of forums.
Did you ever try a decent mail client? If you use a webmail, I can
understand why you prefer the forums. But the problem is not the use of
mailing-lists, it is how you manage your mails.

JBF

--
Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
sophi sophi
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

Hi Jean-Baptiste,


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Le 04/09/2014 10:56, Mirek M. a écrit :
> [...]
> > You can get forum activity sent to your e-mail: log into Redmine, click
> > "Watch" on the forums page, and make sure that, in your Account settings,
> > you have e-mail notifications for things you watch set.
>
> You can't really work with that, it is just an alert by mail. The
> message is send by "The Document Foundation Redmine
> <[hidden email]>", that is not a useful
> information to follow a discussion.
>

The Design team has chosen Redmine because it's not only about discussion
but a whole workflow for them.
If you plan to become part of the team I really encourage you to read the
wiki and the tickets on Redmine to get the full picture of what they want
to achieve

>
> >
> > We don't want to forward things to the mailing list, though, because we
> > want the conversations to happen in one place and don't want people to
> > reply on the list.
>
> Hmm, looks like as if you wanted to keep discussions closed and private.
> Ok, it will be easier to make decisions. Not sure that this way you can
> make decisions useful for LibreOffice and its users.
> What do you plan to make this forum discoverable ?
>

Lot of work is going on Redmine and even the marketing team is thinking
about a setting a similar workflow, so it's not private or separate, if a
team find it convenient to their worflow, it's only a tool.

>
> > We're getting rid of the list.
> Not sure if design team is legitimate to decide that.
> What do you plan to keep the list archive?
>
> [...]
> >> JBF who continues to think that forum is a very poor and bad
> >> communication tool.
> >>
> >
> > You should try it. :)
>
> Instead of suggesting that I talk without knowing what I am talking
> about, you should try to answer to my arguments against the use of forums.
> Did you ever try a decent mail client? If you use a webmail, I can
> understand why you prefer the forums. But the problem is not the use of
> mailing-lists, it is how you manage your mails.
>

I don't think that Mirek was suggesting that :-) It has proven that the
workflow on the mailing list was not efficient enough for the design team,
so if Redmine is better for their work, there is no problem, on the
contrary, we want their beautiful work :).
We will change the information on the right places and will help others to
reach the team, that's not a problem.

Cheers
Sophie

>
>
--
Sophie Gautier <[hidden email]>
Tel:+33683901545
Co-founder - Release coordinator
Certification Committee Member
The Document Foundation

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
dennisroczek dennisroczek
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste Faure-3
Hi *,

Am 04.09.2014 14:24, schrieb Jean-Baptiste Faure:

> Le 04/09/2014 10:56, Mirek M. a écrit :
> [...]
>> You can get forum activity sent to your e-mail: log into Redmine, click
>> "Watch" on the forums page, and make sure that, in your Account settings,
>> you have e-mail notifications for things you watch set.
>
> You can't really work with that, it is just an alert by mail. The
> message is send by "The Document Foundation Redmine
> <[hidden email]>", that is not a useful
> information to follow a discussion.

well redmine is adding it's own headers. so e.g. you can filter the
mails by using a filter filtering on the x-redmine-project header tag

X-Redmine-Project: nlc-de

(this example is for the german language project on redmine)

Dennis Roczek


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
sophi sophi
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste Faure
Hi Jean-Baptiste


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Le 28/07/2014 23:11, Mirek M. a écrit :
> > Hi guys,
> > On our last IRC chat [1], we've decided to try out a different way of
> > working for a month, until the next chat. One of the major changes we've
> > decided on is to abandon this mailing list (as a trial) and move our
> > conversations to Redmine.
>
> Is there a bridge between the Redmine forums and that mailing-list so
> that it will be possible to read the forum offline ?
>
> Is there another bridge between Redmine and our Nabble forums ?
>

That I need to check, but as you know I'm in Bern and have not the time
right now, but promise I'll do once I'm back this week end :)

>
> Ok, I found the atom RSS flux but it is very hard to follow a discussion
> on a forum. No discussion tree, only a time based organization, you do
> not know to what message the message you are reading is responding.
>

Let us some time to check what we can enhance here, the workflow is quite
new.

>
> Best regards.
> JBF who continues to think that forum is a very poor and bad
> communication tool.
>

:-)

Cheers
Sophie
--
Sophie Gautier <[hidden email]>
Tel:+33683901545
Co-founder - Release coordinator
Certification Committee Member
The Document Foundation

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Jean-Baptiste Faure-3 Jean-Baptiste Faure-3
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

In reply to this post by dennisroczek
Hi,

Le 04/09/2014 14:53, Dennis Roczek a écrit :
> [...]
> well redmine is adding it's own headers. so e.g. you can filter the
> mails by using a filter filtering on the x-redmine-project header tag
>
> X-Redmine-Project: nlc-de
>
> (this example is for the german language project on redmine)

Yes, you can use this header to arrange the mails in different folders.
But you still can't know who wrote the message without opening it.

Ok, there is also the header x-Redmine-Sender but I can't use it as
column header in Thunderbird.

