[Libreoffice-qa] Toolbar Proposal Completed

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jphilipz jphilipz
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[Libreoffice-qa] Toolbar Proposal Completed

Hi All,

As i have just completed the toolbar proposal that i've been working
heavily on since the beginning of this month, i wanted to share with you
all images of how it has turned out.

Image 1: Removal of less used buttons
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103115

Image 2: Grouping similar items together
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103175

Image 3: Addition of buttons of highly used features
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103420

Image 4: Final mockup with alternative
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103484

It is now in the hands of the UX team to comment on. For those that
would like to read more about it, check bug 81475. Hopefully you guys
can benefit from these findings by customizing your toolbars for QA work. :)

--
Regards,
Jay Philips
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Jochen Schiffers Jochen Schiffers
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

Hi Jay,

good work. Great suggestions. My 2 cents are...

During the installation of LO respectively Tools -> Options -> View
offer two options:
1) proposal as"image 3" and
2) proposal as "image 4"
Reason: some people want "simple", some people want "full" informations.
Everyone now has the opportunity to decide between the two versions and
then adjust the view according to his ideas.

Maybe it even makes sense to offer all four proposals as a selection

Regards

Jochen



Am 26.07.2014 06:08, schrieb Jay Philips:

> Hi All,
>
> As i have just completed the toolbar proposal that i've been working
> heavily on since the beginning of this month, i wanted to share with you
> all images of how it has turned out.
>
> Image 1: Removal of less used buttons
> https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103115
>
> Image 2: Grouping similar items together
> https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103175
>
> Image 3: Addition of buttons of highly used features
> https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103420
>
> Image 4: Final mockup with alternative
> https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103484
>
> It is now in the hands of the UX team to comment on. For those that
> would like to read more about it, check bug 81475. Hopefully you guys
> can benefit from these findings by customizing your toolbars for QA work. :)
>

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Tommy Tommy
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

In reply to this post by jphilipz
On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 06:08:28 +0200, Jay Philips <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> As i have just completed the toolbar proposal that i've been working
> heavily on since the beginning of this month, i wanted to share with you
> all images of how it has turned out.
>
> Image 1: Removal of less used buttons
> https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103115

I think it's up to the user to decide which button he needs and which he  
doesn't.
since anyone can easily customize the toolbar to fit it needs I'm against  
changing the status quo because of arbitrary "less used / most used"  
statistics.

> Image 2: Grouping similar items together
> https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103175

some people would like the grouping, others won't.

for example I prefer to have separate items for each of the text alignment  
rather which I can hit in a single click rather than click on group and  
then click on desired alignment.

if the proposal is to "add" an additional grouped button I can agree (even  
if I would not use it) but I'm against changing the separate items to a  
single grouped button.

IMHO anytime you wanna change something in the UI, you should always allow  
the user to have an option to keep the old behaviour.

>
> Image 3: Addition of buttons of highly used features
> https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103420

same situation of first screenshot. if you have a favourite button you can  
already add it to your toolbar.


> Image 4: Final mockup with alternative
> https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103484
>
> It is now in the hands of the UX team to comment on. For those that
> would like to read more about it, check bug 81475. Hopefully you guys
> can benefit from these findings by customizing your toolbars for QA  
> work. :)

  my bottomline is that there's no need to change the current toolbar UI  
setup since it's already easy to customize it to fit your personal needs.

here's a screenshot of my heavily customized toolbar.:  
http://6g6.eu/sih0-toolbar.png

most of your proposal would have little impact on me.

that's only my 2 cents. don't take it personally.

bye, Tommy

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Owen Genat Owen Genat
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
Tommy wrote
I'm against changing the status quo because of arbitrary "less used / most used"  
statistics.
I tend to agree with this statement for the reasons indicated. Having said that these are my comments:

jphilipz wrote
I would not like to see the "File > New > type" icon (i.e., the very first one) removed. This is a button that I would expect to be used frequently, by many.

jphilipz wrote
Image 3: Addition of buttons of highly used features
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=103420
Is there some reason why the font colour and highlight buttons have been separated from the background colour button? I would prefer to see these maintain their adjacent position.

Overall, a decent effort. Well done.

Best wishes, Owen.
V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Toolbar Proposal Completed

In reply to this post by jphilipz
Jay forgot to add it, but his work up on this is an active BZ issue-- fdo#81475. More on the proposal is detailed there.

