[Libreoffice-qa] minutes of ESC call ...

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Michael Meeks-5 Michael Meeks-5
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[Libreoffice-qa] minutes of ESC call ...

* Present
    + David, Bjoern, Michael M, Andras, Norbert, Kendy, Markus,
      Miklos, Robinson, Stephan, Jan-Marek , Lionel, Cloph, Caolan,
      Jacobo, Eike, Michael S, Muthu
 
* Completed Action Items:
    + setup call to co-ordinate new load/save/validate hardware (Markus)
    + stick with the GetSolarVersion plan & put it into the release notes (Marcos)
    + revert boost::rational changes for now (Kendy)
    + poke Taras wrt. UI / telemetry code re-use here (Michael)
 
* Pending Action Items:
    + get a clear use-case & description of what doesn't work vs. master wrt. Calc sorting (JBF)
       [ Work in progress. At the moment I have at least 3 different use-cases:
          # bank account: the sorted range contains a column where each cell contains the same formula (fdo#81633 and fdo#85215)
          # sorting students by their scores: the cells in the sorted column contains formula with functions like AVERAGE() or SUM() (fdo#79441)
          # computing an indicator from data: the cell containing the formula with references is outside the range of cells that is sorted (fdo#45146)
          # I am pretty sure I will find other use-cases ]
AI:    [ poke JBF - what is the status here ? and what to do next ? ]
    + look at regressions associated with a SUSE bugzilla bugfix (Timar)
 
* Release Engineering update (Cloph)
    + 4.2.7 & 4.3.3 released as final today
AI:     + mention calc sorting issue in the 4.2.7 release notes.
        + unclear what went wrong wrt. bug reporting / fixing / on
          that issue and/or how to fix it.
          + Questionable new feature breaks existing workflow / new behavior set as default / new feature backported to stable
    + 4.4 Alpha 1 status
        + horrible problem with calc - not refreshing the background
            + zoom issues etc. a display problem.
            + fixed via a revert.
        + problem building all languages on Windows
            + prolly the PATH limit too: for now building in c:\lo\
            + working on a fix to make it less reliant on v. short paths
        + how did the VS 2013 build go
            + no problems related to this identified yet;
            + do we get issues with earlier CPUs with no SSE2 ?
        + good that we discovered these breakages early (Bjoern)
AI:     + poke at fdo#84854 (Michael)
            + no harm in reverting for now, can always replace.
    + 4.4 Alpha 2
         + planning to do a new tag later this week for testing.
    + 4.4.0 Beta 1 / Feature Freeze
         + due November 17th.
    + 4.3.4 RC1 - Nov 24th
    + Android Remote
 
* Crashtest futures / automated test scripts (Markus)
    + call on Tuesday; new testing hardware.
    + result - get a Manitu server & leave room in the budget for
      ondemand Amazon instances (with spot pricing) if there is
      special need at some point.
    + will migrate when we have the perf. crash. testing & fuzzing,
      and should bring down all the times.
         + perf testing: in 2-3 hours (same day)
         + crash testing: to ~1 day.
    + talked with Matus: a way to notify developers similar to tinderbox.
    + could have bibsect repositories there too (Norbert)
    + and at least 1 VM to try crazy new testing ideas.
    + budget specifically for load/save/validate testing (Michael)
        + any concerns / Bjoern ?
        + lets not let that creep in wildly; test new things,
          but not burn lots of CPU.
    + what was missing - a real comparison of prices ? (Bjoern)
        + comparison happened on the mailing list by now.
    + decision to buy the base-load and dynamically rent the discretionary work.
    + when does it arrive ? (Michael)
        + Florian pinging Manitu wrt. conditions etc.
        + will take 2-4 weeks to get it setup.
    + right after Beta 1-2 will that be a good time ? (Bjoern)
        + mostly just migrating the VM(s) across (Cloph)
        + ~trivial to migrate the workload (Markus)
 
* Crashtest update (Markus)
    + http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/crashtest/013ec10d4e89e86cbd53a88058defb7e97ebaa49/ (25-Oct-2014)
    + still a big spike in DOCX export crashers
        + if no-one beats him: will look into it next week (Miklos)
    + otherwise similar to last week
        + most of the PDF import crashers fixed since last week
    + RTF import & export are now set to zero (Miklos)
 
