Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

Hi Narayan, all,

*short version:*

Thanks for proposing a web design expert to provide his knowledge and
expertise to LibreOffice.

Like mentioned by others it might be hard for an external expert to
learn about the needs and preconditions in our community being the
prerequisite for any acceptance of his work by the community. Most of
these conditions are not written, but need explanation by long-term
project members during a phase of iterative improvement.

If your expert doesn't want to be involved in discussions and proposals
with experts and community members from other parts of the LibO
community, his work can't be more than a proposal, perhaps used as
starting point for a community based web design. Most likely he will
find important parts (in his expert opinion) of his design modified and
downgraded. As this might have an impact on your personal relationship,
I want him to know this beforehand.

But if he is interested in getting information about our needs, wants to
join a collaborative effort to improve the website and is open to
modifications caused by present community experience (especially in
iterative improvements rather than general overhaul), he is more than
welcome to propose his ideas.

Even if he doesn't want to stay longer with us, I think everybody will
see his positive contribution (and if he likes the way we work - perhaps
he reconsiders his decision...)

In order to include his work in our efforts it would be necessary to
license it under a proper OS license (CC by-sa 3.0 for the website).


*long version (covering some other topics too):*

Narayan Aras schrieb:

>
> Hi David,
>
>> From: [hidden email] Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:32:56 +0800
>
>> @Narayan: I understand very well your thoughts and attitudes about
>> involving that talented graphic designer contact of yours. I also
>> see the need to someone to work closely with us on graphics and
>> page presentation. But, this is an OS project, and I don't think it
>> can be achieved in quite the manner you envision.

I think it doesn't need to be black or white -  if the designer would be
interested in work for the community, we'll probably find a way to use
his expertise.
>
>> We have to remember that developing the libreoffice.org site is
>> very much a cooperative effort between design contributors and
>> content contributors, and that we need to keep Design in the loop
>> about things.

Fully agreed - so please read below.
>
> First, let us differentiate between (a) the designer and (b) his
> designs for our project.
>
> The designer would produce IA+wireframe+icon proposals.
>
> The proposals are to be reviewed publicly and subject to change.
>
> It is not a "take it or leave it" offer.

For any contributor to our project it is important, that he sees his
contribution being respected and valued.

For the community it is important, that our central needs and interests
are respected.

This is more easily to be achieved, if the contributor works
collaboratively with the respective team, present his ideas and is open
to improvements necessary because he can't know all the preconditions by
the community.

It is possible to provide IA, wireframe and icons on a independent
basis, but it's quite likely that it will not be accepted by the team
because it doesn't include all the necessary aspects.

Re-iteration is necessary - and if the designer doesn't want to take
part in this area, it is crucial to get the sources for his icons and
the right to use his work (under an appropriate license).

If he doesn't want to be involved in this way, his work can't be more
than a stimulus for the team to work in his direction.

> [...]
>
> Do we have bigger web professionals on board who can judge him?

I don't know, but this is not the main point:

Our website needs to fulfill several different goals - attract curious
people to become users or contributors, provide information to present
users and contributors.

The user groups are diverging, contributors work in very different areas
- how can you describe the needs of our community to someone who doesn't
know about our structure and the way we work?
>
>
> And what has this to do with the OS model?? [...] Website
> design is a specialized field, and even an OS project would have to
> follow its norms.

... provided the designer knows about the preconditions mentioned above.

Some of these conditions show up later on - just because they have been
forgotten or not taken as serious as they should, some develop in
future. They have to become implemented too - and evolving a design
without the primary team is harder.

> I have often heard about this "design" group, but- I have not seen
> its leadership for the website (providing vision, setting scope of
> work, planning). It failed to allocate resources to this project
> (e.g. graphic designer, copywriters). It has not given periodic
> creative feedback on the work done so far.

You don't understand "leadership" in the way we define it in this
volunteer community. As long as the group is not large enough to do all
the necessary work immediately (and I never experienced this during some
years of work in the OOo community) it is necessary to find volunteers
to work on specific topics - or to wait a bit longer...

What we call "leadership" is providing the "overall view", some insight
in the basic ideas and necessities of the community. This is very
important in a community with so many different activities and groups -
and that's the point that didn't work well in this team in the past.
>
> Given that, they should not at least be a hindrance when we are
> struggling to manage on our own. To be fair, I have not seen any
> evidence that they would block us from doing any positive work.

"On our own" might be problematic - because the website team is one
(important) aspect of the overall community. But in general you're
right: You will not be blocked, if the work is considered as positive
for the community.
>
> [...] I think the root cause is that some members lack knowledge of this
> field (website design). Then they try to make it up with common
> sense. This results in conflicts.
>
> When two disparate Communities of Practice come together, it is best
> to give space to the core specialists.

Agreed - if the specialists are in line with the common community goals.

>
>> Everyone wants the project to go forward - but often in different
>> directions!
>>
>> There comes a time when we have to choose one path and then all
>> contribute to it.
>
> That was my point: The current design is way off course - Both in
> process and contents. See this checklist and decide for yourself:
> http://www.abrook.com/website-design/website-planning-checklist/

Thanks for this link - If I remember correctly, most of these points
have been mentioned during our discussions here, but haven't been
presented in such a good structure.


> [...]SC should give us a lab space. Like Google labs, we should
> have an official idea-generation and prototyping area.

With Pumbaa [1] there is already a staging site.

But we shouldn't start to work on an independent structure - at the
moment the present website needs work! We don't have superfluous
resources to divide our activities on two sites...
>
>> [... Drupal staging site ...]
>
> In fact, why not NOW? The two phases can run concurrently. And we
> will also work on phase-1 unreservedly.

Just because we had this problem already in the past.

The SC decision not to support Drupal development during the next month
has been based on the experience, that Drupal supporters worked on their
site instead of the main LibreOffice site, they started a challenge
between the two CMS and proposed Drupal solutions as the best way to
handle several tasks in different teams while people having worked with
other tools for some years didn't want to give up their tools.

This led to numerous mails and discussions - with the result of a
negative work/discussion ratio.

To enable work again the SC decision to postpone Drupal development has
been taken - and as Charles already stated: Please don't try to revert
this decision before we have reached a final state of our website.

It would lead to even more discussion and less real work...

Best regards

Bernhard

[1]: http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/

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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz

Hello Charles,

You really need to work on your communication skills (both listening to people and writing what you actually mean.)

I have been the subject of two of your rants, both which you retracted later.
Such cowboy behavior cannot be good for the community.

> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 17:26:33 +0100
> From: [hidden email]

> Hello Michael,
>
> Le Fri, 4 Feb 2011 00:35:40 +0930,
> Michael Wheatland <[hidden email]> a écrit :
 
> > Charles, it might be worth choosing your wording more carefully and
> > steering people toward a solution rather than dictating, just as you
> > have suggested others do.
>
> I'm not dictating, I'm merely reminding.

