[Libreoffice-qa] Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

El 01/12/13 19:32, Robinson Tryon [via Document Foundation Mail Archive]
escribió:
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Robinson Tryon
...

>  > Here's the list (in alphabetical order):
>  > * blo
>  > * lbz
>  > * libo
>  > * lo
>  > * lob
>  > * lobz
>
> Thanks,
> --R

+1 lobz

Miguel Ángel.

Joren DC Joren DC
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
Robinson Tryon schreef op 1/12/13 19:31:
> Well...looks like it's time to take a vote :P Voting Rules: * Please
> vote for as many of the listed choices as you like (Approval Voting) *
> Per our discussion, I'm reserving 'tdf' for future use * If there's no
> clear winner, we can have a run-off
>> Here's the list (in alphabetical order):
>> * blo
No
>> * lbz
Yes
>> * libo
Yes
>> * lo
No
>> * lob
Yes
>> * lobz
Yes

If I only can make 1 vote: libo

Kind regards,
Joren
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Jochen Schiffers Jochen Schiffers
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
Hi Rob,

Am 01.12.2013 19:31, schrieb Robinson Tryon:
> Well...looks like it's time to take a vote :P Voting Rules: * Please
> vote for as many of the listed choices as you like (Approval Voting) *
> Per our discussion, I'm reserving 'tdf' for future use * If there's no
> clear winner, we can have a run-off
I am voting for "libo"

Regards

Jochen
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Samuel Mehrbrodt-2 Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
I like libo# and lobz#

Am 01.12.2013 19:31, schrieb Robinson Tryon:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Robinson Tryon
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Let's pick a new abbreviation to use for our bugtracker :-)
>> ...
>> If there's no obvious winner after a few days, we can take a vote.
> Well...looks like it's time to take a vote :P
>
> Voting Rules:
> * Please vote for as many of the listed choices as you like (Approval Voting)
> * Per our discussion, I'm reserving 'tdf' for future use
> * If there's no clear winner, we can have a run-off
>
>> Here's the list (in alphabetical order):
>> * blo
>> * lbz
>> * libo
>> * lo
>> * lob
>> * lobz
> Thanks,
> --R
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Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

> Am 01.12.2013 19:31, schrieb Robinson Tryon:
>>> * lo
for the sake of concision I'd prefer that one. remeber that commit
message would contain it aka lo#<nnn>  and real-estate is very sparse
on the 'summary' line of a commit.

>>> * blo
fine size wise... but I just do not associate it with the intented meaning..
prolly because I read blo  as in blow not as below

>>> * lbz
eew! sound like the abbreviation of an obscure imperial unit.. or a
90's boysband :-)

>>> * libo
too long

>>> * lob
common sql accronym: large object

>>> * lobz
too long

Norbert
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Bjoern Michaelsen
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:12 AM, bjoern <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 06:51:55PM -0500, Robinson Tryon wrote:
>> The nice thing with putting everything under a "LibreOffice"
>> bugtracker for now is that if in the future we do decide to migrate
>> bugtracking for TDF-specific web infra to a separate instance, that's
>> going to be a much smaller and simpler piece.
>
> This was what I was thinking of, yep.

I think that should not be 'in the future'. from the start the
libreoffice bugzilla should be libreoffice centric.
tdf-infra has it's own ways and likely will have way different
workflow than lo wrt the handling of these..
and yes, tdf is likely to one day have other product under its
umbrella, so not repeating the fdo situation, just somewhere else...
would be wise.

With the expeirence of setting a large bugzilla up likewe need... it
should not be that hard to creat a separate instance for infra...and
in the future a separate instance for other project that may come
along


Norbert

Note: that is why using lo/libo prefix is not only not an issue but in
fact desirable to associate strongly the bugzilla instance with the
product it tracks...
and as bjoern said.. the prefix is really lo#  and every instance
would be lo#<nnnn> that cannot be confuse with the porduct itself
anymore that fdo#<nnn> can be confused with fdo the org.
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Bjoern Michaelsen Bjoern Michaelsen
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Mon, Dec 02, 2013 at 07:09:06AM -0600, Norbert Thiebaud wrote:
> With the expeirence of setting a large bugzilla up likewe need... it
> should not be that hard to creat a separate instance for infra...and
> in the future a separate instance for other project that may come
> along

Im pretty certain infra wont go with bugzilla though -- currently their
favourite is RedMine. But yeah, the original point made still stands mixing
LibreOffice the product with other issue tracking in the project is likely
unhelpful.

