LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

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mirek2 mirek2
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LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

Hi everyone,
I've had a conversation with Alexander Wilms on IRC today and we've decided
that it would be productive if the whole Design team could meet on the IRC
to discuss relevant LibreOffice UI/design topics. We could start with the
color picker this week, as it's been a long-discussed issue and it's on the
list of GSoC projects. I've started a whiteboard for the issue [1] -- feel
free to add your mockups and proposals. If you have other topics for
discussion, bring them up.
I've also started a Doodle poll [2] to determine when everyone would have
time for the IRC chat, so please head over there to check the times you'd
be available (they're in GMT, as people on this list come from different
time zones). It starts with this Thursday, so that people have enough time
to vote and to think about the topic.

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_picker
[2] http://www.doodle.com/w4g3uwyxcwc52itp

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

Hi Mirek,

> I've had a conversation with Alexander Wilms on IRC today and we've decided
> that it would be productive if the whole Design team could meet on the IRC
> to discuss relevant LibreOffice UI/design topics. We could start with the

Actually, it would be a great idea if we could meet on IRC on a
weekly/bi-weekly basis. Maybe name it something like "Let's talk
design." (which conveniently abbreviates to "Ltd.") and set (a)
topic(s) before we meet. How do you feel about that?

Secondly, there already is a Whiteboard on the topic that Christoph
started some time ago with many pointers to bugs etc – see [1]. I
guess we should use that.

Thirdly, often times we miss the basis for what we do here. With
everyone going into the direction of touch-friendliness here, it's
easy to steer LibreOffice into even larger inconsistency. What we
need, clearly is some sort of HIG, else we might actually make
LibreOffice worse.
This is not to say that we need a completely new HIG, but we need to
either copy/paste the pieces we like from others (it still need s to
be conherent) or need to adapt a pre-existing one that covers what we
need.


Astron.

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

2012/3/19 Stefan Knorr (Astron) <[hidden email]>

> Hi Mirek,
>
> > I've had a conversation with Alexander Wilms on IRC today and we've
> decided
> > that it would be productive if the whole Design team could meet on the
> IRC
> > to discuss relevant LibreOffice UI/design topics. We could start with the
>
> Actually, it would be a great idea if we could meet on IRC on a
> weekly/bi-weekly basis. Maybe name it something like "Let's talk
> design." (which conveniently abbreviates to "Ltd.") and set (a)
> topic(s) before we meet. How do you feel about that?
>

I agree.
The Gnome design team works on IRC only, and they're very productive.
Should I create another Doodle poll that's more generic and includes all
the days of the week? Is there a way to duplicate a poll on Doodle or do I
have to write in the time intervals again?

>
> Secondly, there already is a Whiteboard on the topic that Christoph
> started some time ago with many pointers to bugs etc – see [1]. I
> guess we should use that.
>

OK.
The page looks like it needs a bit of clean-up, though -- for example, why
are suggestions listed under "Current state", and what is the point of
"Further information"?

>
> Thirdly, often times we miss the basis for what we do here. With
> everyone going into the direction of touch-friendliness here, it's
> easy to steer LibreOffice into even larger inconsistency. What we
> need, clearly is some sort of HIG, else we might actually make
> LibreOffice worse. This is not to say that we need a completely new HIG,
> but we need to
> either copy/paste the pieces we like from others (it still need s to
> be conherent) or need to adapt a pre-existing one that covers what we
> need.
>

OK. I started a wiki page for it [1]. It's a good topic for our upcoming
IRC chat -- we'll put items in the "Tentative design" section only after
we've discussed them.
There are several things I'd like to talk about:
a) Converging the keyboard+mouse and touch input -- especially important if
we want to target hybrid platforms, such as Gnome 3, Windows 8, and, of
course, the Web.
b) Avoiding double-click [2] -- fortunately, single-clicking is the
standard on the web and on touch-first platforms (Android, webOS, etc.)
c) Dialogs -- Could we slowly obsolete dialogs in favor of contextual
toolbars? Complex dialogs have no place on mobile UIs, where it's
preferable to simply integrate commands into the toolbar, with commands not
fitting into the toolbar placed in an overflow menu on the toolbar; it's
also much easier and faster to work with commands inside a toolbar than
with commands in a dialog window, plus the toolbar allows the user to his
changes applied directly, whereas dialog windows tend to cover up most of
the document.
d) Menus -- Could we also obviate menus (just make them optional) by
integrating common menu commands elsewhere in the interface?
e) What the Android and Web ports mean to us -- a lot of code is reused in
these ports; maybe the LibreOffice dashboard could also become a simple
file manager like it will be on Android?

[1]
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Human_Interface_Guidelines
[2] http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2004/10/double-click-must-die.html

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King Duck King Duck
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

Just answered the poll. I am 4 hours behind GMT (EDT) so I tried to pick
the best times that were available. I am taking a look
at the whiteboards right now. I am also working on a mockup for a tabbed
interface.

~ Maggie

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Mirek M. <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2012/3/19 Stefan Knorr (Astron) <[hidden email]>
>
> > Hi Mirek,
> >
> > > I've had a conversation with Alexander Wilms on IRC today and we've
> > decided
> > > that it would be productive if the whole Design team could meet on the
> > IRC
> > > to discuss relevant LibreOffice UI/design topics. We could start with
> the
> >
> > Actually, it would be a great idea if we could meet on IRC on a
> > weekly/bi-weekly basis. Maybe name it something like "Let's talk
> > design." (which conveniently abbreviates to "Ltd.") and set (a)
> > topic(s) before we meet. How do you feel about that?
> >
>
> I agree.
> The Gnome design team works on IRC only, and they're very productive.
> Should I create another Doodle poll that's more generic and includes all
> the days of the week? Is there a way to duplicate a poll on Doodle or do I
> have to write in the time intervals again?
>
> >
> > Secondly, there already is a Whiteboard on the topic that Christoph
> > started some time ago with many pointers to bugs etc – see [1]. I
> > guess we should use that.
> >
>
> OK.
> The page looks like it needs a bit of clean-up, though -- for example, why
> are suggestions listed under "Current state", and what is the point of
> "Further information"?
>
> >
> > Thirdly, often times we miss the basis for what we do here. With
> > everyone going into the direction of touch-friendliness here, it's
> > easy to steer LibreOffice into even larger inconsistency. What we
> > need, clearly is some sort of HIG, else we might actually make
> > LibreOffice worse. This is not to say that we need a completely new HIG,
> > but we need to
> > either copy/paste the pieces we like from others (it still need s to
> > be conherent) or need to adapt a pre-existing one that covers what we
> > need.
> >
>
> OK. I started a wiki page for it [1]. It's a good topic for our upcoming
> IRC chat -- we'll put items in the "Tentative design" section only after
> we've discussed them.
> There are several things I'd like to talk about:
> a) Converging the keyboard+mouse and touch input -- especially important if
> we want to target hybrid platforms, such as Gnome 3, Windows 8, and, of
> course, the Web.
> b) Avoiding double-click [2] -- fortunately, single-clicking is the
> standard on the web and on touch-first platforms (Android, webOS, etc.)
> c) Dialogs -- Could we slowly obsolete dialogs in favor of contextual
> toolbars? Complex dialogs have no place on mobile UIs, where it's
> preferable to simply integrate commands into the toolbar, with commands not
> fitting into the toolbar placed in an overflow menu on the toolbar; it's
> also much easier and faster to work with commands inside a toolbar than
> with commands in a dialog window, plus the toolbar allows the user to his
> changes applied directly, whereas dialog windows tend to cover up most of
> the document.
> d) Menus -- Could we also obviate menus (just make them optional) by
> integrating common menu commands elsewhere in the interface?
> e) What the Android and Web ports mean to us -- a lot of code is reused in
> these ports; maybe the LibreOffice dashboard could also become a simple
> file manager like it will be on Android?
>
> [1]
>
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Human_Interface_Guidelines
> [2] http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2004/10/double-click-must-die.html
>
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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi all!

Cool idea to organize that IRC meeting ... but first, here are some
other thoughts I've had when reading your mail.


Am Montag, den 19.03.2012, 20:46 +0100 schrieb Mirek M.:

> 2012/3/19 Stefan Knorr (Astron) <[hidden email]>
>
> > Hi Mirek,
> >
> > > I've had a conversation with Alexander Wilms on IRC today and we've
> > decided
> > > that it would be productive if the whole Design team could meet on the
> > IRC
> > > to discuss relevant LibreOffice UI/design topics. We could start with the
> >
> > Actually, it would be a great idea if we could meet on IRC on a
> > weekly/bi-weekly basis. Maybe name it something like "Let's talk
> > design." (which conveniently abbreviates to "Ltd.") and set (a)
> > topic(s) before we meet. How do you feel about that?

Looking back, the OOo IRC meetings have been quite nice ... although
usually only few people joined. Here is some stuff to get an idea what
worked well:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance:Status_Meetings

[...]
> > Secondly, there already is a Whiteboard on the topic that Christoph
> > started some time ago with many pointers to bugs etc – see [1]. I
> > guess we should use that.
> >
>
> OK.
> The page looks like it needs a bit of clean-up, though -- for example, why
> are suggestions listed under "Current state", and what is the point of
> "Further information"?