Your "reminders" come across as royal edicts: Final and non-negotiable.
To the "open source"-minded people, they look tactless and arrogant.
Particularly when you have to explain them later.

And then you have to agree to our POV after understanding what we really mean.
So you end up looking clueless as well.

> > On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 5:08 PM, charles.h.schulz
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Just a reminder:
> > >
> > > We will not consider any move to another CMS, platform, etc. until
> > > at least 6 months. At that stage (in 6 months or so) we might/may
> > > perhaps *consider* (not necessarily approve) a move to a platform
> > > such as Drupal.
> > >
> > > Until that stage:
> > > 1) no discussion about Drupal on this list.
> > > 2) no "major overhaul" of the website.
> >
> > There may be people within the community who want to consider these
> > things, and they are free to do so. It's only natural for an open
> > source community.
>
> An open source community focuses on code, not on website experiments.

Who says so? Is that in the definition of "OS community"?
Italo rightly recognizes the website as a marketing tool. It is NOT trivial as you imagine.

By its very nature people come together according to their expertise and choice.
And rather than calling them "experiments", why don't you realize that the site is nowhere nearly ready?
And that is what we are talking about.

> > BUT what we have been trying to discuss here is the development of the
> > 'about pages', so I would suggest if you wish to discuss CMS choice
> > you start another thread.
>
> I'm glad if improvements are done; and I'm cautiously warning against
> not having discussions on CMS choice.

Did you ever see "Drupal" mentioned here? Why are you fixated with it?

I particularly object at your tactless way of putting it, under the circumstances.
I have particularly in contributed solving Silverstripe problems, if you care to read the threads.
Have I ever bashed it?

> > > What this does not mean:
> > > 1) we can't change the way some of the content is presented on the
> > > website. (see the wiki page for this) 2) we can't improve the
> > > website in minor ways. 3) we can't fix bugs.
> >
> > It is difficult to gauge your opinions here as some of the changes
> > that people are suggesting might be considered a major overhaul rather
> > than minor bug fixes.
>
> So let's call them "improvements"?  :-)

Call it whatever you like. I think it is a "yes" now, eh?

> > The changes such as further development of media rich content and
> > improved CSS for page structures falls under this major overhaul but
> > IMO 'essential' category which I am unsure of your opinion on.
> > In any case I don't think it is good to discourage this work as your
> > comments seem to.
>
> What you describe above seems to fall for sure in improvements.

So complete reversal of stand again?

> > > Yes, there comes a time when the website is "completed" and where
> > > only incremental improvements are needed. Again: LibreOffice is not
> > > about a website nor about letting people satisfy their passion
> > > about web design, at least not primarily. We do not want a website
> > > that keeps on changing because people think their way is better. We
> > > (the SC) do not want to reopen yet another thread about these
> > > topics. The level of energy and effort spent on this topic (the
> > > website) is ridiculously high compared to what we need to to work
> > > on. We're therefore glad that there are people who want to help but
> > > there comes a point where it's not helpful, because someone's
> > > always pushing, pushing and always pushing. Same thing with respect
> > > to the website confcall: we haven't agreed on working again on
> > > overhauling the website, we haven't agreed on changing the website
> > > team, which for the sake of clarity is composed of the same 4
> > > people the SC has appointed.
> >
> >
> > "We (The SC)" do not dictate what the website team discusses. The SC
> > suggestions and the website conf call has clearly steered us towards
> > improving the site as it stands before looking for improvements in the
> > infrastructure, which is occurring. But it does not stop others from
> > investigating other options or proposing new ideas.

The last web conference call actually did NOT cover the agenda because many people could not connect.
We will need yet another meeting to proceed with the agenda.
So the major decisions are yet to be taken. The SC is also invited in it.
Given that, how can SC talk at cross-purposes and conclude on those topics beforehand?
 
> > I take offence to your insinuation that the only people in the website
> > team are appointed by the Steering Committee. The website team is a
> > wider group of people who work together, we do not rely on the
> > Steering Committee to tell us what to do, or appoint new members to
> > our team. There are many more people that 'the four' who I would
> > consider valuable, contributing members of the website team.
>
> Given that I have already written precisely that the four people in
> question are "community enablers" I'm not going to repeat it.

So you reverse what you wrote in response to my post earlier?

> > Could I suggest that, like Florian and some other well respected
> > members of the Steering Committee, you allow the website team a little
> > breathing space at the moment to organically work the kinks out rather
> > than attempting to dictate what the team must or must not discuss or
> > what opinions people can express.
> > I would not like your comments result in an 'Us vs Them' relationship.
> > We are a community who should be respectful of others views and open
> > to listen to others opinions.
> >
> > Just some ideas on more careful communication :)
> > Michael Wheatland
> >
>
> Here's what my problem is: we (all of us here) invest time and effort
> into something which in theory should not cost us that much. People
> here don't seem to get along, have twenty different agendas, and the
> very factual comment I can make is that they simply have trouble
> working together. I could say that several of them are not used to OSS
> communities, but that would perhaps sound too paternalistic or
> arrogant. The net result is that we have a website, that there is room
> for improvement (yes, this website has way too much text on it) but
> that this website has been a birth in pain and tears.

Please understand that we are only struggling to correct that situation.
Perhaps the web team should discuss the finer details in private, but this mail list is the only channel.

OSS does not mean we forget the basic design principles.
Would you forgo Java coding practices/standards (or even commenting) just because it is OSS?
Would you not like to use patterns/antipatterns and refactoring?

Likewise website design is a specialized field, and too many outsiders are having strong opinions on that.
Unless they are educated on the subject, we would continue to have these differences.
We are trying to settle that, through a patient dialog.
But if the SC jumps in with spiked shoes, it only puts the group under wanton pressure.

Please have faith we are all mature people, and we can settle the differences on our own.
We would like the SC to take on a nurturing role.

Thank you.

-Narayan
     
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RE: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by Christoph Noack

Hi Christoph,

> Well, I think Italo already outlined it quite well - anybody will
> welcome any contribution as long as it fits in the broader picture. And
> if not, others can simply pick the provided material and tweak it until
> it fits. If we don't succeed, well, then there is a little chance that
> it won't be used. But (as Mike outlined) it would better, if somebody
> feels comfortable to work within a team and stays :-)

Exactly! It is so intuitive, isn't it? :)

> Narayan, why shouldn't this work if someone provides material either for
> the website team, or within the design team? I think our documentation
> is rather good to get an idea how the project "wants to look like".

Yes, that's the point: I am scratching my head still!

