[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

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Samuel Mehrbrodt-2 Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

Hi,

I have a suggestion to alter the list of Text Styles visible in the
Drop-Down-Box in Writer. Currently we have there

* Default Style
* Heading 1
* Heading 2
* Heading 3
* Text body
* More

My suggestion would be (as seen in Google Docs):

* Text body
* Title
* Subtitle
* Heading 1
* Heading 2
* Heading 3
* More

Reasons:
* "Text body" is the same as "Default Style", except that it has a
margin at the bottom, so I would suggest to remove "Default Style" from
the list.
* A title is something almost every document has and thus important to
have it there.
* "Subtitle" might be useful to have it there, personally I don't use it
very often.

Also I would suggest not to order the styles alphabetically, but use a
custom order (Text body should be on top e.g.).

Thoughts on this?

Samuel
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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

Hi Samuel,

Initial remark:

Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (23-11-12 17:48)

> [..]
> Reasons:
> * "Text body" is the same as "Default Style", except that it has a
> margin at the bottom, so I would suggest to remove "Default Style" from
> the list.

This is not true.
Nearly all styles inherit from Default Style.
And much less do so from Text Body.

I support the idea to have people use text Body in stead of Default
Style ....
However, people are used taking Default (Style), will get confused.
Also a clean new document and many existing documents (and other
applications) show Default Style...

Technically however: as a style is used in the document, it is shown in
the list Apply Style.
So removing Default Style will only be possible if you change the
default New document :-)

Thus: when we remove Default Style from the list by default, and change
the default 'template' so that it shows Text Body for the single
paragraph, we only confuse people ;-)

What do others think?

(For the rest (title, sorting) kudoos ;-) )

Cheers,


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Jan Holesovsky Jan Holesovsky
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

Hi Cor,

Cor Nouws píše v Pá 23. 11. 2012 v 18:07 +0100:

> > [..]
> > Reasons:
> > * "Text body" is the same as "Default Style", except that it has a
> > margin at the bottom, so I would suggest to remove "Default Style" from
> > the list.
>
> This is not true.
> Nearly all styles inherit from Default Style.
> And much less do so from Text Body.
>
> I support the idea to have people use text Body in stead of Default
> Style ....
> However, people are used taking Default (Style), will get confused.
> Also a clean new document and many existing documents (and other
> applications) show Default Style...

I've changed the indifferent word "Default" there to "Default
Style" [which is much more descriptive] just recently - I think the last
week - so I guess no real damage if we remove it from the preselected
list, and have just Text Body there.

> Technically however: as a style is used in the document, it is shown in
> the list Apply Style.
> So removing Default Style will only be possible if you change the
> default New document :-)

The preselection works a bit differently - it is hardcoded, so I can
change in the code what appears in the UI when the new document is open.

> What do others think?

If you come up with a list of styles to have there by default here on
the list, I'll change that accordingly.

And - being at the HackFest in Munich, I've just managed to get the
previews of the styles working:

http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/permalinks/2012-11-24T21_03_58.html

Feels much better this way :-) - I hope OK for you?

All the best,
Kendy

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Samuel Mehrbrodt-2 Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

 > And - being at the HackFest in Munich, I've just managed to get the
 > previews of the styles working:

Hey, that's really nice and a great improvement. I like that.

 > If you come up with a list of styles to have there by default here on
 > the list, I'll change that accordingly.

My suggestion was to remove "Default" and add "Title", "Subtitle" and
now I would also suggest to add "Quotation" to the list of default
styles. Maybe this is a discussion for the Design team?

