[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

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Bjoern Michaelsen Bjoern Michaelsen
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

Hi guys,

there is a patch to remove the navigator from the scrollbar:

 https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/6045/

Could you guys form a good consensus on if that should be done in the first
place or not, as that patch is block on that right now. Needs to be clarified
best before 4.2 branchoff.

Best,

Bjoern
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ahmad ahmad
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In the first place, does it work? Because it doesn't
for me! when I click on it I get the floating widget
and when I click on any icon on that widget nothing
happens!!

I think, if it does work,  we should leave it or improve it..


   Ahmad


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of bjoern [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Samuel Mehrbrodt
Subject: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the  scrollbar in Writer

Hi guys,

there is a patch to remove the navigator from the scrollbar:

 https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/6045/

Could you guys form a good consensus on if that should be done in the first
place or not, as that patch is block on that right now. Needs to be clarified
best before 4.2 branchoff.

Best,

Bjoern
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تحذير: هذه الرسالة وما تحويه من مرفقات (إن وجدت) تمثل وثيقة سرية قد تحتوي على معلومات محمية بموجب القانون. إذا لم تكن الشخص المعني بهذه الرسالة فيجب عليك تنبيه المُرسل بخطأ وصولها إليك، وحذف الرسالة ومرفقاتها (إن وجدت)، ولا يجوز لك نسخ أو توزيع هذه الرسالة أو مرفقاتها (إن وجدت) أو أي جزء منها، أو البوح بمحتوياتها للغير أو استعمالها لأي غرض. علماً بأن فحوى هذه الرسالة ومرفقاتها (ان وجدت) تعبر عن رأي المُرسل وليس بالضرورة رأي مدينة الملك عبدالعزيز للعلوم والتقنية بالمملكة العربية السعودية، ولا تتحمل المدينة أي مسئولية عن الأضرار الناتجة عن ما قد يحتويه هذا البريد.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

Hi guys,
So, first of all, the button isn't for the Navigator, but rather for the Navigation feature, which is also a part of the Navigator's toolbar.
Given the range of scrollbar sizes, rendering the buttons completely unusable in some cases [1], I would definitely vote for removing these buttons from the scrollbar.
If we get a number of complaints about the feature being available only from the Navigator, we can add it to the status bar, which at least has a static height on all platforms. Given that it's been removed from Office 2013 without vocal complaints (it seems), I don't think there will be need for that.

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Ahmad Hussein Al-Harthi <[hidden email]> wrote:
In the first place, does it work? Because it doesn't
for me! when I click on it I get the floating widget
and when I click on any icon on that widget nothing
happens!!

The icons in the widget ask you to choose what to navigate by. Afterwards, you can use the navigation arrows in the scroll bar to navigate by that element.

I think, if it does work,  we should leave it or improve it..


   Ahmad

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of bjoern [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Samuel Mehrbrodt
Subject: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the  scrollbar in Writer

Hi guys,

there is a patch to remove the navigator from the scrollbar:

 https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/6045/

Could you guys form a good consensus on if that should be done in the first
place or not, as that patch is block on that right now. Needs to be clarified
best before 4.2 branchoff.

Best,

Bjoern

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Regina Henschel Regina Henschel
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by ahmad
Hi Ahmad,

Ahmad Hussein Al-Harthi schrieb:
> In the first place, does it work? Because it doesn't
> for me! when I click on it I get the floating widget
> and when I click on any icon on that widget nothing
> happens!!
>
> I think, if it does work,  we should leave it or improve it..
>

It works as it should. When you click the blue ball, you get a list of
categories. Choose one. Then the arrow up and down above and below the
blue ball traverse through this category.
For example, if the category is "Search" and you have used a search
already, then the arrows do a 'find previous' and 'find next'. And when
the category is "Page", then the arrows do 'goto previous page' and
'goto next page'.

Word 2010 has the same UI element at the same place. I don't know,
whether former MS Office users will miss it. LO users know (or can
know), that the same function is in the upper part of the navigator. The
top, second from left item opens this category chooser.

I personally use it to quickly switch from search, which is
automatically set by the new search bar, to the page up/down mode.

Kind regards
Regina
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi,

Le 14/11/2013 17:10, Mirek M. a écrit :
> I would definitely vote for removing these
> buttons from the scrollbar.

I wouldn't. Many people use it without using the Navigator (yes, they
are wrong but that's life :)

> If we get a number of complaints about the feature being available only
> from the Navigator, we can add it to the status bar, which at least has
> a static height on all platforms.

Wouldn't this add clutter to the status bar?

 Given that it's been removed from
> Office 2013 without vocal complaints (it seems), I don't think there
> will be need for that.