I didn't believe for a moment that LO community was so hostile/unwelcoming to the Good Samaritans.
But that's how David responded. What can I say?

Anyway, that opportunity is lost.
I hope we welcome any contributors with open arms next time! :)

-Narayan
     
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RE: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by davidnelson




Hi Bernhard,

First, thanks for the level-toned and opinion-free response.

> If your expert doesn't want to be involved in discussions and proposals
> with experts and community members from other parts of the LibO
> community, his work can't be more than a proposal, perhaps used as
> starting point for a community based web design. Most likely he will
> find important parts (in his expert opinion) of his design modified and
> downgraded. As this might have an impact on your personal relationship,
> I want him to know this beforehand.
>
> But if he is interested in getting information about our needs, wants to
> join a collaborative effort to improve the website and is open to
> modifications caused by present community experience (especially in
> iterative improvements rather than general overhaul), he is more than
> welcome to propose his ideas.

The first approach is not viable (we NEVER work like that).
Approach#2 is how we routinely work.

Inputs from key stakeholders is essential (including marketing, design, UX team AND  copywriters).
After that, he would propose some "seed" designs, so that all members can brainstorm.
(Normally designers do that to gauge the mood of their clients.)

Based on the discussion, he would make the final design (HTML code, icons).
There may be one or more rounds of this.

In other words, his work on this project would RELY on comprehensive inputs from EVERYONE.
His output would be modulated based on stage-wise reviews by all stakeholders.

> Even if he doesn't want to stay longer with us, I think everybody will
> see his positive contribution (and if he likes the way we work - perhaps
> he reconsiders his decision...)

I hope so! :)
 
> In order to include his work in our efforts it would be necessary to
> license it under a proper OS license (CC by-sa 3.0 for the website).

Yes, I will convey this.

> *long version (covering some other topics too):*

[..]

> Our website needs to fulfill several different goals - attract curious
> people to become users or contributors, provide information to present
> users and contributors.
>
> The user groups are diverging, contributors work in very different areas
> - how can you describe the needs of our community to someone who doesn't
> know about our structure and the way we work?

That is why requirements from all stakeholders need to be collected.
Without that clarity, no website (-indeed any product-) can be designed.

> > And what has this to do with the OS model?? [...] Website
> > design is a specialized field, and even an OS project would have to
> > follow its norms.
>
> ... provided the designer knows about the preconditions mentioned above.
> Some of these conditions show up later on - just because they have been
> forgotten or not taken as serious as they should, some develop in
> future. They have to become implemented too - and evolving a design
> without the primary team is harder.

Yes, this is a frequent scenario in real-world web-design too. :)

> > Given that, they should not at least be a hindrance when we are
> > struggling to manage on our own. To be fair, I have not seen any
> > evidence that they would block us from doing any positive work.
>
> "On our own" might be problematic - because the website team is one
> (important) aspect of the overall community. But in general you're
> right: You will not be blocked, if the work is considered as positive
> for the community.

How can it be deemed otherwise, when the website would be designed with your inputs and stage-wise consultation? :)

But there has to be a caveat:
Everyone should respect what a web-designer says about his field.
Do not try to foist outside concepts on web design.

If there is a disagreement, we settle it by referring to reference literature on UX and web design.
(Like the link I quoted.) AGREED?

Also keep in mind the adage that a camel is a horse designed by a committee. :)

> >> Everyone wants the project to go forward - but often in different
> >> directions!
> >>
> >> There comes a time when we have to choose one path and then all
> >> contribute to it.
> >
> > That was my point: The current design is way off course - Both in
> > process and contents. See this checklist and decide for yourself:
> > http://www.abrook.com/website-design/website-planning-checklist/
>
> Thanks for this link - If I remember correctly, most of these points
> have been mentioned during our discussions here, but haven't been
> presented in such a good structure.

I am glad that multiple people have repeatedly asked for these SAME points!
It means that a majority of the group WANTS to follow that path. :)

> > [...]SC should give us a lab space. Like Google labs, we should
> > have an official idea-generation and prototyping area.
>
> With Pumbaa [1] there is already a staging site.

That page does not load! (connection times out)

> The SC decision not to support Drupal development during the next month
> has been based on the experience, that Drupal supporters worked on their
> site instead of the main LibreOffice site, they started a challenge
> between the two CMS and proposed Drupal solutions as the best way to
> handle several tasks in different teams while people having worked with
> other tools for some years didn't want to give up their tools.
>
> This led to numerous mails and discussions - with the result of a
> negative work/discussion ratio.
>
> To enable work again the SC decision to postpone Drupal development has
> been taken - and as Charles already stated: Please don't try to revert
> this decision before we have reached a final state of our website.
>
> It would lead to even more discussion and less real work...

Frankly I don't care about CMS at all.

At this moment, we must focus on creating a professional website.
CMS has nothing to do with this first phase.

After that, we must focus on how to deliver the desired functions for all stakeholders, and how to create an integrated workflow.
That is what I proposed for the website team agenda.

In the wider context, choice of CMS would have an impact, because each CMS has different "out-of-the-box" capability.
We should implement a website with minimum hacking, so that security is not compromized.
Also, any local hacking breaks when the CMS or its plugins get updated.

But let us keep that brainstorming (not a face-off or debate, mind!) for later.

****
To sum up-

If we are clear about our workflow, I can request my colleague to come in and help.
I'd like a clarity and consensus on this point, please!

Regards,
Narayan
     
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Re: RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by Narayan Aras
Hi Narayan, (and the Website team! even of most of this isn't relevant
to you)

Forgive me for top-posting, but Ivan was kind enough to address all your
concerns in turn.
My name is Nikash, I'm on the Design list. I used to be on the website
list also, but recently, the website list has a great deal of
infrastructural issues to discuss that I unfortunately can't keep up
with, not due to lack of technical-knowledge (I work and teach in this,
after all) but due to volume and time.

Sometimes my /polite/ Emails are interpreted as quite /rude/... this is
not one of those times.

In the past (and I know you don't care about the past, but it is
relevant here) we've had *very* good collaboration between the Design
and Website teams.
There is even camaraderie and respect.
I don't mean to sound rude ... or maybe I do ... but your comments,
whether you see it this way or not, are hurting our relationship. They
don't show the same respect.
I sincerely hope there *aren't* others from our list still subscribed
here because what you've said about our team, is insulting.
I previously assumed you truly didn't mean to insult anyone, but
comments like this; ...
 > "Reality check: How much is the contribution from the design team on
those topics?"
... don't show much consideration. I'm sure the Design team could make
uninformed claims about the Website team, but no one on our list is that
... well let's not pussy-foot ... stupid.
Instead, you seem to think the Design team exists only to answer your
beck-and-call.