Enjoy the HackFest!
Samuel

Am 24.11.2012 22:31, schrieb Jan Holesovsky:

> Hi Cor,
>
> Cor Nouws píše v Pá 23. 11. 2012 v 18:07 +0100:
>
>>> [..]
>>> Reasons:
>>> * "Text body" is the same as "Default Style", except that it has a
>>> margin at the bottom, so I would suggest to remove "Default Style" from
>>> the list.
>>
>> This is not true.
>> Nearly all styles inherit from Default Style.
>> And much less do so from Text Body.
>>
>> I support the idea to have people use text Body in stead of Default
>> Style ....
>> However, people are used taking Default (Style), will get confused.
>> Also a clean new document and many existing documents (and other
>> applications) show Default Style...
>
> I've changed the indifferent word "Default" there to "Default
> Style" [which is much more descriptive] just recently - I think the last
> week - so I guess no real damage if we remove it from the preselected
> list, and have just Text Body there.
>
>> Technically however: as a style is used in the document, it is shown in
>> the list Apply Style.
>> So removing Default Style will only be possible if you change the
>> default New document :-)
>
> The preselection works a bit differently - it is hardcoded, so I can
> change in the code what appears in the UI when the new document is open.
>
>> What do others think?
>
> If you come up with a list of styles to have there by default here on
> the list, I'll change that accordingly.
>
> And - being at the HackFest in Munich, I've just managed to get the
> previews of the styles working:
>
> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/permalinks/2012-11-24T21_03_58.html
>
> Feels much better this way :-) - I hope OK for you?
>
> All the best,
> Kendy
>
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Olivier R. Olivier R.
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky
Hi *,

Jan Holesovsky wrote
And - being at the HackFest in Munich, I've just managed to get the
previews of the styles working:

http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/permalinks/2012-11-24T21_03_58.html
This is cool. :)
Is it possible to get this feature in the stylist ?
A long time ago, I had made a mock-up for Cédric.
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:NewStylist.png

Regards,
Olivier
Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky
Hi Kendy,

Jan Holesovsky wrote (24-11-12 22:31)

> I've changed the indifferent word "Default" there to "Default
> Style" [which is much more descriptive] just recently - I think the last

noticed yes. Good improvement.

> week - so I guess no real damage if we remove it from the preselected
> list, and have just Text Body there.

I'm not sure how people, that are looking for Default, will react :-)


> The preselection works a bit differently - it is hardcoded, so I can
> change in the code what appears in the UI when the new document is open.

But then again, when a document uses a style that is not used in the
default list, it is added.
So me would expect having Default Style not in the hard coded list, and
then opening a new document with Default Style ... it is simply shown in
Select Styles :-)

> And - being at the HackFest in Munich, I've just managed to get the
> previews of the styles working:
>
> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/permalinks/2012-11-24T21_03_58.html
>
> Feels much better this way :-) - I hope OK for you?

Looks very nice :-) which in itself is important.
I have no idea how people will use it however.
Maybe it lowers the step to start using styles?

Cheers,

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Olivier Hallot Olivier Hallot
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

In reply to this post by Olivier R.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

HI

Em 25-11-2012 07:05, Olivier R. escreveu:

> Hi *,
>
>
> Jan Holesovsky wrote
>> And - being at the HackFest in Munich, I've just managed to get the
>> previews of the styles working:
>>
>> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/permalinks/2012-11-24T21_03_58.html
>
> This is cool. :)
> Is it possible to get this feature in the stylist ?
> A long time ago, I had made a mock-up for Cédric.
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:NewStylist.png
>
> Regards,
> Olivier

Adding the cherry on top of the cake:

Allow to drag the style entry from the Stylist and drop into the text to
apply the style (slight improvemento to the current double click on the
style)

- --
Olivier Hallot
Founder, Board of Directors Member - The Document Foundation
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Fundação responsável civilmente, de acordo com o direito civil
Detalhes Legais: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Olivier Hallot <[hidden email]> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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HI

Em 25-11-2012 07:05, Olivier R. escreveu:
> Hi *,
>
>
> Jan Holesovsky wrote
>> And - being at the HackFest in Munich, I've just managed to get the
>> previews of the styles working:
>>
>> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/permalinks/2012-11-24T21_03_58.html

Awesome! 

>
> This is cool. :)
> Is it possible to get this feature in the stylist ? 

+1 
> A long time ago, I had made a mock-up for Cédric.
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:NewStylist.png 

>
> Regards,
> Olivier

Adding the cherry on top of the cake:

Allow to drag the style entry from the Stylist and drop into the text to
apply the style (slight improvemento to the current double click on the
style)

Drag and drop is a longer and more complex action than double-click.
Why not just apply a style on single-click, same as in the style drop-down?