* Seattle Hackfest (Robinson/Norbert)
    + around 32 people showed up
        + lots of Linux & Mac users showed up, few Windows users
        + lots of interest in getting involved.
        + several people eager to come but couldn't make it - eager to come next time.
    + lots of build work (Norbert)
        + lots of setup / long & heavy etc.
        + got 5-6 new people with builds
    + how did pre-built VM's fare (Michael)
        + a couple of guys used that (Norbert)
        + 1x person on IRC, asked for help with x2go connection (Cloph)
        + saw 1x building & 1x using only.
        + better documentation - good for next time ? (Robinson)
    + VS 2013 express user (Norbert)
        + ran into a problem wrt. wrong SDK; apparently a
          blank Windows 8.1 with VS.Express is not good.
    + badly need ways to stop 'building' consuming the hack-fest (Michael)
        + or a way to keep hand-holding after the hack-fest (Bjoern)
    + lots of people expected to use a VM for build (Kohei)
        + lots of questions, but couldn't help them.
        + many ended up using their machines to build,
          because remote / Amazon VM wasn't setup.
        + students machines, not powerful to build in linear time.
        + getting details of VM's in advance & getting trained
          on these is critical.
        + vast majority of people wanted access to VM
        + monster communication problem with cloph ...
            + Robinson was briefed on how to do that (cloph)
                + Info emailed to hackfest devs (Robinson)
            -> communication droppeded <-
AI:     + work out how to use VM's (ssh bob@1.2.3.4) (all hack-fest mentors)
            + assume next time that all participants need Amazon access (Kohei)
                + students are unfamiliar with the time to compile etc.
    + time to clone the repo - took significant time (Norbert)
        + great / luxury problem to have - lots of attendees (Bjoern)
      https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Events/2014/Seattle_LibreFest
    + would be nice to have some blog-posts / picture posts (Bjoern)
    + would it be better to have a chroot pre-populated ? (jmux)
        + problem not setting up the env. - but building (Bjoern)
        + containing the whole tree / ccache etc. (jmux)
             + a setup change & try things out
        + do need to get them working locally anyway (Michael)
             + can't afford the Amazon VMs indefinitely.
        + could create chroots of builds as we release (Bjoern)
        + reasons built in VirtualBox (Muthu)
             + copy that across & concentrate on hacking instead.
             + VirtualBox runs on Win / Mac too (Michael)
    + Cloph has a kick-start file for the full build env.
        + is it possible to ask releng to build those ? (Michael)
        + icecream can work in the cloud ? (Norbert)
             + not ideal in a hackfest - transferring Gb's (Moggi)
 
* Hackfests
    + Toulouse Hackfest (Arnaud)
        + Confirmed for Nov. 15-16th
        + more details: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Hackfest/Toulouse2014
        + budget reserved (Eur 2k) - poke Bjoern.
    + Munich hack-fest (Jan-Marek):
        http://www.it-muenchen-blog.de/2014/07/bug-squashing-party-2014/
        + jmux (IRC) can add you if you don't want to create an account
        + will have a BSP come-together; if someone says they're coming
          just show up etc.
           + November 21st-23rd, 2014
             https://wiki.debian.org/BSP/2014/11/de/Munich
           + we should drop by with 2 or 3 developers, if possible
    + Need further offers [!] ...
        + propose FOSDEM (Michael/Moggi)
            + and try to get everybody there; Kohei etc.
            + add days after it (to avoid slide overrun)
            + also the month before the release (Bjoern)
            + 31 January & 1 February 2015
        + propose Collabora / Cambridge (Michael)
        + should consider Las Palmas de Gran Canaria/University again (Bjoern)
        + Freiburg - also an option (prolly better in summer anyway (Bjoern)
 
* UX Update (Kendy)
    + wasn't there - but the call took place
    + also paragraph background; voted against removing b/g colour
    + general results from copy/cut/paste survey: not clear yet.
       + discuss at the next call.
    + default option of sorting / reference update (Kohei)
       + query UX there
       + can we get input there.
       + so in master / 4.4 it's just a officecfg setting (Michael)
           + same in 4.3 - 4.3 default is old-style.
       + discuss it in the next UX call (Kendy)
AI: + push the new default to libreoffice-4-2 branch ? (Andras)
       + despite the lack of a release vehicle
           + ack (Eike)
 
* Certification (Stephan/Bjoern/Kendy)
    + consensus approval of new certification candidates
       + happy for them all to have commit access
    + various others in the pipeline ...
       + if you want to get certified - ping Kendy, Stephan, Bjoern
    + are we encouraging people to apply for membership ? (Michael)
       + yes, routinely when we invite for certification and they're not yet members
    + reviewed all expired certifications; will renew all.
 
