Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

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bedipp bedipp
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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

Hi Narayan,

Narayan Aras schrieb:
>
> Hi Bernhard,
>
> I am sorry to see you take that extreme hardline approach.

You don't understand, why I reacted this way?

We are the LibreOffice community - people who spend many hours of their
spare time (during the last months quite too many hours) to make the
OpenOffice.org community independent from one single major contributor.

And you told the Design Team that it should have contributed to the
website instead of doing the hard work more pressing at the time we did
it - even if several of us described why we did it this way.

David had the final decision on the website - and his interest was
different. It was okay that his voice had more weight than anybody
else's, because he had contributed most of the present website.

Since he finally described his aims, the visual approach could be
discussed during the last two days.

*You are not in a position to judge anybody's contribution*

Nobody is - as long as the contribution doesn't hinder other community
members to do their work.

Your *WHY* questions are rhetorical and insulting:

You wrote:
> 1. The website project has no graphic designer on board-why?

Of course there are - several people from the Design Team read this list
and contribute their thoughts and ideas. They have been overruled in the
past, mainly because of time constraints - so they waited for their time
to come. SC decision gave Ivan the last word in graphics contribution:
Do you think they did this just because of his name?

=> Insulting the graphic designers here on the list.

> 2. There is no planned wireframe/icons for home page, and other sets of pages- why?

There have been plans and proposals - did you read the wiki pages
already created and worked on since November? Even if this didn't lead
to results by now - that's how a volunteer community works.

=> Showing you didn't inform yourself properly, you don't really know
about an open source community.
=> Insulting the people actively contributing to the website.

> 2. We raced against launch date, missed it and still no graphic inputs-why?

We didn't miss launch date. We have a website that works, even if it
needs quite a lot of optimization.
=> Insulting David, Ivan, Nik, Klaus-Jürgen and Christian who spent
hours, days and weeks of their spare time in the website. We wouldn't
have one without their effort.
>
> Don't you think someone from your team had to contribute?

=> You tells other people that their priorities are wrong. Please
*never* do something like that in a volunteer community if you don't
show that you see their contributions, explain why you think this way
and state clearly that this is only your personal opinion.
=> You'll drive contributors away from our community with such attitude.

> Can I count on you to have your normal even-keeled approach? :)

If you come back to a positive attitude, I don't have any problems.

But with postings like the one above, I can't but position myself in
front of the community.

You crossed a line - and if you don't understand why, I can't help you.

Best regards

Bernhard

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Nino Nino
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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by italovignoli
On Friday 04 February 2011 14:07, Italo Vignoli wrote:
> Mike Houben wrote:
> > http://www.ideactionmedia.com/IdeactionMedia.html
> > http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/ (My personal Favorite)
> > http://www.arngren.net/
> > http://www.partytentcity.com/
>
> You made my day

+1

*LOL*

Nino

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bedipp bedipp
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Re: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

Nino Novak schrieb:

> On Friday 04 February 2011 14:07, Italo Vignoli wrote:
>> Mike Houben wrote:
>>> http://www.ideactionmedia.com/IdeactionMedia.html
>>> http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/ (My personal Favorite)
>>> http://www.arngren.net/
>>> http://www.partytentcity.com/
>>
>> You made my day
>
> +1
>
> *LOL*

These pages got more visitors today than during the entire last year, I
suppose...

Thanks

Bernhard

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)

In reply to this post by bedipp
Hi *,

before answering - wow, the mails are coming in too fast and it surely
gets heated....

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Bernhard Dippold
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Narayan Aras schrieb:
>>> [... first approach...]
>> Inputs from key stakeholders is essential (including marketing,
>> design, UX team AND  copywriters). After that, he would propose some
>> "seed" designs, so that all members can brainstorm. (Normally
>> designers do that to gauge the mood of their clients.)
>
> Sorry - I don't think that anybody here will be able to provide him with
> all the necessary inputs.