Best regards.
JBF

--
Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Jean-Baptiste Faure-3 Jean-Baptiste Faure-3
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

In reply to this post by sophi
Hi Sophie,

Le 04/09/2014 14:33, Sophie Gautier a écrit :
[...]
> Lot of work is going on Redmine and even the marketing team is thinking
> about a setting a similar workflow, so it's not private or separate, if a
> team find it convenient to their worflow, it's only a tool.

I agree, the problem is not the use of Redmine, the problem is removing
the mailing-list and having a forum as unique discussion room.
Forum only is a no-go for me.

Best regards.
JBF

--
Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Jean-Francois Nifenecker Jean-Francois Nifenecker
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

Le 04/09/2014 20:12, Jean-Baptiste Faure a écrit :

> Hi Sophie,
>
> Le 04/09/2014 14:33, Sophie Gautier a écrit :
> [...]
>> Lot of work is going on Redmine and even the marketing team is thinking
>> about a setting a similar workflow, so it's not private or separate, if a
>> team find it convenient to their worflow, it's only a tool.
>
> I agree, the problem is not the use of Redmine, the problem is removing
> the mailing-list and having a forum as unique discussion room.
> Forum only is a no-go for me.
>

I share Jean-Baptiste thoughts: the mailing list is a great visibility
tool, redmine won't be. I too manage the mails using Thunderbird and I
also think fora to be a poor tool for exchanging (JBF has already stated
the drawbacks).

--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
sophi sophi
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

Hi,

Le 4 sept. 2014 21:40, "Jean-Francois Nifenecker" <
[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Le 04/09/2014 20:12, Jean-Baptiste Faure a écrit :
> > Hi Sophie,
> >
> > Le 04/09/2014 14:33, Sophie Gautier a écrit :
> > [...]
> >> Lot of work is going on Redmine and even the marketing team is thinking
> >> about a setting a similar workflow, so it's not private or separate,
if a

> >> team find it convenient to their worflow, it's only a tool.
> >
> > I agree, the problem is not the use of Redmine, the problem is removing
> > the mailing-list and having a forum as unique discussion room.
> > Forum only is a no-go for me.
> >
>
> I share Jean-Baptiste thoughts: the mailing list is a great visibility
> tool, redmine won't be. I too manage the mails using Thunderbird and I
> also think fora to be a poor tool for exchanging (JBF has already stated
> the drawbacks).

But the forum is only a part of the tool here, so if the whole workflow
works for the team, lets not brake it and instead try to improve it.
Cheers
Sophie

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
mirek2 mirek2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: IMPORTANT: Changing our workflow

In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste Faure-3
Hi JBF,

2014-09-04 14:24 GMT+02:00 Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]>:

> Le 04/09/2014 10:56, Mirek M. a écrit :
> [...]
>

> We don't want to forward things to the mailing list, though, because we
> > want the conversations to happen in one place and don't want people to
> > reply on the list.
>
> Hmm, looks like as if you wanted to keep discussions closed and private.
>
Ok, it will be easier to make decisions. Not sure that this way you can
> make decisions useful for LibreOffice and its users.
> What do you plan to make this forum discoverable ?
>

All the links on the LibreOffice website that link to the mailing list will
be changed to point to Redmine. Given that much of our workflow is moving
to Redmine, I don't think discovering it will be a problem.

Also, keep in mind that we're not the only team to use Redmine.


> > We're getting rid of the list.
> Not sure if design team is legitimate to decide that.
> What do you plan to keep the list archive?
>

Well, we have http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ .
I'm guessing that this archive doesn't depend on the existence of the
mailing list. If it does, we'll figure out a way to keep an archive --
worst-case scenario is keeping a dead mailing list, but I don't think that
will be necessary.

>
> [...]
>
> Instead of suggesting that I talk without knowing what I am talking
> about, you should try to answer to my arguments against the use of forums.
> Did you ever try a decent mail client? If you use a webmail, I can
> understand why you prefer the forums. But the problem is not the use of
> mailing-lists, it is how you manage your mails.
>

I tried multiple, actually, and still use Thunderbird for encrypted mails.
Always preferred GMail's interface, though, to be honest.

However, e-mail organization is not the issue with our current mailing
list. One of the main issues we have is the inability to upload attachments
(which are quite important for the design team). There are also many other
niceties that come with Redmine -- since much of our process is moving to
Redmine, a newcomer only has to create a single account and can follow the
team's activity in one central place. The fact that registration, posting,
and archives are all in one place is good for newcomers, as well as the
fact that they may follow forum threads and other things on Redmine
selectively.

Also, it's not just me that prefers Redmine (and I was initially skeptical
of it as well) -- the response to the move was positive on both the Redmine
thread we had and on our IRC chat, the consensus being to use it instead of
the list.

I have talked to Astron recently, though, and he echoed your concerns about
not seeing the author when watching list messages. It doesn't seem like
this will be fixed -- see http://www.redmine.org/issues/241 and the
attached patch. On the plus side, it seems like the fix (as described in
the patch) would be quite simple -- you could try to convince the Redmine
maintainers to apply it.

Also, it seems that it is possible to reply to forum posts via e-mail after
all. It doesn't seem like it's possible to create new threads by e-mail,
though.

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted