[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

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Krisztian Pinter Krisztian Pinter
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

Hi all!


"Currently, the Start Center (the start screen you get when you start LibreOffice) is only a static bitmap, with few buttons and links. It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff.
See this overview and WidgetLayout to get more information about the Widget Layout (this part is actually very similar to the above mentioned task). Additionally, code for rendering the thumbnails will have to be introduced, and maybe some code sharing with the new Template Manager will be needed too."

I've already converted the current startcenter to .ui, and it has been merged to master, but it's still being improved. I'm currently working on adding thumbnails for recent docs.

I'd like to request a mockup for the startcenter (with thumbnails for recent docs), so we can make it look nice and pretty.

Kendy, my GSoC mentor, listed these points as his preference:
>* Keep the buttons to start apps some way (but they could be smaller or organized another way
>* Keep the LibreOffice logo, but the other visual things (like the shadows etc.) might go from my point of view
>* Make it resizable, so that the screen size is better used (ie. no more fixed rectangle in the middle of the screen)

Looking forward to your feedback!

All the best,
Krisztian

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Olivier Hallot Olivier Hallot
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

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Hello Krisztian

Em 24-07-2013 13:16, Krisztian Pinter escreveu:
> Looking forward to your feedback!
>

Glad to know you are working on this.. and thanks to Kendy for mentoring.

ATM there is no significant visual change. But I imagine the following
for it: A GtkNotebook with 3 tabs: Recent files thumbnails, templates
thumbnails, applications icon. Perhaps a fourth with about:config or
Tools/Option.

I also think on having a shadow on the thumbnails cells based on the
document nature: light green for spreadsheets, light blue for texts,
light red for presentation and so on.

Kind regards
- --
Olivier Hallot
Founder, Board of Directors Member - The Document Foundation
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Fundação responsável civilmente, de acordo com o direito civil
Detalhes Legais: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
LibreOffice translation leader for Brazilian Portuguese
+55-21-8822-8812
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by Krisztian Pinter
Hi Krisztian,

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Krisztian Pinter <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all!


"Currently, the Start Center (the start screen you get when you start LibreOffice) is only a static bitmap, with few buttons and links. It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff.
See this overview and WidgetLayout to get more information about the Widget Layout (this part is actually very similar to the above mentioned task). Additionally, code for rendering the thumbnails will have to be introduced, and maybe some code sharing with the new Template Manager will be needed too."

Sounds good. I was about to say that perhaps you could try to reuse the Template Manager's thumbnail rendering.

I've already converted the current startcenter to .ui, and it has been merged to master, but it's still being improved. I'm currently working on adding thumbnails for recent docs.

I'd like to request a mockup for the startcenter (with thumbnails for recent docs), so we can make it look nice and pretty.


Kendy, my GSoC mentor, listed these points as his preference:
>* Keep the buttons to start apps some way (but they could be smaller or organized another way
>* Keep the LibreOffice logo, but the other visual things (like the shadows etc.) might go from my point of view
>* Make it resizable, so that the screen size is better used (ie. no more fixed rectangle in the middle of the screen)

I tried to incorporate these into the scope. Take a look at it and feel free to make changes based on what you feel like doing. :)

Thanks for working on this!

Looking forward to your feedback!

All the best,
Krisztian

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

Hi all!

Sorry for the late reply!

(Disclaimer: I'm not an UI designer, just trying to use my own flavor of common sense here, so I apologize in advance to any UI professionals if I say something very stupid. :-)

Thanks for all the responses, and thanks Mirek for starting the whiteboard and creating a mockup (which I liked).
I had something with tabs in mind as well. I created a rudimentary mockup myself before posting this, and in its concept it's close to what Mirek did. I think tabs should correspond to modules, feels more practical to me, and I think this is what the average user might find more comfortable/familiar.

Currently when LO starts, the question Star Center asks is "Which module would you like to use?". Olivier's design asks the question "Would you like to create a new document, create a new document from a template or open a recent one?"
I think users don't fire up LO thinking "I want to create a document from a template" or "I want to open a recent file" but something like "I want to start a new spreadsheet (in Calc)" or "I want to continue working on my slash fic (in Writer)".
The point I'm trying to make is that I think users first think about what type of document they want to work with, and second what they want to do with it, and so this is the order Start Center should be asking the user these questions.