Argh! Stop comparing LibO to MSO. Please. LibO has to get its own
personality and be itself. Promoting styles, for instance :)

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Jean-Baptiste Faure Jean-Baptiste Faure
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by Bjoern Michaelsen
Hi,

Le 14/11/2013 13:02, bjoern a écrit :
> Hi guys,
>
> there is a patch to remove the navigator from the scrollbar:

Gnome syndrome ? ;-)
Too enthusiastic (and erroneous) application of Occam's razor
methodology ? ;-)

Why to keep this navigation feature there ? In the scrollbar, you always
have it at hand. Many users do not have the Navigator always open.

Best regards.
JBF
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by Jean-Francois Nifenecker
On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Le 14/11/2013 17:10, Mirek M. a écrit :
> I would definitely vote for removing these
> buttons from the scrollbar.

I wouldn't. Many people use it without using the Navigator (yes, they
are wrong but that's life :)

Can you back up that statement?
So far, I haven't seen anyone use it, and whenever I ask someone about it, they don't know what it's for.

> If we get a number of complaints about the feature being available only
> from the Navigator, we can add it to the status bar, which at least has
> a static height on all platforms.

Wouldn't this add clutter to the status bar?

Not necessarily.
The three buttons feel right at home next to the navigation section of the status bar (the one that says "Page 1/1"). All that's needed is to add the three buttons next to it. The added advantage here is that we could theme these buttons to fit with the rest of the status bar. iWork Pages does the same thing [1].

Also, the three buttons are cluttering up the scrollbar, where they stick out like a sore thumb. They don't fit in well with any operating system's scroll bars and are sometimes too small to be comfortably targeted with a mouse (and, as mentioned, sometimes even too small for the icons to be visible at all).

 Given that it's been removed from
> Office 2013 without vocal complaints (it seems), I don't think there
> will be need for that.

Argh! Stop comparing LibO to MSO. Please. LibO has to get its own
personality and be itself. Promoting styles, for instance :)

I definitely agree we should forge our own path, and I certainly didn't mean to say "If Microsoft's doing it, let's do it too". However, I felt it was relevant to the discussion that no stink was raised about Microsoft removing the same thing.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste Faure
Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote (14-11-13 21:08)

> Why to keep this navigation feature there ? In the scrollbar, you always
> have it at hand. Many users do not have the Navigator always open.

Yes, why remove it? Because someone does not know what it is for and
does not know that others use it? I see no other good reason for it.

I've seen people years and years back already using it. So why should I
assume they have stopped using it :) ?

Cheers,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi Mirek,

Le 14/11/2013 22:45, Mirek M. a écrit :

> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker
> <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     Le 14/11/2013 17:10, Mirek M. a écrit :
>     > I would definitely vote for removing these
>     > buttons from the scrollbar.
>
>     I wouldn't. Many people use it without using the Navigator (yes, they
>     are wrong but that's life :)
>
>
> Can you back up that statement?

Yes. The first fact is, in the French version at least, the Navigator is
not displayed by defaut. Nor is the Stylist, BTW.

BTW2: I've always felt that those two (Navigator and Stylist) should be
defaulted as anchored on the right side of the screen, the default zoom
being Optimal. That's just my view about the default ;)

If the Navigator is not on screen, the users won't see its items. And
won't use them. I'm dealing with 400+ users and regularly meet 10s more
because of my job. I estimate less than 1% (yes: ONE per cent) have
*ever* wondered what that funny button is for. On a more general pov,
the users are using the text processor as a typewriter. They have no
clue about what can be done using the software. Soem of them actually
see the Navigation button (caution: terms collision) and *do* use it...

>
> Not necessarily.
> The three buttons feel right at home next to the navigation section of
> the status bar (the one that says "Page 1/1"). All that's needed is to
> add the three buttons next to it. The added advantage here is that we
> could theme these buttons to fit with the rest of the status bar. iWork
> Pages does the same thing [1].

Thx for the link.

>
> Also, the three buttons are cluttering up the scrollbar, where they
> stick out like a sore thumb. They don't fit in well with any operating
> system's scroll bars and are sometimes too small to be comfortably
> targeted with a mouse (and, as mentioned, sometimes even too small for
> the icons to be visible at all).

My main gripe with the Navigation buttons is that they are placed very
far from the menus, forcing the user to move the mouse across the screen
(using the Navigator is much more mouse friendly). I'd have them at the
top of the vertical scrollbar instead.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

Hello

I usually use this feature
- To quickly change the type of navigation
- To navigate

The buttons are still accessible (vs. the browser that is not always visible)

They are "well located": it is logical for me to have them close to the vertical scrollbar  (scroll through the document in that direction).

