Internationalization

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sophi sophi
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Internationalization

Hi all,

I would like to just add some thoughts about internationalization (i18n
is shorter) of the documentation.

Some native-lang groups will produce its own documentation, some others
will translate what is available in en_US language or other languages,
and sometime it will be both.

For the FR project, I'm currently testing some tools for the translation
of the OOoAuthors Guides.

Translating on the wiki is horrible, I've translated two guides and they
are now completely obsolete and not in sync with the rest so it's a
waste of time finally.

With the .odt files we can use translating tools, glossaries and
translation memory. I'm testing WordForge as the local translation tool
currently (it manages odt -> xliff -> odt), and I think also to use
Pootle to organize the workflow (you can assign roles and tasks, you
know the amount of work is remaining, it's easy to check for errors like
missing translation, double punctuation or missing caps, extra space,
etc, you can work on line or off line and it handles xliff files).

Would you be interested by this workflow at an i18n level, or do I go on
only with the FR group here? This question because it needs more testing
(will do after the 3.3 is out), and some styles (the low level ones it
seems) will have to be adapted in the .odt file for conversion purpose
to .xlf files. So it might be interesting to adapt it to your current
workflow and requirements too.

Kind regards
Sophie


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Internationalization

Hi Sophie, :-)

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 15:10, Sophie Gautier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I would like to just add some thoughts about internationalization (i18n is
> shorter) of the documentation.
>
> Some native-lang groups will produce its own documentation, some others will
> translate what is available in en_US language or other languages, and
> sometime it will be both.
>
> For the FR project, I'm currently testing some tools for the translation of
> the OOoAuthors Guides.
>
> Translating on the wiki is horrible, I've translated two guides and they are
> now completely obsolete and not in sync with the rest so it's a waste of
> time finally.
>
> With the .odt files we can use translating tools, glossaries and translation
> memory. I'm testing WordForge as the local translation tool currently (it
> manages odt -> xliff -> odt), and I think also to use Pootle to organize the
> workflow (you can assign roles and tasks, you know the amount of work is
> remaining, it's easy to check for errors like missing translation, double
> punctuation or missing caps, extra space, etc, you can work on line or off
> line and it handles xliff files).
>
> Would you be interested by this workflow at an i18n level, or do I go on
> only with the FR group here? This question because it needs more testing
> (will do after the 3.3 is out), and some styles (the low level ones it
> seems) will have to be adapted in the .odt file for conversion purpose to
> .xlf files. So it might be interesting to adapt it to your current workflow
> and requirements too.

My 2 cents would be that it would be good to keep us posted. At the
present time, there is not too much consensus on workflow yet in the
documentation project... We're working on it, though. About the only
thing that regular contributors seem to agree about ATM is that
ODF/ODT is the best central format, with other formats for end users
being generated from ODT.

I'm not too sure precisely how we can work i18n into our own
workflow... If you have specific suggestions then I'd be interested to
hear.

One package I'm currently interested in is Alfresco... I plan to
experiment with it between Christmas and New Year... Maybe there is a
possibility with this tool that we *could* design a more integrated
workflow with interested i18n teams... But this is pure conjecture for
the moment - I need to see it working first.

David Nelson

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sophi sophi
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Re: Internationalization

Hi David,
On 17/12/2010 11:01, David Nelson wrote:

> Hi Sophie, :-)
>
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 15:10, Sophie Gautier<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would like to just add some thoughts about internationalization (i18n is
>> shorter) of the documentation.
>>
>> Some native-lang groups will produce its own documentation, some others will
>> translate what is available in en_US language or other languages, and
>> sometime it will be both.
>>
>> For the FR project, I'm currently testing some tools for the translation of
>> the OOoAuthors Guides.
>>
>> Translating on the wiki is horrible, I've translated two guides and they are
>> now completely obsolete and not in sync with the rest so it's a waste of
>> time finally.
>>
>> With the .odt files we can use translating tools, glossaries and translation
>> memory. I'm testing WordForge as the local translation tool currently (it
>> manages odt ->  xliff ->  odt), and I think also to use Pootle to organize the
>> workflow (you can assign roles and tasks, you know the amount of work is
>> remaining, it's easy to check for errors like missing translation, double
>> punctuation or missing caps, extra space, etc, you can work on line or off
>> line and it handles xliff files).
>>
>> Would you be interested by this workflow at an i18n level, or do I go on
>> only with the FR group here? This question because it needs more testing
>> (will do after the 3.3 is out), and some styles (the low level ones it
>> seems) will have to be adapted in the .odt file for conversion purpose to
>> .xlf files. So it might be interesting to adapt it to your current workflow
>> and requirements too.
>
> My 2 cents would be that it would be good to keep us posted. At the
> present time, there is not too much consensus on workflow yet in the
> documentation project... We're working on it, though. About the only
> thing that regular contributors seem to agree about ATM is that
> ODF/ODT is the best central format, with other formats for end users
> being generated from ODT.
>
> I'm not too sure precisely how we can work i18n into our own
> workflow... If you have specific suggestions then I'd be interested to
> hear.
>
> One package I'm currently interested in is Alfresco... I plan to
> experiment with it between Christmas and New Year... Maybe there is a
> possibility with this tool that we *could* design a more integrated
> workflow with interested i18n teams... But this is pure conjecture for
> the moment - I need to see it working first.

