[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] New: SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] New: SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83830

          Priority: medium
            Bug ID: 83830
                CC: [hidden email]
          Assignee: [hidden email]
            Blocks: 65138
           Summary: SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab
          Severity: enhancement
    Classification: Unclassified
                OS: All
          Reporter: [hidden email]
          Hardware: Other
            Status: UNCONFIRMED
           Version: unspecified
         Component: Writer
           Product: LibreOffice

Created attachment 106236
  --> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=106236&action=edit
Page Tab Mockup

In the properties tab/pane of the sidebar, there is a page section that only
appears in writer. This section could be used in other apps like calc, impress
and draw, but unfortunately there is either not enough space (calc) or the
section doesnt appear when inside a textbox (impress and draw).

So i'd like to suggest the addition of a new dedicated page tab that would
contain the features currently present in the page section, as well as a few
extra features. This new tab would be available to all apps (except math and
base), but a few of the features will need to be dimmed depending on which app
its in.

I have included a mockup of what i think this page could look like and i
welcome suggestions and hopefully a dev that can assist me with its
implementation.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83830

V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|UNCONFIRMED                 |NEW
                 CC|                            |[hidden email]
     Ever confirmed|0                           |1

--- Comment #1 from V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]> ---
@Jay, *,

Implementing an additional tab in the Tab bar to define a new content panel for
the deck is in line with the Sidebar being a dynamic and flexible UI for
organizing tools--as alternative to toolbars.  

A dedicated Page layout & style content panel for the deck does make sense.
Would be a good UI/UX enhancement and being implemented in UI SFX2 should be a
fairly simple implementation.

Setting new. Hope a dev will take it on once design can be agreed to.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83830

--- Comment #2 from Mirek2 <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 106526
  --> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=106526&action=edit
iWork Pages sidebar

(Adding this, since it was the clear inspiration.)

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83830

--- Comment #3 from Mirek2 <[hidden email]> ---
I'll comment on your second mockup
(https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/attachments/download/211/Proposal-page-2-mod.png),
which I prefer.

I'm sorely missing page styles, which should really be the highlight here. A
button offering to update the page style when it changes (a la styles in Pages:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73071#c17) would be great.

Orientation makes more sense as a button, as it's binary.

I'd prefer "Paper Format" as a category heading rather than "Format". "Format"
could apply to any of the properties, the "Paper" part makes it clear what it's
about.

I don't think "Others" should be a section -- try to organize it. I'd suggest
to put Layout, Columns, and Numbers (called "Format" under "Layout settings" in
LibreOffice) under a "Layout" section. I'm not sure about "Background". Is the
background printed with the document, or does it just imply the color of the
paper to print on? If it's the latter, then I'd suggest Paper Format. Then
again, since you didn't include all page properties, I'm thinking Background is
one of the least important items to include. I wouldn't include it, at least
not in Writer.

Lastly, I think designing a one-size-fits-all Page panel is suboptimal (e.g.
not all modules have page styles). I'd suggest to look at each module
individually and propose one for each (keeping the same structure, though).

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83830

--- Comment #4 from Jay Philips <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 106529
  --> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=106529&action=edit
Page Tab Mockup - Update 1

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83830

--- Comment #5 from Jay Philips <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to comment #2)
> (Adding this, since it was the clear inspiration.)

Yes iWork Pages was the primary inspiration for the mockup.

(In reply to comment #3)
> I'm sorely missing page styles, which should really be the highlight here. A
> button offering to update the page style when it changes (a la styles in
> Pages: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73071#c17) would be
> great.

A page styles drop down isnt needed as a user can easily change the page's
assigned page style in the statusbar and 'styles and formatting' tab. When
users are modifying the data in the page tab, they are modifying the style. :)

> Orientation makes more sense as a button, as it's binary.

Yes it is binary, but it would simply take up 2 lines for no real benefit.

> I'd prefer "Paper Format" as a category heading rather than "Format".
> "Format" could apply to any of the properties, the "Paper" part makes it
> clear what it's about.

The heading of the tab is 'Page', so it is to be understood that 'Format' is
'Page Format'.

> I don't think "Others" should be a section -- try to organize it. I'd
> suggest to put Layout, Columns, and Numbers (called "Format" under "Layout
> settings" in LibreOffice) under a "Layout" section.

'Others' is the temporary label i've gone with the for the time being as
something more useful hasnt popped to mind. 'Layout' isnt suitable as there is
already a Layout entry.

> I'm not sure about
> "Background". Is the background printed with the document, or does it just
> imply the color of the paper to print on? If it's the latter, then I'd
> suggest Paper Format. Then again, since you didn't include all page
> properties, I'm thinking Background is one of the least important items to
> include. I wouldn't include it, at least not in Writer.

Background is from the background/area tab in the page style drop down. It is
useful as it is highly used in impress and draw.

> Lastly, I think designing a one-size-fits-all Page panel is suboptimal (e.g.
> not all modules have page styles). I'd suggest to look at each module
> individually and propose one for each (keeping the same structure, though).

