[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Hi guys,

Janit was volunteering to look into

 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41572

and is struggling a bit how to best achieve that. The bug report there
muddles a few things up it seems, it is also not entirely clear what
should happen if one assigns a new master page to an existing slide.

Another idea Janit was pondering is to not use the master page
concept, but rather provide bulk-assignment options in the custom
animation pane (comparable to the slide transitions - selected slides
in the slide sorter get the effect). Though clearly that needs some
fleshing-out.

Would someone here want to work with him to come up with a nice
workflow for this very useful feature?

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Hi,

Le 05/03/2013 19:00, Thorsten Behrens a écrit :

> Hi guys,
>
> Janit was volunteering to look into
>
>   https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41572
>
> and is struggling a bit how to best achieve that. The bug report there
> muddles a few things up it seems, it is also not entirely clear what
> should happen if one assigns a new master page to an existing slide.
>
> Another idea Janit was pondering is to not use the master page
> concept, but rather provide bulk-assignment options in the custom
> animation pane (comparable to the slide transitions - selected slides
> in the slide sorter get the effect). Though clearly that needs some
> fleshing-out.
>
> Would someone here want to work with him to come up with a nice
> workflow for this very useful feature?
>

It's a subject I've been investigating months ago as it's a basic
feature of a slideshow software. But I got no perfect solution yet...
disclaimer : I searched ideas to easily apply appearance animation on
slide objects and lines in textfield. It's not exactly this bug, but
it's related.

Beside the UX problem, I've seen something more annoying that seems
technically-related :
- enter several lines in the main content textfield
- apply an animation : every line will appear after one click
- then insert some new lines in the textfield
--> the existing animation is not updated and provide an awfull order of
appearance.

This problem is related to technical implementation : there are objects
of type 'animation' linked to objects in the slide.

In order to solve those problems (fdo#41572 and the update), we need to
know what changes are possible form a dev point of view ?
here are some questions as a first brainstorm :
- are we stuck with a separation betweens objects in slides and
animation objects ? is it related to ODF format ?
- can we imagine some visual changes of objects to indicate the order of
appearance ?

The idea of using master slide for that is interesting, but will not
cover all uses case (when a user just want that effect on only one slide
for ex).

This functionality is so important that we have to create a very good UX
design, and prepare/prototype everything before starting a single line
of code.

As you may have guessed, I'm interested to work on this subject ;-)
I hope you're ok.

Thanks,
Michel
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Hey Michel!
 
I am glad you are even interested to work on the same and yeah even i have researched quite a lot about the same and as i had suggested we should provide the user with an option for adding custom animation to TEXT(as in which slide no. to apply the effect,etc.) Hence i would like to hear more from you as i am planning to work on the same and hence to contribute better,i am sure more the suggestions and ideas the better it turns out to be.
 
I know that this is a huge idea that has to be put into place but i will try the best from my end so as to contribute in an efficient manner.
 
Regards,
Janit


On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Michel Renon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Le 05/03/2013 19:00, Thorsten Behrens a écrit :

Hi guys,

Janit was volunteering to look into

  https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41572

and is struggling a bit how to best achieve that. The bug report there
muddles a few things up it seems, it is also not entirely clear what
should happen if one assigns a new master page to an existing slide.

Another idea Janit was pondering is to not use the master page
concept, but rather provide bulk-assignment options in the custom
animation pane (comparable to the slide transitions - selected slides
in the slide sorter get the effect). Though clearly that needs some
fleshing-out.

Would someone here want to work with him to come up with a nice
workflow for this very useful feature?


It's a subject I've been investigating months ago as it's a basic feature of a slideshow software. But I got no perfect solution yet...
disclaimer : I searched ideas to easily apply appearance animation on slide objects and lines in textfield. It's not exactly this bug, but it's related.

Beside the UX problem, I've seen something more annoying that seems technically-related :
- enter several lines in the main content textfield
- apply an animation : every line will appear after one click
- then insert some new lines in the textfield
--> the existing animation is not updated and provide an awfull order of appearance.

This problem is related to technical implementation : there are objects of type 'animation' linked to objects in the slide.