Oh, thanks for referring to this Whiteboard - it really needs some
cleanup, since some people already started to work on some issues (maybe
causing other issues *g*) - that's documented in Bugzilla.

Concerning suggestions under "Current state" - I seem to miss them.
Maybe you're referring to the "evaluation" of the today's behavior.
Proposals and such stuff is handled in the "Draft Area".

The point of "Further information" was to have a section to add stuff
that fits nowhere else - but I never had such info, so it can go.

> >
> > Thirdly, often times we miss the basis for what we do here. With
> > everyone going into the direction of touch-friendliness here, it's
> > easy to steer LibreOffice into even larger inconsistency. What we
> > need, clearly is some sort of HIG, else we might actually make
> > LibreOffice worse. This is not to say that we need a completely new HIG,
> > but we need to
> > either copy/paste the pieces we like from others (it still need s to
> > be conherent) or need to adapt a pre-existing one that covers what we
> > need.
> >
>
> OK. I started a wiki page for it [1]. It's a good topic for our upcoming
> IRC chat -- we'll put items in the "Tentative design" section only after
> we've discussed them.
[...]

> [1]
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Human_Interface_Guidelines

Some time ago, I made such a list on my personal page - would it be
helpful to move the table there?
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Temporary_Work_Space

Cheers,
Christoph



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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

Hi Christoph,

2012/3/20 Christoph Noack <[hidden email]>

> Hi all!
>
> Cool idea to organize that IRC meeting ... but first, here are some
> other thoughts I've had when reading your mail.
>
>
> Am Montag, den 19.03.2012, 20:46 +0100 schrieb Mirek M.:
> > 2012/3/19 Stefan Knorr (Astron) <[hidden email]>
> >
> > > Hi Mirek,
> > >
> > > > I've had a conversation with Alexander Wilms on IRC today and we've
> > > decided
> > > > that it would be productive if the whole Design team could meet on
> the
> > > IRC
> > > > to discuss relevant LibreOffice UI/design topics. We could start
> with the
> > >
> > > Actually, it would be a great idea if we could meet on IRC on a
> > > weekly/bi-weekly basis. Maybe name it something like "Let's talk
> > > design." (which conveniently abbreviates to "Ltd.") and set (a)
> > > topic(s) before we meet. How do you feel about that?
>
> Looking back, the OOo IRC meetings have been quite nice ... although
> usually only few people joined. Here is some stuff to get an idea what
> worked well:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance:Status_Meetings
>

Thanks for the link.
We should have our own IRC channel as well -- perhaps #libreoffice-design ?

>

[...]

> > > Secondly, there already is a Whiteboard on the topic that Christoph
> > > started some time ago with many pointers to bugs etc – see [1]. I
> > > guess we should use that.
> > >
> >
> > OK.
> > The page looks like it needs a bit of clean-up, though -- for example,
> why
> > are suggestions listed under "Current state", and what is the point of
> > "Further information"?
>
> Oh, thanks for referring to this Whiteboard - it really needs some
> cleanup, since some people already started to work on some issues (maybe
> causing other issues *g*) - that's documented in Bugzilla.
>
> Concerning suggestions under "Current state" - I seem to miss them.

Maybe you're referring to the "evaluation" of the today's behavior.
>

I'm referring to the "Issues and User Requests" section, which does include
suggestions such as the link to Jef van Schendel's Blog post. Not really an
issue, though.

Anyway, I tried to clean the wiki up, bring some hierarchy to it. It still
needs some work, though.

One thing I don't quite understand -- why is "Use with the given UI
technology we have so far (=avoid too much toolkit work)" under "Out of
scope"? This reads as "using the UI technology we have so far is out of
scope", while what I think it's trying to say is that "creating new UI
technologies is out of scope", no?
Also not sure about "tbd: Help for Other Contributors (Documentation and
Translation, QA) " under "Status and Roadmap". What do you want to create?