Obviously, this is all just speculation, and I'm not 100% confident in my reasoning, so please, tell me what you think.

The idea about different filetypes having different colored shadows: that's interesting, but I think a small icon for the filetype should also be put in a corner of the thumbnail or something, because it wouldn't be very helpful for color blind people.

All the best,
Krisztian

On 26 July 2013 10:47, Mirek M. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Krisztian,

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Krisztian Pinter <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all!


"Currently, the Start Center (the start screen you get when you start LibreOffice) is only a static bitmap, with few buttons and links. It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff.
See this overview and WidgetLayout to get more information about the Widget Layout (this part is actually very similar to the above mentioned task). Additionally, code for rendering the thumbnails will have to be introduced, and maybe some code sharing with the new Template Manager will be needed too."

Sounds good. I was about to say that perhaps you could try to reuse the Template Manager's thumbnail rendering.

I've already converted the current startcenter to .ui, and it has been merged to master, but it's still being improved. I'm currently working on adding thumbnails for recent docs.

I'd like to request a mockup for the startcenter (with thumbnails for recent docs), so we can make it look nice and pretty.


Kendy, my GSoC mentor, listed these points as his preference:
>* Keep the buttons to start apps some way (but they could be smaller or organized another way
>* Keep the LibreOffice logo, but the other visual things (like the shadows etc.) might go from my point of view
>* Make it resizable, so that the screen size is better used (ie. no more fixed rectangle in the middle of the screen)

I tried to incorporate these into the scope. Take a look at it and feel free to make changes based on what you feel like doing. :)

Thanks for working on this!

Looking forward to your feedback!

All the best,
Krisztian

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by Krisztian Pinter
Hi Krisztian,

Le 24/07/2013 18:16, Krisztian Pinter a écrit :
> Hi all!
>
> I'm working on this GSoC
> project: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Gsoc/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center

I just tried the first implementation of the new startcenter in the
master. It is interesting to view the recent documents but there is a
problem in the actual implementation in which it is impossible to see
the entire name of the file. Do you plan to offer different views of the
list, like icons, detailed list and compact list?

In the mockup (here:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Start_Center) the
filenames follow the old ms-dos 8 digit rule; am I wrong if I assume
that, today, nobody still uses that rule in the real life ? ;-)


Best regards.
JBF

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Krisztian,

Le 24/07/2013 18:16, Krisztian Pinter a écrit :
I just tried the first implementation of the new startcenter in the
master. It is interesting to view the recent documents but there is a
problem in the actual implementation in which it is impossible to see
the entire name of the file. Do you plan to offer different views of the
list, like icons, detailed list and compact list?

My opinion on the matter:
It'd be good to keep the number of views simple.
A detailed list makes sense, but I don't see much of a point in an icon list (thumbnails are much more informational, icons just show the file type and are completely useless when you're not on the "All" tab). I'm not in favor of a compact list either -- if you need a list, use the detailed list view, if you need to browse quickly, use the thumbnail view. I realize that the compact view is much more compact, but it doesn't seem worth the work and the UI overhead.

In the mockup (here:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Start_Center) the
filenames follow the old ms-dos 8 digit rule; am I wrong if I assume
that, today, nobody still uses that rule in the real life ? ;-)

Sorry, I left out the handling of long names from the proposal.
Given that Gnome Documents [1] uses the same layout, how about adopting their way -- limiting the filename to two rows, and if it doesn't fit, cutting it off about 8 characters from the end of the word, if I'm not mistaken. You can ask Jon McCann or Jakub Steiner about the specifics, if you'd like.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

Hi,

Le 14/08/2013 08:51, Mirek M. a écrit :

> On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Krisztian,
>
>     Le 24/07/2013 18:16, Krisztian Pinter a écrit :
>     > Hi all!
>     >
>     > I'm working on this GSoC
>     > project:
>     https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Gsoc/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center
>
>     I just tried the first implementation of the new startcenter in the
>     master. It is interesting to view the recent documents but there is a
>     problem in the actual implementation in which it is impossible to see
>     the entire name of the file. Do you plan to offer different views of the
>     list, like icons, detailed list and compact list?
>
>
> My opinion on the matter:
> It'd be good to keep the number of views simple.
> A detailed list makes sense, but I don't see much of a point in an icon
> list (thumbnails are much more informational, icons just show the file
> type and are completely useless when you're not on the "All" tab).