You wanted to bring someone in? do the job? better than us? and get out?
Nice. Quick. Clean. Right?

Well actually, no. Why do you assume there is not enough skill in the
Design team to be able to support/offer/improve on your friend's
capabilities?
I'm sure he's good, but to be quite blunt, we'd own him. I don't mean
hierarchically, I mean competitively. We'd tear him a new processed-food
hole.
I don't usually say things like that, I suppose you think /that/ is
disrespectful? funny, isn't it?.

Anywho, you asked why your designer should be "approved" by the Design team.
When did the Design team say they would be "approving" members?
We raise ideas, we work together, and we refine each other's work. Like
you do.
We have a community who toils for LibO and deserves to contribute to
EVERY graphic solution. Like you do.
Why would we be interested in having a stranger, with their own
subjective tastes, come in and override all our hard work?
Leaving us with a Design style that we would have no choice but to
integrate, without having any input.
It would affect all our members and all our work so far. And we've been
working *VERY* hard for consistency!

This list went through a recent torrent of activity because your members
felt they had not been consulted about certain areas that they should
have a say in.
Did you learn that lesson; how important that feeling of inclusion is?
or does the "population of the LibO site with graphics" override these
concerns?
That would be rather hypocritical.

*But put all that aside, let me pose to you a hypothetical situation;
- The Design team needs a gallery website to display X
- The Design team /hires/ a "specialist" in web-development to create
this solution
- The Website team is not consulted
- The solution provided by the "specialist" gets adopted as the
preferred technology throughout LibO
- The Website team is told to _adjust_ to it.*

Doesn't sound fairm right? Well, we wouldn't be this inconsiderate.
Christian knows we come to him to pimp our sites.
Not because we HAVE to, but because we WANT to. And we WANT to come to
ALL of you with requests for collaboration.
The Design team would suffer the above fate if you just brought in your
"designer friend".
The hard work of an entire team, undone by the inconsiderate zeal of
just one man.
When has nepotism proven superior to competition in OpenSource?

But I'm sick of complaining.

_To the *rest* of you: _
We have a long-standing tradition of collaboration and we've done well.
But the past isn't everything, even today, we look to you for support
and engagement.
We can still work with each other to make AMAZING solutions if you will
bare with us in this very busy time we are going through while we try
and create a consistent look and feel for this entire project. It may
take time, it may not be straight-forward, but we contribute DESIGN for
the same reason you contribute WEBDEV: we want the best for LibO. We ask
you to be patient because we too have been patient, we could have
harassed you with Website-requests, but instead we waited patiently
until you had things under control.

So please, don't circumnavigate us. Talk to us. Ask us for help and we
will.
We all know people who are awesome at what they do,
but people who /come/, /contribute 1 thing/ and /leave/ don't help the
community, they harm the community.
If they were GENUINELY interested in supporting our cause, they would
JOIN the community. Like everyone here has done.

It might not be the most immediate solution, but how often is the
/immediate/ solution the /best/ solution?
I'm appealing to your pragmatism, to trust that "slow and steady" will
win this race.

Sorry Ivan. I've undone all your hard work in diplomacy. I don't know
how you are the tolerant man you are.
But if I scream in one ear while you speak softly in the other, I'm sure
one of us will get through, otherwise we'll just have an odd conversation.
But this is only the crutch of one man. I don't think the entire Website
team has supported this suggestion to bypass the Design team rather than
work with them?

...

I quite admired what you and Mike all went through recently to establish
yourselves as valid voices in this community.
It would be a shame if all that determination were driven by
self-gratification, instead of true conviction.

-Nik.

PS. This Email IS insulting, but only to
Narayan+anyone-else-who-thinks-our-community-is-composed-of-ONLY-the-Website-team.
If you've taken offence to it, no apologies, and rest assured, I'm as
uninterested in working with you, as you are me.




On 6:59 AM, Narayan Aras wrote:

> Hi Ivan,
>
>>> After all, we are NOT screening a thousand contenders to select the lucky winner.
>>> So why do you feel this compulsion to get the designer approved by the Design team?
>
> I wanted to bring a designer strictly one time; only for the website work (not on permanent basis).
>
> He would have done this as a big favor to me.
>
> So I proposed that he should be doing his good deed and go his way, but I could not have him judged.
>
> He would have been a rescuer, not a supplicant.
>
>> I think there might be a misunderstanding here. The focus of the
>> Design team is much broader than the website. For one, it has a focus
>> on branding, which will necessarily set constraints on the website
>> design (e.g. which colors to use, what kinds of styles to develop,
>> etc). It also has a focus on user experience, which includes (among
>> many other things) wireframing. From what I gather, you are interested
>> in these topics. They can certainly be discussed here on the website
>> list, but to get the big picture, I would suggest you also subscribe
>> to the Design list to keep up with related developments. I think
>> you'll be surprised by the talent we have and it would be great to
>> have you on board.
> sure! :)
>
>>> And about this "approval" per se- How appropriate is it?
>>> How exactly will the Design team approve the designer?
>>>
>>> You know the professional profile of my friend.
>>>
>>> Do we have bigger web professionals on board who can judge him?
>> Not necessarily, but I don't like the implication of what you are
>> saying because you are implicitly making a judgement yourself. No one
>> can come in expecting a mandate to be handed over to them just because
>> they are a professional - they will need to show that they can make
>> tangible contributions to meet the needs of the project *now*. This
>> will allow them to establish merit and have their suggestions taken
>> seriously in the future.
> He was NOT interested in joining the team.
> He agreed to help out only because I requested.
> He would have done his design, gifted it to me (to Libo) and moved on.
> Why do we have to harass such good samaritans with our approval process?
>
> If our car is wrecked on the road, and if someone is offering first aid, do we subject him to full approval process?
> Or just grab his offer thankfully?
>
>>> And what has this to do with the OS model??
>>> I refuse to believe that an OS project has to be run unprofessionally as a policy.
>>> Website design is a specialized field, and even an OS project would have to follow its norms.
>> Yes, there are some norms we need to follow, but there are also norms
>> set by the project that website designers will need to follow. We are
>> a collaborative volunteer community, not a web design firm. The
>> dynamics are rather different - it can be a lot more complicated, much
>> slower, but also very rewarding when it's done.
> While handling guests. we have to be extra courteous, and not make them jump hoops in the name of rules.
>
>>> No I think the root cause is that some members lack knowledge of this field (website design).
>>> Then they try to make it up with common sense. This results in conflicts.
>> I'm going to rewrite your statement in a way that I hope will make an
>> important point. Please don't interpret it as if it refers to you
>> specifically but rather try to see the point behind it (i.e., we need
>> 'institutional knowledge' within the project as much as we need
>> 'expertise' in a specific discipline):
>> Some members lack the knowledge of this project (LibreOffice). Then
>> they try to make it up with the way things are done elsewhere (be it
>> design school, web design firms, commercial/'real life' experience,
>> even other open source projects, etc). This results in conflicts.
> UX principles will remain universal, as applied to a website for any purpose.
> It has nothing to do with organizational dynamics.
> Are dynamics responsible for the fact that the website lacks search, tag line, AND site map?
> Why is it designed for reading, as against scanning?
>
>>> When two disparate Communities of Practice come together, it is best to give space to the core specialists.
>> Ideally, we will have a mix of big picture people and specialists. I
>> don't mean 'big picture' in terms of a redesign; I mean 'big picture'
>> as in "where does the website fit in LibreOffice, which projects or
>> people should I ask for help on this or that task, how does the
>> website design reflect, represent, or develop the visual 'language'
>> established in the branding guidelines", etc. Design and website are
>> not disparate communities; like Venn Diagrams, they have overlapping
>> areas of interest.
> I meant content-writers and graphic designers are disparate groups! :)
>
> BTW you are right about the big picture- That's what we are going to discuss at the conference call.
>
> It's good to have this discussion.
>
> Regards,
> Narayan
>    