Best,

Bjoern
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:21 AM, bjoern <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 02, 2013 at 07:09:06AM -0600, Norbert Thiebaud wrote:
>> With the expeirence of setting a large bugzilla up likewe need... it
>> should not be that hard to creat a separate instance for infra...and
>> in the future a separate instance for other project that may come
>> along
>
> Im pretty certain infra wont go with bugzilla though -- currently their
> favourite is RedMine.

Yeah, they are notorious for settling on obscure, never heard of (and
never heard of again :-) ) tools, like OTRS, sphynx, etc... :-D

Norbert
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Robinson Tryon Robinson Tryon
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Bjoern Michaelsen
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:21 AM, bjoern <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 02, 2013 at 07:09:06AM -0600, Norbert Thiebaud wrote:
>> With the expeirence of setting a large bugzilla up likewe need... it
>> should not be that hard to creat a separate instance for infra...and
>> in the future a separate instance for other project that may come
>> along
>
> Im pretty certain infra wont go with bugzilla though -- currently their
> favourite is RedMine. But yeah, the original point made still stands mixing
> LibreOffice the product with other issue tracking in the project is likely
> unhelpful.

Until someone in infra tells me otherwise, I'm going to assume that
all of the bugs and bugtracking categories covered under the
'LibreOffice' product on FDO will migrate to the new Bugzilla instance
being set up by Tollef. I'm quite supportive of carving-off all of our
non-LibreOffice-specific bugs and shoving them into a separate
bugtracker, but my thinking here is to focus on one step at a time.

--R
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Bjoern Michaelsen Bjoern Michaelsen
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Mon, Dec 02, 2013 at 08:45:33AM -0500, Robinson Tryon wrote:
> Until someone in infra tells me otherwise, I'm going to assume that
> all of the bugs and bugtracking categories covered under the
> 'LibreOffice' product on FDO will migrate to the new Bugzilla instance
> being set up by Tollef. I'm quite supportive of carving-off all of our
> non-LibreOffice-specific bugs and shoving them into a separate
> bugtracker, but my thinking here is to focus on one step at a time.

Yup.

"Listen, I'm a politician which means I'm a cheat and a liar, and when I'm not
kissing babies I'm stealing their lollipops. But it also means I keep my
options open."
-- Jeffrey Pelt, The Hunt for Red October

Best,

Bjoern
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Tommy Tommy
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 19:31:47 +0100, Robinson Tryon  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> Here's the list (in alphabetical order):
>> * blo
>> * lbz
>> * libo
>> * lo
>> * lob
>> * lobz
>
> Thanks,
> --R
> _______________________________________________


my two votes go to:
lob
lobz

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Eike Rathke-2 Eike Rathke-2
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
Hi,

On Sunday, 2013-12-01 13:31:47 -0500, Robinson Tryon wrote:

> > * blo
No for obvious already discussed reason.

> > * lbz
3rd rank.

> > * libo
No, too long.

> > * lo
1st rank. YES!

> > * lob
2nd rank.

> > * lobz
No, too long. Lobster, anyone?

From my view of a developer who has to type and squeeze these into the
alreay short enough commit summary line.

  Eike

--
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Robinson Tryon Robinson Tryon
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:05 AM, Eike Rathke <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> > * lo
> 1st rank. YES!
>...
>> > * lobz
> No, too long. Lobster, anyone?
>
> From my view of a developer who has to type and squeeze these into the
> alreay short enough commit summary line.

Hi all -- thank you for voting! For those of you who haven't yet
voted...do it! We'll close the voting process at the next QA call.

Here's a quick summary of how the votes have been cast so far:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/LibreOffice_Bugzilla_Proposal#We.27re_now_voting.21.21.21

The devs really like lo# (as it gives them more room in commit
messages), but by a wide margin the only 4-char abbreviation in the
list has taken an early lead.