Regards
Pierre-Yves
Samuel Mehrbrodt-2 Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by Bjoern Michaelsen
Hi,

I created that patch, so let me also share my opinion.

The scrollbar is something which height/width depends on the OS and visual theme used. So there are issues where the scrollbar is too small and the widgets are displayed wrongly [1].

Of course there is a use case for the Navigation buttons being quickly accessible, but I don't think the right place for them is below the scrollbar. There is for example already a toolbar which has the navigation buttons (forward and back, see View->Toolbars->Navigation) and we could easily add the "Navigation" button there also. Or we could think about adding it to the statusbar (I would prefer the first).

Thanks
Samuel

[1] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40429 and https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58748 for example


Am 14.11.2013 13:02, schrieb bjoern:
Hi guys,

there is a patch to remove the navigator from the scrollbar:

 https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/6045/

Could you guys form a good consensus on if that should be done in the first
place or not, as that patch is block on that right now. Needs to be clarified
best before 4.2 branchoff.

Best,

Bjoern


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

Hi!

Le 15/11/2013 09:30, Samuel Mehrbrodt a écrit :

>
> The scrollbar is something which height/width depends on the OS and
> visual theme used. So there are issues where the scrollbar is too small
> and the widgets are displayed wrongly [1].
>
> Of course there is a use case for the Navigation buttons being quickly
> accessible, but I don't think the right place for them is below the
> scrollbar. There is for example already a toolbar which has the
> navigation buttons (forward and back, see View->Toolbars->Navigation)
> and we could easily add the "Navigation" button there also. Or we could
> think about adding it to the statusbar (I would prefer the first).
>

Could the new search bar be enhanced so that it integrates the
Navigation buttons rather then creating yet another toolbar? This would
make everyone happy:
-- no more misplaced Navigation buttons ,
-- the functionality would be more visible, even if the Navigator is not
on screen,
-- Ctrl+F would call the bunch of search tools (I love shortcuts ;)

What do you think?
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

Hm I'm not sure that's a good idea. People might be confused when there
are doubled Up/Down buttons.

Am 15.11.2013 18:11, schrieb Jean-Francois Nifenecker:

> Hi!
>
> Le 15/11/2013 09:30, Samuel Mehrbrodt a écrit :
>> The scrollbar is something which height/width depends on the OS and
>> visual theme used. So there are issues where the scrollbar is too small
>> and the widgets are displayed wrongly [1].
>>
>> Of course there is a use case for the Navigation buttons being quickly
>> accessible, but I don't think the right place for them is below the
>> scrollbar. There is for example already a toolbar which has the
>> navigation buttons (forward and back, see View->Toolbars->Navigation)
>> and we could easily add the "Navigation" button there also. Or we could
>> think about adding it to the statusbar (I would prefer the first).
>>
> Could the new search bar be enhanced so that it integrates the
> Navigation buttons rather then creating yet another toolbar? This would
> make everyone happy:
> -- no more misplaced Navigation buttons ,
> -- the functionality would be more visible, even if the Navigator is not
> on screen,
> -- Ctrl+F would call the bunch of search tools (I love shortcuts ;)
>
> What do you think?

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

Le 15/11/2013 18:45, Samuel Mehrbrodt a écrit :
> Hm I'm not sure that's a good idea. People might be confused when there
> are doubled Up/Down buttons.
>

If I refer to the img Mirek posted a link to in a previous msg
(http://ubuntuone.com/2EEIFZCyIEHJwCIU9qQjH8), this doesn't seem very
confusing to me. YMMV.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by Samuel Mehrbrodt-2

Hi Samuel,

> The scrollbar is something which height/width depends on the OS and visual theme used. So there are issues where the scrollbar is too small and the widgets are displayed wrongly [1].

   OK, this is a good reason to remove it, but for the time being we can check
   the width of the scrollbar, if it's too small hide the navigation buttons... or
   we can make writer scrollbars at a fixed width and size regardless the OS..

   What do you think?



   Ahmad

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تحذير: هذه الرسالة وما تحويه من مرفقات (إن وجدت) تمثل وثيقة سرية قد تحتوي على معلومات محمية بموجب القانون. إذا لم تكن الشخص المعني بهذه الرسالة فيجب عليك تنبيه المُرسل بخطأ وصولها إليك، وحذف الرسالة ومرفقاتها (إن وجدت)، ولا يجوز لك نسخ أو توزيع هذه الرسالة أو مرفقاتها (إن وجدت) أو أي جزء منها، أو البوح بمحتوياتها للغير أو استعمالها لأي غرض. علماً بأن فحوى هذه الرسالة ومرفقاتها (ان وجدت) تعبر عن رأي المُرسل وليس بالضرورة رأي مدينة الملك عبدالعزيز للعلوم والتقنية بالمملكة العربية السعودية، ولا تتحمل المدينة أي مسئولية عن الأضرار الناتجة عن ما قد يحتويه هذا البريد.


