[Libreoffice-qa] minutes of ESC call ...

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[Libreoffice-qa] minutes of ESC call ...

* Present:
    + Heiko, Armin, Sophie, Kendy, Michael M, Stephan, Miklos, Eike,
      Armin, Christian, Michael S, David

* Completed Action Items:

* Pending Action Items:
    + come up with a concrete, deliverable plan for live-screenshots (Olivier)
    + Developer Certification – next round (Stephan/Bjoern/Kendy/Thorsten)
        [ still pending ]
    + check with Italo, and change the version to 6.0 in configure.ac (Christian)
        [ Board rubber-stamped Marketing’s recommendation of going with 6.0 ]
    + publish deprecation poll on: Postscript printing, Image maps etc. (Heiko)
      => see deprecated features

* Release Engineering update (Christian)
    + 5.4.0 Beta 2 status
      + built, tagged, on the way to mirrors, etc.
      + signing:
          + signed with a new certificate – now DigiCert
          + previous releases were from StartComm
          + this may be something to look out for.
      + late features:
        + Windows support for gpg sign/encrypt
          + has been committed; 1 UI related change triggering dialog
      + feature pages: please update:
        + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/5.4
        also created:
        + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/6.0
    + 5.3.4 RC1 status
      + built last week, on the mirrors.
    + 5.3.4 RC2 update
      + due next week, all going well with the release.
    + Android & iOS Remote
      + no news.
    + online
      + Beta2 source archive synching to mirrors.

   * AppImage - Linux portable edition (Yousuf)
      + Bug report - https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97269
      + moggi said on infra IRC that the decision should likely be talked here
      + would like to setup a download page - http://www.libreoffice.org/download/appimage/
      + appimages can be created by repacking existing builds
         + daily build example - https://github.com/AppImage/AppImages/blob/master/recipes/libreoffice/Recipe
         + Antonio Faccioli‏ is creating scripts for language bundles similar to the windows portable editions
           http://www.libreoffice.org/download/portable-versions/
      + unclear what the future holds here: Snap, FlatPack, AppImage (Michael)
      + no real need for Linux portable edition (Cloph)
         + tar-ball can be unzipped.
      + some people may want it do why not ? (Heiko)
         + up-loading takes time, maintenance etc. (Cloph)
         + if 2 people use it – build it themselves pwrt. daily builds.
      + how is flat-pack hosted currently ? (Michael)
         + build & up-load, and cloph pushes it (Stephan)
             + whenever there is a 5.3.x it is build – following Fresh.
             + no daily build.
      + the request is “become a linux distribution” (Michael)
        + flat-pack doesn’t include the GNOME run-time (Stephan)
        + AppImage sounds like it will include ~everything:
          Gstreamer + all codecs etc. - from some random PC (Michael)
           + can Jay distribute it instead ?
           + how large is it ?
           + AppImage works hard to solve a problem we already solved:
             of being an ISV on Linux – it is hard but solveable.
      + Sad to miss jphilips in the discussion; do it again later ?
 
* Documentation (Olivier)
    + missing Olivier.

* UX Update (Heiko)
    + Bugzilla (topicUI) statistics
        257 (257) (topicUI) bugs open, 473(473) (needsUXEval) needs to be evaluated by the UXteam
    + Updates:
        BZ changes   1 week   1 month   3 months   12 months  
             added      4(-2)    19(2)     38(2)      455(-2)
         commented     44(-8)   217(5)    547(-30)   3494(-6)
           removed      0(0)      0(0)      3(-2)      42(0)  
          resolved      4(1)     12(2)     44(-3)     235(3)  
    + top 10 contributors:
          Philips, Yousuf made 160 changes in 1 month, and 1462 changes in 1 year
          Thomas Lendo made 86 changes in 1 month, and 202 changes in 1 year
          Tietze, Heiko made 61 changes in 1 month, and 1902 changes in 1 year
          Buovjaga made 57 changes in 1 month, and 372 changes in 1 year
          Foote, V Stuart made 18 changes in 1 month, and 612 changes in 1 year
          Henschel, Regina made 18 changes in 1 month, and 137 changes in 1 year
          Cor Nouws made 16 changes in 1 month, and 384 changes in 1 year
          Telesto made 14 changes in 1 month, and 60 changes in 1 year
          Iversen, Jan made 11 changes in 1 month, and 314 changes in 1 year
          Timur made 10 changes in 1 month, and 40 changes in 1 year