There isnt a need to make multiple ones because very little is being changed
between the modules, as can be seen in attachment 106236. I have also removed
header and footer details from the 'Others' section, as it wont be utilized in
impress and draw, so it wont be shown there.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83830

--- Comment #6 from Jean-Francois Nifenecker <[hidden email]> ---
I like the latest mockup.
The question is still: should the Page tab be a full replacement/alternative to
the Format>Page dialog? IOW, what about accessing the header and footer
properties, page background, page footnotes, etc?
As it is, it seems an half-baked solution which I would avoid to go the
Format>Page dialog because of the completeness I'm looking for.

Side suggestion: have keyboard shortcuts to call each of the individual the
Sidebar panels is a requirement.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83830

--- Comment #7 from Mirek2 <[hidden email]> ---
Hi again,

(In reply to comment #5)
> (In reply to comment #3)
> > I'm sorely missing page styles, which should really be the highlight here. A
> > button offering to update the page style when it changes (a la styles in
> > Pages: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73071#c17) would be
> > great.
>
> A page styles drop down isnt needed as a user can easily change the page's
> assigned page style in the statusbar and 'styles and formatting' tab.

The statusbar is a terrible place to set the page style at -- I hope that
element gets removed, because the status bar really should be about showing
status, not setting options.

Yes, it's also under "Styles and Formatting", but given that this is a Page
properties panel, the current page style belongs here as well.

> When users are modifying the data in the page tab, they are modifying the style.
> :)

Though it seems counter-intuitive based on how other styles work, you're right.

> > Orientation makes more sense as a button, as it's binary.
>
> Yes it is binary, but it would simply take up 2 lines for no real benefit.

Why would it take up 2 lines? All that's needed is a button that reads "Switch
to Portrait Orientation" when in landscape orientation and "Switch to Landscape
Orientation" when in portrait.

The benefit here is the much simpler interaction -- a simple click rather than
click, move mouse, click again.

> > I'd prefer "Paper Format" as a category heading rather than "Format".
> > "Format" could apply to any of the properties, the "Paper" part makes it
> > clear what it's about.
>
> The heading of the tab is 'Page', so it is to be understood that 'Format' is
> 'Page Format'.

That's why I said "Paper Format" -- these are properties related to the paper
you'll be printing on.

> > I don't think "Others" should be a section -- try to organize it. I'd
> > suggest to put Layout, Columns, and Numbers (called "Format" under "Layout
> > settings" in LibreOffice) under a "Layout" section.
>
> 'Others' is the temporary label i've gone with the for the time being as
> something more useful hasnt popped to mind. 'Layout' isnt suitable as there
> is already a Layout entry.

In the formatting dialog, "Page layout" is an entry under "Layout settings".
You could do the same thing.

>
> > I'm not sure about
> > "Background". Is the background printed with the document, or does it just
> > imply the color of the paper to print on? If it's the latter, then I'd
> > suggest Paper Format. Then again, since you didn't include all page
> > properties, I'm thinking Background is one of the least important items to
> > include. I wouldn't include it, at least not in Writer.
>
> Background is from the background/area tab in the page style drop down. It
> is useful as it is highly used in impress and draw.

That's why I suggested to make separate mockups for different modules. Writer
is primarily about printable pages of text, so it's useful to know whether the
background will be printed or not (please answer my question about that).
Impress and Draw tend to be presented on-screen and it generally always makes
sense to print the slide background along with the slide, since it's such an
inseparable part of the slide.

> > Lastly, I think designing a one-size-fits-all Page panel is suboptimal (e.g.
> > not all modules have page styles). I'd suggest to look at each module
> > individually and propose one for each (keeping the same structure, though).
>
> There isnt a need to make multiple ones because very little is being changed
> between the modules, as can be seen in attachment 106236 [details]. I have
> also removed header and footer details from the 'Others' section, as it wont
> be utilized in impress and draw, so it wont be shown there.

But the prioritization is different. For example, margins are much more
important than the page background in Writer, but the opposite is true in
Impress.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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--- Comment #8 from Jay Philips <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 106564
  --> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=106564&action=edit
Page Tab Mockup - Update 2

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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--- Comment #9 from Jay Philips <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to comment #6)
> I like the latest mockup.

Glad you like it and hope you like the latest one more.

> The question is still: should the Page tab be a full replacement/alternative
> to the Format>Page dialog?

It is not possible for it to be a full replacement for the Format > Page dialog
in writer or calc, because the dialog has way to much information that couldnt
be packed into such a small sidebar area. It can replace the dialog in impress
and draw, as they only have 2 tabs in the dialog - page, background.

> IOW, what about accessing the header and footer
> properties, page background, page footnotes, etc?

With new sections for header and footer in the latest mockup, it will be
possible to jump into those particular tabs in the dialog.

> As it is, it seems an half-baked solution which I would avoid to go the
> Format>Page dialog because of the completeness I'm looking for.