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

Mirek M. wrote (26-11-12 15:49)

> Drag and drop is a longer and more complex action than double-click.
> Why not just apply a style on single-click, same as in the style drop-down?

Have been thinking about that.
But you need to be able to select a style for more actions than
applying. So I see a problem there.

(My idea was:
   apply with double-click,
   show in document with ctrl-click /
     then apply with releasing ctrl and revert with releasing mouse
But would not dare to ask ;-) )


(And don't forget that it's possible to select a style by typing Enter
when it's selected, which can be easy when the Stylist opens floating
after hitting F11 )


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

Hi all, Mirek, Cor, Olivier, Kendy

kudos for the previews, they look great and have been long awaited!

Cor, what actions one needs to select a style for? Unless I'm wrong, they're only right clicking for context menu (then New..., Modify... or Delete...), which doesn't require single left click first. Apart from that, about the upper button "New Style from selection", what I gather is 'selection' here refers to the cursor in the text, not the style selected in the Stylist.
If we could indeed use single click to apply a style, then double-click could be assigned to Modify ('edit style' dialog), which in my opinion would be a productive boost.

Obs.: the brush (Fill format mode) can be used by first clicking the brush button, then the style intended to be applied. Then only in this case single clicking the style won't apply the style immediatly, but wait for the brush. Besides, this is a tool that perhaps needs some rethinking...

Cheers./

PS.: +1 for the style list "Title", "Subtitle" and "Quotations" in place of "Default".
PPS.: +1 for Olivier's mock up!

Mirek M. wrote (26-11-12 15:49)

> Drag and drop is a longer and more complex action than double-click.
> Why not just apply a style on single-click, same as in the style drop-down?

Have been thinking about that.
But you need to be able to select a style for more actions than 
applying. So I see a problem there.

(My idea was:
   apply with double-click,
   show in document with ctrl-click /
     then apply with releasing ctrl and revert with releasing mouse
But would not dare to ask ;-) )


(And don't forget that it's possible to select a style by typing Enter 
when it's selected, which can be easy when the Stylist opens floating 
after hitting F11 )

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

This new "Apply Style" combo box looks really nice. And works like a
charm. :)

It brought one thought to my mind though. I really miss a keyboard shortcut
that would open the "Apply Style" combo box so it looks like this.
http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/permalinks/2012-11-24T21_03_58.html

As I noted in a message, witch by mistake went directly to Kendy, I
would really
like it if a style only gets added to the combo box when it is
explicitly being
used. Ex. When you use the style Heading 1, the style Heading gets added
because
Heading 1 is based on Heading. I'd like to avoid this.

A question about the preselected styles. If we add styles to it then
they will appear
in all documents, right? It would be really nice if this list could be
altered on a template
level. Otherwise I think it's a good thing that there are just a few
preselected styles.
The suggestions about adding quotation, title and subtitle seems ok though.

Sorry for making this into a wish-list. :P

Anyway this is a great step in a good direction.

Regards,
Niklas Johansson

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

In reply to this post by Rafael Rocha Daud
Hi Rafael, *


[  First: the paragraphs in your mail shows up in my Thunderbird as one
long line. Could you pls check if there is some gmail setting curing
that :-)
Also: If you have the previous mails replying to them each and
preferably in-line, helps me spending less time on mail reading and
understanding. Which is useful with all that is passing by. thanks ;-) ]


Rafael Rocha Daud wrote (27-11-12 14:53)

> Cor, what actions one needs to select a style for? Unless I'm wrong,
> they're only right clicking for context menu (then New..., Modify...
> or Delete...), which doesn't require single left click first.

So you suggest to have lift click for applying and right click for
selecting and the other actions? Sounds fine :-)
On the other hand, what comes to my mind rapidly is that in most cases a
user first selects an item in a list-box, and then presses OK (or such),
or, alternatively double-clicks... So that at least explains the behaviour.
But since we don't have a button 'apply', indeed I know users sometimes
are looking around .. ;-)

> Apart
> from that, about the upper button "New Style from selection", what I
> gather is 'selection' here refers to the cursor in the text, not the
> style selected in the Stylist.