  + Discussion about line spacing
    + Patch from Khaled https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/31053/
      aiming to standardize calculation
    + Considered as regression in document line spacing (tdf#105860,
      tdf#104932) and UI line spacing (tdf#107249)
      + line spacing - https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=131016
      + UI line spacing - https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=132669
    + Keep the patch and take backward incompatibility into account ?
    + UI: don’t care (Michael)
    + Documents → matter a lot – but …
      + currently was inconsistent cross-platforms.
      + new behaviour is more interoperable (Miklos)
      + what does backwards-compat mean wrt. An
        inconsistent previous state ? (Michael)
      + outside writer lack of compat-flags (Miklos)
      => defer until Xisco shows up with another view.

* Crash Reporting (Caolan)
    + 1(-3) import failure, 0(-1) export failures
    + oss-fuzz:
       + ww8 fuzzer now active, so 31 fuzzers operating
       + working on adding calc ones next, forgot about stuff like quatropro
    + coverity:
       + its back down to small numbers
         - 11 bugs listed as outstanding

* Hackfests (Bjoern)
    + missing Bjoern.
    + next venues / suggestions
    + Ladies who FOSS ? (Bubli)
    + Berlin meeting (Bubli)
        + Hamburg meeting exploded so to Berlin.
        + German community even/t
        + Weekend of June 23 → 25 – Friday → Sun.
    + openExpo in Madrid June 1st
        + http://www.openexpo.es
        + jani participates – poke him to meet up there.

* mentoring/easyhack update
          committer...   1 week      1 month      3 months     12 months    
                  open       0(-46)      93(-13)     119(0)        124(0)  
               reviews       0(-391)   1424(-335)   4440(-367)   16769(-402)
                merged       0(-150)    633(-177)   2436(-153)    9876(-249)
             abandoned       0(-8)       29(-5)      125(-13)      600(-10)
           own commits     309(96)     1557(62)     4778(17)     16907(-4)  
        review commits      59(-7)      345(-5)     1107(-16)     3513(-24)
        contributor...   1 week     1 month      3 months     12 months    
                  open      0(-16)      48(-3)       57(0)         59(0)  
               reviews      0(-401)   1417(-352)   4900(-384)   19144(-502)
                merged      0(-15)     106(-23)     408(-46)     1090(-23)
             abandoned      0(-2)       11(0)        53(-8)       233(-1)  
           own commits     16(-3)      123(-14)     386(-23)      897(-2)  
        review commits      0(0)         0(0)         0(0)          0(0)  
    + easyHack statistics:
       needsDevEval 24(24)   needsUXEval 0(0)   cleanup_comments 189(189)  
       total 231(231)   assigned 17(17)   open 187(187)  
    + top 5 contributors:
          Carl, Jens made 19 patches in 1 month, and 70 patches in 1 year
          Taneroğlu, Yeliz made 12 patches in 1 month, and 13 patches in 1 year
          Freund, Matthias made 10 patches in 1 month, and 12 patches in 1 year
          Gelmini, Andrea made 10 patches in 1 month, and 101 patches in 1 year
          Kainz, Andreas made 10 patches in 1 month, and 47 patches in 1 year
    + top 5 reviewers:
          Holešovský, Jan made 144 review comments in 1 month, and 717 in 1 year
          Stahl, Michael made 124 review comments in 1 month, and 1322 in 1 year
          Grandin, Noel made 110 review comments in 1 month, and 1268 in 1 year
          Behrens, Thorsten made 90 review comments in 1 month, and 479 in 1 year
          Vajna, Miklos made 84 review comments in 1 month, and 1155 in 1 year
    + big CONGRATULATIONS to contributors who have at least 1 merged patch, since last report:

* Proposals for 5.4 deprecated section (Eike)
    + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Proposals_for_removing_features 
    + finding volunteers to:
       + Writer/Web
           => removing the UI parts to enable it making it hard to find,
              while making it easy to turn off …
           + not a lot of bugs specifically about this (Michael S)
           + who was it that wanted to get rid of it ? (Michael)
              + not me, had to fix bugs around this in online for customers (Kendy)
           + help-authoring uses the same web-view (Heiko)
              + prefer to get rid of features if we can.
          + Eager to make it harder to find (Armin)
          => wait for someone to be interested in doing it.
       + remove Trinity Desktop Environment (TDE) support
AI:       + remove it (Michael S).
       + remove the Linux / gtk2 quick-starter
          + works on Linux as simple access to system-tray (Heiko)
             + issue with 5-6 tickets in KDE bugzilla.
          => waiting for someone to do this.
       + Survey draft:
          + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105860
          + https://survey.documentfoundation.org/492228
          + Olivier had concerns – but missed the call.
          + Thorsten – not removing features based on popularity / voting.
       + Any more comments ?
          + Re-phrasing the level to “Never use it” (Michael)
          + done quickly on G+ / English – have in a week (Heiko)
             + with 100 replies.
             + if localize it – maybe get more replies
             + if we want comments – analysis creates trouble.
               → so don’t do that.
          + should we localize the survey ? Could be done quickly.
AI:          + Build translations for survey (Sophie, Heiko)
               + as soon as it is translated – run it.
    + post-poll results:
       + drop Impress Flash export filter for 6.0 if not used.
    + un-decided:
       + Whatever it is that uses the sfx2/emojiconfig/emoji.json thing
          => drop this.

* GSoC update (Thorsten)
    + missing Thorsten.
    + weekly reports start to show up on the dev list (Miklos)
       + please poke students to send them.
       + Turkish students having trouble with dev ML (Heiko)
          + bounding vs. to-be-moderated (Eike)
          + bounce-back, is not even see.
          + had a look and moderated one report (Eike)
    + first eval is sooner than in the past …
    + timeline:
         + June 26-30: first eval
         + July 24 - second eval
         + August 21- 29: pens down, wrap up
         + August 29 - September 5: final evaluations of students
         + September 6: passing projects announced

* crash reporter news (Xisco)
    + http://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/?days=128 
    + http://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/version/5.2.7.2 
        + 1627 (last 7 days)
    + http://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/version/5.3.3.2 
        + 4535(last 7 days)
    + http://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/version/5.4.0.0
        + 17 (last 7 days)

    + (NEW) Open bugs with a signature : 33 (0)
         + http://bit.ly/2qZIC1H

* Commit Access
    + GSOC ? Some students working through gerrit no problems (Miklos)

* Developer Certification (Stephan/Bjoern/Kendy/Thorsten)
    + 0 week sleep → ping ping ping …
    + magic script has been run to collect names (Kendy)

* Jenkins / CI update (Norbert)

* l10n (Sophie)
    + working away, some feedback on Caolan’s gettext proposal.
    + generally favourable on the topic.
    + helps rapid testing of translations
    + concerns wrt. context, pleased wrt. better plurals.

* QA update (Xisco)

    + Blog Post about QA (Part 2): https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2017/06/07/libreoffice-quality-assurance-six-months-statistics-part-2/

    + Bug Hunting Session: LibreOffice 5.4 Beta2: Friday 9 June
        + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugHuntingSession/5.4.0Beta2

    + UNCONFIRMED: 456 (-20)
        + enhancements: 44  (-2)
        + needsUXEval: 3 (+0)
        + haveBackTrace: 9 (+1)
        + needsDevAdvice: 38 (+3)
        + documentation:  1 (+1)

    + Most Pressing Bugs: http://tdf.io/mostressingbugs
          + New:
                [None]

          + Older:
          + Crash in: SwPageFrame::AppendDrawObjToPage(SwAnchoredObject &)
                + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108118
                    + http://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/signature/SwPageFrame::AppendDrawObjToPage(SwAnchoredObject%20&)

          + Text is invisible, both in UI and in editor on update to 5.3.2,
            older AMD and Intel GPUs
                + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107166
                + bit of a problem ! - bisected to Khaled’s commit in
                  https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107942
                + breaks remote desktops too – some DirectWrite horror ?
                + DirectWrite rendering seems to be the issue.
                + unclear what to do – disabling DirectWrite is far from ideal

          + "CRASH: bad dynamic_cast! after redo operation"
                    + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108124
                + Inherited from OOo, really old.