> Proposals and such stuff is handled in the "Draft Area".
>
> The point of "Further information" was to have a section to add stuff
> that fits nowhere else - but I never had such info, so it can go.
>
> > >
> > > Thirdly, often times we miss the basis for what we do here. With
> > > everyone going into the direction of touch-friendliness here, it's
> > > easy to steer LibreOffice into even larger inconsistency. What we
> > > need, clearly is some sort of HIG, else we might actually make
> > > LibreOffice worse. This is not to say that we need a completely new
> HIG,
> > > but we need to
> > > either copy/paste the pieces we like from others (it still need s to
> > > be conherent) or need to adapt a pre-existing one that covers what we
> > > need.
> > >
> >
> > OK. I started a wiki page for it [1]. It's a good topic for our upcoming
> > IRC chat -- we'll put items in the "Tentative design" section only after
> > we've discussed them.
> [...]
>
> > [1]
> >
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Human_Interface_Guidelines
>
> Some time ago, I made such a list on my personal page - would it be
> helpful to move the table there?
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Temporary_Work_Space
>

I'd prefer to keep the text to a minimum (for readability). The "Relevant
art" section is really just inspiration for what our HIG should be like. If
a designer would like to help with the HIG, he should check the relevant
art out himself rather than read a description of it.

>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
>
>
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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

Hi Mirek,

On 21 March 2012 09:09, Mirek M. <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Christoph,
> I'm referring to the "Issues and User Requests" section, which does include
> suggestions such as the link to Jef van Schendel's Blog post. Not really an
> issue, though.

That specific thing was my sole addition to the page. Aungh. Will try
to rectify that.


Astron.

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

I propose we have the first meeting this Saturday at 18:00 GMT, since
that's the time that most of us will be available.
Let's use the #libreoffice-design channel, so that we don't disturb the
#libreoffice channel. OK?

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Ivan Filho Ivan Filho
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

Em 22/03/2012 19:53, Mirek M. escreveu:
> I propose we have the first meeting this Saturday at 18:00 GMT, since
> that's the time that most of us will be available.
> Let's use the #libreoffice-design channel, so that we don't disturb the
> #libreoffice channel. OK?
>

It's OK for me.

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

what website do we use for this? iv only done this one other time with
a different group.

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Ivan Filho <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Em 22/03/2012 19:53, Mirek M. escreveu:
>
>  I propose we have the first meeting this Saturday at 18:00 GMT, since
>> that's the time that most of us will be available.
>> Let's use the #libreoffice-design channel, so that we don't disturb the
>> #libreoffice channel. OK?
>>
>>
> It's OK for me.
>
>
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Ivan Filho Ivan Filho
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

Em 23/03/2012 00:18, Andrew Pullins escreveu:
> what website do we use for this? iv only done this one other time with
> a different group.

You can install any IRC client, or use the web-based version:
http://webchat.freenode.net/

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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

In reply to this post by mirek2
OK

Am 22.03.2012 23:53, schrieb Mirek M.:
> I propose we have the first meeting this Saturday at 18:00 GMT, since
> that's the time that most of us will be available.
> Let's use the #libreoffice-design channel, so that we don't disturb the
> #libreoffice channel. OK?
>



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Kévin PEIGNOT-3 Kévin PEIGNOT-3
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Re: LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

I'm sorry I will not be there (I organize a party tonight .... I will
try to come but I'm almost sure I will not have time...) Sorry !

Le ven. 23 mars 2012 12:55:13 CET, Alexander Wilms a écrit :

> OK
>
> Am 22.03.2012 23:53, schrieb Mirek M.:
>> I propose we have the first meeting this Saturday at 18:00 GMT, since
>> that's the time that most of us will be available.
>> Let's use the #libreoffice-design channel, so that we don't disturb the
>> #libreoffice channel. OK?
>>
>
>
>

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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REMINDER: IRC discussion is now! :-) (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Design team IRC chat)

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi everyone,

this is a kind reminder that we are about to start the design team chat
now. If you missed it - we are meeting at the #libreoffice-design
channel on IRC. Currently there are alexanderW, IvanFilho and myself.

Hope to see you ...

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Donnerstag, den 22.03.2012, 23:53 +0100 schrieb Mirek M.:
> I propose we have the first meeting this Saturday at 18:00 GMT, since
> that's the time that most of us will be available.
> Let's use the #libreoffice-design channel, so that we don't disturb the
> #libreoffice channel. OK?
>



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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: REMINDER: IRC discussion is now! :-) (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Design team IRC chat)

Hi Christoph, all,

sorry for not being there at all when I said I could be... I was
occupied with other stuff, and then seemingly didn't really get the
GMT bit (else I would have risked at least with half an eye).

Astron.

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King Duck King Duck
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Re: REMINDER: IRC discussion is now! :-) (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Design team IRC chat)

Hello Christoph and all,
Sorry for not being able to make the chat. I ended up with an emergency so
I could not make it.
~ Maggie

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Stefan Knorr (Astron) <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Christoph, all,
>
> sorry for not being there at all when I said I could be... I was
> occupied with other stuff, and then seemingly didn't really get the
> GMT bit (else I would have risked at least with half an eye).
>
> Astron.
>
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