Yes, that's the main problem. I would not have any problem when we
would have a request for a graphic for a special occasion, like
holiday season-banner, etc. I.e. stuff you can create without having
followed the LO-project, where it is easy to summarize the
requirements.

But if it gets from isolated graphics to something that has to work in
the context of other stuff, then you cannot do it without following
the community.

>> Based on the discussion, he would make the final design (HTML code,
>> icons). There may be one or more rounds of this.
>
> Or the team decides to use his work as a basis for *our* final design.

This is exactly what I meant with not being isolated. A graphic
designer might come up with something that looks nice, but doesn't fit
with the community. And then it would end up in wasted efforts - the
designer offered his time creating something that is then not used in
turn. Nobody would gain in this szenario.

> This is an option he *will have to accept*. He is not the only expert in
> this field, but his input is appreciated.

+1 Making suggestions, proposing designs is not wrong, but especially
when it comes to the website, a "hit and run" approach just won't
work.

>> [...]
>>>
>>> With Pumbaa [1] there is already a staging site.
>>
>> That page does not load! (connection times out)
>
> Not for me - please ask Christian for help.

Well - I'm not aware of any problems, esp. not time-out ones. Maybe
you forgot the port?
( http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780 )

>> **** To sum up-
>>
>> If we are clear about our workflow, I can request my colleague to
>> come in and help. I'd like a clarity and consensus on this point,
>> please!
>
> Tell your friend that his input is appreciated - but that the finally
> implemented design might be tweaked/improved by the design team (it might be
> replaced by another proposal too).
> [...]
> But the final result will be the communities web design - not his donation
> (or how he might call it).

Yes. And to keep "friction loss" small, it's necessary to join the
team during the creation phase, have an iterative approach that
involves the community early, before spending days/weeks on details.

> And as this is my personal point of view (but based on years of experience
> in this community), I'd like others to add a short "+1" or "-1" to this
> summary showing if I met their point of prioritizing collaboration over
> single time donation.

Definitely a big +1

ciao
Christian

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)

Hi all,

greetings from Bruxelles :-)

Am Freitag, den 04.02.2011, 17:05 +0100 schrieb Christian Lohmaier:
> +1 Making suggestions, proposing designs is not wrong, but especially
> when it comes to the website, a "hit and run" approach just won't
> work.

+1 Totally agree, especially since the available team is still not
settled yet IMHO.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Mike Houben Mike Houben
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Re: Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
Hi *,

Am 04.02.2011 um 17:05 schrieb Christian Lohmaier:

> [...]
> This is exactly what I meant with not being isolated. A graphic
> designer might come up with something that looks nice, but doesn't fit
> with the community. And then it would end up in wasted efforts - the
> designer offered his time creating something that is then not used in
> turn. Nobody would gain in this szenario.

If we make a List with all points what we want to have, even 1 single Designer should fit it all.  (Continuing at the end).

> [...]
> Well - I'm not aware of any problems, esp. not time-out ones. Maybe
> you forgot the port?
> ( http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780 )

Why the port? It's a real pain...

>>> **** To sum up-
>>>
>>> If we are clear about our workflow, I can request my colleague to
>>> come in and help. I'd like a clarity and consensus on this point,
>>> please!
>>
>> Tell your friend that his input is appreciated - but that the finally
>> implemented design might be tweaked/improved by the design team (it might be
>> replaced by another proposal too).
>> [...]
>> But the final result will be the communities web design - not his donation
>> (or how he might call it).
>
> Yes. And to keep "friction loss" small, it's necessary to join the
> team during the creation phase, have an iterative approach that
> involves the community early, before spending days/weeks on details.

I know this will not be liked by many, but a Webdesign can't be done by to many people. It's one of the golden rules of a Webdesigner or a Graphics Designer in all, if you get to much influence it will be shit. I know, and I'm cracking my head to adopt the normal Designworkflow to the OSC.