 * Google Code-In  (Robinson)
    + https://www.google-melange.com/gci/homepage/google/gci2014
       + anyone want to submit an application by November 10th ?
       + sadly deadline by FF & schedule through bug-fixing (Michael)
 
* Bugzilla migration - discuss next time (Bjoern)
 
* QA (Robinson)
    + UNCONFIRMED bug count down to 645
        + big thanks to all our triagers !
        + couple of new people actively helping
        + some concerns wrt. regressions creeping up.
            + this tends to happen when we shrink unconfirmed a lot (Michael)
            + when a bug becomes verified - some will be regression (Norbert)
            + high currently, FF in 3 weeks (Michael)
 
* Interesting QA stats as ratios (Bjoern)
    + bugging him that Writer was leading; is it truly more regression prone ?
        + looked at stats instead as proportion of total bugs filed:
        + more popular components have more regressions
        + all ratios vs. count of confirmed bugs that are open.
 
    These are the components with the highest relative regression ratio:
 
        graphics stack    39%
        extensions        14%
        files and storage 11%
        database          10%
        printing and PDF  10%
        spreadsheet       6%
        draw              6%
        l10n              6%
        chart             5%
        writer            5%
        ...
 
     So writer is not having more regressions than the rest, but likely
     just a bigger userbase (or contain more functionality).
 
     also looked at which components have the most enhancement requests:
 
       impress remote  79%
       ux-advise       72%
       l10n            56%
       UI              42%
       linguistic      34%
       WWW             34%
       formuala editor 33%
       chart           32%
       database        32%
       LibreOffice     32%
       ...
 
     Also interesting are the highest unconfirmed ratios, showing
     either more users than QA or a high presence of heisenbugs:
 
      sdk              86%
      impress remote   43%
      installation     34%
      ux-advise        31%
      BASIC            26%
      extensions       25%
      framework        25%
      printing and PDF 23%
      LibreOffice      18%
      Linguistic       16%
      ...
 
* QA stats:
  + https://bugs.freedesktop.org/page.cgi?id=weekly-bug-summary.html
    +143    -119        (+24 overall)
    many thanks to the top bug squashers:
        tommy27             16
        Beluga              10
        Maxim Monastirsky    9
        Adolfo Jayme         8
        Jay Philips          6
        Miklos Vajna         6
        Jean-Baptiste Faure  4
 
* Open 4.4 MAB
  + 3/16 4/16 5/15 4/14 3/12 3/12 3/12 7/12 3/8 3/8 4/8 4/8 3/7 3/7 2/5
  + https://bugs.freedesktop.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=79641&hide_resolved=1
 
* Open 4.3 MAB
  + 16/64 15/63 16/63 16/60 17/61 16/60 14/59 15/58 12/54 13/53 14/52 14/50
     18%   23%   25%   26%   27%   26%   23%   25%   22%   24%   26%   28%
  + https://bugs.freedesktop.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=75025&hide_resolved=1
 
* Open 4.2 MAB
  + 84/262 82/260 80/260 82/260 86/257 88/257 89/257 91/257 86/252 82/245
     32%    31%    30%    31%    33%    35%    34%    35%    34%    33%
  + https://bugs.freedesktop.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=65675&hide_resolved=1
 
* Bibisected bugs open: whiteboard 'bibsected'
  + 170/441 161/427 153/413 154/410 147/401 143/392 143/389 146/385
    + http://bit.ly/VQfF3Q
 