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Re: Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)

In reply to this post by Narayan Aras
Hi Narayan, *

To all: Please read the very last paragraph of this still quite long
mail and comment with +1/-1 to the summary!

Narayan Aras schrieb:

>
> Hi Bernhard,
>
> First, thanks for the level-toned and opinion-free response.
>
>> [... first approach...]
>>
>> But if he is interested in getting information about our needs,
>> wants to join a collaborative effort to improve the website and is
>> open to modifications caused by present community experience
>> (especially in iterative improvements rather than general
>> overhaul), he is more than welcome to propose his ideas.
>
> The first approach is not viable (we NEVER work like that).
> Approach#2 is how we routinely work.

In this case it's up to him to join our team for a certain time.

He doesn't need to contribute to any other topic, but it is necessary to
join us on our way to communicate - even if he doesn't like mailing
lists, this is our main tool.
>
> Inputs from key stakeholders is essential (including marketing,
> design, UX team AND  copywriters). After that, he would propose some
> "seed" designs, so that all members can brainstorm. (Normally
> designers do that to gauge the mood of their clients.)

Sorry - I don't think that anybody here will be able to provide him with
all the necessary inputs. Either you will have the time to tell him the
essentials or he will have to find out through our past and present
activities. Most of them have been collected by website team members,
when they followed the idea of Drupal implementation, but I don't know
if anybody has the time to provide your expert with their results.

Even if he might get a first collection of preconditions, people will
come and claim their needs afterwards: That's normal reaction to work on
the area where you have to do most of the work, until another area shows
possible drawbacks for future activities.

That's one of the reasons you normally need to have more than a slight
idea of the community you work with.
>
> Based on the discussion, he would make the final design (HTML code,
> icons). There may be one or more rounds of this.

Or the team decides to use his work as a basis for *our* final design.

This is an option he *will have to accept*. He is not the only expert in
this field, but his input is appreciated.
>
> [...]
>
> But there has to be a caveat: Everyone should respect what a
> web-designer says about his field. Do not try to foist outside
> concepts on web design.

Sorry, you don't see the central point:
The website is part of the community - and therefore it might be (not
necessarily, but I can't preclude it) that there are needs not being
able to be integrated in his concept.

It's the community who decides about the tools - and web design is one
of the tools we use for our needs.
>
> If there is a disagreement, we settle it by referring to reference
> literature on UX and web design. (Like the link I quoted.) AGREED?

NO!

If there is a disagreement, every position has to be make understandable
to the other side, so everybody has to find his way to an agreement or
compromise.

If the community will not follow your expert's opinion, it's still the
community to decide what to implement and what to leave.

But: The community doesn't consist of idiots only! So we are capable to
see the advantages of a good web design.
>
> [...]
>>
>> With Pumbaa [1] there is already a staging site.
>
> That page does not load! (connection times out)

Not for me - please ask Christian for help.
>
>> [...]
>
> **** To sum up-
>
> If we are clear about our workflow, I can request my colleague to
> come in and help. I'd like a clarity and consensus on this point,
> please!

Tell your friend that his input is appreciated - but that the finally
implemented design might be tweaked/improved by the design team (it
might be replaced by another proposal too).

We would like it most, if he would take the chance to cooperate with us
on this point (this would mean joining our group at least for a certain
time), but we can do it on our own too.

We have skilled web designers in our team - like Nik - so he will not be
the only "expert" (and he should avoid to behave so).

If he can stand discussion and proposals for improvement, leading to a
collaborative work, he is more than welcome.

But the final result will be the communities web design - not his
donation (or how he might call it).

I hope this is quite clear to you and to him.

And as this is my personal point of view (but based on years of
experience in this community), I'd like others to add a short "+1" or
"-1" to this summary showing if I met their point of prioritizing
collaboration over single time donation.

Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)

