Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts

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Robert M Campbell Robert M Campbell
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Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts

I was just curious, when does LibreOffice choose to bundle fonts? When is there a good reason to bundle them?

I ask this because LibreOffice has a Burmese font, but no Thai, Lao, or Khmer fonts that I can tell. Droid Sans includes Thai support. Khmer OS provides Khmer support.

And SIL's Mittaphab and Lao Government's Phetsarath OT are possible options for Lao, but the most widely used Lao font in Laos is Saysettha Lao. The government wants everyone to use Phetsarath OT (which is their standard). Windows 8 ships with Dok Champa, which I know little about... And SIL is working on a graphite font Mittaphap. I know Mittaphap is OFL, Phetsarath OT has no license (public domain?), so those are fair open options. Saysettha is not open source, nor is Dok Champa, to my understanding.

But the real question is whether or not LibreOffice will want to include fonts for language coverage in the first place?

Possible benefits I see:
  • Consistent look and feel for users of those languages across platforms and systems
  • Provides native access for people without reliable Internet (sometimes a problem in Laos)
Possible problems I see:
  • Makes LibreOffice bigger
  • Could get out of hand if everyone wants to submit their favorite font
  • People might complain because it doesn't have their favorite Saysettha font
What do you all think?

--
Respectfully,

Robert M Campbell
IT Specialist for ADRA Laos & Open Source Advocate
Lao Cell: +856 207 616 7299
US Phone: +1 270 681 0399
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

Visit ADRA Lao's Facebook Page at facebook.com/ADRALaos

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Martin Hollmichel-2 Martin Hollmichel-2
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Re: Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts

On 25/11/13 13:04, Robert M Campbell wrote:
> Phetsarath OT has no license (public domain?),
looking into the font file reveals:

Phetsarath OT - font for the Laotian language of Laos.
Copyright 2005 ICT project for development of STEA/UNDP of Lao PDR.

This font is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it
under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License as published by
the Free Software Foundation; either version 2.1 of the License, or (at
your option) any later version.

This library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.? See the GNU Lesser
General Public License for more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public License
along with this font; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation,
Inc., 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301  USA or
visit http://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl.html

greetings,

Martin

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Samuel Mehrbrodt-2 Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
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Re: Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts

In reply to this post by Robert M Campbell
Hi Robert,

I think there is no formal process when to include a new font. If it makes sense, it's ok. Fonts are not that big.
I would just create a patch which adds the fonts you need and publish it on gerrit.libreoffice.org.

Then there is still time to discuss this (otherwise this might get lost).

Thanks
Samuel

Am 25.11.2013 13:04, schrieb Robert M Campbell:
I was just curious, when does LibreOffice choose to bundle fonts? When is there a good reason to bundle them?

I ask this because LibreOffice has a Burmese font, but no Thai, Lao, or Khmer fonts that I can tell. Droid Sans includes Thai support. Khmer OS provides Khmer support.

And SIL's Mittaphab and Lao Government's Phetsarath OT are possible options for Lao, but the most widely used Lao font in Laos is Saysettha Lao. The government wants everyone to use Phetsarath OT (which is their standard). Windows 8 ships with Dok Champa, which I know little about... And SIL is working on a graphite font Mittaphap. I know Mittaphap is OFL, Phetsarath OT has no license (public domain?), so those are fair open options. Saysettha is not open source, nor is Dok Champa, to my understanding.

But the real question is whether or not LibreOffice will want to include fonts for language coverage in the first place?

Possible benefits I see:
  • Consistent look and feel for users of those languages across platforms and systems
  • Provides native access for people without reliable Internet (sometimes a problem in Laos)
Possible problems I see:
  • Makes LibreOffice bigger
  • Could get out of hand if everyone wants to submit their favorite font
  • People might complain because it doesn't have their favorite Saysettha font
What do you all think?

--
Respectfully,

Robert M Campbell
IT Specialist for ADRA Laos & Open Source Advocate
Lao Cell: +856 207 616 7299
US Phone: +1 270 681 0399
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

Visit ADRA Lao's Facebook Page at facebook.com/ADRALaos


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Khaled Hosny Khaled Hosny
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Re: Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts

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Robert M Campbell Robert M Campbell
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Re: Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts


On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Khaled Hosny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 10:10:26AM +0100, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> I think there is no formal process when to include a new font. If it makes
> sense, it's ok. Fonts are not that big.

Fonts CAN be that big :) Look at TeX Live, of its 3.5 GB install, 1.4 GB
are fonts.