I disagree, icons are useful even when you are not on the "All" tab to
distinguish between ODF, MSO files or other document formats.
I think thumbnails are informational if you have the possibility to zoom
temporary on a particular thumbnail to see a more detailed view. In
other cases I prefer icons and filenames.

> I'm not in favor of a compact list either -- if you need a list, use the
> detailed list view, if you need to browse quickly, use the thumbnail
> view. I realize that the compact view is much more compact, but it
> doesn't seem worth the work and the UI overhead.

I agree, it was just an example of the different possible views.

>
>
>     In the mockup (here:
>     https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Start_Center) the
>     filenames follow the old ms-dos 8 digit rule; am I wrong if I assume
>     that, today, nobody still uses that rule in the real life ? ;-)
>
>
> Sorry, I left out the handling of long names from the proposal.
> Given that Gnome Documents [1] uses the same layout, how about adopting
> their way -- limiting the filename to two rows, and if it doesn't fit,
> cutting it off about 8 characters from the end of the word, if I'm not
> mistaken. You can ask Jon McCann or Jakub Steiner about the specifics,
> if you'd like.

Why only 2 rows? If the files systems allow to have long filenames,
applications should not decide to nullify this functionality.

In a detailed list view, each column should be adjustable. Indeed it is
very common to have filenames longer than 30 characters and
distinguishable only by their last characters (for example when using
suffixes like _v01, _v02, etc.).

As the new StartCenter becomes a kind of document manager, it should be
very useful if it allowed to right-click on a document to display some
useful informations like size, pathname, last modified date, etc.

From an accessibility point of view, tooltips should be displayed in the
thumbnails view.

Another function which could be very useful is "remove all not existent
local files from the recent files list".

Best regards.
JBF

--
Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by Krisztian Pinter
Hi Krisztian

Nice work so far.

I'm no UX-expert but one thing that struck me when trying out the new start center was that I did not immediately find how to open an empty document. I had to choose a category to find the new document button. Wouldn't it make sense to add all buttons (new document, new spreadsheet, new ...) to the all tab?
Regards,
Niklas Johansson
Krisztian Pinter skrev 2013-07-24 18:16:
Hi all!


"Currently, the Start Center (the start screen you get when you start LibreOffice) is only a static bitmap, with few buttons and links. It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff.
See this overview and WidgetLayout to get more information about the Widget Layout (this part is actually very similar to the above mentioned task). Additionally, code for rendering the thumbnails will have to be introduced, and maybe some code sharing with the new Template Manager will be needed too."

I've already converted the current startcenter to .ui, and it has been merged to master, but it's still being improved. I'm currently working on adding thumbnails for recent docs.

I'd like to request a mockup for the startcenter (with thumbnails for recent docs), so we can make it look nice and pretty.

Kendy, my GSoC mentor, listed these points as his preference:
>* Keep the buttons to start apps some way (but they could be smaller or organized another way
>* Keep the LibreOffice logo, but the other visual things (like the shadows etc.) might go from my point of view
>* Make it resizable, so that the screen size is better used (ie. no more fixed rectangle in the middle of the screen)

Looking forward to your feedback!

All the best,
Krisztian


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

Hi!

Thank you!

In the original mockup, new document buttons were on the "all" tab, I just haven't added them yet in this first iteration, but I will later.

All the best,
Krisztian


On 16 August 2013 14:34, Niklas Johansson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Krisztian

Nice work so far.

I'm no UX-expert but one thing that struck me when trying out the new start center was that I did not immediately find how to open an empty document. I had to choose a category to find the new document button. Wouldn't it make sense to add all buttons (new document, new spreadsheet, new ...) to the all tab?
Regards,
Niklas Johansson
Krisztian Pinter skrev 2013-07-24 18:16:
Hi all!


"Currently, the Start Center (the start screen you get when you start LibreOffice) is only a static bitmap, with few buttons and links. It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff.
See this overview and WidgetLayout to get more information about the Widget Layout (this part is actually very similar to the above mentioned task). Additionally, code for rendering the thumbnails will have to be introduced, and maybe some code sharing with the new Template Manager will be needed too."

I've already converted the current startcenter to .ui, and it has been merged to master, but it's still being improved. I'm currently working on adding thumbnails for recent docs.

I'd like to request a mockup for the startcenter (with thumbnails for recent docs), so we can make it look nice and pretty.

Kendy, my GSoC mentor, listed these points as his preference:
>* Keep the buttons to start apps some way (but they could be smaller or organized another way
>* Keep the LibreOffice logo, but the other visual things (like the shadows etc.) might go from my point of view
>* Make it resizable, so that the screen size is better used (ie. no more fixed rectangle in the middle of the screen)

Looking forward to your feedback!

All the best,
Krisztian


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by Krisztian Pinter
Hi Krisztian,

Le 24/07/2013 18:16, Krisztian Pinter a écrit :
> Hi all!
>
> I'm working on this GSoC
> project: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Gsoc/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center

Another problem with the current implementation: it seems not possible
to browse the recent files by using left and right arrays on the
keyboard, it is only possible to click on thumbnails with the mouse
which is not the most efficient for many users.

Best regards.
JBF

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste Faure
Hi,

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Le 14/08/2013 08:51, Mirek M. a écrit :
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Krisztian,
>
>     Le 24/07/2013 18:16, Krisztian Pinter a écrit :
>     > Hi all!
>     >
>     > I'm working on this GSoC
>     > project:
>     https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Gsoc/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center
>
>     I just tried the first implementation of the new startcenter in the
>     master. It is interesting to view the recent documents but there is a
>     problem in the actual implementation in which it is impossible to see
>     the entire name of the file. Do you plan to offer different views of the
>     list, like icons, detailed list and compact list?
>
>
> My opinion on the matter:
> It'd be good to keep the number of views simple.
> A detailed list makes sense, but I don't see much of a point in an icon
> list (thumbnails are much more informational, icons just show the file
> type and are completely useless when you're not on the "All" tab).

I disagree, icons are useful even when you are not on the "All" tab to
distinguish between ODF, MSO files or other document formats.

AFAIK, we don't have separate icons for the various file formats right now.
However, if easy separation between these formats was something we needed, we could simply add labels to our thumbnails instead.
This would add clutter, though, so perhaps presenting this information as a file extension might be better.
 
I think thumbnails are informational if you have the possibility to zoom
temporary on a particular thumbnail to see a more detailed view. In
other cases I prefer icons and filenames.

You should use list view, then. :)

> I'm not in favor of a compact list either -- if you need a list, use the
> detailed list view, if you need to browse quickly, use the thumbnail
> view. I realize that the compact view is much more compact, but it
> doesn't seem worth the work and the UI overhead.

I agree, it was just an example of the different possible views.

>
>
>     In the mockup (here:
>     https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Start_Center) the
>     filenames follow the old ms-dos 8 digit rule; am I wrong if I assume
>     that, today, nobody still uses that rule in the real life ? ;-)
>
>
> Sorry, I left out the handling of long names from the proposal.
> Given that Gnome Documents [1] uses the same layout, how about adopting
> their way -- limiting the filename to two rows, and if it doesn't fit,
> cutting it off about 8 characters from the end of the word, if I'm not
> mistaken. You can ask Jon McCann or Jakub Steiner about the specifics,
> if you'd like.

Why only 2 rows? If the files systems allow to have long filenames,
applications should not decide to nullify this functionality.

I was basing the design on that of Gnome Documents, where the reasoning is to keep a nice layout going.
iWork and Google Drive go even further and allow one line for filenames.

Perhaps you're right, though -- maybe we should leave the file names up to the user. Still, I'd be more comfortable limiting the name to at least 3 or 4 rows, to make sure a single file doesn't completely break the layout.

In a detailed list view, each column should be adjustable. Indeed it is
very common to have filenames longer than 30 characters and
distinguishable only by their last characters (for example when using
suffixes like _v01, _v02, etc.).

Yes -- that's why the cuttoff should leave about 8 characters at the end of the word. (Gnome's example is "Filetype icon is really a severe an..xception".)

As the new StartCenter becomes a kind of document manager, it should be
very useful if it allowed to right-click on a document to display some
useful informations like size, pathname, last modified date, etc. 

From an accessibility point of view, tooltips should be displayed in the
thumbnails view.

Tooltips with what information?
(Tooltips should show the full title if it's cut off.)

Another function which could be very useful is "remove all not existent
local files from the recent files list".

