Improving printing UX

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
27 messages Options
12 « Prev
Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Improving printing UX

Hi Cor,

nice to see you as well - has been a long time. So I hope everything is
fine on your side :)

Am Montag, den 31.08.2015, 23:36 +0200 schrieb Cor Nouws:
> Hi Christoph :) - Nice to see you!
>
> Hi all,
>
> Christoph Noack wrote on 20-08-15 15:39:
[...]

> > Am Mittwoch, den 19.08.2015, 13:48 +0000 schrieb Katarina Behrens:
>
> > As far as I remember earlier discussions, it exists for two
> > "reasons":
> >    1. Change printer / document print options without actually
> > printing
> >       something (e.g. for getting access to printer trays in page
> > format
> >       settings for non-default printers).
>
> This still is valid. And IMO in the proper place, in the file menu.

Well, it would be excellent to have recent usage data for that -
otherwise one could check whether it can be moved to the print dialog
(think of something like "Save Settings" functionality). This was
already an idea during printerpullpages-times.

> > > Then, things like tdf#92676
> > > (https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92676)
> > > happen --
> > > user goes to printer settings, sets something up, saves and
> > > thinks
> > > this is how his document's going to be printed, but it ain't the
> > > case, because the document/page settings will be used instead.
>
> As far as I am aware, the most problems by far are indeed with the
> experienced conflict between Page style (size/orientation) and
> Printer
> settings.
>
> > > There's of course this "use only paper * from printer
> > > preferences"
> > > checkbox that makes it possible to override document settings
> > > with
> > > printer settings, but how many users know about it?
>
> So, ugly UX hack (sorry for even daring to suggest ;) ):
> In the File > Print dialog, on the first Tab (General) add below the
> list Printer en > details, a button: "..printer settings in stead of
> document/page settings" leading to the fourth tab (Options)
> This
>  - shows where to find the desired behavior (well, not really - see
> Christophs remark below)
>  - indicates that there are document/page settings.
> Then
>  - on the fourth tab (Options) ad a button: "learn more on page
> settings
> and influence on printing) or something like that.
>
> I know, I'll burn in hell for this ugly suggestion, but... it
> directly
> shows what is needed to solve majority of printing problems.

Well, at least on my computer (LiBO 4.4.5.2 Fedora), the "use printer
settings" changes the printer's page orientation, but it keeps the
document page orientation. Thus, the layout gets messed up.

The rest of the suggestions can help if people are willing to spend
time on understanding how printing works - but I assume most people do
expect that printing should "just work". Hence the proposals (below) to
connect the settings in the different locations in LibO.

> > [...]
>
> Would be fine for me.
> Mind this allows (via page styles) directing different pages of one
> file to different printers :)

Oh! I was rather thinking about selecting "the printer" for the
document and thus the different trays of this single printer.
Interesting new use case (just kidding *g*).

> >  * If possible, remove "File -- Print Preview...". Move required
> >    functionality (e.g. display facing pages) to the print preview
> > in
> >    the print dialog.
>
> Apart from missing details because the view is small, it totally
> misses
> the options that File > Print preview for Calc.
> So this is not going to work from that side.
> (Possibly there are also performance differences: current preview in
> File > Print <> File > Print Preview ?)

Since we now have all the GUI magic (layout manager), it should be
possible to solve the "view is too small" issue by enlarging the view
and optimizing the layout of the remaining dialog.

Regarding the missing details - that was meant by "move required
functionality" to the print dialog. What helps all the stuff in the
Print Preview, if (in many cases) the screen view won't match the
printed page?


> > === 2. Document Page Settings vs. Printer Page Preferences ===
> >
> > As the article by Microsoft suggests, we may not address all issues
> > related to page layout. Especially since LibO offers the capability
> > to
> > define numerous page layouts in the document - the printer
> > preferences
> > just offer one definition per print job.
> >
> > I miss the real needs by users,
>
> I guess direct to another tray with same orientation, but different
> type of paper..

[...]

> > Option #3: Re-arrange print dialog to directly contain and use
> > (e.g.)
> > page size and portrait settings.
> >  * Pro: Improved WYSIWYG
> >  * Con: Technical feasibility? Effort?
> >  * Details (examples for a UI control for page orientation):
> >     * If the document print range contains only "Portrait" pages,
> > pre
> >       -select "Portrait".
> >     * If the document print range contains only "Landscape" pages,
> > pre
> >       -select "Landscape".
> >     * If the document print range contains both Portrait and
> > Landscape
> >       pages, show "Automatic". (Document settings are used)
>
> Looks attractive. But indeed, may need much effort.
>
> >     * If the user changes the setting, the new setting is applied
> > to
> >       the whole print range (as if the user would have changed the
> >       document page layout, and its aligned with the printer
> > setting).
>
> This results in the same as tick "use only paper * from printer
> preferences".

