[Libreoffice-qa] Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
48 messages Options
123 « Prev
Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Robinson Tryon
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I felt like I was working hard to go through appropriate channels.
> Perhaps if I'd spent more time I could've gotten more input from other
> groups, but at this point I feel like I've already spent a ton of time
> on just this one little piece.

Yeah, you did well. I'm sorry I apparently started a bikeshed on this...
I have missed ESC of nov 21st (my fault), but 'the guys doing the work
should choose'
is not 'the guys doing the work should organize a beauty pageant election'
On the dev side we are not used to 'vote'. decisions are usually just
taken. When there is some controversy, the interested parties expose
the merit of their respective positions, explaining the rational for
their choice (and I mean _rational_ not _feelings_).
That usually lead to either a compromise to address each other points,
or the parties rallying around the rational of one side (we all have
'opinions' on anything when asked... but more often than not we do not
_care_ that much about a given topic, so unless we have a strong
argument to offer we usually do not demand that our opinions be
counted as strongly as the one of the people intimately involved with
the work and problems associated with it.. iow 'pick your battle
wisely'  :-) )), or more often a combination of both.
in 3 years we where driven to a vote only once.. and even then that
was more to have each position 'on the record'.

So in that light I would point out again the criteria _I_ think are
relevant for the name here:
1/ short. the summary commit message is the 1st line of a commit
message, and is limited to 80 chars (72 preferred), and when a commit
refer to a bug we want the bug reference in that message.
2/ obvious meaning and easy to remember and type, as much as possible.

The opposition I've seen so far to lo# are centered around 'it can be
confused with the abbreviation of the product'. I think that is a
feature not a bug.
in the context of bugzilla the use will always be lo#<number> the #
make it clear that it is a bug number and remove any ambiguity...
furtheremore these _are_ libreoffice bugs.. lo = libreoffice, # = bug
here.  So, other abbreviation may have merit, and may prevails, but
discarding lo# for that reason seems a red herring to me.

for reference a quick grep of the log message give use the following uses:

fdo#nnnn
deb#nnnn
n#nnnnn
#innnnnn#
rhbz#nnnnnn
CID#nnnnn
cp#nnnn
bnc#nnnn
abi#nnnn
i#nnnn
#nnnnn#
lp#nnnnn

and a mix bag of some mistyped variations thereof (like #fdonnnn)


Norbert
_______________________________________________
List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list
Mail address: [hidden email]
Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
matm matm
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
Le Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:31:53 +0100, Robinson Tryon  
<[hidden email]> a écrit:

> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Mat M <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> You should have cross-posted the vote announcement on all concerned  
>> lists,
>> then you'd been more votes.
>
> What are the 'concerned lists'? i10n? projects? website?  Lots of
> people interact with the bugtracker, chief among them, the QA team.

Well, I second on Norbert thoughts, and I was just saying, that, if you go  
for a vote, an announcement to the whole bunch of lists might have brought  
people in, like enlightning Norbert's views.

> For me, the abbreviation is just one small part of the bigger Bugzilla
> migration plan:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/LibreOffice_Bugzilla_Proposal
>
> The reason we're having a vote now is because
> Nov 8 - I mentioned abbreviation in the proposal
> Nov 10/11 - Discussed abbrevs on the QA list
> Nov 18 - QA Meeting decided to ask ESC for input
> Nov 21 - ESC offered suggestions; said "the guys doing the work should  
> choose."
> Nov 21 - Looked for consensus on QA list
> Dec 1 - Saw no consensus; Moving to vote on the QA list
>
> I felt like I was working hard to go through appropriate channels.
> Perhaps if I'd spent more time I could've gotten more input from other
> groups, but at this point I feel like I've already spent a ton of time
> on just this one little piece.

You worked hard, and that was appreciated, don't misunderstand me. But if  
you don't find a consensus on the QA list, you might ask for wider  
audience, so my remark. Not a critic in any way.
You did your best and we ackowledge that.
FWIW, I also appreciate all the bug metrics and follow-up QA provides, it  
is very nice and useful.

>> Well, if you want to mimic fdo, abbrev should be loo (libreoffice.org
>> instead of freedesktop.org)
>> loo is a good trade-off : more than 2, but less than 4; different of the
>> standard lo we use to shortcut LibreOffice
>
> IIRC, in en-GB 'loo' == toilet
Well, I didn't check and that was more of a friday's troll than a real  
proposal.

