[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

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Michael Meeks-2 Michael Meeks-2
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

Hi guys,

        I just read a mail like this:

[snip]
As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
computer world.

Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
LibreOffice?
[/snip]

        And wondered: can we not just drop the updated Tango 'save' icon into
our theme for 3.5 ? [ the freeze doesn't affect artwork yet ;-] - any
objections to that ?

        Thanks,

                Michael.

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

Hi Michael,

>        And wondered: can we not just drop the updated Tango 'save' icon into
> our theme for 3.5 ? [ the freeze doesn't affect artwork yet ;-] - any
> objections to that ?

Hm ... yeah, the objection pretty much is this: we don't have a
suitable icon yet (I agree with Alex's reasoning that hard disks
shouldn't be displayed either).
Gnome has a suitable icon without hard disk, but Gnome's icons are
LGPL3-only/CC-BY-SA, so we can't include that, right?

Astron.
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Michael Meeks-2 Michael Meeks-2
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

Hi Garret / Jimmac,

        First - welcome to a CC on our (lowish volume, fun to join,
non-reply-to-mangling UX advise list for LibreOffice[1] ;-)

        We'd really love to switch our 'Save As' icon to the latest Tango
version, but have some licensing queries: is there any chance we could
get the Save & SaveAs icons included into LibreOffice 3.5 (UI freeze
coming up in the next weeks) and/or who owns the rights to them ? [ I
believe our artwork should be MPL/LGPLv3+ - though more liberal is fine
].

        Thanks !

                Michael.

On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 14:54 +0100, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> >        And wondered: can we not just drop the updated Tango 'save' icon into
> > our theme for 3.5 ? [ the freeze doesn't affect artwork yet ;-] - any
> > objections to that ?
>
> Hm ... yeah, the objection pretty much is this: we don't have a
> suitable icon yet (I agree with Alex's reasoning that hard disks
> shouldn't be displayed either).
> Gnome has a suitable icon without hard disk, but Gnome's icons are
> LGPL3-only/CC-BY-SA, so we can't include that, right?
>
> Astron.
>

[1] - http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
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Michael Meeks-2 Michael Meeks-2
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

So,

        Jakub pointed out that I got that lot re-licensed by Novell/SUSE in
some heavy lifting process, and into the public domain; so we can
include them into LibreOffice.

On Wed, 2012-01-04 at 14:43 +0000, Michael Meeks wrote:
> We'd really love to switch our 'Save As' icon to the latest Tango
> version, but have some licensing queries: is there any chance we could
> get the Save & SaveAs icons included into LibreOffice 3.5 (UI freeze
> coming up in the next weeks)

        So - unless people scream; I'd like to replace Save and SaveAs with
these images from gnome-cvs:

http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/tango/tango-icon-theme/22x22/actions/document-save.png?revision=1.2
http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/tango/tango-icon-theme/16x16/actions/document-save.png?revision=1.2
http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/tango/tango-icon-theme/22x22/actions/document-save-as.png?revision=1.1
http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/tango/tango-icon-theme/16x16/actions/document-save-as.png?revision=1.1

        Let the screaming begin :-) failing that I'd like to get them in for B3
next week. Thanks for the reminder Jakub - though - are these the latest
tango icons ? ...

        Thanks,

                Michael.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Michael Meeks <[hidden email]> wrote:

       Let the screaming begin :-) failing that I'd like to get them in for B3
next week. Thanks for the reminder Jakub - though - are these the latest
tango icons ? ...

Hi Michael,

Yes, that should be up to date. I need to hunt fdo sitewranglers as the links to the latest released tarballs are broken right now. But the cvs (ehm) should work still.

cheers
 
Jakub Steiner <[hidden email]>
http://jimmac.musichall.cz

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks-2
Hi Michael,

>        So - unless people scream; I'd like to replace Save and SaveAs with
> these images from gnome-cvs:
>
> http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/tango/tango-icon-theme/22x22/actions/document-save.png?revision=1.2
> http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/tango/tango-icon-theme/16x16/actions/document-save.png?revision=1.2
> http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/tango/tango-icon-theme/22x22/actions/document-save-as.png?revision=1.1
> http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/tango/tango-icon-theme/16x16/actions/document-save-as.png?revision=1.1
>
>        Let the screaming begin :-) failing that I'd like to get them in for B3
> next week. Thanks for the reminder Jakub - though - are these the latest
> tango icons ? ...

Scream. I know of this icon set [1], and know that these are in the
PD, but ... these particular two icons are at least not my favourites
as far as Tango icons go.
I don't know if any of you agree, but I think it is pretty hard to
discern what the white-ish/grey thing is (a hard drive), also the hard
drive is also one of these inventions that slowly goes out of fashion.
(And, Jakub, Garrett, please don't understand this as an attack on
Tango/you personally – Tango/your work generally is great.)