As explained before (and maybe just trouble with the configuration of
my computer) - ticking the option doesn't work. The trick is to
harmonize document settings and printer settings (and maybe I have to
visualize that somehow).


> >       Per default, this setting is valid for the given print dialog
> >       session only. Per user demand, the setting can be applied to
> > the
> >       document settings (image something like a "make setting
> > sticky"
> >       appearing after the user changed the default selection).
>
> I would not support this.
> It may cause unexpected problems in the document.

Why? I shouldn't be the default. If applied, it is nothing different
than (batch-)changing the page orientation in "Format -- Page".

> And look at my UX-hack: that puts emphasis on showing how the
> printing
> actually works at the same moment that the user wants to change
> Portrait
> to Landscape.. What is the most faced problem.
>
> >     * Special case for Calc ("Print Selection"): "Automatic" will
> > pre
> >       -select the orientation that makes most sense for the given
> >       selection.
>
> Interesting..
> >     * Examples
> > [...]
>
> > === 3. Enable Proper Saving and Loading of Document Print Options
> > ===
> >
> > As previously explained, once the document print options are sorted
> > out, they should be properly saved and loaded.
>
> I miss an overview of (cant find easily) what isn't stored, and what
> settings influence it.

Besides the document I worked on during printerpullpages, there is no
documentation I'm aware of. For testing, I extracted the content of an
ODF document and look at the (I think it was...) settings.xml. This
file contains settings that match to the print options. The names give
clues what option is influenced.

Have a nice Sunday!
Christoph

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Improving printing UX

Christoph Noack wrote on 06-09-15 15:00:

> Am Montag, den 31.08.2015, 23:36 +0200 schrieb Cor Nouws:
>> Christoph Noack wrote on 20-08-15 15:39:

>>>> Then, things like tdf#92676
>>>> (https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92676)
>>>> happen --
>>>> user goes to printer settings, sets something up, saves and
>>>> thinks
>>>> this is how his document's going to be printed, but it ain't the
>>>> case, because the document/page settings will be used instead.
>>
>> As far as I am aware, the most problems by far are indeed with the
>> experienced conflict between Page style (size/orientation) and
>> Printer settings.
>>
>>>> There's of course this "use only paper * from printer
>>>> preferences" checkbox that makes it possible to override
>>>> document settings with printer settings, but how many
>>>> users know about it?
>>
>> So, ugly UX hack (sorry for even daring to suggest ;) ):
>> In the File > Print dialog, on the first Tab (General) add below the
>> list Printer en > details, a button: "..printer settings in stead of
>> document/page settings" leading to the fourth tab (Options)
>> This
>>  - shows where to find the desired behavior (well, not really - see
>> Christophs remark below)
>>  - indicates that there are document/page settings.
>> Then
>>  - on the fourth tab (Options) ad a button: "learn more on page
>> settings and influence on printing) or something like that.
>>
>> I know, I'll burn in hell for this ugly suggestion, but... it
>> directly shows what is needed to solve majority of printing
>> problems.
>
> Well, at least on my computer (LiBO 4.4.5.2 Fedora), the "use printer
> settings" changes the printer's page orientation, but it keeps the
> document page orientation. Thus, the layout gets messed up.

Indeed, that is the central problem is most cases where people have
trouble. And IMO it can only be solved by pointing people to that fact
and showing ways to resolve it right.
Hence my suggestion to have a link/button on the first tab of the
dialog, that jumps to the Options tab and gives warning/info.
(One could think of resolving this by starting messing the properties of
the page style, when someone choses a different orientation. But I think
you open the box of pandora then..)

> The rest of the suggestions can help if people are willing to spend
> time on understanding how printing works - but I assume most people do
> expect that printing should "just work".

In certain cases it simply does not 'just work'.

> expect that printing should "just work". Hence the proposals (below) to
> connect the settings in the different locations in LibO.
>
>>> [...] (remove file > Printer Settings and integrate in Format > Page)
>>
>> Would be fine for me.
>> Mind this allows (via page styles) directing different pages of one
>> file to different printers :)
>
> Oh! I was rather thinking about selecting "the printer" for the
> document and thus the different trays of this single printer.