> (not that there aren't any piss-poor bug reports in FDO right now...)
;-)

>
>> BTW, I vote also for lo#
>
> ok -- vote recorded.
>
>
> If the devs really want lo#, just send in enough people to vote and
> the outcome will be certain.
>
> --R
brace yourselves, lo# is coming

Mat

---
Ce courrier électronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malveillant parce que la protection avast! Antivirus est active.
http://www.avast.com

_______________________________________________
List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list
Mail address: [hidden email]
Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
m.a.riosv m.a.riosv
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
Hi Rob and All,

it is not easy understand what is happening.

We are voting after a right process to do it.
As Robinson wrote:
"
The reason we're having a vote now is because
Nov 8 - I mentioned abbreviation in the proposal
Nov 10/11 - Discussed abbrevs on the QA list
Nov 18 - QA Meeting decided to ask ESC for input
Nov 21 - ESC offered suggestions; said "the guys doing the work should choose."
Nov 21 - Looked for consensus on QA list
Dec 1 - Saw no consensus; Moving to vote on the QA list
"
I think everyone in the project can vote here if they want.

IMHO, we need to finish the voting process, and communicate the results.

If some in the project are not agree, it's fine, they can report to the ESC their reflections and inform their proposal.

In last term The Board can take a decision about what better fits for all in the project.

Miguel Ángel.
Robinson Tryon Robinson Tryon
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Norbert Thiebaud
On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 6:30 AM, Norbert Thiebaud <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Robinson Tryon
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I felt like I was working hard to go through appropriate channels...
>
> Yeah, you did well. I'm sorry I apparently started a bikeshed on this...
> I have missed ESC of nov 21st (my fault), but 'the guys doing the work
> should choose'
> is not 'the guys doing the work should organize a beauty pageant election'

IMHO 'the guys doing the work should choose' means 'we're going to
leave it up to the best judgment of those people to decide'.

I thought that we had a bunch of okay abbreviations, and aside from
tdf# (which I wanted to reserve for future use), all of the other
names seemed good enough to me, and didn't raise any red flags when I
checked-in with the ESC.

So, with that information in hand, I figured that I would ask for
input from QA, first in the form of searching for consensus, and
second (if need be) as a voting process. QA doesn't get to make
decisions like this very often, so I thought it would be something fun
for us to decide as a team.

Alternatively, if we want to interpret this message as ' *only* the
guys doing the work should choose', then that's fine with me, too. By
my reckoning, that list includes

- Cloph (for fixing bots and websites, creating DNS redirects, and
generally putting up with all of my requests)
- Dennis Roczek (for a bunch of detailed bot work translating urls on the wiki)
- Andras Timar (for updating urls in the translations and core git repos)
- Tollef (Doing all of the work on the FDO end)
- Me (for doing a lot of legwork on the migration)
- Some others I've undoubtedly forgotten

> On the dev side we are not used to 'vote'. decisions are usually just
> taken. When there is some controversy, the interested parties expose
> the merit of their respective positions, explaining the rational for
> their choice (and I mean _rational_ not _feelings_).

ok

> That usually lead to either a compromise to address each other points,
> or the parties rallying around the rational of one side (we all have
> 'opinions' on anything when asked... but more often than not we do not
> _care_ that much about a given topic, so unless we have a strong
> argument to offer we usually do not demand that our opinions be
> counted as strongly as the one of the people intimately involved with
> the work and problems associated with it.. iow 'pick your battle
> wisely'  :-) )), or more often a combination of both.
> in 3 years we where driven to a vote only once.. and even then that
> was more to have each position 'on the record'.