Hi,


Le Fri, 04 Feb 2011 11:12:01 +0100,
Bernhard Dippold <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Hi Narayan, *
>
> To all: Please read the very last paragraph of this still quite long
> mail and comment with +1/-1 to the summary!
>
> Narayan Aras schrieb:
> >
> > Hi Bernhard,
> >
> > First, thanks for the level-toned and opinion-free response.
> >
> >> [... first approach...]
> >>
> >> But if he is interested in getting information about our needs,
> >> wants to join a collaborative effort to improve the website and is
> >> open to modifications caused by present community experience
> >> (especially in iterative improvements rather than general
> >> overhaul), he is more than welcome to propose his ideas.
> >
> > The first approach is not viable (we NEVER work like that).
> > Approach#2 is how we routinely work.
>
> In this case it's up to him to join our team for a certain time.
>
> He doesn't need to contribute to any other topic, but it is necessary
> to join us on our way to communicate - even if he doesn't like mailing
> lists, this is our main tool.
> >
> > Inputs from key stakeholders is essential (including marketing,
> > design, UX team AND  copywriters). After that, he would propose some
> > "seed" designs, so that all members can brainstorm. (Normally
> > designers do that to gauge the mood of their clients.)
>
> Sorry - I don't think that anybody here will be able to provide him
> with all the necessary inputs. Either you will have the time to tell
> him the essentials or he will have to find out through our past and
> present activities. Most of them have been collected by website team
> members, when they followed the idea of Drupal implementation, but I
> don't know if anybody has the time to provide your expert with their
> results.
>
> Even if he might get a first collection of preconditions, people will
> come and claim their needs afterwards: That's normal reaction to work
> on the area where you have to do most of the work, until another area
> shows possible drawbacks for future activities.
>
> That's one of the reasons you normally need to have more than a slight
> idea of the community you work with.
> >
> > Based on the discussion, he would make the final design (HTML code,
> > icons). There may be one or more rounds of this.
>
> Or the team decides to use his work as a basis for *our* final design.
>
> This is an option he *will have to accept*. He is not the only expert
> in this field, but his input is appreciated.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > But there has to be a caveat: Everyone should respect what a
> > web-designer says about his field. Do not try to foist outside
> > concepts on web design.
>
> Sorry, you don't see the central point:
> The website is part of the community - and therefore it might be (not
> necessarily, but I can't preclude it) that there are needs not being
> able to be integrated in his concept.
>
> It's the community who decides about the tools - and web design is
> one of the tools we use for our needs.
> >
> > If there is a disagreement, we settle it by referring to reference
> > literature on UX and web design. (Like the link I quoted.) AGREED?
>
> NO!
>
> If there is a disagreement, every position has to be make
> understandable to the other side, so everybody has to find his way to
> an agreement or compromise.
>
> If the community will not follow your expert's opinion, it's still
> the community to decide what to implement and what to leave.
>
> But: The community doesn't consist of idiots only! So we are capable
> to see the advantages of a good web design.
> >
> > [...]
> >>
> >> With Pumbaa [1] there is already a staging site.
> >
> > That page does not load! (connection times out)
>
> Not for me - please ask Christian for help.
> >
> >> [...]
> >
> > **** To sum up-
> >
> > If we are clear about our workflow, I can request my colleague to
> > come in and help. I'd like a clarity and consensus on this point,
> > please!
>
> Tell your friend that his input is appreciated - but that the finally
> implemented design might be tweaked/improved by the design team (it
> might be replaced by another proposal too).
>
> We would like it most, if he would take the chance to cooperate with
> us on this point (this would mean joining our group at least for a
> certain time), but we can do it on our own too.
>
> We have skilled web designers in our team - like Nik - so he will not
> be the only "expert" (and he should avoid to behave so).
>
> If he can stand discussion and proposals for improvement, leading to
> a collaborative work, he is more than welcome.
>
> But the final result will be the communities web design - not his
> donation (or how he might call it).
>
> I hope this is quite clear to you and to him.
>
> And as this is my personal point of view (but based on years of
> experience in this community), I'd like others to add a short "+1" or
> "-1" to this summary showing if I met their point of prioritizing
> collaboration over single time donation.



-1 to inviting a new web designer.

best,
Charles.

>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by nik-2
Hi guys, :-)

I'm watching the discussion. Looking at all that's been said, I think
it's time for me to take a back seat and leave you guys to lead the
way in a different direction to what I'd suggested.

I'll be there if you need me to do work on content, but I'll wait for
you to make a specific request before I do anything more on the site -
that way, we can be sure that future contribution is properly
coordinated (by the Design team).

David Nelson

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RE: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by nik-2

Hi Nik

1. The website project has no graphic designer on board-why?
2. There is no planned wireframe/icons for home page, and other sets of pages- why?
2. We raced against launch date, missed it and still no graphic inputs-why?

Don't you think someone from your team had to contribute?

If a design team member was there to hold our hand, I'd never need "outside" talent in the first place.
(Assuming that there is such a thing as "outside talent" in an open source project.)
So if I fulfill that gap with a guest artist, why should the design team object?

I never made any talent-comparisons, except to reject the idea of "approving" someone.

> Leaving us with a Design style that we would have no choice but to
> integrate, without having any input.

How did you get this idea?
I have stated that design inputs are essential.
That includes all design standards, including color-palette, dimensions, etc.
No web designer would think of working outside the existing standards and style.
Please point to repository of icons, standards, etc; so that they can be adhered to.

> Did you learn that lesson; how important that feeling of inclusion is?

Well, I am complaining about LACK of Graphic Designer and you are complaining about NON-INCLUSION in the website team.
How is that possible when both sides are so bent on working jointly?
This is comic-tragic. Obviously this is a coordination issue/leadership failure.

Please do not search for any motives- We are terribly short of web designer(s).
The time is running out- The website is far from ready.
And I happened to have access to an excellent source. There is nothing more to it.

Regards,
-Narayan
     
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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

Narayan Aras wrote:

> Please do not search for any motives- We are terribly short of web designer(s).
> The time is running out- The website is far from ready.
> And I happened to have access to an excellent source. There is nothing more to it.

It looks like you continue to put forward your statements as they are
made of gold against everyone else opinion. In seven yers of community
work I have never met anyone as stubborn as you are. Communities works
in a different way. If you do not understand there are excellent books
to read to get a clue about communities. There is nothing more to it.

We have lost hours after your emails. I am fed up.

-100 to any external designer, if he belongs to the category of those
that do not want to understand communities. This is not an enterprise,
it has been different, it is different, it will be different. Sorry, the
difference is not a subject for further discussion.

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Narayan Aras Narayan Aras
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RE: Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)

In reply to this post by bedipp

Hi Bernhard,

> > Inputs from key stakeholders is essential (including marketing,
> > design, UX team AND  copywriters). After that, he would propose some
> > "seed" designs, so that all members can brainstorm. (Normally
> > designers do that to gauge the mood of their clients.)
>
> Sorry - I don't think that anybody here will be able to provide him with
> all the necessary inputs. Either you will have the time to tell him the
> essentials or he will have to find out through our past and present
> activities. Most of them have been collected by website team members,
> when they followed the idea of Drupal implementation, but I don't know
> if anybody has the time to provide your expert with their results.

I started that initiative (NOT part of "Drupal", but phase-2), but we have not yet managed to collect the specific needs of each type of stakeholders (we have identified 23 types of stakeholders in the LibO stakeholders). But the present website mainly addresses LibO-users; and their needs are known. Market-study inputs are awaited from Italo, though.

> Even if he might get a first collection of preconditions, people will
> come and claim their needs afterwards: That's normal reaction to work on
> the area where you have to do most of the work, until another area shows
> possible drawbacks for future activities.

Yes. That happens in any website design, too.
Many people cannot visualize the design in advance, but once a preliminary design is ready, their needs/wants are raised.
In website design, we generally don't follow the waterfall SDLC anyway!

> > Based on the discussion, he would make the final design (HTML code,
> > icons). There may be one or more rounds of this.
>
> Or the team decides to use his work as a basis for *our* final design.
>
> This is an option he *will have to accept*. He is not the only expert in
> this field, but his input is appreciated.

I agree. I believe that in an open source project things ought to be improved constantly.
No one has a right to declare his work to be final/permanent.