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (15-11-13 09:30)

> I created that patch, so let me also share my opinion.
>
> The scrollbar is something which height/width depends on the OS and
> visual theme used. So there are issues where the scrollbar is too small
> and the widgets are displayed wrongly [1].

Yes, but since the function of the buttons is in the same line as
clicking on the scroll bar ... IMO it's a natural place at that position.

The case where the scroll bar becomes to small because of the button
must be very rare?



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by ahmad
Hi all,

Le 16/11/2013 08:40, Ahmad Hussein Al-Harthi a écrit :
>
> Hi Samuel,
>
>> The scrollbar is something which height/width depends on the OS and
> visual theme used. So there are issues where the scrollbar is too small
> and the widgets are displayed wrongly [1].
>
>    OK, this is a good reason to remove it,

No, it is not a good reason in general, it would be an almost good
reason only in the cases where the scrollbar is too small. Sorry to say
that, but it is a lazy solution to a real problem.

That said this discussion was useless: the code for the navigation
button has been removed in the master (for LO 4.3) although we have read
more advices against the removal of this function.

Now it will be even more difficult to do not give the impression that LO
is a poor clone of MSO. And if LO is a MSO's clone, why should
MS-Windows users use LO ?

JBF

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

A simple reason to not have any widget over scrollbar area: when they
change size they cause a lot of usability issues. And it’s not only
this navigation set of buttons: remember what happens with the Sheet
tabs in Calc? We get a lot of bug reports regarding that they are too
small, hard to click, unreadable, etc. It's the same with the
navigation buttons. IT’S SIMPLY NOT the place to have any UI elements.

Also, if we plan to support Mac OS X’s overlay scrollbars (and Ubuntu
ones as well), there should not be any special UI depending on
scrollbar size (that’s stupid).

(Now, don’t divert the discussion saying that we should accept any UI
from MS, and MS users will be alienated, and all that stuff. This is
an UX list, remember? And MS removed the buttons as well, remember?)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

Hello

The discussion started with : "Could you guys form a good consensus..."

Adolfo Jayme Barrientos-3 wrote
don’t divert the discussion
...
This is an UX list, remember?
Well...  I think we have not yet found ...

It seems to me that good technical arguments have been given for
these buttons no longer appear in the scroll bar.

It also seems to me that experienced users have clearly expressed
they use these buttons.

It seems that so far no concrete and definitive proposal was found to
move the buttons to another location.

It seems to me unfortunate that the functionality is already removed
from the master and I wonder about the usefulness of this discussion...

My proposal is:

- Remove the current Navigation toolbar by moving the feature
("Back" and "Forward" in history) in the "other" Navigation toolbar
(the one that can be detached from the Navigator). Add their navigation
mode (in history) to those existing (table, text frame, graphics...).

- Transform the Navigation toolbar (that can be detached from the navigator)
in a "standalone" toolbar that can be anchored and displayed via the
View Toolbars menu.

- That done, we can remove buttons from the scroll bar...

Regards
Pierre-Yves
Jean-Baptiste Faure Jean-Baptiste Faure
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

In reply to this post by Adolfo Jayme Barrientos-3
Le 21/11/2013 15:06, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos a écrit :
> A simple reason to not have any widget over scrollbar area: when they
> change size they cause a lot of usability issues. And it’s not only
> this navigation set of buttons: remember what happens with the Sheet
> tabs in Calc? We get a lot of bug reports regarding that they are too
> small, hard to click, unreadable, etc. It's the same with the
> navigation buttons. IT’S SIMPLY NOT the place to have any UI elements.

Why ? That means only that the software has to control itself the size
of the scrollbars. If the window manager takes bad usability choices, is
it necessary to applaud ?

[...]
> (Now, don’t divert the discussion saying that we should accept any UI
> from MS

I know that my English is too bad, but I said exactly the contrary.

>, and MS users will be alienated, and all that stuff. This is
> an UX list, remember? And MS removed the buttons as well, remember?)

Indeed and because it is an UX list you should explain when do you will
restore the navigation function which is suppressed by removing this
button.
Even if this button is not the right implementation of the function, the
function is useful and should be kept. That means a function being
accessible in the default UI, and not only in the Navigator or in a
toolbar which is not open by default.
When do you will do that ?

JBF

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