          + CRASH: Crash after undo operation (BigPtrArray::Index2Block(...
                + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107975
                    + http://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/signature/BigPtrArray::Index2Block(unsigned%20long)
                          + Total: 3470
                + Initially introduced by 2903d85d6197829633d7f96c95cd55821c2c20ff ( Luboš Luňák )
                    + Fixed in 9099e21b89184bd4e39def497e483cac4a77ec5a ( Jan-Marek Glogowski )
                    + reverted by e84f0a9b3223f49b0829f2f55dacbf11ae201c1e ( Michael Stahl )

          + Fixed:
            + "Crash in: writerfilter::dmapper::DomainMapper_Impl::getTableManager()"
                    + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108123
                    + http://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/signature/writerfilter::dmapper::DomainMapper_Impl::getTableManager()
                        + Total: 9
                + copy / paste issue
                + regression since 3.5.
                + Thanks to Miklos!

* QA stats
    + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/page.cgi?id=weekly-bug-summary.html
      +123  +96 (-220) overall)
      many thanks to the top bug squashers:
       QA Administrators       106
       Xisco Faulí             15
       Buovjaga                13
       Thomas Lendo            8
       Yousuf Philips (jay)    7
       Miklos Vajna            4
       Caolán McNamara         4
       Pranav Kant             3
       Julien Nabet            3
       Papamatti               3
       Aron Budea              3
       Ramon Plana             2
       eisa01                  2
       Terrence Enger          2
       Gülşah Köse             2

    + top 10 bugs reporters:
       Yousuf Philips (jay)    11
       Telesto                 11
       Kevin                   8
       Thomas Lendo            6
       Aron Budea              5
       Bernd Brinker           2
       JR                      2
       Olivier Hallot          2
       Volga                   2
       David Fritzsch_LibreOffice 2
       Rodrigo Zimmermann      2
       marcus.knappert         2
       Michael Meeks           2
       christian.rufener       1
       Kevin Suo               1

    + top 10 bugs fixers:
       Yousuf Philips (jay)    11
       Telesto                 11
       Kevin                   8
       Thomas Lendo            6
       Aron Budea              5
       Bernd Brinker           2
       JR                      2
       Olivier Hallot          2
       Volga                   2
       David Fritzsch_LibreOffice 2
       Rodrigo Zimmermann      2
       marcus.knappert         2
       Michael Meeks           2
       christian.rufener       1
       Kevin Suo               1


* Highest-Priority bugs (aka "MABs"):
   + http://bit.ly/2lJAAJI
     5.3 : 4/42 -     9 %  (-5)
     5.2 : 3/36 -     8 %  (-3)
     5.1 : 1/34 -     2 %  (+0)
     5.0 : 2/60 -     3 %  (+0)
     4.4 : 4/76 -     5 %  (-1)
     4.3 : 5/72 -     6 %  (+0)
     4.2 : 6/134 -    4 %  (+0)
     4.1 : 5/82 -     6 %  (+0)
     4.0 : 4/81 -     4 %  (+0)
     old : 28/256 -   10 %  (+0)


* Bisected bugs open: keyword 'bisected'
   + more accurate - down to a single commit.
   + http://bit.ly/2dyIfDy
   + 386/1435 385/1425 384/1410 377/1395 371/1380 374/1374 373/1366

     done by:
        Faulí Tarazona, Xisco   5
        Raal                    3
        Budea, Áron             2
 

* Bibisected bugs open: keyword 'bibisected'
   + http://bit.ly/2cSCXlS
   + 473/2008 470/1994 472/1980 466/1964 453/1941 455/1933 453/1921

     done by:
        Faulí Tarazona, Xisco   8
        Raal                    3
        Budea, Áron             3


* all bugs tagged with 'regression'
   + 831(+4) bugs open of 6030(+21) total 15(+0) high prio.

     done by:
        Faulí Tarazona, Xisco  11
        Buovjaga                5
        Philips, Yousuf         2
        Nabet, Julien           1
        Telesto                 1
        Budea, Áron             1


* ~Component   count net * high severity regressions
   + http://bit.ly/1HWHb3E
     Writer        - 4(+0)
     LibreOffice   - 3(+0)
     Calc          - 2(+1)
     Base          - 2(+0)
     Impress       - 2(-1)
     graphics stack - 1(+0)
     Extensions    - 1(+0)

   by OS:
     Mac OS X      - 5(+0)
     Windows       - 1(-2)
     Linux         - 1(-1)
     All           - 8(+3)