You cant please everyone with things added to the sidebar, as you cant fit
everything in it, but you can attempt to fit the most used features. If you
look at the text properties tab, you have sections for character and paragraph.
These sections do not contain everything that is available in the character and
paragraph dialogs, but are still useful rather than opening up those dialogs
for commonly used features.

> Side suggestion: have keyboard shortcuts to call each of the individual the
> Sidebar panels is a requirement.

I think that is a good idea and you should file a new bug enhancement for it.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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--- Comment #10 from Jay Philips <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to comment #7)
> Hi again,

Hey Mirek,

> The statusbar is a terrible place to set the page style at -- I hope that
> element gets removed, because the status bar really should be about showing
> status, not setting options.

I think its a convenient way to set it rather than having to go into the
'Styles and Formatting' dialog to do it there. As you feel that the statusbar
shouldnt be used to set status, are you also looking to have the zoom slider
removed.

> Yes, it's also under "Styles and Formatting", but given that this is a Page
> properties panel, the current page style belongs here as well.

This is a page style properties panel for the modification of the current page
style, in the same way that the page style dialog modifies the currently set
page style.

> Though it seems counter-intuitive based on how other styles work, you're
> right.

Yep page styles are a funny thing when you compare it with paragraph and
character styles.

> Why would it take up 2 lines? All that's needed is a button that reads
> "Switch to Portrait Orientation" when in landscape orientation and "Switch
> to Landscape Orientation" when in portrait.

Well i was going with the idea that it was going to be radio buttons, like in
the dialog, but I guess a single clickable button to switch the orientation
will work.

> The benefit here is the much simpler interaction -- a simple click rather
> than click, move mouse, click again.

Yes a single click would always be preferable, though i dont see that click,
move mouse, click again is that much of a disadvantage.


> That's why I said "Paper Format" -- these are properties related to the
> paper you'll be printing on.

Guess this is something we wont agree on. Ultimately, i'm keeping headings as
just single words.

> In the formatting dialog, "Page layout" is an entry under "Layout settings".
> You could do the same thing.

Those labels dont make sense to me, and i'd assume others as well, so i've
chosen not to use them. The words 'Page Layout' can mean a number of things to
a number of people. I'd assume most people would consider 'Page Layout' to be
how things are laid out on the page, similar to how you have slide layout in
impress.

> That's why I suggested to make separate mockups for different modules.
> Writer is primarily about printable pages of text, so it's useful to know
> whether the background will be printed or not (please answer my question
> about that). Impress and Draw tend to be presented on-screen and it
> generally always makes sense to print the slide background along with the
> slide, since it's such an inseparable part of the slide.

As background is used in all modules, there isnt a need to eliminate it from
the writer sidebar. Regarding whether the background color is printed or not,
i'd assume it is printed and not about the paper color, as you can set the
background as an image, a color gradient, etc.

> But the prioritization is different. For example, margins are much more
> important than the page background in Writer, but the opposite is true in
> Impress.

Well the sections could be swapped depending on the use case of a particular
app but i think its best to keep the sidebar looking the same across multiple
apps. We dont reorganize other sidebar content depending on what is used more
in other apps.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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--- Comment #11 from Jay Philips <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 106594
  --> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=106594&action=edit
Page Tab Mockup - Update 3

I believe that this is the finalized layout mockup that i'll be doing after
listening to feedback from a number of sources. There maybe debate later on
about label/section names, but presently thats not important enough to warrant
additional mockup work.

I look forward to hearing from devs who are interested in making this a
reality.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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--- Comment #12 from A (Andy) <[hidden email]> ---
it looks nice

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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--- Comment #13 from V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]> ---
@Jay, *,
(In reply to comment #11)
> Page Tab Mockup - Update 3
>
> I believe that this is the finalized layout mockup that i'll be doing after
> listening to feedback from a number of sources. There maybe debate later on
> about label/section names, but presently thats not important enough to
> warrant additional mockup work.
>
> I look forward to hearing from devs who are interested in making this a
> reality.

This proposed Page Content Panel for the SideBar tray is going to need
assignment to an object on the Tab bar. Your mockups have yet to show that.
Assume it is not going to be resident on the Properties Tab--so will need a new
Tab bar item as well to be able to navigate to it.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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--- Comment #14 from Jay Philips <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to comment #13)
> This proposed Page Content Panel for the SideBar tray is going to need
> assignment to an object on the Tab bar. Your mockups have yet to show that.
> Assume it is not going to be resident on the Properties Tab--so will need a
> new Tab bar item as well to be able to navigate to it.

Yes it would require a new tab bar icon, which would likely be the icon for
.uno:setdocumentproperties.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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--- Comment #15 from Jean-Francois Nifenecker <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to comment #13)

> I think that is a good idea and you should file a new bug enhancement for it.

Done: see https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84502

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 83830] SIDEBAR: Proposal for the creation of a page tab

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V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           See Also|                            |https://bugs.freedesktop.or
                   |                            |g/show_bug.cgi?id=84502

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