The Gnome icons I meant are these:
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/plain/gnome/24x24/actions/document-save.png
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/plain/gnome/16x16/actions/document-save.png

The 24*24 one is really amazing and very, very descriptive, the 16*16
one is maybe a bit harder to decipher, because it's more simplified,
but on most systems the larger size seems to be the default anyway.

Now, there's another question with regard to our icons: how are they
actually licensed? The Human icon theme folder for instance, contains
this:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/icon-themes/human/CopyrightsTango
I know, Human came into the repository long after the fork. So, is
that document moot now?
Also, how do software licenses apply to icons, do we actually need to
stress out on licensing here?

Regards,

Astron.


[1] Although, what I didn't know, is that there's a CVS repo ... I
used to download the zip archive from Wayback Machine because the
Tango homepage is a bit broken currently.
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Jakub Steiner Jakub Steiner
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

gnome-icon-theme is LGPL3/CCBYSA3. The author of the two icons in question is Lapo I believe. I'm pretty sure he'll be willing to relicense under the terms you need. CCing.

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Stefan Knorr (Astron) <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Gnome icons I meant are these:
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/plain/gnome/24x24/actions/document-save.png
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/plain/gnome/16x16/actions/document-save.png

The 24*24 one is really amazing and very, very descriptive, the 16*16
one is maybe a bit harder to decipher, because it's more simplified,
but on most systems the larger size seems to be the default anyway.

Now, there's another question with regard to our icons: how are they
actually licensed? The Human icon theme folder for instance, contains
this:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/icon-themes/human/CopyrightsTango
I know, Human came into the repository long after the fork. So, is
that document moot now?
Also, how do software licenses apply to icons, do we actually need to
stress out on licensing here?

Regards,

Astron.


[1] Although, what I didn't know, is that there's a CVS repo ... I
used to download the zip archive from Wayback Machine because the
Tango homepage is a bit broken currently.



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Bjoern Michaelsen Bjoern Michaelsen
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

In reply to this post by Stefan Knorr (Astron)
On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 06:44:10PM +0100, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote:
> Now, there's another question with regard to our icons: how are they
> actually licensed? The Human icon theme folder for instance, contains
> this:
> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/icon-themes/human/CopyrightsTango
> I know, Human came into the repository long after the fork. So, is
> that document moot now?

Why should it be? Unfortunately the human theme was a colorful collection using
artwork from various sources with very little care taken for consistency.
Luckily, as the reference location for human icon contributions is now
LibreOffice itself, so our default license requirements apply for further
contributions, making at least those halfway consistent. But for the old stuff,
I fear we have to keep the notes (unless they are replaced, or the original
author allow us to relicense). I dont think we should be proactive about the
relicensing as it would be a real timewaster.

Best,

Bjoern
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Lapo Calamandrei Lapo Calamandrei
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

In reply to this post by Jakub Steiner
I'm missing some bits here, is it for libreoffice usage? Anyway I'm
happy to relicense the icons whatever you need as long as it is for an
oss project.

Cheers
Lapo

2012/1/6 Jakub Steiner <[hidden email]>:

> gnome-icon-theme is LGPL3/CCBYSA3. The author of the two icons in question
> is Lapo I believe. I'm pretty sure he'll be willing to relicense under the
> terms you need. CCing.
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Stefan Knorr (Astron)
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The Gnome icons I meant are these:
>>
>> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/plain/gnome/24x24/actions/document-save.png
>>
>> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/plain/gnome/16x16/actions/document-save.png
>>
>> The 24*24 one is really amazing and very, very descriptive, the 16*16
>> one is maybe a bit harder to decipher, because it's more simplified,
>> but on most systems the larger size seems to be the default anyway.
>>
>> Now, there's another question with regard to our icons: how are they
>> actually licensed? The Human icon theme folder for instance, contains
>> this:
>>
>> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/icon-themes/human/CopyrightsTango
>> I know, Human came into the repository long after the fork. So, is
>> that document moot now?
>> Also, how do software licenses apply to icons, do we actually need to
>> stress out on licensing here?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Astron.
>>
>>
>> [1] Although, what I didn't know, is that there's a CVS repo ... I
>> used to download the zip archive from Wayback Machine because the
>> Tango homepage is a bit broken currently.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jakub Steiner <[hidden email]>
> http://jimmac.musichall.cz
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

Hi Lapo, everyone else,

On 6 January 2012 20:11, Lapo Calamandrei <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm missing some bits here, is it for libreoffice usage? Anyway I'm
> happy to relicense the icons whatever you need as long as it is for an
> oss project.

Yes, these would then be used in the Tango theme of the upcoming
LibreOffice 3.5. Not to get too bureaucratic, but the licenses you'd
have to agree to would be LGPL v3+ and MPL.