* ~Component   count net * all regressions
   + http://bit.ly/1BUdI8i
     Writer: other            - 139(+3)
     Calc                     - 134(+7)
     Impress                  - 78(-2)
     Writer: docx filter      - 70(-2)
     LibreOffice              - 64(+0)
     UI                       - 49(+0)
     Writer: doc filter       - 41(-1)
     graphics stack           - 40(+1)
     Draw                     - 32(+0)
     Base                     - 32(+0)
     Borders                  - 31(+0)
     filters and storage      - 24(+1)
     Writer: other filter     - 24(+0)
     Writer: perf             - 23(+0)
     Crashes                  - 23(+1)
     Chart                    - 22(+0)
     Printing and PDF export  - 18(+1)
     BASIC                    - 13(+0)
     Extensions               - 5(+0)
     framework                - 3(+0)
     Installation             - 2(+0)
     Linguistic               - 1(+0)
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jphilipz jphilipz
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

Hi All,

Sorry i wasnt able to attend today, so i guess i'll leave my comments by email.

>      + unclear what the future holds here: Snap, FlatPack, AppImage (Michael)

If its Libreoffice future, i believe AppImage will be it, as it provides similar functionality as the portable version found on windows, like

1) not having to install it on your system to run it (aka portable)
2) copying it on a usb and run it on any linux distro (atleast the minimum system that LO supports, something that snap and flatpak cant do)
3) easily running multiple versions (would improve linux QA, as it would also lower that barrier for users to test old versions)

>      + no real need for Linux portable edition (Cloph)
>         + tar-ball can be unzipped.

This is fine for advanced linux users but not for basic linux users, including those from windows or mac. The tar-ball doesnt even come with a simple extract or install bash script, which is why i had to write my own for QA work[1]. This same argument could be said for windows, but we dont tell them to download the .msi file and extract it with 'msiexec /a LibO_<version>_Win_x86_multi.msi TARGETDIR="L:\3.6.0"'[2], so they can run it.

[1] https://pastebin.com/L6SFSYFR
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Installing_in_parallel/Windows

>      + some people may want it do why not ? (Heiko)
>         + up-loading takes time, maintenance etc. (Cloph)

The .tar.gz to .appimage bash conversion script can be run directly on the webserver, so that would eliminate any uploading time.

>         + if 2 people use it – build it themselves pwrt. daily builds.

Quite sure more than 2 people will use it, as i would be one of them, and am quite sure it will benefit the QA team as well. But i guess we can track the download numbers for it to test whether it is beneficial to keep making them or not once they are available. What are the download numbers like for flatpak?

>      + how is flat-pack hosted currently ? (Michael)
>         + build & up-load, and cloph pushes it (Stephan)
>             + whenever there is a 5.3.x it is build – following Fresh.
>             + no daily build.

If the bash conversion script isnt run locally on the webserver, then Antonio is willing to create the appimages and upload them.

>      + the request is “become a linux distribution” (Michael)
>        + flat-pack doesn’t include the GNOME run-time (Stephan)
>        + AppImage sounds like it will include ~everything:
>          Gstreamer + all codecs etc. - from some random PC (Michael)

No the appimage will only include the same files LO bundles in the released .deb and .rpm files found in the .tar.gz. It assumes the users system has the necessary other dependencies on their system.

>           + can Jay distribute it instead ?

If infra doesnt want to host the appimages, Antonio can host them as he does today at < http://libreoffice.soluzioniopen.com/ >, but some may feel that its is not officially endorsed by LO if they have to go off of LO's website to get it.

>           + how large is it ?

The 'English' version of 5.4 beta 2 is 274MB[3], the 'Standard' version of 5.4 beta 2 is 308MB[4] and the 'Full' version of 5.4 beta 2 is 382MB[5]. The 'Standard' version contains the same language files as found in the 'MultilingualStandard' windows portable file and the 'Full' version contains all languages files, similar to the 'MultilingualAll' windows portable file[6]. For comparison, the 5.3.3 snap release is 358MB[7].