I have a proposition (This is in the making for the moment, I have to wait till FOSDEM to fix up some bugs) which would help us all. We should build a little team of the talentest and brightest man we have for the Website. They will propose on the base of the Community 1 or several ideas and will work openly. They will decide some little things in the group, but the community has every time a possibility to interact. (Like this cook thingy says, to many cooks.....).

If anyone wants to join me (through mail/Fosdem/call) it would be grate.


Mike
 


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Narayan Aras Narayan Aras
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RE: Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by bedipp

:) Depends how high we set our standards...Surely we are not racing to the bottom? :)

Look, people have quoted numerous reasons for NOT joining the website-making.
I saw some themes, such as "Drupal", "I'm too busy", "you website guys xxxx-ed to us design guys", etc. etc.

Anyhow, David, Michael and I finished the text on these pages in "Get it DONE" mode.
But that's not how a website is designed. So now we need to switch to the "Get it RIGHT" mode.
This means not just inserting icons in the existing text, but a new IA and wireframe.

It is not for my sake- It is for the LibreOffice, which we want people to think as "the LIBERATED office".

As I said in the beginning, I am not keen to bring an "external" designer.
He is just a available resource who can deliver quality product in shortest possible time.
We can perfectly manage with the available resources if they do the same.

So let us think of reasons why this CAN be done. :)

Thanks for your understanding in advance.
Narayan

> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 15:51:07 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]
>
> Nino Novak schrieb:
> > On Friday 04 February 2011 14:07, Italo Vignoli wrote:
> >> Mike Houben wrote:
> >>> http://www.ideactionmedia.com/IdeactionMedia.html
> >>> http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/ (My personal Favorite)
> >>> http://www.arngren.net/
> >>> http://www.partytentcity.com/
> >>
> >> You made my day
> >
> > +1
> >
> > *LOL*
>
> These pages got more visitors today than during the entire last year, I
> suppose...
>
> Thanks
>
> Bernhard
>
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>
     
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nik-2 nik-2
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Re: RE: [libreoffice-website] Libreoffice.org website dev sitrep 2011-02-02 - [Was: Work on the "Why?" pages]

In reply to this post by Narayan Aras
Narayan,


On 6:59 AM, Narayan Aras wrote:
> Hi Nik
> 1. The website project has no graphic designer on board-why?
By your logic, everyone else has time to be part of every other list.
Their time is expendable, yours is precious right?
Tell me, how many lists are you a part of? Do you practice what you
preach or are you just talking sh!+?
You seem to expect a lot of others and deliver very little yourself.
> 2. There is no planned wireframe/icons for home page, and other sets of pages- why?
There is no search functionality on the LibO site, why?
There is no option for users to log in using facebook connect and
comment on features, why?
There is no website for us Australian LibO users wanting to exchange and
rate wombat and koala templates, why?
There is no option on the CMS to allow users to upload pictures of their
grandma's using Impress, why?

Oh my bad, I should probably work closely with this list regarding these
matters rather than expect that you would read my mind, right?
And I should probably understand that you chaps are busy and my requests
aren't the most urgent matters you deal with, yes?
Geez, that'd be nice of me!
> 2. We raced against launch date, missed it and still no graphic inputs-why?
>
> Don't you think someone from your team had to contribute?
I'm probably wasting my time repeating what others have already told you,
so, -snip-.
> Please do not search for any motives- We are terribly short of web designer(s).
We are not. We have a Design list full. You wouldn't know because you
didn't really want to work with us.
You simply want to bring in someone you know from work and are fond of.
If you need to build a better relationship with your workmates, do it at
work.
Have a beer, shoot some pool, indulge in a little bro-mance, whatever.
LibO is not your social tool.
> The time is running out- The website is far from ready.
> And I happened to have access to an excellent source. There is nothing more to it.
Interesting, time is running out? who decided that? you? has the site
gone offline? have the CSS styles dropped out? is there a meteor heading
towards the LibO servers?
IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE INTERNETS ABOUT TO EVALUATE OUR WEBSITE TO DEEM
IT WEB-WORTHY???
Your matter of urgency seems somewhat self-imposed.
I want the best possible website for LibO as soon as possible much more
than you do, but I have a better understanding of what "possible" means
and I recognise that our community of VOLUNTEERS is working flat-out on
their respective tasks. I wouldn't be a big enough jerk to impose my
priorities onto others, let alone onto other lists.  But you don't seem
limited by these rational concerns.
> Regards,
> -Narayan
>  
Ooooh this is going to be long, but you've wasted so much of everyone
else's time, I don't feel obligated not to waste yours.