--R,
thinking that LObster might not be the worst idea for our mascot :-)
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Robinson Tryon
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:05 AM, Eike Rathke <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> > * lo
>> 1st rank. YES!
>>...
>>> > * lobz
>> No, too long. Lobster, anyone?
>>
>> From my view of a developer who has to type and squeeze these into the
>> alreay short enough commit summary line.
>
> Hi all -- thank you for voting! For those of you who haven't yet
> voted...do it! We'll close the voting process at the next QA call.
>
> Here's a quick summary of how the votes have been cast so far:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/LibreOffice_Bugzilla_Proposal#We.27re_now_voting.21.21.21
>
> The devs really like lo# (as it gives them more room in commit
> messages),

Yeah, and it is the dev that have to type it a lot, no ?

>but by a wide margin the only 4-char abbreviation in the
> list has taken an early lead.
Sure, but if you were to ask that question on the dev-ml rather than
here.. I'd bet you you'd get many more vote for lo#

Norbert

PS: btw I don't see the appeal to want to stick characters in there to
re-inforce the idea that it is a bugzilla number... the # in it is
sufficient enough to make that clear
so the b/bz stuff is not only a waste of space.. but also completely
redundant. it is like climbing up or descending down...
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Robinson Tryon Robinson Tryon
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Norbert Thiebaud <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The devs really like lo# (as it gives them more room in commit
>> messages),
>
> Yeah, and it is the dev that have to type it a lot, no ?

Sure -- and people on the Ask site, and QA people in FDO...err....
<insert abbreviation here>, etc..

>>but by a wide margin the only 4-char abbreviation in the
>> list has taken an early lead.
> Sure, but if you were to ask that question on the dev-ml rather than
> here.. I'd bet you you'd get many more vote for lo#

true.

I'd always like to have more devs listening-in on what we talk about
on the QA list...
;-)

>
> Norbert
>
> PS: btw I don't see the appeal to want to stick characters in there to
> re-inforce the idea that it is a bugzilla number... the # in it is
> sufficient enough to make that clear
> so the b/bz stuff is not only a waste of space.. but also completely
> redundant. it is like climbing up or descending down...

Fair, fair. One other thing:
The abbreviation has a secondary purpose: to be used as shorthand for
the bugtracker. Using our two highest-profile options:
"Joel, go take a look at regressions on FDO" => "Joel, go take a look
at regressions on LO"
"Joel, go take a look at regressions on FDO" => "Joel, go take a look
at regressions on LOBZ"

--R
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Robinson Tryon
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Norbert Thiebaud <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> The devs really like lo# (as it gives them more room in commit
>>> messages),
>>
>> Yeah, and it is the dev that have to type it a lot, no ?
>
> Sure -- and people on the Ask site, and QA people in FDO...err....
> <insert abbreviation here>, etc..

sure but the dev need to use the canonical abbreviation because we
have bot that use them to detect association between commit and bugs
that is not the case on Ask for instance

> "Joel, go take a look at regressions on FDO" => "Joel, go take a look
> at regressions on LO"
> "Joel, go take a look at regressions on FDO" => "Joel, go take a look
> at regressions on LOBZ"

How many place could one possibly be looking for 'regression' ... what
confusing meaning lo could have in this context... beside you could
use libreoffice bugzilla or 'salt mines' in that context it would not
matter much... it is human to human interractions... the issue is that
dev have to put stuff in their commit message to talk to Bot
so one cannot be as creative there :-)

Norbert
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:05 AM, Norbert Thiebaud <[hidden email]> wrote:
> sure but the dev need to use the canonical abbreviation because we
> have bot that use them to detect association between commit and bugs
> that is not the case on Ask for instance

technically speaking, the bot could recognize lo# as well as lobz#,
but I am strongly of the opinion that we should have just one
abbreviation! :-)

>
>> "Joel, go take a look at regressions on FDO" => "Joel, go take a look
>> at regressions on LO"
>> "Joel, go take a look at regressions on FDO" => "Joel, go take a look
>> at regressions on LOBZ"
>
> How many place could one possibly be looking for 'regression' ... what
> confusing meaning lo could have in this context... beside you could
> use libreoffice bugzilla or 'salt mines' in that context it would not
> matter much

I think I'll start using 'salt mines' as a euphemism from now on...