[3] http://libreoffice.soluzioniopen.com/pre-releases/LibreOfficeDev-5.4.0.0.beta2_English_x86-64.AppImage
[4] http://libreoffice.soluzioniopen.com/pre-releases/LibreOfficeDev_5.4.0.0.beta2_Standard_x86-64.AppImage
[5] http://libreoffice.soluzioniopen.com/pre-releases/LibreOfficeDev_5.4.0.0.beta2_Full_x86-64.AppImage
[6] http://www.libreoffice.org/download/portable-versions/
[7] https://public.apps.ubuntu.com/anon/download-snap/CpUkI0qPIIBVRsjy49adNq4D6Ra72y4v_19.snap

>           + AppImage works hard to solve a problem we already solved:
>             of being an ISV on Linux – it is hard but solveable.

Appimage tries to solve a major problem on linux, easily running an app on any linux distro, especially new apps on a stable distro. For more information, you can watch opensuse's Richard Brown compare AppImage, Snappy and Flatpak[8], watch the appimage author's presentation at the opensuse conference[9], view the script that converts the .tar.gz to .appimage[10], view a list of the apps that use appimage[12], or check out their website[11].

[8] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1OwX-dNFo
[9] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrWB2OZ9h2Y
[10] https://github.com/AppImage/AppImages/blob/master/recipes/libreoffice/Recipe
[11] https://github.com/AppImage/AppImageKit/wiki/AppImages
[12] http://appimage.org/

>      + Sad to miss jphilips in the discussion; do it again later ?

I will try to attend next week but doubt it will work as VOIP services like hangouts and skype dont function correctly where i live due to the ISP and none of the talk-yo dial-in locations are close by. The only option that works for me presently is jitsi, so if the interested parties are willing to do a session about this there, that would appreciated.

So to move this forward and test the waters, it would be great to setup a page on the website for appimage[13] for the 5.4 beta 2 and link the download links to either an uploaded appimagage on tdf infra[14] or to the one on Antonio's website.

[13] https://www.libreoffice.org/download/appimage/
[14] https://downloadarchive.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/old/5.4.0.0.beta2/appimage/

Regards,
Yousuf
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Michael Meeks-5 Michael Meeks-5
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

Hi Jay,

On 09/06/17 00:10, Jay Philips wrote:
>> + unclear what the future holds here: Snap, FlatPack, AppImage
>> (Michael)
>
> If its Libreoffice future, i believe AppImage will be it, as it
> provides similar functionality as the portable version found on
> windows, like
>
> 1) not having to install it on your system to run it (aka portable)

        The "just run the console and do chmod +x <downloaded-file-name>" that
I see on their front-page is (I suspect) rather a bit of a usability
nightmare ;-) at least initially vs. say an app-store. Some 'technical'
people I know are impressed by command-line use ;-)

> 2) copying it on a usb and run it on any linux distro (atleast the
> minimum system that LO supports, something that snap and flatpak cant
> do)

        Nice.

> 3) easily running multiple versions (would improve linux QA, as it
> would also lower that barrier for users to test old versions)

        I guess.

>> + how is flat-pack hosted currently ? (Michael) + build & up-load,
>> and cloph pushes it (Stephan) + whenever there is a 5.3.x it is
>> build – following Fresh. + no daily build.
>
> If the bash conversion script isnt run locally on the webserver, then
> Antonio is willing to create the appimages and upload them.

        That seems reasonable. I guess it needs an active maintainer who fixes
problems with it - that is not Cloph =) is that you and/or Antonio ?

>> + the request is “become a linux distribution” (Michael) +
>> flat-pack doesn’t include the GNOME run-time (Stephan) + AppImage
>> sounds like it will include ~everything: Gstreamer + all codecs
>> etc. - from some random PC (Michael)
>
> No the appimage will only include the same files LO bundles in the
> released .deb and .rpm files found in the .tar.gz. It assumes the
> users system has the necessary other dependencies on their system.

        This removes my major objection at least; if so - good =)

>> + AppImage works hard to solve a problem we already solved: of
>> being an ISV on Linux – it is hard but solveable.
>
> Appimage tries to solve a major problem on linux, easily running an
> app on any linux distro, especially new apps on a stable distro.

        I guess its useful to some people =) is there a central app-store /
location to find appimages ?

> I will try to attend next week but doubt it will work as VOIP
> services like hangouts and skype dont function correctly where i live

        Is Antonio in a better location for international calls ?

> So to move this forward and test the waters, it would be great to
> setup a page on the website for appimage[13] for the 5.4 beta 2 and
> link the download links to either an uploaded appimagage on tdf
> infra[14] or to the one on Antonio's website.