My hope is to not add more than a few KB per font, if at all possible. Font language support shouldn't be 'include 9 million glyphs of various artistic types and what-not'. We just need basic support for Thai, Khmer, and Lao, so the simpler / smaller, the better. If they want some other font, they should install it IMHO. Hopefully, someday, there'll be a nice all language font that isn't too big. Until then...

Another Q - where exactly am I patching? When I helped with the ICU update, a archive was added to the web server and the download.list was used. In that case, the only patch would be for the download.list. Or, should we have a font contribution subfolder/submodule that contains each font in the master that contains all of the embedded fonts? That way in review process, people can look at the font and determine if it's a good idea to add and is open and etc...

-Robert

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Khaled Hosny Khaled Hosny
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Re: Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts

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Robert M Campbell Robert M Campbell
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Re: Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts

On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Khaled Hosny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 06:34:59PM +0700, Robert M Campbell wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Khaled Hosny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My hope is to not add more than a few KB per font, if at all possible. Font
> language support shouldn't be 'include 9 million glyphs of various artistic
> types and what-not'. We just need basic support for Thai, Khmer, and Lao,
> so the simpler / smaller, the better. If they want some other font, they
> should install it IMHO. Hopefully, someday, there'll be a nice all language
> font that isn't too big. Until then...
>
> Another Q - where exactly am I patching? When I helped with the ICU update,
> a archive was added to the web server and the download.list was used. In
> that case, the only patch would be for the download.list. Or, should we
> have a font contribution subfolder/submodule that contains each font in the
> master that contains all of the embedded fonts? That way in review process,
> people can look at the font and determine if it's a good idea to add and is
> open and etc...

Check external/more_fonts/*

Regards,
Khaled

I created these files, but still will need someone to upload the files to the web folder... Check out https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72079

I'll commit to gerrit once they are online (so I point to the right url in the download.lst)...

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Robert M Campbell Robert M Campbell
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Re: Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts

Also, I wonder if these languages should set these fonts as the default? If so, can make that change as well...

--
Respectfully,

Robert M Campbell
IT Specialist for ADRA Laos & Open Source Advocate
Lao Cell: +856 207 616 7299
US Phone: +1 270 681 0399
[hidden email]

Visit ADRA Lao's Facebook Page at facebook.com/ADRALaos



On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 12:51 AM, Robert M Campbell <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Khaled Hosny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 06:34:59PM +0700, Robert M Campbell wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Khaled Hosny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My hope is to not add more than a few KB per font, if at all possible. Font
> language support shouldn't be 'include 9 million glyphs of various artistic
> types and what-not'. We just need basic support for Thai, Khmer, and Lao,
> so the simpler / smaller, the better. If they want some other font, they
> should install it IMHO. Hopefully, someday, there'll be a nice all language
> font that isn't too big. Until then...
>
> Another Q - where exactly am I patching? When I helped with the ICU update,
> a archive was added to the web server and the download.list was used. In
> that case, the only patch would be for the download.list. Or, should we
> have a font contribution subfolder/submodule that contains each font in the
> master that contains all of the embedded fonts? That way in review process,
> people can look at the font and determine if it's a good idea to add and is
> open and etc...

Check external/more_fonts/*

Regards,
Khaled

I created these files, but still will need someone to upload the files to the web folder... Check out https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72079

I'll commit to gerrit once they are online (so I point to the right url in the download.lst)...


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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts

In reply to this post by Khaled Hosny


Khaled Hosny  wrote:
>> Fonts are not that big.

>Fonts CAN be that big :) Look at TeX Live, of its 3.5 GB install, 1.4 GB are fonts.

Pan Unicode fonts are the largest fonts in a font directory.
Code2000 is 4.8 MB in size.
Code2002 is 4.3 MB in size
Unifont-5.1-20080907.ttf is 16.3 MB in size.

I'll grant, that 41.6 MB, sursong.ttf is an exception.

Point is, there are roughly 250 writing systems, and, until LibreOffice ships with a UI for at least the major language used by each of those writing systems, the size of the fonts is not an issue.   When LibreOffice provides a UI for 250 languages, I suspect that there will be far greater issues than the amount of space the fonts take up.  

Furthermore, a _good_ pan-unicode font will solve space issues, related to fonts.  There are, unfortunately, none that are distributed under an open source license that are also pretty.  :(*    Maybe, when a user can select one of 250 different languages for the UI, there will be a pretty pan-unicode font.

jonathon
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Khaled Hosny Khaled Hosny
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Re: Lao / Thai / Khmer Bundled Fonts

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