>... it is human to human interractions... the issue is that
> dev have to put stuff in their commit message to talk to Bot
> so one cannot be as creative there :-)

true, the bots are kind of annoying in that regard :-)

--R
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:17 AM, Robinson Tryon
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:05 AM, Norbert Thiebaud <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> sure but the dev need to use the canonical abbreviation because we
>> have bot that use them to detect association between commit and bugs
>> that is not the case on Ask for instance
>
> technically speaking, the bot could recognize lo# as well as lobz#,
> but I am strongly of the opinion that we should have just one
> abbreviation! :-)

Agreed.. no argument there :-)
>
>
> I think I'll start using 'salt mines' as a euphemism from now on...

:-D , I thought you'd like it :-)

Norbert
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
Hello Robinson, *

Le Fri, 06 Dec 2013 07:54:07 +0100, Robinson Tryon  
<[hidden email]> a écrit:

> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Norbert Thiebaud <[hidden email]>  
> wrote:
>>> but by a wide margin the only 4-char abbreviation in the
>>> list has taken an early lead.
>> Sure, but if you were to ask that question on the dev-ml rather than
>> here.. I'd bet you you'd get many more vote for lo#
>
> true.
>
> I'd always like to have more devs listening-in on what we talk about
> on the QA list...
> ;-)

You should have cross-posted the vote announcement on all concerned lists,  
then you'd been more votes.

>> PS: btw I don't see the appeal to want to stick characters in there to
>> re-inforce the idea that it is a bugzilla number... the # in it is
>> sufficient enough to make that clear
>> so the b/bz stuff is not only a waste of space.. but also completely
>> redundant. it is like climbing up or descending down...
>
> Fair, fair. One other thing:
> The abbreviation has a secondary purpose: to be used as shorthand for
> the bugtracker. Using our two highest-profile options:
> "Joel, go take a look at regressions on FDO" => "Joel, go take a look
> at regressions on LO"
> "Joel, go take a look at regressions on FDO" => "Joel, go take a look
> at regressions on LOBZ"
>

Well, if you want to mimic fdo, abbrev should be loo (libreoffice.org  
instead of freedesktop.org)
loo is a good trade-off : more than 2, but less than 4; different of the  
standard lo we use to shortcut LibreOffice

BTW, I vote also for lo# if loo# has no access to the vote list ;)

Mat
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Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Mat M <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You should have cross-posted the vote announcement on all concerned lists,
> then you'd been more votes.

What are the 'concerned lists'? i10n? projects? website?  Lots of
people interact with the bugtracker, chief among them, the QA team.

For me, the abbreviation is just one small part of the bigger Bugzilla
migration plan:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/LibreOffice_Bugzilla_Proposal

The reason we're having a vote now is because
Nov 8 - I mentioned abbreviation in the proposal
Nov 10/11 - Discussed abbrevs on the QA list
Nov 18 - QA Meeting decided to ask ESC for input
Nov 21 - ESC offered suggestions; said "the guys doing the work should choose."
Nov 21 - Looked for consensus on QA list
Dec 1 - Saw no consensus; Moving to vote on the QA list

I felt like I was working hard to go through appropriate channels.
Perhaps if I'd spent more time I could've gotten more input from other
groups, but at this point I feel like I've already spent a ton of time
on just this one little piece.

> Well, if you want to mimic fdo, abbrev should be loo (libreoffice.org
> instead of freedesktop.org)
> loo is a good trade-off : more than 2, but less than 4; different of the
> standard lo we use to shortcut LibreOffice

IIRC, in en-GB 'loo' == toilet

(not that there aren't any piss-poor bug reports in FDO right now...)

> if loo# has no access to the vote list ;)

Given that I already outlined the parameters for voting, I'm not sure
it'd be appropriate for me to change them now.

>
> BTW, I vote also for lo#

ok -- vote recorded.


If the devs really want lo#, just send in enough people to vote and
the outcome will be certain.

--R
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