This should be done automatically, not with a button.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Mirek M. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Le 14/08/2013 08:51, Mirek M. a écrit :
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Krisztian,
>
>     Le 24/07/2013 18:16, Krisztian Pinter a écrit :
>     > Hi all!
>     >
>     > I'm working on this GSoC
>     > project:
>     https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Gsoc/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center
>
>     I just tried the first implementation of the new startcenter in the
>     master. It is interesting to view the recent documents but there is a
>     problem in the actual implementation in which it is impossible to see
>     the entire name of the file. Do you plan to offer different views of the
>     list, like icons, detailed list and compact list?
>
>
> My opinion on the matter:
> It'd be good to keep the number of views simple.
> A detailed list makes sense, but I don't see much of a point in an icon
> list (thumbnails are much more informational, icons just show the file
> type and are completely useless when you're not on the "All" tab).

I disagree, icons are useful even when you are not on the "All" tab to
distinguish between ODF, MSO files or other document formats.

AFAIK, we don't have separate icons for the various file formats right now.
However, if easy separation between these formats was something we needed, we could simply add labels to our thumbnails instead.
This would add clutter, though, so perhaps presenting this information as a file extension might be better.
 
I think thumbnails are informational if you have the possibility to zoom
temporary on a particular thumbnail to see a more detailed view. In
other cases I prefer icons and filenames.

You should use list view, then. :)

> I'm not in favor of a compact list either -- if you need a list, use the
> detailed list view, if you need to browse quickly, use the thumbnail
> view. I realize that the compact view is much more compact, but it
> doesn't seem worth the work and the UI overhead.

I agree, it was just an example of the different possible views.

>
>
>     In the mockup (here:
>     https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Start_Center) the
>     filenames follow the old ms-dos 8 digit rule; am I wrong if I assume
>     that, today, nobody still uses that rule in the real life ? ;-)
>
>
> Sorry, I left out the handling of long names from the proposal.
> Given that Gnome Documents [1] uses the same layout, how about adopting
> their way -- limiting the filename to two rows, and if it doesn't fit,
> cutting it off about 8 characters from the end of the word, if I'm not
> mistaken. You can ask Jon McCann or Jakub Steiner about the specifics,
> if you'd like.

Why only 2 rows? If the files systems allow to have long filenames,
applications should not decide to nullify this functionality.

I was basing the design on that of Gnome Documents, where the reasoning is to keep a nice layout going.
iWork and Google Drive go even further and allow one line for filenames.

Perhaps you're right, though -- maybe we should leave the file names up to the user. Still, I'd be more comfortable limiting the name to at least 3 or 4 rows, to make sure a single file doesn't completely break the layout.

In a detailed list view, each column should be adjustable.

Forgot to comment this:
Here, again, I'd like to adopt the Gnome Documents layout, which is not adjustable, but works well with just about any reasonable window size.
The columns are:
1) Small thumbnails
2) Titile on the first row, the author in a lighter font on the second row. This column has maximum width.
3) File type (for us, simply "ODF" or "DOC" would do)
4) Local vs. cloud storage (not applicable for us right now)
5) Date of last edit.

That said, maybe the list view is a bit premature at this point.

Indeed it is
very common to have filenames longer than 30 characters and
distinguishable only by their last characters (for example when using
suffixes like _v01, _v02, etc.).

Yes -- that's why the cuttoff should leave about 8 characters at the end of the word. (Gnome's example is "Filetype icon is really a severe an..xception".)

As the new StartCenter becomes a kind of document manager, it should be
very useful if it allowed to right-click on a document to display some
useful informations like size, pathname, last modified date, etc. 

From an accessibility point of view, tooltips should be displayed in the
thumbnails view.

Tooltips with what information?
(Tooltips should show the full title if it's cut off.)

Another function which could be very useful is "remove all not existent
local files from the recent files list".

This should be done automatically, not with a button.


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

Hello,

I'd like to point out some ideas of mine for the new start center as well,

1. Tabs labeled All, Documents, Spreadsheets etc. would look better if they are located right under the window bar, currently they look like they've been pressed down by the Open/Templates buttons and LibreOffice logo area. 
2. Changing the application background colour from settings change the SC background as well as usual, and LibreOffice logo looks bad under certain colours, not readable at all. Personally I am not sure if we ever need a LO logo for the Start Center, it just takes up space. 
3. Info, Get Templates, Get Extensions buttons should be located on the lower corner, not upper. Again waste of space. 
4. Open/Templates buttons are very very big, and they look very alienated on OS X. Have no idea about the other platforms. 
5. New document buttons under the tabs are also very big, they do not look native, and they leave very valuable space wasted on the right side of the buttons. Same case for the small buttons under the All Recent tab.
6. Also mentioned here before, Recent Documents are would offer more file manager capabilities, basic functions like longer file names, ability to drag&drop, a search bar, and a system right click context menu!
7. When a recent document is opened, window should maximise itself by default,  at least there should be an option to maximise the window automatically, a normal user would probably maximise the window area after opening a document. 
8. As a long term goal, it would be better to merge templates window into the start center. 