Stuart
jphilipz jphilipz
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

Hi All,

I guess i should have been clearer with my initial email. :)

The purpose of my toolbar proposal is to provide most users a good set
of default toolbar buttons, as most users dont customize their toolbar.
And when users dont find the necessary buttons in the toolbar, they go
through the menus looking for the functionality.

My use of the word 'remove' means that it should not be shown by
default, not that it be wiped away. I would never suggest that users who
didnt like the UI arent able to return the buttons that they preferred
to have.

Detailed reasoning of every button that i have suggested their
removal/hiding or addition can be found in fdo#81475 <
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81475 >, along with
statistics on their toolbar usage. Would love to hear feedback from
those who have read the proposal, as of course the images werent able to
fully explain it all.

Thanks Tommy for your customized toolbar, as it has many of the buttons
i have suggested. It also has a suggestion that wasnt included in the
proposal images, removal of the cut/copy/paste buttons. :)

Would love to see customized toolbars from any others in the team, if
you dont mind sharing them. :)

Regards,
Jay Philips

On 07/26/2014 08:26 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote:

> Jay forgot to add it, but his work up on this is an active BZ issue--
> fdo#81475 <https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81475>  . More on
> the proposal is detailed there.
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Toolbar-Proposal-Completed-tp4116760p4116825.html
> Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Jochen Schiffers Jochen Schiffers
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

Hi Jay,

Am 27.07.2014 00:22, schrieb Jay Philips:
> Would love to see customized toolbars from any others in the team <snip>

see www.file-upload.net/download-9277728/toolbar_Jochen_german.png.html

Regards

Jochen (German)
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jphilipz jphilipz
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

Hi Jochen,

Tried to get access to the file but all i get is stupid ads. If you
could upload it to imgur.com, that would be great.

Regards,
Jay Philips

On 07/27/2014 02:45 AM, Jochen Schiffers wrote:

> Hi Jay,
>
> Am 27.07.2014 00:22, schrieb Jay Philips:
>> Would love to see customized toolbars from any others in the team <snip>
>
> see www.file-upload.net/download-9277728/toolbar_Jochen_german.png.html
>
> Regards
>
> Jochen (German)
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Tommy Tommy
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

In reply to this post by jphilipz
On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 00:22:18 +0200, Jay Philips <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I guess i should have been clearer with my initial email. :)
>
> The purpose of my toolbar proposal is to provide most users a good set
> of default toolbar buttons, as most users dont customize their toolbar.

I see only potential issues changing the default set.

experienced UI users would not take any benefit from a change since they  
will keep using their custom preset

unexperienced user who never customized the toolbar could be disoriented  
by the new setup, thinking some buttons have been "removed"

> And when users dont find the necessary buttons in the toolbar, they go
> through the menus looking for the functionality.

if they never customized it before why should they do it after you change  
the default set?
prepare to see useless bug reports about "button" is missing (which is  
not) etc. etc.

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jphilipz jphilipz
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

On 07/27/2014 12:06 PM, Tommy wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 00:22:18 +0200, Jay Philips <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> experienced UI users would not take any benefit from a change since they
> will keep using their custom preset

The advantage would be that they would have less buttons to add/remove
from the toolbars than they usually do, as your toolbar screenshot
showed. :)

> unexperienced user who never customized the toolbar could be disoriented
> by the new setup, thinking some buttons have been "removed"

Well change isnt a bad thing if it makes things better for users, which
is why we have new features added to libreoffice on each release.
Unexperienced users who never use buttons like data sources or
navigator, would benefit from buttons like insert image and insert
footnote. The toolbars havent been update in 9 years and with statistics
on how often users use the toolbar buttons, there are benefits to
revamping the toolbars. And with everyone taking notice of the new
toolbars, they will look at it with a new set of eyes to see what new
functionality has been brought to it.

>> And when users dont find the necessary buttons in the toolbar, they go
>> through the menus looking for the functionality.
>
> if they never customized it before why should they do it after you
> change the default set?

The text you quoted doesnt correspond to your reply. The text you quoted
relates to the current toolbar and when users dont find a suitable
button in it, they go to the menu to get the functionality they need.

Regarding your reply, users who never changed their toolbar would likely
not change the new set, but they have the ability to change it if they
choose, just like they currently have with the current set. You have
stated previously, "I think it's up to the user to decide which button
he needs and which he doesn't." and this choice isnt being taken from
the user with the new set.

> prepare to see useless bug reports about "button" is missing (which is
> not) etc. etc.