In order to solve those problems (fdo#41572 and the update), we need to know what changes are possible form a dev point of view ?
here are some questions as a first brainstorm :
- are we stuck with a separation betweens objects in slides and animation objects ? is it related to ODF format ?
- can we imagine some visual changes of objects to indicate the order of appearance ?

The idea of using master slide for that is interesting, but will not cover all uses case (when a user just want that effect on only one slide for ex).

This functionality is so important that we have to create a very good UX design, and prepare/prototype everything before starting a single line of code.

As you may have guessed, I'm interested to work on this subject ;-)
I hope you're ok.

Thanks,
Michel


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Hi Thorsten, Janit,

In order to work on that problem, I would like to have some technical
advise about what can be implemented or not.
(just to avoid wasting time by designing things that can't be implemented)
Well this mail is mostly for Thorsten as you're the official mentor of
Impress/Draw.

- Is it possible to implement some visual changes on objects in slides ?
ex : add some small widget beside (or inside?) an object to indicate a
status or to show a popup to activate some changes. Or have a special
border.
These widgets/borders would be shown via a menu command, or via a mouse
hover, only while designing the slide.

Here is an example of such widgets in a RAD tool to build forms. On the
left, the standard view, on the right, the widgets indicate the tab
order of 3 textfields in form :
http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/text_order_form.png


- Is it possible to implement some visual changes on every single line/
some lines of a textfield ? It's a detailed version  of the previous
point : can a line in a textfield have some widget ? or be drawn with
some special border ?


- today, the 'animation objects' are linked to object in slides, but is
the reverse also true ?
ie if user modify a slide object, can the animation object be updated
automatically ?


The answers may have 4 values :
-1- it can be implemented immediately, no changes required in VCL
-2- it can be implemented after some work in VCL (and other) ; the
average delay is few weeks (< 2 months) of devs
-3- it can be implemented after a long work in VCL (and other) ; the
average delay is > 2 months
-4- it can't be implemented, can't be done in VCL

well, if you find a fifth answer, tell me !


And two open questions :

- In this whole subject, what objects are linked to ODF format ?
(ie : what can be changed without changing the file format)

- what are the technical limitations related to animations in Impress ?



Thanks,

Michel
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Michel Renon wrote:
> In order to work on that problem, I would like to have some
> technical advise about what can be implemented or not.
>
Hi Michel,

as a matter of fact (though a bit tongue-in-cheek) - this is software,
so anything goes. The question rather is how much effort is it. ;)

> (just to avoid wasting time by designing things that can't be
> implemented)
>
Hmm. So in the past there were a few designs that did not get
implemented immediately - but sat there looking really good, and
eventually inspired someone to hack them up. But I see your
point.

> Well this mail is mostly for Thorsten as you're the official mentor
> of Impress/Draw.
>
I'm not - but I happily answer still. :)

> - Is it possible to implement some visual changes on objects in slides ?
> ex : add some small widget beside (or inside?) an object to indicate
> a status or to show a popup to activate some changes. Or have a
> special border.
> These widgets/borders would be shown via a menu command, or via a
> mouse hover, only while designing the slide.
>
Yes, that is possible - there's a concept called SmartTag in Impress,
that is e.g. used to implement this four-way icon at the presentation
placeholder objects ('insert table/chart/picture/movie'), or for
editing motion path animations. So the base technology for that is
there.

> - Is it possible to implement some visual changes on every single
> line/ some lines of a textfield ? It's a detailed version  of the
> previous point : can a line in a textfield have some widget ? or be
> drawn with some special border ?
>
In general yes, though slightly more involved.

> - today, the 'animation objects' are linked to object in slides, but
> is the reverse also true ?
> ie if user modify a slide object, can the animation object be
> updated automatically ?
>
Not sure I get the idea - are you referring to changes e.g. to master
pages, that then translate to all slides using it (that is one aspect
of the original question / task Janit was looking into)?

> The answers may have 4 values :
> -1- it can be implemented immediately, no changes required in VCL
>
This one. ~All the work needed is in sd.

> And two open questions :
>
> - In this whole subject, what objects are linked to ODF format ?
> (ie : what can be changed without changing the file format)
>
From the above - nothing should affect the file format.