Best regards,

Emir Yâsin SARI



18 Ağu 2013 tarihinde 14:16 saatinde, Mirek M. şunları yazdı:

On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Mirek M. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Le 14/08/2013 08:51, Mirek M. a écrit :
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Krisztian,
>
>     Le 24/07/2013 18:16, Krisztian Pinter a écrit :
>     > Hi all!
>     >
>     > I'm working on this GSoC
>     > project:
>     https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Gsoc/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center
>
>     I just tried the first implementation of the new startcenter in the
>     master. It is interesting to view the recent documents but there is a
>     problem in the actual implementation in which it is impossible to see
>     the entire name of the file. Do you plan to offer different views of the
>     list, like icons, detailed list and compact list?
>
>
> My opinion on the matter:
> It'd be good to keep the number of views simple.
> A detailed list makes sense, but I don't see much of a point in an icon
> list (thumbnails are much more informational, icons just show the file
> type and are completely useless when you're not on the "All" tab).

I disagree, icons are useful even when you are not on the "All" tab to
distinguish between ODF, MSO files or other document formats.

AFAIK, we don't have separate icons for the various file formats right now.
However, if easy separation between these formats was something we needed, we could simply add labels to our thumbnails instead.
This would add clutter, though, so perhaps presenting this information as a file extension might be better.
 
I think thumbnails are informational if you have the possibility to zoom
temporary on a particular thumbnail to see a more detailed view. In
other cases I prefer icons and filenames.

You should use list view, then. :)

> I'm not in favor of a compact list either -- if you need a list, use the
> detailed list view, if you need to browse quickly, use the thumbnail
> view. I realize that the compact view is much more compact, but it
> doesn't seem worth the work and the UI overhead.

I agree, it was just an example of the different possible views.

>
>
>     In the mockup (here:
>     https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Start_Center) the
>     filenames follow the old ms-dos 8 digit rule; am I wrong if I assume
>     that, today, nobody still uses that rule in the real life ? ;-)
>
>
> Sorry, I left out the handling of long names from the proposal.
> Given that Gnome Documents [1] uses the same layout, how about adopting
> their way -- limiting the filename to two rows, and if it doesn't fit,
> cutting it off about 8 characters from the end of the word, if I'm not
> mistaken. You can ask Jon McCann or Jakub Steiner about the specifics,
> if you'd like.

Why only 2 rows? If the files systems allow to have long filenames,
applications should not decide to nullify this functionality.

I was basing the design on that of Gnome Documents, where the reasoning is to keep a nice layout going.
iWork and Google Drive go even further and allow one line for filenames.

Perhaps you're right, though -- maybe we should leave the file names up to the user. Still, I'd be more comfortable limiting the name to at least 3 or 4 rows, to make sure a single file doesn't completely break the layout.

In a detailed list view, each column should be adjustable.

Forgot to comment this:
Here, again, I'd like to adopt the Gnome Documents layout, which is not adjustable, but works well with just about any reasonable window size.
The columns are:
1) Small thumbnails
2) Titile on the first row, the author in a lighter font on the second row. This column has maximum width.
3) File type (for us, simply "ODF" or "DOC" would do)
4) Local vs. cloud storage (not applicable for us right now)
5) Date of last edit.

That said, maybe the list view is a bit premature at this point.

Indeed it is
very common to have filenames longer than 30 characters and
distinguishable only by their last characters (for example when using
suffixes like _v01, _v02, etc.).

Yes -- that's why the cuttoff should leave about 8 characters at the end of the word. (Gnome's example is "Filetype icon is really a severe an..xception".)

As the new StartCenter becomes a kind of document manager, it should be
very useful if it allowed to right-click on a document to display some
useful informations like size, pathname, last modified date, etc. 

From an accessibility point of view, tooltips should be displayed in the
thumbnails view.