...


Of course I feel uncomfortable saying this on a list which is not where
I make my primary contribution to this project, but multiple people have
tried to reason with you, but you're not open to that. Let me put it
simply...

I don't know whether you are genuinely interested in the well-being of
this project, but you don't behave like such a person.
For three reasons;
1. You don't seem to value anyone's opinion but your own.
2. You don't seem to respect people in this community that the community
respects.
3. You don't seem capable of negotiating or understanding that your one
vote does not outweigh the vote of many others.

People have tried to steer you gently in the right direction, or
encouraged you, but your blind faith in your opinion has become somewhat
of a problem. I've been watching quietly for ages, imagine my irritation
that I actually have to write this at all? OpenSource projects have a
fundamental problem in that people who cause delays and argue more than
they contribute *can't* be /told/ to leave, they have to realise it for
themselves that they have become a burden. A /burden/, Narayan. You seem
to be exploiting this loophole a great deal. While I, personally would
love to see you leave for good, I'm sure others would suggest you take
some time out and really contemplate whether you are really in this for
the right reasons; and whether your input is actually benefiting others,
rather than slowing them down.

If you DO decide to return after that time-out (that I suspect you don't
think you need to take), when you come back, *DON'T insult the members
of this community like you have done the last few days*. I'm sure you
think you're making a mockery of some members of this project, but in
truth, all I see is how much *you can't /cooperate/*, let alone
*/collaborate/*. Frankly, you're making an ass of yourself while you
post smiley faces and assume you're being clever. Members like Charles
SCHULZ are founding members of this community, no matter what you say,
they will retain the support and admiration of this community *long*
after you're gone. How DARE you assume you even have the right to
undermine them like you do? what have you done that is SO important that
it demands we listen to YOUR arguments over his? Charles'
responsibilities span the breadth of this entire project, on lists you
haven't even VISITED, and you want him to read every word that YOU
write? *amazing*. Wherever you get your confidence, they must be doing
brisk business with clients the likes of you.

Then there's Italo VIGNOLI, another respected and established member of
the SC that you've been arguing with ABOUT HIS TIME COMMITMENTS TO THIS
PROJECT? I can't begin to tell you how frustrating it is to see someone
new walk in and question someone who has been at this tirelessly for
YEARS! I mean, FOR FU©KS SAKE?!? WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!? You are
talking to people who have dedicated their lives to this before you had
even heard about it. I have never seen Italo lose his cool, he has
always managed to gently persuade people by shining some of his
hard-earned wisdom their way. But I suppose they were all logical and
reasonable people and you're another matter entirely.

More recently, Bernhard DIPPOLD has been very courteous to you, but you
don't listen to his calm suggestions, you just list your terms and
conditions. As if you're someone to be reckoned with. Bernhard is
basically the leader of the entire Visual Design team in this community,
the team whose help you would shun, and if you were truly interested in
any form of collaboration, it would be wise to *not* piss him off,
because the man has considerable sway amongst us Designers. And when we
look to design finalisation, we look to Bernhard and Christoph. Keep
that in mind. Your Design friend *MUST* join this community if he wants
to contribute. Yes,*I'm being perfectly clear*, no ifs or buts, no
misinterpretation possible. Frankly, I demand it. I don't subscribe to
countless mailing lists and iterate my designs with a community because
I have lots of spare time, I do it because that is the proper procedure
anyone follows to be part of this community. *No one is above it.*

You're probably thinking "why is this chap such a LibO groupie?". I
don't expect you to understand, this COMMUNITY is built of people who
have worked at this so hard and for so long that we have mutually earned
each other's respect. It seems like the only community you're interested
in building is a network of mirrors and cameras all pointed at you. Good
luck with that! Even most of the new members seem to understand their
place intuitively and seamlessly integrate. But YOU have a very high
opinion of yourself. Unfortunately, I notice there isn't anyone in this
community to speak up kindly of your contributions and efforts? What
does that tell you? ... knowing you, probably not much.