* all bugs tagged with 'regression'
    + 496(+8) bugs open of 3165(+36) total
        * ~Component   count net *
                Writer - 147 (+1)
           Spreadsheet - 101 (+7)
          Presentation -  34 (+4)
               Crashes -  33 (+3)
              Database -  28 (+0)
                    UI -  25 (+2)
           Libreoffice -  24 (+0)
               Drawing -  23 (-1)
              Graphics -  22 (+0)
               Borders -  19 (-2)
               Filters -  18 (+0)
           Print / PDF -  14 (+0)
                 Chart -  12 (+0)
          Installation -   5 (+1)
            Extensions -   5 (+0)
            Linguistic -   4 (+0)
                 BASIC -   4 (+0)
               Formula -   3 (-1)
             framework -   1 (+0)
                   sdk -   0 (+0)
        Impress Remote -   0 (+0)
  + http://bit.ly/15mM2Yn - for devs ( no NEEDINFO / UNCONFIRMED )

--
 [hidden email]  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot

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Jean-Baptiste Faure-3 Jean-Baptiste Faure-3
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

Hi,

Le 30/10/2014 19:43, Christian Lohmaier a écrit :

> Hi *,
> Am 30.10.2014 17:54 schrieb "Jean-Baptiste Faure"
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>>
>>
>> The timeline seems not be able to show versions before today. Is there a
>> solution or must I redo what I wrote ?
>
> Use the controls for the previous version before attempting to use the
> slider, that way using the timeline should work.

Ah, yes, thank you, I found what I wrote yesterday
http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/esc/timeslider#97066 :

[Use-cases summarized in metabug
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85490
see attachment https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=108546
My suggestions :
   + fix bug fdo#85215 : done
   + change the default value of option UpdateReferenceOnSort from true
     to false for backward compatibility
   + I think that the best would be to have this option locale to the
     sorting dialog instead of global for Calc
     Is it something possible?

That said we have a problem with version 4.2.7 in which it is not
possible to configure how sorting should work]

Main bug reports related to this problem:
fdo#85490 (metabug)
fdo#85614
fdo#81309
fdo#81633, fdo#85215 and their duplicates

Best regards.
JBF

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Kohei Yoshida-7 Kohei Yoshida-7
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

On Thu, 2014-10-30 at 20:00 +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:
>    + I think that the best would be to have this option locale to the
>      sorting dialog instead of global for Calc
>      Is it something possible?

Not unless someone volunteers.  FYI it would require a fair amount of
code change and a change in ODF file format.

Kohei


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Jean-Baptiste Faure-3 Jean-Baptiste Faure-3
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

Le 30/10/2014 20:05, Kohei Yoshida a écrit :
> On Thu, 2014-10-30 at 20:00 +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:
>>    + I think that the best would be to have this option locale to the
>>      sorting dialog instead of global for Calc
>>      Is it something possible?
>
> Not unless someone volunteers.  FYI it would require a fair amount of
> code change and a change in ODF file format.

Is it not possible to have a checkbox in the sorting dialog without
saving its state to the file or not in the file but in the registry ?

JBF

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Kohei Yoshida-7 Kohei Yoshida-7
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

On Thu, 2014-10-30 at 20:13 +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:

> Le 30/10/2014 20:05, Kohei Yoshida a écrit :
> > On Thu, 2014-10-30 at 20:00 +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:
> >>    + I think that the best would be to have this option locale to the
> >>      sorting dialog instead of global for Calc
> >>      Is it something possible?
> >
> > Not unless someone volunteers.  FYI it would require a fair amount of
> > code change and a change in ODF file format.
>
> Is it not possible to have a checkbox in the sorting dialog without
> saving its state to the file or not in the file but in the registry ?

Anything UI related, I'll defer to UX people.  So, no further comment
from me other than what I've already said.

You are welcome to investigate and prove me wrong, of course.  You are
actually encouraged to.

Kohei

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Michael Meeks-5 Michael Meeks-5
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste Faure-3

On Thu, 2014-10-30 at 20:00 +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:
> My suggestions :
>    + fix bug fdo#85215 : done
>    + change the default value of option UpdateReferenceOnSort from true
>      to false for backward compatibility

        So - we punted this default decision to the UX team.

> Main bug reports related to this problem:

        My concern is that I don't have time to waste with interminable ranting
bug comments by all & sundry ;-) or lists of duplicates, or "change
default to this / that" - all of that is in-hand, and it is a ~one-liner
to change the default now [ and perhaps a single unit test change ].