Tooltips with what information?
(Tooltips should show the full title if it's cut off.)

Another function which could be very useful is "remove all not existent
local files from the recent files list".

This should be done automatically, not with a button.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

4. Open/Templates buttons are very very big, and they look very alienated on OS X. Have no idea about the other platforms. 

Well, the whole Start Centre concept is alien to OS X and Windows if you ask me... That we use it on those platforms, too, is just because we don't have resources to DTRT.

--tml

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by Krisztian Pinter
Le 24/07/13 18:16, Krisztian Pinter a écrit :


One major problem with document previews is that there are none for ODB
files. When one works with ODT and ODB files regularly (as I do), this
makes for one ugly startscreen, interspersed with ODT previews and Base
app icons. Unfortunately, I do not know what could be done about this,
other than perhaps providing a fake placeholder preview for the ODB
documents, but I've no idea how that would work or what form it could take.


Alex

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by Tor Lillqvist-2
Le 26/08/13 09:42, Tor Lillqvist a écrit :


>
> Well, the whole Start Centre concept is alien to OS X and Windows if you
> ask me... That we use it on those platforms, too, is just because we
> don't have resources to DTRT.
>

Yup.

For example, when you launch the Pages application, you get the basic
OSX Finder window in the default directory where documents are stored
(i.e. "Documents"), and a "New Document" button to the bottom left of
the window. Clicking on this then opens the Template dialog window, with
a list of possible template categories in the left hand pane, and
previews of these templates in the main window pane. Note that the
templates are displayed as if they were on a lighttable, with a black
background.

TextEdit does the OSX Finder dialog first.

MS Word/Excel/Powerpoint 2011 for Mac opens the Template dialog window
immediately, without going through a Finder dialog first, using a same
black background lighttable display. Online templates are available by a
simple click on the corresponding menu entry in the left hand pane.

The nearest I've found to the proposed new LO startscreen on OSX is
Scribus 1.3.8 ;-)



Alex



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by bitigçi
Hi Emir,

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Emir Yâsin SARI <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

I'd like to point out some ideas of mine for the new start center as well,

1. Tabs labeled All, Documents, Spreadsheets etc. would look better if they are located right under the window bar, currently they look like they've been pressed down by the Open/Templates buttons and LibreOffice logo area. 

+1
 
2. Changing the application background colour from settings change the SC background as well as usual, and LibreOffice logo looks bad under certain colours, not readable at all. Personally I am not sure if we ever need a LO logo for the Start Center, it just takes up space.

+1 to getting rid of the logo
 
3. Info, Get Templates, Get Extensions buttons should be located on the lower corner, not upper. Again waste of space.

Not sure if these are relevant here as well.
Get Templates would be better off in the Template manager, Get Extensions in the Extension manager, and it's enough to have Info, which just links to the homepage, in the About dialog.
 
4. Open/Templates buttons are very very big, and they look very alienated on OS X. Have no idea about the other platforms.

Ideally, these should be toolbar buttons, as in the proposal. [1]
 
5. New document buttons under the tabs are also very big, they do not look native, and they leave very valuable space wasted on the right side of the buttons. Same case for the small buttons under the All Recent tab.

+1
 
6. Also mentioned here before, Recent Documents are would offer more file manager capabilities, basic functions like longer file names, ability to drag&drop, a search bar, and a system right click context menu!

The long-term goal for the Start Center, at least how I envision it, is similar to that of mobile/web applications or Apple's Document Library [2]: have an application-specific file browser with a simple one-level folder hierarchy with the primary function of finding and opening a file, not "managing" it.

Based on that, drag-and-drop, to me, makes only sense in terms of grouping documents into folders, in a similar way to the way folders work on the Android or iOS homescreen or in Apple's Document Library. Did you mean that or did you have something else in mind?
A search bar makes sense as well.
Instead of a right-click system menu, I'd prefer to reserve the right click for selection, as is the behavior of the new kind of Windows 8 apps and the new Gnome apps (Documents, Clocks, ...). By selecting something, the toolbar should change to present selection-relevant commands, which is the same as you'd expect from a right-click menu, with the advantage of being more discoverable and touch-accessible.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "Longer file names"? Does the current implementation not allow long filenames? Or do you mean showing the whole file name no matter how long it is?

7. When a recent document is opened, window should maximise itself by default,  at least there should be an option to maximise the window automatically, a normal user would probably maximise the window area after opening a document.