One can set "the printer" in each page style of the active document. A
bit conflicting?. But it can be added "set printer (for all page styles)"

> Interesting new use case (just kidding *g*).
>
>>>  * If possible, remove "File -- Print Preview...". Move required
>>>    functionality (e.g. display facing pages) to the print preview
>>> in the print dialog.
>>
>> Apart from missing details because the view is small, it totally
>> misses the options that File > Print preview for Calc.
>> So this is not going to work from that side.
>> (Possibly there are also performance differences: current preview in
>> File > Print <> File > Print Preview ?)
>
> Since we now have all the GUI magic (layout manager), it should be
> possible to solve the "view is too small" issue by enlarging the view
> and optimizing the layout of the remaining dialog.
>
> Regarding the missing details - that was meant by "move required
> functionality" to the print dialog.

I did read that, but I guess it won't work for Calc. Try..

> What helps all the stuff in the
> Print Preview, if (in many cases) the screen view won't match the
> printed page?

Now Printe preview is really helpful with calc. But if 600 px or so are
needed for the print dialog, we have a problem. That you can solve by
hiding that part and ...
But the Print preview in Calc is used often without direct need for
printing. Just to see and adjust the lay out. And to prepare Export to PDF.

>>>       [about changing page orrientation in print dialog]
>>>      
>>>       Per default, this setting is valid for the given print dialog
>>>       session only. Per user demand, the setting can be applied to
>>>       the document settings (image something like a "make setting
>>>       sticky" appearing after the user changed the default selection).
>>
>> I would not support this.
>> It may cause unexpected problems in the document.
>
> Why? I shouldn't be the default. If applied, it is nothing different
> than (batch-)changing the page orientation in "Format -- Page".

What if there are more page styles, and people do need to check margins
and more settings? Then they are lost since they do not work on the
proper place in the file: Format Page..

So I prefer to focus on education / directing users to the proper
knowledge, place, rather then adding hacks that make the work flow and
places to set stuff (see the phases 1-5 in my previous mail) even more
look like spagetti. Just my 2#..

Cheers,
Cor

--
--
Cor Nouws
GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28  A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6
- vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org
- volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org
- The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Improving printing UX

Hi,

Cor Nouws wrote on 13-09-15 23:45:
> Christoph Noack wrote on 06-09-15 15:00:
>
>> Am Montag, den 31.08.2015, 23:36 +0200 schrieb Cor Nouws:

>>> So, ugly UX hack (sorry for even daring to suggest ;) ):
>>> In the File > Print dialog, on the first Tab (General) add below the
>>> list Printer en > details, a button: "..printer settings in stead of
>>> document/page settings" leading to the fourth tab (Options)
>>> This
>>>  - shows where to find the desired behavior (well, not really - see
>>> Christophs remark below)
>>>  - indicates that there are document/page settings.
>>> Then
>>>  - on the fourth tab (Options) ad a button: "learn more on page
>>> settings and influence on printing) or something like that.

Alternative: when people hit Printer properties show a pup-up with the
e.g. following text:

" Mind that when setting paper orientation, this in general only works
properly if paper orientation is set in the page style (via Format >
Page). You may chose to override this. Then also for this print the
check "use only paper size from printer settings" is set (see the tab
Option). Find more in the Help on subject XYZ.
  [ ]  don't show this warning again.  "


>>>> [...] (remove file > Printer Settings and integrate in Format > Page)
>>>
>>> Would be fine for me.
>>> Mind this allows (via page styles) directing different pages of one
>>> file to different printers :)
>>
>> Oh! I was rather thinking about selecting "the printer" for the
>> document and thus the different trays of this single printer.
>
> One can set "the printer" in each page style of the active document. A
> bit conflicting?. But it can be added "set printer (for all page styles)"

I still like this one, since it brings all the printer settings at the
same place.

>>>>       [about changing page orrientation in print dialog]
>>>>      
>>>>       Per default, this setting is valid for the given print dialog
>>>>       session only. Per user demand, the setting can be applied to
>>>>       the document settings (image something like a "make setting
>>>>       sticky" appearing after the user changed the default selection).
>>>
>>> I would not support this.
>>> It may cause unexpected problems in the document.
>>
>> Why? I shouldn't be the default. If applied, it is nothing different
>> than (batch-)changing the page orientation in "Format -- Page".
>
> What if there are more page styles, and people do need to check margins
> and more settings? Then they are lost since they do not work on the
> proper place in the file: Format Page..

If chosen, show a pup-up with the e.g. following text:

" Mind that when setting paper orientation here, this changes the paper
orientation in all the page styles of the document (via Format > Page).
You may chose to check lay out first. Find more in the Help on subject XYZ.
[ ] don't show this warning again. "

> So I prefer to focus on education / directing users to the proper
> knowledge, place, rather then adding hacks that make the work flow and
> places to set stuff (see the phases 1-5 in my previous mail) even more
> look like spagetti. Just my 2#..