Of course a number of users will complain about any change that is made,
this always happens. I had a bug report that a keyboard user was no
longer able to navigate the Character dialog as he used to with a
previous version [bug 80612]:

"... but what I used to be able to do doesn't work anymore, namely press
Tab three times to get to Effects and then press down to get to small
caps: that window doesn't get focus."

With the ability for them to customize the toolbars, they can revert the
changes they wish to revert. Ultimately, you cant please everyone but
the changes are being made to benefit the majority of users. There must
have been people who complained when the toolbars were last changed when
OOo 2.0 was released. You even have users who prefer toolbars and menus
over the ribbon UI, which is why you have addons that bring back this
functionality.
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jmadero jmadero
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

A big +1 to everything Jay wrote. Change in of itself will cause angst for some users but that is the nature of our project. With the tremendous amount of statistics backing Jay's proposal, I give a thumbs up.

That being said - why isn't UX included in on this discussion? This isn't really a QA issue at all ;)


Best,
Joel


On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jay Philips <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 07/27/2014 12:06 PM, Tommy wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 00:22:18 +0200, Jay Philips <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> experienced UI users would not take any benefit from a change since they
> will keep using their custom preset

The advantage would be that they would have less buttons to add/remove
from the toolbars than they usually do, as your toolbar screenshot
showed. :)

> unexperienced user who never customized the toolbar could be disoriented
> by the new setup, thinking some buttons have been "removed"

Well change isnt a bad thing if it makes things better for users, which
is why we have new features added to libreoffice on each release.
Unexperienced users who never use buttons like data sources or
navigator, would benefit from buttons like insert image and insert
footnote. The toolbars havent been update in 9 years and with statistics
on how often users use the toolbar buttons, there are benefits to
revamping the toolbars. And with everyone taking notice of the new
toolbars, they will look at it with a new set of eyes to see what new
functionality has been brought to it.

>> And when users dont find the necessary buttons in the toolbar, they go
>> through the menus looking for the functionality.
>
> if they never customized it before why should they do it after you
> change the default set?

The text you quoted doesnt correspond to your reply. The text you quoted
relates to the current toolbar and when users dont find a suitable
button in it, they go to the menu to get the functionality they need.

Regarding your reply, users who never changed their toolbar would likely
not change the new set, but they have the ability to change it if they
choose, just like they currently have with the current set. You have
stated previously, "I think it's up to the user to decide which button
he needs and which he doesn't." and this choice isnt being taken from
the user with the new set.

> prepare to see useless bug reports about "button" is missing (which is
> not) etc. etc.

Of course a number of users will complain about any change that is made,
this always happens. I had a bug report that a keyboard user was no
longer able to navigate the Character dialog as he used to with a
previous version [bug 80612]:

"... but what I used to be able to do doesn't work anymore, namely press
Tab three times to get to Effects and then press down to get to small
caps: that window doesn't get focus."

With the ability for them to customize the toolbars, they can revert the
changes they wish to revert. Ultimately, you cant please everyone but
the changes are being made to benefit the majority of users. There must
have been people who complained when the toolbars were last changed when
OOo 2.0 was released. You even have users who prefer toolbars and menus
over the ribbon UI, which is why you have addons that bring back this
functionality.
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--
Joel Madero
LibreOffice QA Volunteer


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jphilipz jphilipz
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

Hi Joel,

Well the UX team is already CCed in the bug report and i guess they will
get around to it whenever they do, which i assume will take a while.
Have my fingers crossed that some portions of the proposal lands in
master or the release after that. Definitely think it will help
differentiate LO's look from OOo/AOO. But I was mainly just sharing my
work with the QA team, as it was a happy occasion for me that i was able
to complete it, as this is the team i'm with and welcomed their
constructive criticism of it. :D

Regards,
Jay Philips

On 07/30/2014 12:36 AM, Joel Madero wrote:

> A big +1 to everything Jay wrote. Change in of itself will cause angst
> for some users but that is the nature of our project. With the
> tremendous amount of statistics backing Jay's proposal, I give a thumbs up.
>
> That being said - why isn't UX included in on this discussion? This
> isn't really a QA issue at all ;)
>
>
> Best,
> Joel
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jay Philips <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On 07/27/2014 12:06 PM, Tommy wrote:
>     > On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 00:22:18 +0200, Jay Philips
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     > wrote:
>     >
>     > experienced UI users would not take any benefit from a change
>     since they
>     > will keep using their custom preset
>
>     The advantage would be that they would have less buttons to add/remove
>     from the toolbars than they usually do, as your toolbar screenshot
>     showed. :)
>
>     > unexperienced user who never customized the toolbar could be
>     disoriented
>     > by the new setup, thinking some buttons have been "removed"
>
>     Well change isnt a bad thing if it makes things better for users, which
>     is why we have new features added to libreoffice on each release.
>     Unexperienced users who never use buttons like data sources or
>     navigator, would benefit from buttons like insert image and insert
>     footnote. The toolbars havent been update in 9 years and with statistics
>     on how often users use the toolbar buttons, there are benefits to
>     revamping the toolbars. And with everyone taking notice of the new
>     toolbars, they will look at it with a new set of eyes to see what new
>     functionality has been brought to it.
>
>     >> And when users dont find the necessary buttons in the toolbar,
>     they go
>     >> through the menus looking for the functionality.
>     >
>     > if they never customized it before why should they do it after you
>     > change the default set?
>
>     The text you quoted doesnt correspond to your reply. The text you quoted
>     relates to the current toolbar and when users dont find a suitable
>     button in it, they go to the menu to get the functionality they need.
>
>     Regarding your reply, users who never changed their toolbar would likely
>     not change the new set, but they have the ability to change it if they
>     choose, just like they currently have with the current set. You have
>     stated previously, "I think it's up to the user to decide which button
>     he needs and which he doesn't." and this choice isnt being taken from
>     the user with the new set.
>
>     > prepare to see useless bug reports about "button" is missing (which is
>     > not) etc. etc.
>
>     Of course a number of users will complain about any change that is made,
>     this always happens. I had a bug report that a keyboard user was no
>     longer able to navigate the Character dialog as he used to with a
>     previous version [bug 80612]:
>
>     "... but what I used to be able to do doesn't work anymore, namely press
>     Tab three times to get to Effects and then press down to get to small
>     caps: that window doesn't get focus."
>
>     With the ability for them to customize the toolbars, they can revert the
>     changes they wish to revert. Ultimately, you cant please everyone but
>     the changes are being made to benefit the majority of users. There must
>     have been people who complained when the toolbars were last changed when
>     OOo 2.0 was released. You even have users who prefer toolbars and menus
>     over the ribbon UI, which is why you have addons that bring back this
>     functionality.
>     _______________________________________________
>     List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list
>     Mail address: [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     Change settings:
>     http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa
>     Problems?
>     http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>     Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>     List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
>
>
>
>
> --
> *Joel Madero*
> LibreOffice QA Volunteer
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
>
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sophi sophi
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

Hi Jay, all,
Le 30/07/2014 02:09, Jay Philips a écrit :

> Hi Joel,
>
> Well the UX team is already CCed in the bug report and i guess they will
> get around to it whenever they do, which i assume will take a while.
> Have my fingers crossed that some portions of the proposal lands in
> master or the release after that. Definitely think it will help
> differentiate LO's look from OOo/AOO. But I was mainly just sharing my
> work with the QA team, as it was a happy occasion for me that i was able
> to complete it, as this is the team i'm with and welcomed their
> constructive criticism of it. :D

The UX team is currently migrating his work to Redmine, they will have a
forum here, a wiki, and ticketing. May be you should open a ticket on
Redmine in their area and link to your issue on BZ and then post on
their forum.
Let me know if you need my help :)
Cheers
Sophie

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Gerry T. Gerry T.
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

In reply to this post by jphilipz
Hi Jay, hi all,

thanks a lot for your work with the toolbar proposal.

I had a look at the screenshots and the coments on this list. I would like to add a few comments, too. I also wanted to send it to the UX mailing list, but I could not find Jay's related email there.

First, I like the grouping of icons. I think it is a good idea that everything is accessible and the interface clean. However, I understand the criticism that some people may not find their buttons anymore. Hence, it would be perfect, if there is a super-simple method to permanently add buttons out of a group to the toolbar. The best method would be if the icon from the group can be simply put there by drag&drop. Then the user has his/her preferred icon again on the toolbar. Such an easy mechanism will save lots of headaches on all sides.

There are two icons, I would definitively not remove from the default set.
Please don't remove:
  • "New file" icon which currently is on the top left side of the toolbar. I have seen lots of people using it and it shows the excellent integration of all office components (which is a big plus compared to MS Office!). People will be very confused if they do not easily find their way of starting a new document. Think of the confusion about the "backstage-flower" in MS Office 2007. People had been revolting that they did not find new, open, save and print.
  • "Styles and formatting" currently on the second row left side of the toolbar. If statistically people are not using this button enough, it is a matter to promote this button more, as the reliance on styles is LibreOffice's big strength. (taken from the OSBA-funding site, additionally chart styles and object styles are in development. Table styles in Writer and Calc are still missing, though).