Ok, so I go on on my side and will come back later with a documented
process for those who want to use it.
I've used Alfresco at my work latst year, it  is a great tool to manage
files. You'll need a plugin to work within LibO
http://forge.alfresco.com/projects/ooo-plugin/

Kind regards
Sophie

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Internationalization

Hi Sophie, :-)

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 16:14, Sophie Gautier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ok, so I go on on my side and will come back later with a documented process
> for those who want to use it.
> I've used Alfresco at my work latst year, it  is a great tool to manage
> files. You'll need a plugin to work within LibO
> http://forge.alfresco.com/projects/ooo-plugin/

So do you see any potential for some i18n/US docs integration for
interested teams?

David Nelson

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Internationalization

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 6:09 PM, David Nelson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Sophie, :-)
>
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 16:14, Sophie Gautier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Ok, so I go on on my side and will come back later with a documented process
>> for those who want to use it.
>> I've used Alfresco at my work latst year, it  is a great tool to manage
>> files. You'll need a plugin to work within LibO
>> http://forge.alfresco.com/projects/ooo-plugin/
>
> So do you see any potential for some i18n/US docs integration for
> interested teams?
>
> David Nelson

I mentioned it before, but I think it is worth stating again, the
integration between Alfresco and the planned Drupal tooling should be
very straight forward as there has been a lot of coordination between
the projects. If we are looking at Alfresco seriously it could also be
used to automatically publish the finished documents once approved on
the Drupal site.

I am very interested in hearing how it copes with internationalisation
of documents and handling revisions and change approvals across
languages.

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sophi sophi
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Re: Internationalization

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Hi David,
On 17/12/2010 11:39, David Nelson wrote:

> Hi Sophie, :-)
>
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 16:14, Sophie Gautier<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Ok, so I go on on my side and will come back later with a documented process
>> for those who want to use it.
>> I've used Alfresco at my work latst year, it  is a great tool to manage
>> files. You'll need a plugin to work within LibO
>> http://forge.alfresco.com/projects/ooo-plugin/
>
> So do you see any potential for some i18n/US docs integration for
> interested teams?

Alfresco doesn't handle xliff files and doesn't propose any l10n
services. So it mays not serve for i18n or only to publish the final
.odt conversion once the work done.

Kind regards
Sophie

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Internationalization

Hi Sophie, :-)

On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 13:19, Sophie Gautier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Alfresco doesn't handle xliff files and doesn't propose any l10n services.
> So it mays not serve for i18n or only to publish the final .odt conversion
> once the work done.

So as someone who has used it before, what would your comments be on
Alfresco as a tool for the US English documentation team?

David Nelson

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sophi sophi
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Re: Internationalization

On 18/12/2010 08:42, David Nelson wrote:
> Hi Sophie, :-)
>
> On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 13:19, Sophie Gautier<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Alfresco doesn't handle xliff files and doesn't propose any l10n services.
>> So it mays not serve for i18n or only to publish the final .odt conversion
>> once the work done.
>
> So as someone who has used it before, what would your comments be on
> Alfresco as a tool for the US English documentation team?

Yes I think so, it's easy to use and should cover almost all your needs.
I, for myself, prefer version control systems (bad habit, even working
with Eyrolles, my publisher, I do not use CMS here ;), but that might be
to technical for authors.
At least, if I remember well, that was one of the reasons, Jean and her
team didn't like the OOo workflow and settled OOoAuthors, where people
like Alex or me did like it.
So Alfresco should definitely be better for the en_US workflow.