Several people have responded to Bernhard's poll, not one amongst them
agreed to your external Designer. But you still argue for this cause.
*Against* the wisdom of the established members, *against* the wishes of
the Design contributors, *against* the very team you allege to belong,
*against* the greater good of this entire project. Despite all of these
indications otherwise, somehow, in your head which is so far detached
from the real world, you seem to come to the conclusion that you are
still in the right. That people MUST see it your way because they must
ALL somehow be wrong. Now, you're notorious for not actually answering
the questions people ask of you in correspondence, like you un-skilfully
evaded comment on my earlier hypothetical situation, but I'm just going
to pose this one question to you and that's all you'll have to answer;

Everyone's opinion here is important and all ideas are worth discussing,
but decisions are made, usually by people senior enough to make them
(and yes that IS meritocratic because their seniority comes from
contribution, not time), then we move on and tackle the next problem.
You don't seem to accept decisions, you just argue. So, my question;

*WHAT IS IT, NARAYAN, THAT MAKES YOUR OPINION MORE IMPORTANT THAN
EVERYONE ELSE'S WHO HAS SPOKEN SO FAR?*
I'm dying to know.

If you take just one thing away from this long Email, let it be this:
DON'T INSULT THE WORK ETHIC OR CONTRIBUTION OF THE COMMUNITY YOU WANT
*apparently* TO BE A PART OF!
We respect each other, you have yet to identify a reason that respect
should extend to you. Stop wasting time. Start taking No as an answer.
It happens, deal with it.
If you don't like it, there isn't anyone begging you to stay. To the
contrary, I can see Italo reaching for his shotgun as we speak. I hope
it's sawn-off.


-Nik
If this sounds like a personal attack, I mustn't have been clear how
detrimental I think you are to LibO. You're as useful as Haemorrhoids to
a bike-rider.
I'm sure you're good at what you do. But you're NOT good at this, in
fact, you're terrible. A community, of any kind, is simply not the place
for you.

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Ivan M. Ivan M.
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Re: Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)

In reply to this post by bedipp
Hi Bernhard, all,

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Bernhard Dippold
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> [... many good points]
> And as this is my personal point of view (but based on years of experience
> in this community), I'd like others to add a short "+1" or "-1" to this
> summary showing if I met their point of prioritizing collaboration over
> single time donation.

I probably don't need to say this, but, for the record (and
solidarity), +1 for collaboration over single time 'donation'.

Regards,
Ivan.

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)

Hi, :-)

Just to add my 2 cents:

+1 for collaboration over one-time 'donation'.

Moreover, after the recent threads, I think that the Marketing, Design
and SC people should have a strong influence in shaping the content
that goes on the libreoffice.org site, so that it fits in with their
visions.

For my part, I'll be happy to contribute to the site pages, working to
a collaboratively-established specification as regards IA, what's
said, length of text, etc.

Personally, I'll be holding off from any further work on the site
pages until there's a clear consensus on what's to be done.

It's really time for all of us to stop pulling in different directions
and to work together as a team.

David Nelson

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Inviting a new web designer to work with us (was: LibO website dev..)

http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-02-06/

:-D

David Nelson

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Michael Wheatland-2 Michael Wheatland-2
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Re: Inviting a new web designer to work with us

On 06/02/11 20:29, David Nelson wrote:
> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-02-06/
>
> :-D
>
> David Nelson
>
:)

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