        Sounds reasonable to me to test this out as experimental for the 5.4.x
release and if it works well for 6.0.

        Any further thoughts Cloph ?

        Thanks Jay & Antonio !

                Michael.

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antonio.faccioli antonio.faccioli
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

Hi Michael, Jay, all

Il 09.06.2017 10:59 Michael Meeks ha scritto:

> Hi Jay,
>
> On 09/06/17 00:10, Jay Philips wrote:
>>> + unclear what the future holds here: Snap, FlatPack, AppImage
>>> (Michael)
>>
>> If its Libreoffice future, i believe AppImage will be it, as it
>> provides similar functionality as the portable version found on
>> windows, like
>>
>> 1) not having to install it on your system to run it (aka portable)
>
> The "just run the console and do chmod +x <downloaded-file-name>" that
> I see on their front-page is (I suspect) rather a bit of a usability
> nightmare ;-) at least initially vs. say an app-store. Some 'technical'
> people I know are impressed by command-line use ;-)
>
>> 2) copying it on a usb and run it on any linux distro (atleast the
>> minimum system that LO supports, something that snap and flatpak cant
>> do)
>
> Nice.
>
>> 3) easily running multiple versions (would improve linux QA, as it
>> would also lower that barrier for users to test old versions)
>
> I guess.
>

I'm using appimage to create the various versions of LibreOffice to use
for client ticket testing.

>>> + how is flat-pack hosted currently ? (Michael) + build & up-load,
>>> and cloph pushes it (Stephan) + whenever there is a 5.3.x it is
>>> build – following Fresh. + no daily build.
>>
>> If the bash conversion script isnt run locally on the webserver, then
>> Antonio is willing to create the appimages and upload them.
>
> That seems reasonable. I guess it needs an active maintainer who fixes
> problems with it - that is not Cloph =) is that you and/or Antonio ?
>

I'm available to help.

>>> + the request is “become a linux distribution” (Michael) +
>>> flat-pack doesn’t include the GNOME run-time (Stephan) + AppImage
>>> sounds like it will include ~everything: Gstreamer + all codecs
>>> etc. - from some random PC (Michael)
>>
>> No the appimage will only include the same files LO bundles in the
>> released .deb and .rpm files found in the .tar.gz. It assumes the
>> users system has the necessary other dependencies on their system.
>
> This removes my major objection at least; if so - good =)
>
>>> + AppImage works hard to solve a problem we already solved: of
>>> being an ISV on Linux – it is hard but solveable.
>>
>> Appimage tries to solve a major problem on linux, easily running an
>> app on any linux distro, especially new apps on a stable distro.
>
> I guess its useful to some people =) is there a central app-store /
> location to find appimages ?
>
>> I will try to attend next week but doubt it will work as VOIP
>> services like hangouts and skype dont function correctly where i live
>
> Is Antonio in a better location for international calls ?
>

Yes, I'm in Italy.

>> So to move this forward and test the waters, it would be great to
>> setup a page on the website for appimage[13] for the 5.4 beta 2 and
>> link the download links to either an uploaded appimagage on tdf
>> infra[14] or to the one on Antonio's website.
>
> Sounds reasonable to me to test this out as experimental for the 5.4.x
> release and if it works well for 6.0.
>

I agree, it seems to me the best way.

> Any further thoughts Cloph ?
>
> Thanks Jay & Antonio !
>
> Michael.

Regards,
Antonio
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jphilipz jphilipz
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

In reply to this post by jphilipz
> Hi Jay, *,

Hi Cloph,

>> 1) not having to install it on your system to run it (aka portable)
> No need to install for TDF builds either.

You would have to extract, which isnt simple for a regular user.

>> 2) copying it on a usb and run it on any linux distro (atleast the minimum system that LO supports, something that snap and flatpak cant do)
> can do that with the TDF builds as well.

You would have to extract, which isnt simple for a regular user.

>> 3) easily running multiple versions (would improve linux QA, as it would also lower that barrier for users to test old versions)
> can do that with the TDF builds as well.

You would have to extract, which isnt simple for a regular user.

>> This is fine for advanced linux users but not for basic linux users, including those from windows or mac. The tar-ball doesnt even come with a simple extract or install bash script,
> Not true, there's and install script that could be used, but even that is not necessary since you can simply extract the packages themselves.