The files would be these:
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/tree/gnome/24x24/actions/document-save-as.png
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/tree/gnome/24x24/actions/document-save.png
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/tree/gnome/16x16/actions/document-save-as.png
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/tree/gnome/16x16/actions/document-save-as.png


I've attached a patch that replaces the appropriate diskette icons in
our theme with your (Lapo's) Save As icons. Additionally, this patch
imports a Reload icon from the tango.freedesktop.org artwork and
removes a few now-obsolete source xcf.bz2's.

There is one diskette-containing icon that would still have to be
replaced, i.e. the Save As Template icon (cmd/lc_saveastemplate.png,
cmd/sc_saveastemplate.png). From my point of view, it doesn't make
much sense to use the original Save icon for this. Additionally, I
doubt a bit whether we actually need an icon for this action (that
does not seem to be used in any default toolbar configurations anyway)
– if others see this similarly, I'll fix up a quick patch to remove it
from all themes (I hope it's that easy, haven't tried).

It'd make me extremely happy if we could get even more of the current
Gnome icons into LibreOffice to update our Tango theme with –
hopefully I'm not asking too much here... in any case, I like how
Tango has evolved. It might also make LibreOffice look much more
Gnome-friendly immediately (it's not just the icons, I know that).


> 2012/1/6 Jakub Steiner <[hidden email]>:
>> gnome-icon-theme is LGPL3/CCBYSA3. The author of the two icons in question
>> is Lapo I believe. I'm pretty sure he'll be willing to relicense under the
>> terms you need. CCing.

Thanks a lot for doing this so quickly.


Have a nice Sunday,

Astron.

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0001-New-Save-Save-As-and-Reload-File-icons-for-the-Tango.patch (66K) Download Attachment
Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Floppy Disk ...

Hi all,
Lapo answered privately (because this list is goes unanswered if you
don't use "Reply All")...
Astron.

2012/1/8 Stefan Knorr (Astron) <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Lapo, everyone else,
>
> On 6 January 2012 20:11, Lapo Calamandrei <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'm missing some bits here, is it for libreoffice usage? Anyway I'm
>> happy to relicense the icons whatever you need as long as it is for an
>> oss project.
>
> Yes, these would then be used in the Tango theme of the upcoming
> LibreOffice 3.5. Not to get too bureaucratic, but the licenses you'd
> have to agree to would be LGPL v3+ and MPL.
>
Officially agreed then :-)
I think you need to include in the repositories somewhere the 'source'
svgs or some pointer to them to satisfy the gpl source clause (IANAL
though).

> The files would be these:
> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/tree/gnome/24x24/actions/document-save-as.png
> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/tree/gnome/24x24/actions/document-save.png
> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/tree/gnome/16x16/actions/document-save-as.png
> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/tree/gnome/16x16/actions/document-save-as.png
>
>
> I've attached a patch that replaces the appropriate diskette icons in
> our theme with your (Lapo's) Save As icons. Additionally, this patch
> imports a Reload icon from the tango.freedesktop.org artwork and
> removes a few now-obsolete source xcf.bz2's.
Please consider that the tango example base set is basically
unmaintaned and it's kinda rotting, so the more icons you pick from
gnome icon theme (which is the latest and greatest implementation of
the tango style) in place of tango ones the better.
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PUSHED] Floppy Disk ...

Hi Lapo, Jakub, Michael, everybody else reading,

*Just pushed the patch (with Lapo's suggested change of including the
source image), could someone else cherry-pick, please?*
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=f76c017cf4f216e72da362e4d5466a2e5cc7281e
(I don't want to mess up 3.5, so for now, I'd rather leave it to
someone else to cherry-pick)

Anyway, please don't say that too loudly, since we have whole icon
themes without any sort of source files. Even our Tango theme provides
almost only xcf's as sources and only for some files.


> Officially agreed then :-)
Great.

> I think you need to include in the repositories somewhere the 'source'
> svgs or some pointer to them to satisfy the gpl source clause (IANAL
> though).

Oh! I've add the SVG to the patch. Thanks for the hint.

> Please consider that the tango example base set is basically
> unmaintaned and it's kinda rotting, so the more icons you pick from
> gnome icon theme (which is the latest and greatest implementation of
> the tango style) in place of tango ones the better.

Right, I'd love to do that, too. But, with the 3.5 hard UI freeze
looming, I'd say for the moment the old icon is fine.
Going by the log [1] we'd need your permission again and Jakub's, too...

Is there any way for you and the other gnome-icon-theme contributors
to give us a relicensed snapshot tarball of the "src" and "gnome"
folders of the entire gnome-icon-theme repository, minus anything
Gnome-specific (foot icons, ...), please? [2]


Astron.


[1] http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-icon-theme/log/src/navigation-icons.svg
[2] A more accurate list of the things that'd help is atteched (if
that makes it any easier)

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PUSHED] Floppy Disk ...


On Mon, 2012-01-09 at 21:36 +0100, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote:
> (I don't want to mess up 3.5, so for now, I'd rather leave it to
> someone else to cherry-pick)

        Renamed the directory, and pushed to -3-5,

        Thanks ! :-)

                Michael.

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