        The only open question is: given what is in master today - are there
-well-defined- clearly specified cases that continue not to work [ with
the default set to the user's preferred state ]. Are there clear
comparisons vs. what competing products do in exactly those corner cases
too ?

        Can we get a tracker for exactly these outstanding issues and no
others ? can each of those issues be a succinct, crisp, clear statement
of a real issue with the current state of master; and nothing else =) or
(more ideally) we can confirm that there are no outstanding issues
[ modulo the non-interesting ones I outline above ].

        Thanks !

                Michael.

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Kohei Yoshida-7 Kohei Yoshida-7
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks-5
On Thu, 2014-10-30 at 16:39 +0000, Michael Meeks wrote:
>     + would be nice to have some blog-posts / picture posts (Bjoern)

I just finished mine.

http://kohei.us/2014/11/03/seattle-librefest/

Kohei

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Michael Meeks-5 Michael Meeks-5
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Re: minutes of ESC call ... - correction ...

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks-5

On Thu, 2014-10-30 at 16:39 +0000, Michael Meeks wrote:
> * Seattle Hackfest (Robinson/Norbert)
...
>     + badly need ways to stop 'building' consuming the hack-fest (Michael)
>         + or a way to keep hand-holding after the hack-fest (Bjoern)
...
>         + vast majority of people wanted access to VM
>         + monster communication problem with cloph ...
>             + Robinson was briefed on how to do that (cloph)
>                 + Info emailed to hackfest devs (Robinson)
>             -> communication droppeded <-

        Incidentally it was just pointed out to me that "monster communication
problem with cloph" could read as some hyper-criticism of him =) that's
by no means the case - as (I hope) the context points out as we started
to dig deeper there were probably several failures of communication /
preparedness on the topic somewhere in the gap between cloph -> Robinson
-> other mentors -> hack-fest attendees.

        My minuting, never perfect was much less than ideal here; sorry for
that.

        We love you cloph ! =)

        ATB,

                Michael.

--
 [hidden email]  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot

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Kohei Yoshida-7 Kohei Yoshida-7
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Re: minutes of ESC call ... - correction ...

On Tue, 2014-11-04 at 11:38 +0000, Michael Meeks wrote:

> On Thu, 2014-10-30 at 16:39 +0000, Michael Meeks wrote:
> > * Seattle Hackfest (Robinson/Norbert)
> ...
> >     + badly need ways to stop 'building' consuming the hack-fest (Michael)
> >         + or a way to keep hand-holding after the hack-fest (Bjoern)
> ...
> >         + vast majority of people wanted access to VM
> >         + monster communication problem with cloph ...
> >             + Robinson was briefed on how to do that (cloph)
> >                 + Info emailed to hackfest devs (Robinson)
> >             -> communication droppeded <-
>
> Incidentally it was just pointed out to me that "monster communication
> problem with cloph" could read as some hyper-criticism of him =) that's
> by no means the case - as (I hope) the context points out as we started
> to dig deeper there were probably several failures of communication /
> preparedness on the topic somewhere in the gap between cloph -> Robinson
> -> other mentors -> hack-fest attendees.

And also, my comment was never meant as a criticism of "someone not
doing the job".  It was rather a simple piece of feedback that I hoped
would be useful for future hackfest planning.

So, let's not take this as a "failure" please.  We had a successful
hackfest, and everybody chipped in what they could.  No need to paint
this negatively.

Kohei

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Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
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Re: minutes of ESC call ... - correction ...

On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 6:29 AM, Kohei Yoshida
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And also, my comment was never meant as a criticism of "someone not
> doing the job".  It was rather a simple piece of feedback that I hoped
> would be useful for future hackfest planning.
>
> So, let's not take this as a "failure" please.  We had a successful
> hackfest, and everybody chipped in what they could.  No need to paint
> this negatively.
>

I would like to add, in a more general sens: the point of these ESC
call is, in big part, to discuss and review 'pain points', thinks that
are causing trouble, hindering work, etc... and to try to find
practical and actionable solutions to re-mediate, improve things... it
is never to 'assign blame'.

So, to all readers of the minutes out there, always assume the former
not the later :-)

Norbert.
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