ok

> So in that light I would point out again the criteria _I_ think are
> relevant for the name here:
>
> 1/ short. the summary commit message is the 1st line of a commit
> message, and is limited to 80 chars (72 preferred), and when a commit
> refer to a bug we want the bug reference in that message.
> 2/ obvious meaning and easy to remember and type, as much as possible.
>
> The opposition I've seen so far to lo# are centered around 'it can be
> confused with the abbreviation of the product'. I think that is a
> feature not a bug.
> in the context of bugzilla the use will always be lo#<number> the #
> make it clear that it is a bug number and remove any ambiguity...
> furtheremore these _are_ libreoffice bugs.. lo = libreoffice, # = bug
> here.  So, other abbreviation may have merit, and may prevails, but
> discarding lo# for that reason seems a red herring to me.
>
> for reference a quick grep of the log message give use the following uses:
>
> fdo#nnnn
> deb#nnnn
> n#nnnnn
> #innnnnn#
> rhbz#nnnnnn
> CID#nnnnn
> cp#nnnn
> bnc#nnnn
> abi#nnnn
> i#nnnn
> #nnnnn#
> lp#nnnnn
>
> and a mix bag of some mistyped variations thereof (like #fdonnnn)

Up at the top of your email you said:
"I'm sorry I apparently started a bikeshed on this..."

...but the length and breadth of your email belies that
characterization of this particular decision about abbreviations. This
is clearly not a bikeshed decision, or you and Mat would (hopefully)
not be so invested in what abbreviation is chosen.

If it's a big deal, then yes, I agree we should pay more attention to
it. If it's not a big deal, then we go ahead and pick from the list. I
just need to get a clear message, one way or the other.

I'm sympathetic to input from the developers, even at a late stage in
this process, which is precisely why I listened to Eike's comments and
wrote "The devs really like lo# (as it gives them more room in commit
messages)."

Cheers,
--R
_______________________________________________
List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list
Mail address: [hidden email]
Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Robinson Tryon
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Up at the top of your email you said:
> "I'm sorry I apparently started a bikeshed on this..."
>
> ...but the length and breadth of your email belies that
> characterization of this particular decision about abbreviations. This
> is clearly not a bikeshed decision, or you and Mat would (hopefully)
> not be so invested in what abbreviation is chosen.

A bikeshed is when we have very long discusion about something due to
the fact that it is a 'simple' problem, hence everyone feel is his
qualified to give some input...
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality
And yes, I'm guilty of it here... so I'll leave it be for now... if we
end up with xkcd# or lobz# I'll be annoyed, but I'll get over it :-D

Norbert
_______________________________________________
List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list
Mail address: [hidden email]
Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Robinson Tryon Robinson Tryon
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

Hi everyone,

Here are the final tallies from the voting:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2013/December_16#PENDING_ITEM:_Bugzilla_Migration_etc.

blo (1)
libo (2)
lbz (3)
lob (3)
lo (6)
lobz (7)

-----

Separated by just a single vote, lo and lobz are (unsurprisingly) the
favorites :-)

Best,
--R
_______________________________________________
List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list
Mail address: [hidden email]
Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Robinson Tryon Robinson Tryon
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:51 AM, Joren DC <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Robinson Tryon schreef op 17/12/13 13:41:
>> lo (6)
>> lobz (7)
>>
>> Separated by just a single vote, lo and lobz are (unsurprisingly) the
>> favorites :-)
> What about lbz, which is a combination of our 2 top-votes (lo and lobz)?
> lbz was also one of the choises, but it looks like a golden midway
> between the top votes :)?

Sounds fine w/me.

(LBJ isn't as cool a mascot as a Lobster, but I will deal with it :-)

--R
_______________________________________________
List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list
Mail address: [hidden email]
Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Robinson Tryon Robinson Tryon
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Bugzilla Migration: Abbreviation to replace fdo#12345

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Robinson Tryon
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> lo (6)
> lobz (7)
>
> Separated by just a single vote, lo and lobz are (unsurprisingly) the
> favorites :-)

Hi all,

In the voting rules I said "If there's no clear winner, we can have a
run-off." A number of people have decried the process as bikeshedding,
so I'll leave this in your hands: Does anyone want a run-off? If you
do, please ping me by Sunday and we will have one.

Notes:
* Feel free to ping me on- or off-list
* To clarify: We'll have the run-off if 1+ persons request it

Thanks,
--R

P.S. As a side note, the UNCONFIRMED bug count was up by just _2_ at the last QA
Meeting. Everyone in QA been doing amazing work -- let's keep up the
push through the holiday season!
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2013/December_16#UNCONFIRMED_Bugs

woot!  :-)
_______________________________________________
List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list
Mail address: [hidden email]
Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
123 « Prev