This setting should be saved with the document. It should have nothing to do with the Start Center.
 
8. As a long term goal, it would be better to merge templates window into the start center.

It'd be good if these two could share as much as possible, though I'm not 100% sure they should be merged. I have no idea about the technical aspects, though, so I don't have an educated opinion on this.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by Alex Thurgood
On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Alexander Thurgood <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 24/07/13 18:16, Krisztian Pinter a écrit :


One major problem with document previews is that there are none for ODB
files. When one works with ODT and ODB files regularly (as I do), this
makes for one ugly startscreen, interspersed with ODT previews and Base
app icons. Unfortunately, I do not know what could be done about this,
other than perhaps providing a fake placeholder preview for the ODB
documents, but I've no idea how that would work or what form it could take.

The Base tab itself could be presented as a list rather than a grid.

IMHO, it'd be great if LibreOffice could present each of its modules as completely separate applications, regardless of the fact that it's really just one.
Launching a module would launch the module-specific section of the Start Center, only without tabs for the other modules. It would, in effect, be very much like mobile apps or Apple's Document Library [1]. The advantage of that would be being able to tweak the UI of each module based on the content it works with.

[1] http://ia.net/blog/mountain-lions-new-file-system/

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi Mirek,


6 Eyl 2013 tarihinde 14:07 saatinde, Mirek M. şunları yazdı:

 
4. Open/Templates buttons are very very big, and they look very alienated on OS X. Have no idea about the other platforms.

Ideally, these should be toolbar buttons, as in the proposal. [1]

This is it! And with toolbar functions, other basic find, modify actions could be easily implemented. 
 
5. New document buttons under the tabs are also very big, they do not look native, and they leave very valuable space wasted on the right side of the buttons. Same case for the small buttons under the All Recent tab.

+1

Again, to be solved with the toolbar approach. 
 
6. Also mentioned here before, Recent Documents are would offer more file manager capabilities, basic functions like longer file names, ability to drag&drop, a search bar, and a system right click context menu!

The long-term goal for the Start Center, at least how I envision it, is similar to that of mobile/web applications or Apple's Document Library [2]: have an application-specific file browser with a simple one-level folder hierarchy with the primary function of finding and opening a file, not "managing" it.

Based on that, drag-and-drop, to me, makes only sense in terms of grouping documents into folders, in a similar way to the way folders work on the Android or iOS homescreen or in Apple's Document Library. Did you mean that or did you have something else in mind?
A search bar makes sense as well.
Instead of a right-click system menu, I'd prefer to reserve the right click for selection, as is the behavior of the new kind of Windows 8 apps and the new Gnome apps (Documents, Clocks, ...). By selecting something, the toolbar should change to present selection-relevant commands, which is the same as you'd expect from a right-click menu, with the advantage of being more discoverable and touch-accessible.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "Longer file names"? Does the current implementation not allow long filenames? Or do you mean showing the whole file name no matter how long it is?

EXACTLY. 

and as a future reference for 10.9 Mavericks release: TAGS.

For this we need to follow a different approach though. Currently SC acts as a bridge to the other components within the single window (application) LibreOffice, which IMHO we need to get rid of in time. What needs to be done is like NeoOffice getting rid of the SC as a whole, and implement the individual file manager window which recent OS X applications started to use (with iCloud) integration. I am not sure what would this take, but since every new OS X application uses the same window, seems like a feasible approach (or there is an API for this?). If someone with developer superpowers would enlighten us, that would be great actually. 

For the file names, well, it only allows eight characters (counting three dots as one character), although tooltips have been recently introduced, it would still give a better look. 

Best regards,
Emir




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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [GSoC] Use Widget Layout for the Start Center

In reply to this post by mirek2
IMHO, it'd be great if LibreOffice could present each of its modules as completely separate applications,

Hmm, that would mean LOTS of changes to our packaging and distribution on OS X (something for which there isn't exactly an abundance of engineering resources), where there now is just one app bundle, LibreOffice.app. You mean there would be separate LibreOfficeWriter.app, LibreOfficeCalc.app, etc? Where would their shared code be? (Duplicated in each app? Sure, that would work, but the usual suspects would whine "think of the people who have to pay $$ per megabyte of download") How would installing such a thing work, if on a .dmg, dragging each .app separately to /Applications? Etc...

--tml 

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