Correct. "Text at cursor position / selected" is more appropriate - but
long...

> style selected in the Stylist. If we could indeed use single click to
> apply a style, then double-click could be assigned to Modify ('edit
> style' dialog), which in my opinion would be a productive boost.

Maybe...
And what about Delete? Leave that in the context menu?
Wondering what others think.

Thanks for your input!

Cor

PS - if at a certain moment we have the feeling that there is not so
much input on a question and still are a bit in doubt, it might be an
idea to consult e.g the users list ... with a specific question?

--
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

In reply to this post by Niklas Johansson
Hi Niklas,

Niklas Johansson wrote (27-11-12 15:50)

> It brought one thought to my mind though. I really miss a keyboard shortcut
> that would open the "Apply Style" combo box so it looks like this.

Ctrl+F11 and then Alt+down will do :-)

> As I noted in a message, witch by mistake went directly to Kendy, I
> would really like it if a style only gets added to the combo box
> when it is explicitly being used. Ex. When you use the style
> Heading 1, the style Heading gets added because
> Heading 1 is based on Heading. I'd like to avoid this.

I do not agree here.
It's good to show users - some initial often used / important styles.

regards,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

Hi Cor,
>> It brought one thought to my mind though. I really miss a keyboard
>> shortcut
>> that would open the "Apply Style" combo box so it looks like this.
>
> Ctrl+F11 and then Alt+down will do :-)
Ah, nice. Wouldn't it make sense if it expanded the combo box
automatically on Ctrl+F11?
>> As I noted in a message, witch by mistake went directly to Kendy, I
>> would really like it if a style only gets added to the combo box
>> when it is explicitly being used. Ex. When you use the style
>> Heading 1, the style Heading gets added because
>> Heading 1 is based on Heading. I'd like to avoid this.
>
> I do not agree here.
> It's good to show users - some initial often used / important styles.
>
I don't know if my concern went through correctly. Because I do agree
that often used styles/important should be available initially. What I
basically wonder is why a style (Heading) that isn't directly used in the
document needs to be added to the list of applied styles because another
style (Heading 1) is used in the document.
As long as this is the case we can't really get rid of Default Style
from the
list. Or am I missing something?

Regards,
Niklas Johansson


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

Hello


> Message du 28/11/12 13:43
> De : "Niklas Johansson"

> why a style (Heading) that isn't directly used in the
> document needs to be added to the list of applied styles because another
> style (Heading 1) is used in the document.

I see at least 2 cases...

1. For example, if you want to increase proportionally the size of the styles
Heading 1 and Heading 2, you can edit "Heading".
Still need to know that these styles depend on that.
The legacy would be less obvious with custom styles if you do not display
this information.

2. A paragraph style ("Test" for instance) is defined with a numbering style
("List 3" for instance). Currently "Applied styles" shows "List 3" as used,
even if  the paragraph style "Test" is not used. It does not seem to be any
other way of knowing, except of course browse through all paragraph styles

Regards
Pierre-Yves



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

Hi
pierre-yves.samyn skrev 2012-11-28 14:33:
> why a style (Heading) that isn't directly used in the
> document needs to be added to the list of applied styles because another
> style (Heading 1) is used in the document.

I see at least 2 cases...

1. For example, if you want to increase proportionally the size of the styles
Heading 1 and Heading 2, you can edit "Heading".
Still need to know that these styles depend on that.
The legacy would be less obvious with custom styles if you do not display
this information.
I would recommend using hierarchal view of the Styles and Formatting dialog for
knowing which style is based on what. I don't really consider Heading showing up
when using one of the Heading X styles as obvious, at best I'd call it a hint.

2. A paragraph style ("Test" for instance) is defined with a numbering style
("List 3" for instance). Currently "Applied styles" shows "List 3" as used,
even if  the paragraph style "Test" is not used. It does not seem to be any
other way of knowing, except of course browse through all paragraph styles
Sorry I got snowed in on Paragraph styles and what shows up in the "Apply Style"
combo box in the Formatting toolbar, which seems to add all applied paragraph
styles. You make a good case for leaving Applied Styles in the Styles and Formatting
dialog as it is.

/Niklas

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