> - what are the technical limitations related to animations in Impress ?
>
Going back to my initial comment - the sky is the limit. Without
concrete questions though, hard to answer specifically. ;)

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Hi Thorsten, Janit,

Le 22/03/2013 09:13, Thorsten Behrens a écrit :

> [...]
>
>> - Is it possible to implement some visual changes on objects in slides ?
>> ex : add some small widget beside (or inside?) an object to indicate
>> a status or to show a popup to activate some changes. Or have a
>> special border.
>> These widgets/borders would be shown via a menu command, or via a
>> mouse hover, only while designing the slide.
>>
> Yes, that is possible - there's a concept called SmartTag in Impress,
> that is e.g. used to implement this four-way icon at the presentation
> placeholder objects ('insert table/chart/picture/movie'), or for
> editing motion path animations. So the base technology for that is
> there.

very good news !

>
>> - Is it possible to implement some visual changes on every single
>> line/ some lines of a textfield ? It's a detailed version  of the
>> previous point : can a line in a textfield have some widget ? or be
>> drawn with some special border ?
>>
> In general yes, though slightly more involved.
great !

>
>> - today, the 'animation objects' are linked to object in slides, but
>> is the reverse also true ?
>> ie if user modify a slide object, can the animation object be
>> updated automatically ?
>>
> Not sure I get the idea - are you referring to changes e.g. to master
> pages, that then translate to all slides using it (that is one aspect
> of the original question / task Janit was looking into)?
>

No, I was referring to the edition of a slide, when an animation is
already defined on the lines of text : if you change the content of the
text, the animation is not updated.
 From a user pov, it's really annoying.
 From a technical pov, is it possible to implement it ?
(I suppose it has nothing to do with UX, only code, and "just" define
rules to handle different use cases)


>> [...]
>

With all your first answers, I started to brainstorm some ideas.
I'll begin to mockup them in few days. I'll create a new page on the wiki.

Thanks
Michel
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Michel Renon wrote:
> No, I was referring to the edition of a slide, when an animation is
> already defined on the lines of text : if you change the content of
> the text, the animation is not updated.
>
Right - this is a bug.

> With all your first answers, I started to brainstorm some ideas.
> I'll begin to mockup them in few days. I'll create a new page on the
> wiki.
>
Awesome, looking forward!

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Hi all,

Le 28/03/2013 11:16, Thorsten Behrens a écrit :
> Michel Renon wrote:
>> [...]
>
>> With all your first answers, I started to brainstorm some ideas.
>> I'll begin to mockup them in few days. I'll create a new page on the
>> wiki.
>>
> Awesome, looking forward!

Here it is !

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance

There are 4 use cases and a first proposal.

Is it ok to create a new panel (in the tasks panel) ?

Is it technically possible to create some popups in smartTags ?
If yes, I'll work on a modified proposal.

Cheers,
Michel
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Hey Michel!
 
It is great that you have added something to the wiki page.I will have a look at it,and it would be great if you can provide me with guidance on the UI part so i can give the best possible result to the community under Thorsten's help and your help as well on the UI Part.
 
Hope this finds you in good health.
 
 
Regards,
Janit


On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Michel Renon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Le 28/03/2013 11:16, Thorsten Behrens a écrit :
Michel Renon wrote:
[...]

With all your first answers, I started to brainstorm some ideas.
I'll begin to mockup them in few days. I'll create a new page on the
wiki.

Awesome, looking forward!

Here it is !

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance

There are 4 use cases and a first proposal.

Is it ok to create a new panel (in the tasks panel) ?

Is it technically possible to create some popups in smartTags ?
If yes, I'll work on a modified proposal.

Cheers,
Michel


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

In reply to this post by Michel RENON
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:59 PM, Michel Renon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Le 28/03/2013 11:16, Thorsten Behrens a écrit :
Michel Renon wrote:
[...]

With all your first answers, I started to brainstorm some ideas.
I'll begin to mockup them in few days. I'll create a new page on the
wiki.

Awesome, looking forward!

Here it is !

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance

There are 4 use cases and a first proposal.

Is it ok to create a new panel (in the tasks panel) ?

Aren't entrance animations just a subset of custom animations? What about other kinds of animations, like exit animations? Don't they deserve equal treatment?

Except for fewer clicks, what would the new panel bring? Aren't all of the options it contains already available via Effect Options?