Well said ;)


--
Cor Nouws
GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28  A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6
- vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org
- volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org
- The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Jean-Francois Nifenecker Jean-Francois Nifenecker
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Improving printing UX

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Hi!

I'm jumping in the bandwagon, just for one note:

Le 13/09/2015 23:45, Cor Nouws a écrit :
>
> One can set "the printer" in each page style of the active document. A
> bit conflicting?. But it can be added "set printer (for all page styles)"

What if|when page styles get the same hierarchical inheritance the
paragraph style have got for a long time? This would be much appreciated :)

>
> What if there are more page styles, and people do need to check margins
> and more settings? Then they are lost since they do not work on the
> proper place in the file: Format Page..
>
> So I prefer to focus on education / directing users to the proper
> knowledge, place, rather then adding hacks that make the work flow and
> places to set stuff (see the phases 1-5 in my previous mail) even more
> look like spagetti. Just my 2#..

+1

--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Improving printing UX

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Some more input:

Cor Nouws wrote on 13-09-15 23:45:
>>>> Katarina Behrens wrote on 19-08-15 15:48:

>>> As far as I am aware, the most problems by far are indeed with the
>>> experienced conflict between Page style (size/orientation) and
>>> Printer settings.
>>>
>>>>> There's of course this "use only paper * from printer
>>>>> preferences" checkbox that makes it possible to override
>>>>> document settings with printer settings, but how many
>>>>> users know about it?
So I cam

So I came across:

65205) https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65205
"Print Component fails to recognize 'Tabloid' as 11x17, uses Letter instead"

The user makes the correct setting, but since the page is named
"Tabloid" in LibreOffice and "11 x 17" in the printers, LibreOffice
prints it to Letter, unless "Use only paper size from printer
preferences" is set.
This looks as something that could be avoided?
(So this is the other way round then other trouble..)

79077) https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79077
"No option to make File > Print > Options > "Use only paper size from
printer preferences" stick"

Maybe that could be done at document level.

94343)  https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94343
Move "Use only paper size from printer preferences" to print properties
dialog.

Cheers,
Cor

--
Cor Nouws
GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28  A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6
- vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org
- volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org
- The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Improving printing UX

In reply to this post by Jean-Francois Nifenecker
Hi all,

Note from the LibreOfficeiConference @DOKK1, Aarhus:

Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote on 15-09-15 19:08:

> Le 13/09/2015 23:45, Cor Nouws a écrit :
>>
>> One can set "the printer" in each page style of the active document. A
>> bit conflicting?. But it can be added "set printer (for all page styles)"
>
> What if|when page styles get the same hierarchical inheritance the
> paragraph style have got for a long time? This would be much appreciated :)


Bubli, Heiko & me discussed this and we agreed on three items:

1. Move File > Printer set up to Format Page, tab Page
  It would be good make clear that usually it makes sense to have one
  printer for all page styles in the document.
  So maybe a tick "[ ] For all pages in this document" would be good?
  (Inheritance as JF suggests is nice too, but possibly less easy..)

2. Move options "use only paper size from printer settings"
  and "use only paper orientation from printer settings"
  from the tab Options to Printer properties dialog, where
  page size and orientation are set.

3. Check from all options from Tools > Options > (Module) Print
  if it is useful to have them at module level or rather
  at document level (in File > Print > Options)
  (Bubli and me had a quick look and there were at least some odd
  settings.)

Bubli, when you have time, could you take a look at 1 and 2?
Someone willing to extensively test and report on #3?


--
Cor Nouws
GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28  A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6
- vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org
- volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org
- The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Improving printing UX

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Additional,

Cor Nouws wrote on 18-09-15 20:05:

> So I came across:
>
> 65205) https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65205
> "Print Component fails to recognize 'Tabloid' as 11x17, uses Letter instead"
>
> The user makes the correct setting, but since the page is named
> "Tabloid" in LibreOffice and "11 x 17" in the printers, LibreOffice
> prints it to Letter, unless "Use only paper size from printer
> preferences" is set.
> This looks as something that could be avoided?

Just an issue to be fixed, I think.

> 79077) https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79077
> "No option to make File > Print > Options > "Use only paper size from
> printer preferences" stick"
>
> Maybe that could be done at document level.

Opinions?

> 94343)  https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94343
> Move "Use only paper size from printer preferences" to print properties
> dialog.

Is what we decided in Aarhus.


--
Cor Nouws
GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28  A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6
- vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org
- volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org
- The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

12 « Prev