Is true as only the RPM version of the tar.gz file this install or extract script and still isnt geared towards basic linux users.

> with appimage you'd also have to use the console/terminal/whatever to make it executable for example, so whether you have instructions that
read "run chmod +x <file-you-donwloaded>" or tell them to run any other command/one-liner for that matter doesn't really make a difference im my book.

As mentioned before, users dont have to go to the console to make the appimage executable. See video below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzZ6Ikc7juw

Open up the README_en-US file found in the .tar.gz file and there are no instructions on how to extract it and run it without effecting the version installed by the package manager. It does have install instructions which say to run 'sudo dpkg -i *.deb' inside the DEBS folder and how user friendly is this as an installation experience? We could simply provide bash files in the extracted root folder that users could run to simplify both these processes, but unfortunately we dont. If we do not provide an easy means for users to extract or install TDF built .tar.gz files, less knowledgeable users wont run the latest version.

>> The .tar.gz to .appimage bash conversion script can be run directly on the webserver, so that would eliminate any uploading time.
> But it seems that every language needs its own full installset, and that is a no-go for actual redistribution.

No we plan to distribute 2 versions. One with some UI languages or and one with all UI languages, just like the portable windows versions.

>> Quite sure more than 2 people will use it, as i would be one of them,
> Exaggeration to make a point.

No just keeping the discussion friendly. ;D

> And flatpak has a different approach/has repository style backing, but even that is not a general purpose distribution at the moment. And for TDF builds flatpak also has deminshing returns, since the main benefit of the dependencies are already taken care of..

Yes flatpak and snap are comparable as they both have similar goals of making it easy to install an application, while appimage is more focused on portability of the application.


>> No the appimage will only include the same files LO bundles in the released .deb and .rpm files found in the .tar.gz. It assumes the users system has the necessary other dependencies on their system.
> Then no added benefit.

Benefit is in easier user experience.

>> Appimage tries to solve a major problem on linux, easily running an app on any linux distro,
> Again: Already solved by TDF builds by using a baseline that doesn't introduce runtime issues. The major problem doesn't exist for LibreOffice. For other software that is a selling point, but LO already has solved this problem in a different way.

Unfortunately TDF builds dont make it easy for a user to run/install on their system, but yes the baseline does ensure that i could run on most linux distros.

> Just  answer: Why should I convert to an appimage, if I could also could just  create a tarball or iso-image or similar of the extracted rpm packages? Same effect for LO. Add a link to toplevel so people don't need to browse to opt/libreoffice/program to launch, but then it's the same thing, right?

I doubt that you would convert to appimage if you are running a rolling distro (e.g. arch) or a distro that make it easy to get the latest version even on a stable distro (e.g. PPAs for ubuntu), but if you wanted to easily run a new or old LO version, e.g. a user wanted to test how well 5.4 beta 2 works to send in bug reports, or take it around on a USB, downloading the appimage will be the simplest user experience that can be achieved for the average linux user, especially those who dont visit the console/terminal.

Yousuf
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Heiko Tietze-2 Heiko Tietze-2
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

Would say the arguments are on the table. Cloph, what is the drawback of adding appimage to our repo? Time, size, traffic? In your opinion it has only little benefit but when the costs are low that might be acceptable.


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Michael Meeks-5 Michael Meeks-5
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

Hi guys,

On 15/06/17 11:04, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> Would say the arguments are on the table. Cloph, what is the drawback
> of adding appimage to our repo ?

        Can we shelve this, and discuss it in-person at the next ESC call; I've
added it to the agenda already =) I'm hoping to see Antonio there.

        Thanks,

                Michael.

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Antonio Faccioli - LibreItalia Antonio Faccioli - LibreItalia
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Re: minutes of ESC call ...

Hy all,

Il 2017-06-15 15:09 Michael Meeks ha scritto:

> Hi guys,
>
> On 15/06/17 11:04, Heiko Tietze wrote:
>> Would say the arguments are on the table. Cloph, what is the drawback
>> of adding appimage to our repo ?
>
> Can we shelve this, and discuss it in-person at the next ESC call;
> I've
> added it to the agenda already =) I'm hoping to see Antonio there.
>

Sorry, I did not manage to arrive in time. The work went longer than
expected.

> Thanks,
>
> Michael.

Regards
Antonio
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