I would rather opt for redesigning the current custom animation panel than adding a new panel, especially as the task pane is overpopulated as is.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Hey Mirek!
I agree to what you said about the entrance animations.Managing the exit animations doesnt seem to be a much bigger task.I know this because i have been working on the concept patch and hence i think this task is doable by adding more and more features which would make things easier and more user-friendly for all our users.
I dont particularly suggest adding a complete new panel,rather it is better using the same panel we can see in the present case...but add certain push buttons that can provide more functionality.
Any more suggestions will surely help me code more and better.
Hope this finds you in good health.
:)
( And yeah it was accidental that i sent it just to you,and no CCd the mailing list :/ )
Regards,
Janit


On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Mirek M. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Janit,
You seem to have sent the e-mail only to me. Was that accidental?
If it was, please send it to the mailing list.
Thanks. :)


On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Janit Anjaria <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Mirek!
 
I agree to what you said about the entrance animations.Managing the exit animations doesnt seem to be a much bigger task.I know this because i have been working on the concept patch and hence i think this task is doable by adding more and more features which would make things easier and more user-friendly for all our users.
 
I dont particularly suggest adding a complete new panel,rather it is better using the same panel we can see in the present case...but add certain push buttons that can provide more functionality.
 
Any more suggestions will surely help me code more and better.
 
Hope this finds you in good health.
 :)
 
Regards,
Janit


On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Mirek M. <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:59 PM, Michel Renon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

Le 28/03/2013 11:16, Thorsten Behrens a écrit :
Michel Renon wrote:
[...]

With all your first answers, I started to brainstorm some ideas.
I'll begin to mockup them in few days. I'll create a new page on the
wiki.

Awesome, looking forward!

Here it is !

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance

There are 4 use cases and a first proposal.

Is it ok to create a new panel (in the tasks panel) ?

Aren't entrance animations just a subset of custom animations? What about other kinds of animations, like exit animations? Don't they deserve equal treatment?

Except for fewer clicks, what would the new panel bring? Aren't all of the options it contains already available via Effect Options?

I would rather opt for redesigning the current custom animation panel than adding a new panel, especially as the task pane is overpopulated as is.




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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi,

Le 01/05/2013 18:33, Mirek M. a écrit :

> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:59 PM, Michel Renon <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> [...]
>
>     Is it ok to create a new panel (in the tasks panel) ?
>
>
> Aren't entrance animations just a subset of custom animations? What
> about other kinds of animations, like exit animations? Don't they
> deserve equal treatment?


I don't think so.

Entrance animation are at the core of slideshows :
- if you show all lines at once, your audience will spend a lot of time
reading instead of listening to you
- if you show line by line, you keep control on the slideshow, you can
let them imagine the next line will be a surprise...
- it's quite boring when a slide content doesn't change for a long time

So, yes, entrance animation are very important, while other are nearly
optional.

And I'm not the only one : look at Powerpoint 2003 : it behaves just
like that :
- with one or two click (in the ribbon, top-left : very important
button), you can define the default entrance animation
- for all other animations, you use the standard Animation panel


It's the "shower faucet" principle :
http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/robinet_douche.jpg

>
> Except for fewer clicks, what would the new panel bring?

it brings :
- a clear, obvious and consistent UX
- very easy to discover : the title of the panel is explicit
- very easy to use : only 3 popups with immediate change
- a shortcut to the most used functionality



> Aren't all of
> the options it contains already available via Effect Options?

Yes, but hidden in an terrible UI and behind a lot of clicks, icons and
dialogs.

My proposal tries to optimize the definition of entrance animation of
the main textfield.

If the user wants to make something special, he just has to use the
Custom Animation as today.

>
> I would rather opt for redesigning the current custom animation panel
> than adding a new panel, especially as the task pane is overpopulated as is.

the Custom Animation panel really needs enhancements. But this is
different from my proposal : whatever redesign you do for the Custom
Animation, it will never be as useful as my proposal.
And, as said before, entrance animation are at the core : optimizing
them will change life of 100% of Impress users. While other animation
are not at the core : today, it's not worth working on other animations,
let's focus on more important UI/UX tasks (ex :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements).