A general question: How does the toolbar proposal integrate with the new sidebar?

Best greetings,
Gerry


Am 26.07.2014 06:08, schrieb Jay Philips:

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pierre-yves samyn pierre-yves samyn
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

Hi

Gerry T. wrote
thanks a lot for your work with the toolbar proposal.
...
First, I like the grouping of icons.
...
The best method  would be if the icon from the group can be simply put
there by  drag&drop
...
There are two icons, I would definitively not remove from the default set.
  * "New file" icon which ...
  * "Styles and formatting"...
I think the same thing Gerry on *all* points.
FYI these two tools are the ones I use most.

Best regards
Pierre-Yves
jphilipz jphilipz
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

In reply to this post by Gerry T.
On 07/31/2014 02:28 PM, Gerry T. wrote:
> Hi Jay, hi all,
>

Hi Gerry,

> First, I like the grouping of icons. I think it is a good idea that
> everything is accessible and the interface clean. However, I understand
> the criticism that some people may not find their buttons anymore.
> Hence, it would be perfect, if there is a super-simple method to
> permanently add buttons out of a group to the toolbar. The best method
> would be if the icon from the group can be simply put there by
> drag&drop. Then the user has his/her preferred icon again on the
> toolbar. Such an easy mechanism will save lots of headaches on all sides.

The grouping of buttons would be a new button and wouldnt replace
existing buttons that aren't grouped, so that users wanting to use the
non-grouped buttons, will still be able to. :)

> There are two icons, I would definitively not remove from the default set.
> Please don't remove:
>
>   * "New file" icon which currently is on the top left side of the
>     toolbar. I have seen lots of people using it and it shows the
>     excellent integration of all office components (which is a big plus
>     compared to MS Office!). People will be very confused if they do not
>     easily find their way of starting a new document. Think of the
>     confusion about the "backstage-flower" in MS Office 2007. People had
>     been revolting that they did not find new, open, save and print.

I think the 'new file' button has benefits, but the stats show the
button is the least used button in the standard toolbar. Why i think
that is the case is that when writer is opened, it starts with a new
file, so there isnt a need at this moment for a user to create a new
one. This is the same behaviour you find in most applications like for
example gedit, audacity, bluefish, glade, openshot, etc.

Also the statistics showed that the majority of users (over 80%) used
the shortcut key to create a new file, as it is a universal shortcut to
create a new file in any application. When users use the shortcut key,
they are creating a new file of the current application that is running,
as most users think that writer is a different application that calc, so
the new file drop down list isnt as used as we'd hope.

The hiding of the icon from the toolbar, does not remove the
functionality in the file menu, which a number of users are using, even
though the button is there in the toolbar (MS Office has no menus).

>   * "Styles and formatting" currently on the second row left side of the
>     toolbar. If statistically people are not using this button enough,
>     it is a matter to promote this button more, as the reliance on
>     styles is LibreOffice's big strength. (taken from the OSBA-funding
>     site, additionally chart styles and object styles are in
>     development. Table styles in Writer and Calc are still missing, though).

Similar to the 'new file' button, the 'styles and formatting' button is
the least used button in the formatting toolbar. The button itself
doesnt need to be promoted, but the usage of styles does, which is why
we have the styles drop down list. Users dont need to open the styles
window in order to apply styles. You also have access to the styles
window through the 'more' entry in the drop down list. The stats do show
that ~70% of users activate the styles window using the shortcut key
(40%) and menu bar item (30%).

> A general question: How does the toolbar proposal integrate with the new
> sidebar?

The toolbar proposal doesnt effect the sidebar because you will have
users who will prefer toolbars and others who will prefer the sidebar
once it does mature enough to replace all the features found in the
toolbars.

> Best greetings,
> Gerry

Thanks for commenting on these issues, but i think most of the answers
here are answered in the bug report proposal <
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=81475 >, which i
hope you'll get time to read through.

Kind Regards,
Jay
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Daniel Hulse Daniel Hulse
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Re: Toolbar Proposal Completed

Hi Jay,

I actually posted an idea here earlier this year about simplifying the toolbars quite a bit. The crowding of the standard toolbar makes LibreOffice as a whole look difficult and ugly, and even breaks some of our design principles. (minimalism, visual-hierarchy) Here's the setup I use: http://i.imgur.com/PzvVL5P.png , although it would be nicer if we were able to add more functionality to each individual button.

Thanks,
Daniel Hulse