Kind regards
Sophie

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vpanter vpanter
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Re: Internationalization

In reply to this post by sophi
Hello Sophie,

Thanks for your input on i18n issues

Op 17/12/2010 8:10, Sophie Gautier schreef:

> Hi all,
>
> I would like to just add some thoughts about internationalization
> (i18n is shorter) of the documentation.
>
> Some native-lang groups will produce its own documentation, some
> others will translate what is available in en_US language or other
> languages, and sometime it will be both.
>
> For the FR project, I'm currently testing some tools for the
> translation of the OOoAuthors Guides.
>
> Translating on the wiki is horrible, I've translated two guides and
> they are now completely obsolete and not in sync with the rest so it's
> a waste of time finally.
Fully agree
>
> With the .odt files we can use translating tools, glossaries and
> translation memory. I'm testing WordForge as the local translation
> tool currently (it manages odt -> xliff -> odt), and I think also to
> use Pootle to organize the workflow (you can assign roles and tasks,
> you know the amount of work is remaining, it's easy to check for
> errors like missing translation, double punctuation or missing caps,
> extra space, etc, you can work on line or off line and it handles
> xliff files).
I would love to use translating tools, as for now, we have not used any
in the Dutch speaking team
>
> Would you be interested by this workflow at an i18n level, or do I go
> on only with the FR group here? This question because it needs more
> testing (will do after the 3.3 is out), and some styles (the low level
> ones it seems) will have to be adapted in the .odt file for conversion
> purpose to .xlf files. So it might be interesting to adapt it to your
> current workflow and requirements too.
Please keep us updated on your progress, we will give feedback from
Dutch team
>
> Kind regards
> Sophie
>
>
Best regards

--
Leo Moons
LibreOffice/nl

Nous sommes condamnés à être libres


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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Internationalization

In reply to this post by sophi
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Sophie Gautier
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 18/12/2010 08:42, David Nelson wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sophie, :-)
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 13:19, Sophie Gautier<[hidden email]>
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Alfresco doesn't handle xliff files and doesn't propose any l10n
>>> services.
>>> So it mays not serve for i18n or only to publish the final .odt
>>> conversion
>>> once the work done.
>>
>> So as someone who has used it before, what would your comments be on
>> Alfresco as a tool for the US English documentation team?
>
> Yes I think so, it's easy to use and should cover almost all your needs.
> I, for myself, prefer version control systems (bad habit, even working with
> Eyrolles, my publisher, I do not use CMS here ;), but that might be to
> technical for authors.
> At least, if I remember well, that was one of the reasons, Jean and her team
> didn't like the OOo workflow and settled OOoAuthors, where people like Alex
> or me did like it.
> So Alfresco should definitely be better for the en_US workflow.

I have had a bit of a brainstorm here. It will take a few days to put
together the idea proposal so people understand it, but I should have
it out by boxing day. It deals with documentation development across
languages, feeding back into an approval system per language.

Mike Wheatland

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Internationalization

Hi, :-)

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 09:36, Michael Wheatland
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have had a bit of a brainstorm here. It will take a few days to put
> together the idea proposal so people understand it, but I should have
> it out by boxing day. It deals with documentation development across
> languages, feeding back into an approval system per language.

That will be interesting to read. But, hopefully, it will be
concretely implementable in a fairly short time. Also, it might want
to take the following into consideration:

Sophie explained to me that, typically, in Open Source projects,
English is usually the "root" language for development and all other
processes around the core development, and that localization tends to
simply be a process of translating all that has been produced in
English.

But, she explained, in LibreOffice, there is a drive towards giving
each NL project independence in producing its own content, in the form
it thinks is best - even though an English version of a content may be
offered as a possible working base, if the NL project wants to adopt a
"translation-based" approach rather than an "own-creation" approach.

You can see this in the SilverStripe website, on which each NL project
gets a sub-site that it's free to structure and people with content as
it sees fit. For example, the French or German NL projects are not in
any way obliged to have a site structure that is a "clone" of the
English structure. They might adopt a quite different IA for
communicating with their user base and servicing its needs.

(I must say that I rather like these ideas.)

So we'd be looking for a system that caters to this autonomy.

HTH.

P.S. When we're talking about NL, we're talking about *languages* not
"national/political" boundaries.