> > [...]
> >
> > But there has to be a caveat: Everyone should respect what a
> > web-designer says about his field. Do not try to foist outside
> > concepts on web design.
>
> Sorry, you don't see the central point:
> The website is part of the community - and therefore it might be (not
> necessarily, but I can't preclude it) that there are needs not being
> able to be integrated in his concept.
>
> It's the community who decides about the tools - and web design is one
> of the tools we use for our needs.
> >
> > If there is a disagreement, we settle it by referring to reference
> > literature on UX and web design. (Like the link I quoted.) AGREED?
>
> NO!
>
> If there is a disagreement, every position has to be make understandable
> to the other side, so everybody has to find his way to an agreement or
> compromise.
>
> If the community will not follow your expert's opinion, it's still the
> community to decide what to implement and what to leave.
>
> But: The community doesn't consist of idiots only! So we are capable to
> see the advantages of a good web design.

I suppose that's reasonable.
But if you see the recent argument about adding even more text, I am not so sure whether the website will stay on course.
Domain expertise should be given more weight (That's why the Design team can play a vital role here).

> > If we are clear about our workflow, I can request my colleague to
> > come in and help. I'd like a clarity and consensus on this point, please!

> We have skilled web designers in our team - like Nik - so he will not be
> the only "expert" (and he should avoid to behave so).

I agree completely. The more fruits a branch bears, the lower it bends.
 
> If he can stand discussion and proposals for improvement, leading to a
> collaborative work, he is more than welcome.

> But the final result will be the communities web design - not his
> donation (or how he might call it).

Yes, of course!
 
Best,
-Narayan

     
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Narayan Aras Narayan Aras
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RE: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by italovignoli

Italo,

> > Please do not search for any motives- We are terribly short of web designer(s).
> > The time is running out- The website is far from ready.
> > And I happened to have access to an excellent source. There is nothing more to it.
 
> It looks like you continue to put forward your statements as they are
> made of gold against everyone else opinion.

First, I am NOT alone in looking for a graphic designer.
Don't attack people - Move the discussion in the right direction. Suggest a solution.
Help us solve this. As SC-member, what do you suggest? What will you do to move things?

> We have lost hours after your emails. I am fed up.
First of all you never gave any inputs (or responded) when it mattered. Why crib?
Instead of cribbing, why don't you give us the market insights?

> -100 to any external designer, if he belongs to the category of those
> that do not want to understand communities. This is not an enterprise,
> it has been different, it is different, it will be different. Sorry, the
> difference is not a subject for further discussion.

Is this constructive input? Is this leadership?
Is this marketing input?

And what is this nonsense about "communities"?
If you do have views on how this community works (or should work), share it publicly.


-Narayan
     
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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by Narayan Aras
Hi Narayan, *

Narayan Aras schrieb:
>
> Hi Nik
>
> 1. The website project has no graphic designer on board-why?
> 2. There is no planned wireframe/icons for home page, and other sets of pages- why?
> 2. We raced against launch date, missed it and still no graphic inputs-why?
>
> Don't you think someone from your team had to contribute?

We have to contribute - and we do!

But not in the way and in the timeframe *you* decide to be the right one.

As you mentioned several times, open source communities are different
from corporate development.

Even if there are people with the necessary skills, this doesn't mean
that they can spend more time than possible to the community.

At the moment there are several urgent tasks to be fulfilled for the
Design Team.

If you keep on blaming us not to spend more time in one of these tasks -
being *not at all* the most urgent one (the website now is in a state
that it can be used, even far form optimal) - then Italo is right:

We don't need any more people like you!

Come back to the way adult people - volunteers ! - work with and talk to
each other, then we'll find a way to get this solved.

Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: Re: [libreoffice-website] Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
On 6:59 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Le Fri, 04 Feb 2011 11:12:01 +0100,
> Bernhard Dippold<[hidden email]>  a écrit :
content "snipped"
>> And as this is my personal point of view (but based on years of
>> experience in this community), I'd like others to add a short "+1" or
>> "-1" to this summary showing if I met their point of prioritizing
>> collaboration over single time donation.
> -1 to inviting a new web designer.
>
> best,
> Charles.
-2 to inviting a new web designer.
We are an open-source /project/, not /design orphans/. We don't need
"donations" of graphic design, we need "contributions" made by
/volunteers/ in our *community*.
-Nik

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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by Narayan Aras
Narayan Aras wrote:

> First, I am NOT alone in looking for a graphic designer.
> Don't attack people - Move the discussion in the right direction. Suggest a solution.
> Help us solve this. As SC-member, what do you suggest? What will you do to move things?

Sorry to state the following, you are a *real* waste of time for this
project.

> And what is this nonsense about "communities"?
> If you do have views on how this community works (or should work), share it publicly.

Again, shared not one but probably one hundred times. Again, you are a
waste of time for this community. Please stop. Your address is going in
my killfile as soon as this email has leaved.

I am *totally* fed up. TOTALLY.

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Narayan Aras Narayan Aras
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RE: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by bedipp

Hi Bernhard,

I am sorry to see you take that extreme hardline approach.
Can I count on you to have your normal even-keeled approach? :)

I think you understand that my post pointed out the lack of resource-
not to hurt anyone's professional pride in designing or managing.

I do hope we do not talk about "we, the designers" and "you the website team"
This has to be done jointly.

> We have to contribute - and we do!

> But not in the way and in the timeframe *you* decide to be the right one.

> As you mentioned several times, open source communities are different
> from corporate development.

> Even if there are people with the necessary skills, this doesn't mean
> that they can spend more time than possible to the community.
>
> At the moment there are several urgent tasks to be fulfilled for the
> Design Team.

Yes, we all know that. The moot point is how to proceed.

On one hand you say there are no free resources for the website.
On the other hand you reject the idea of someone doing that work.

What timeframe do you set for the website job, considering the other priority jobs?

Just so that we can plan around that fact...

Regards,
Narayan
     
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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by Narayan Aras
Hi all,

sorry for my late input, but University was more important at the moment.

Am 04.02.2011 um 11:32 schrieb Narayan Aras:

> Hi Nik
>
> 1. The website project has no graphic designer on board-why?

Sorry, what am I? I'm on the Design Team and I'm a Designer. Sooo "no" is a lie.

> 2. There is no planned wireframe/icons for home page, and other sets of pages- why?

Because we will start this work

> 2. We raced against launch date, missed it and still no graphic inputs-why?

They had to do something with the ressources they had. After they did their work, some new people (like me) joined and can give them new ressources and knowledge.
If they didn't done this, LO would be without a Website to this day. (This is the Worst Case Senario for an OSC)

> Don't you think someone from your team had to contribute?
>
> If a design team member was there to hold our hand, I'd never need "outside" talent in the first place.
> (Assuming that there is such a thing as "outside talent" in an open source project.)
> So if I fulfill that gap with a guest artist, why should the design team object?