On a more general point of view, I'm a simple user of Impress. Handling
entrance animation is so complex, buggy that I avoided using it for
years. And some friends refuse to use it because they find it unusable :
simple tasks are complex to perform (ex entrance animations), and buggy,
buggy.


Given that bad UI feedback, I find it much more important to work/focus
on basic/most used functionalities than working on adding unnecessary
functionalities (ex : adding 3D Ultra advanced OpenGL transitions or
simplifying entrance animation ?)
My idea is "First let's make LibreOffice be really easy to use for basic
work. Then, we'll take care of more advanced functionalities."

Michel
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

In reply to this post by Janit Anjaria
Hi Janit,

Le 01/05/2013 18:16, Janit Anjaria a écrit :
> Hey Michel!
> It is great that you have added something to the wiki page.I will have a
> look at it,and it would be great if you can provide me with guidance on
> the UI part so i can give the best possible result to the community
> under Thorsten's help and your help as well on the UI Part.

As the UX is not defined/validated, it may be difficult for me to give
precise clues.

But here are some general suggestions :
- you can look at how LibreOffice handles the Tasks "Panel" :
     - how to add a panel
     - how to hide/disable a panel
     - how to handle widgets in a panel (create, handle events...)

- for the "Custom Animation" panel
     - how does it behaves internally ? ie write documentation about it.
     I wrote nothing about it in my basic feedback [1], but it seems to
me that there are some bugs (ex : some bizarre feedback when you change
order of elements).
     You  may learn *a lot* and it'll be essential for every future
change. Years ago, I had to start a project with a framework (MacApp2).
I spent severals days reading code from the framework to understand the
general architecture. It was an incredible way of learning : when I
started coding, most of basic ideas where already integrated.



Cheers,
Michel






[1]
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Le 03/05/2013 12:51, Michel Renon a écrit :
> Hi Janit,
>
> [...]
>
> But here are some general suggestions :

I forgot :
- you can look at how LibreOffice handles smartTags :
       - how to create them
       - how to handle events
       - can we add some widgets ? (ie a popup in a smarttag ?)


Cheers,

Michel
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Hey Michel!
 
I will just go through all the links to the ideas and references you have provided and work more over it on the weekend and i am pretty sure i will try to come up with something more enhanced than what i have been thinking and it will be an addition to my knowledge :-) ...Thanks anyways and i will let you know about the progress as well on the list :)
 
Regards,
Janit


On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Michel Renon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 03/05/2013 12:51, Michel Renon a écrit :
Hi Janit,

[...]


But here are some general suggestions :

I forgot :
- you can look at how LibreOffice handles smartTags :
      - how to create them
      - how to handle events
      - can we add some widgets ? (ie a popup in a smarttag ?)


Cheers,

Michel


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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Hi Janit, everyone,
It seems we've gotten quite off topic here.
On your original proposal [1], I'm thinking this kind of functionality might be best suited to styles (kind of like CSS animations). Do you think it would be possible to make animations a part of presentation styles?

As for Michel's proposal, I would love to see the animation pane redesigned, really, but I think that discussion is more appropriate for the design mailing list. Could we move that discussion there?

Also, Janit, Thorsten, would you be willing to work on that redesign?
If so, it'd be incredibly useful if you could clarify the scope of the redesign a bit. Or perhaps we could generate a bunch of mockups and create the scope based on them (see which things can be done, which can't).

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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572

Mirek Mazel wrote:
> On your original proposal [1], I'm thinking this kind of
> functionality might be best suited to styles (kind of like CSS
> animations). Do you think it would be possible to make animations a
> part of presentation styles?
>
Yup, that would be my thinking - at least technically, it's how I
would tie that to master pages (which work from how they apply styles
plus background objects to individual slides).

> As for Michel's proposal, I would love to see the animation pane
> redesigned, really, but I think that discussion is more appropriate
> for the design mailing list. Could we move that discussion there?
>
Please. It appears still rather in flux.

> Also, Janit, Thorsten, would you be willing to work on that
> redesign?  If so, it'd be incredibly useful if you could clarify the
> scope of the redesign a bit. Or perhaps we could generate a bunch of
> mockups and create the scope based on them (see which things can be
> done, which can't).
>
It is unlikely I'll personally be able to commit to larger amounts of
time there unfortunately, though would happily help mentoring such an
endeavour.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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