David Nelson

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Internationalization

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 1:48 PM, David Nelson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi, :-)
>
> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 09:36, Michael Wheatland
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have had a bit of a brainstorm here. It will take a few days to put
>> together the idea proposal so people understand it, but I should have
>> it out by boxing day. It deals with documentation development across
>> languages, feeding back into an approval system per language.
>
> That will be interesting to read. But, hopefully, it will be
> concretely implementable in a fairly short time. Also, it might want
> to take the following into consideration:
>
> Sophie explained to me that, typically, in Open Source projects,
> English is usually the "root" language for development and all other
> processes around the core development, and that localization tends to
> simply be a process of translating all that has been produced in
> English.
>
> But, she explained, in LibreOffice, there is a drive towards giving
> each NL project independence in producing its own content, in the form
> it thinks is best - even though an English version of a content may be
> offered as a possible working base, if the NL project wants to adopt a
> "translation-based" approach rather than an "own-creation" approach.
>
> You can see this in the SilverStripe website, on which each NL project
> gets a sub-site that it's free to structure and people with content as
> it sees fit. For example, the French or German NL projects are not in
> any way obliged to have a site structure that is a "clone" of the
> English structure. They might adopt a quite different IA for
> communicating with their user base and servicing its needs.
>
> (I must say that I rather like these ideas.)
>
> So we'd be looking for a system that caters to this autonomy.
>
> HTH.
>
> P.S. When we're talking about NL, we're talking about *languages* not
> "national/political" boundaries.
>
> David Nelson

I don't want to go into too much detail until the proposal has been
developed fully, as it may give people the wrong idea, as has happened
here before, but let me assure you that this idea is based solely on
that idea whilst maintaining the benefits of the workflow that Jean
proposed early on in the process for the English documents.

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Internationalization

Hi Michael, :-)

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 18:43, Michael Wheatland
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't want to go into too much detail until the proposal has been
> developed fully, as it may give people the wrong idea, as has happened
> here before, but let me assure you that this idea is based solely on
> that idea whilst maintaining the benefits of the workflow that Jean
> proposed early on in the process for the English documents.

That's great. I'll be looking forward to reading it, as I'm sure we
all will, and will give constructive feedback.

David Nelson

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Internationalization

In reply to this post by davidnelson
On 12/22/2010 05:18 AM, David Nelson wrote:

> P.S. When we're talking about NL, we're talking about *languages* not
> "national/political" boundaries.

This applies to localization and documentation, while marketing is by
geography, as it doesn't make sense - for instance - to put together
Spain with Mexico, or US and UK.

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sophi sophi
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Re: Internationalization

In reply to this post by vpanter
Hi Leo,
On 22/12/2010 02:33, Leo Moons wrote:

> Hello Sophie,
>
> Thanks for your input on i18n issues
>
> Op 17/12/2010 8:10, Sophie Gautier schreef:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would like to just add some thoughts about internationalization
>> (i18n is shorter) of the documentation.
>>
>> Some native-lang groups will produce its own documentation, some
>> others will translate what is available in en_US language or other
>> languages, and sometime it will be both.
>>
>> For the FR project, I'm currently testing some tools for the
>> translation of the OOoAuthors Guides.
>>
>> Translating on the wiki is horrible, I've translated two guides and
>> they are now completely obsolete and not in sync with the rest so it's
>> a waste of time finally.
> Fully agree
>>
>> With the .odt files we can use translating tools, glossaries and
>> translation memory. I'm testing WordForge as the local translation
>> tool currently (it manages odt -> xliff -> odt), and I think also to
>> use Pootle to organize the workflow (you can assign roles and tasks,
>> you know the amount of work is remaining, it's easy to check for
>> errors like missing translation, double punctuation or missing caps,
>> extra space, etc, you can work on line or off line and it handles
>> xliff files).
> I would love to use translating tools, as for now, we have not used any
> in the Dutch speaking team

Yes and I really would like to be able to provide something that ease
the work in the 3 languages at an equal level, so it would be easier to
provide some "official" documentation as it was requested by some
Belgian administrations.
>>
>> Would you be interested by this workflow at an i18n level, or do I go
>> on only with the FR group here? This question because it needs more
>> testing (will do after the 3.3 is out), and some styles (the low level
>> ones it seems) will have to be adapted in the .odt file for conversion
>> purpose to .xlf files. So it might be interesting to adapt it to your
>> current workflow and requirements too.
> Please keep us updated on your progress, we will give feedback from
> Dutch team

Thank you for your support. I'll work on this next week and keep you update.

Kind regards
Sophie

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