If we reached the "Design-Phase" we would have asked the Design-Team to join in and help us to realise designs on the wireframes and the other stuff.

>
> I never made any talent-comparisons, except to reject the idea of "approving" someone.
>
>> Leaving us with a Design style that we would have no choice but to
>> integrate, without having any input.
>
> How did you get this idea?
> I have stated that design inputs are essential.
> That includes all design standards, including color-palette, dimensions, etc.
> No web designer would think of working outside the existing standards and style.
> Please point to repository of icons, standards, etc; so that they can be adhered to.
>
>> Did you learn that lesson; how important that feeling of inclusion is?
>
> Well, I am complaining about LACK of Graphic Designer and you are complaining about NON-INCLUSION in the website team.
> How is that possible when both sides are so bent on working jointly?
> This is comic-tragic. Obviously this is a coordination issue/leadership failure.



> Please do not search for any motives- We are terribly short of web designer(s).
> The time is running out- The website is far from ready.

The Website IS ready. But the little baby needs only some help to grow and improve itself. Even without a "designer" this website is not like:
http://www.ideactionmedia.com/IdeactionMedia.html
http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/ (My personal Favorite)
http://www.arngren.net/
http://www.partytentcity.com/

> And I happened to have access to an excellent source. There is nothing more to it.
>
> Regards,
> -Narayan
>    
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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by Narayan Aras
Again hello, this came in a little bit tooo late ;)


Am 04.02.2011 um 13:30 schrieb Narayan Aras:

> [...]

> On one hand you say there are no free resources for the website.
> On the other hand you reject the idea of someone doing that work.
>
> What timeframe do you set for the website job, considering the other priority jobs?

Like I already presented on my "Plan" Proposal (importan:t Proposal and open for improvement) we don't have a timeframe. [*1]
We have a "stop" of big changements for "6 months", but I think if we want to do it right, we will use this time. A normal Website would take some time but to work on it in an OSC will take more time.

> Just so that we can plan around that fact...

Why around?  Plan with this fact!! ;)

Mike (Houbsi)

[*1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Houbsi
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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by Mike Houben
Mike Houben wrote:

> http://www.ideactionmedia.com/IdeactionMedia.html
> http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/ (My personal Favorite)
> http://www.arngren.net/
> http://www.partytentcity.com/

You made my day

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Sergey Tsabolov ( aka linuxman ) Sergey Tsabolov ( aka linuxman )
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Re: Inviting a new web designer to work with us

In reply to this post by bedipp
Στις 04/02/2011 12:12 μμ, ο/η Bernhard Dippold έγραψε:

> Hi Narayan, *
>
> To all: Please read the very last paragraph of this still quite long
> mail and comment with +1/-1 to the summary!
>
> Narayan Aras schrieb:
>>
>> Hi Bernhard,
>>
>> First, thanks for the level-toned and opinion-free response.
>>
>>> [... first approach...]
>>>
>>> But if he is interested in getting information about our needs,
>>> wants to join a collaborative effort to improve the website and is
>>> open to modifications caused by present community experience
>>> (especially in iterative improvements rather than general
>>> overhaul), he is more than welcome to propose his ideas.
>>
>> The first approach is not viable (we NEVER work like that).
>> Approach#2 is how we routinely work.
>
> In this case it's up to him to join our team for a certain time.
>
> He doesn't need to contribute to any other topic, but it is necessary to
> join us on our way to communicate - even if he doesn't like mailing
> lists, this is our main tool.
>>
>> Inputs from key stakeholders is essential (including marketing,
>> design, UX team AND copywriters). After that, he would propose some
>> "seed" designs, so that all members can brainstorm. (Normally
>> designers do that to gauge the mood of their clients.)
>
> Sorry - I don't think that anybody here will be able to provide him with
> all the necessary inputs. Either you will have the time to tell him the
> essentials or he will have to find out through our past and present
> activities. Most of them have been collected by website team members,
> when they followed the idea of Drupal implementation, but I don't know
> if anybody has the time to provide your expert with their results.
>
> Even if he might get a first collection of preconditions, people will
> come and claim their needs afterwards: That's normal reaction to work on
> the area where you have to do most of the work, until another area shows
> possible drawbacks for future activities.
>
> That's one of the reasons you normally need to have more than a slight
> idea of the community you work with.
>>
>> Based on the discussion, he would make the final design (HTML code,
>> icons). There may be one or more rounds of this.
>
> Or the team decides to use his work as a basis for *our* final design.
>
> This is an option he *will have to accept*. He is not the only expert in
> this field, but his input is appreciated.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> But there has to be a caveat: Everyone should respect what a
>> web-designer says about his field. Do not try to foist outside
>> concepts on web design.
>
> Sorry, you don't see the central point:
> The website is part of the community - and therefore it might be (not
> necessarily, but I can't preclude it) that there are needs not being
> able to be integrated in his concept.
>
> It's the community who decides about the tools - and web design is one
> of the tools we use for our needs.
>>
>> If there is a disagreement, we settle it by referring to reference
>> literature on UX and web design. (Like the link I quoted.) AGREED?
>
> NO!
>
> If there is a disagreement, every position has to be make
> understandable to the other side, so everybody has to find his way to
> an agreement or compromise.
>
> If the community will not follow your expert's opinion, it's still the
> community to decide what to implement and what to leave.
>
> But: The community doesn't consist of idiots only! So we are capable
> to see the advantages of a good web design.
>>
>> [...]
>>>
>>> With Pumbaa [1] there is already a staging site.
>>
>> That page does not load! (connection times out)
>
> Not for me - please ask Christian for help.
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>> **** To sum up-
>>
>> If we are clear about our workflow, I can request my colleague to
>> come in and help. I'd like a clarity and consensus on this point,
>> please!
>
> Tell your friend that his input is appreciated - but that the finally
> implemented design might be tweaked/improved by the design team (it
> might be replaced by another proposal too).
>
> We would like it most, if he would take the chance to cooperate with
> us on this point (this would mean joining our group at least for a
> certain time), but we can do it on our own too.
>
> We have skilled web designers in our team - like Nik - so he will not
> be the only "expert" (and he should avoid to behave so).
>
> If he can stand discussion and proposals for improvement, leading to a
> collaborative work, he is more than welcome.
>
> But the final result will be the communities web design - not his
> donation (or how he might call it).
>
> I hope this is quite clear to you and to him.
>
> And as this is my personal point of view (but based on years of
> experience in this community), I'd like others to add a short "+1" or
> "-1" to this summary showing if I met their point of prioritizing
> collaboration over single time donation.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>
I think you right +1

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