[Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

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Markus Mohrhard Markus Mohrhard
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hey guys,

while looking at bug fdo#45085 I had a look at the code and think I
need to do a major refactoring. So this is the perfect opportunity to
tell me your wishes for UI improvements in the Conditional Format
Dialog.

Do you have any ideas or suggestions to improve the dialog?

Regards,
Markus
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hello Markus

Are you sure of the number ?

This Issue (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45085) seems to me not related with conditionnal formatting ?

Regards
PYS
Markus Mohrhard Markus Mohrhard
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hey,

2012/2/8 pierre-yves samyn <[hidden email]>:
> Hello Markus
>
> Are you sure of the number ?

You're right. This was another bug report for me.

Correct is https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43937

Thanks,
Markus
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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hi Markus, Pierre-Yves,

I believe I won't have so much time to work on this in the next ~two
weeks with you. Anyway, I hope I can give some helpful input now.
So, from what it looks like:
* It's a no-brainer that the dialogue is missing a "Remove
(condition)" button; currently you can only disable stuff – which made
sense when there was a fixed number of three conditions (that was true
for the last time in 3.3, I believe), but doesn't any more.
* Another no-brainer is that the "Add" button is in the wrong spot, it
ought put to be below the scrolling conditions field, so it can be
easily associated with adding a condition.
* Finally, the dialogue should obviously be (vertically) resizable –
not having been at FOSDEM, how far along is Caolan's stab in the
direction of resizable dialogues?


Also, I've uploaded some other software's implementations of similar
concepts to the wiki:
* https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Rhythmbox-autoplaylist.png
* https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Thunderbird-msgfilter.png

Astron.
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hi

In the same token, there are good ideas in the "conditional formatting" dialog of the extension "report builder" (see screenshot).
- Up and Down keys to change the order of conditions
- The plus and minus keys to add - delete conditions (delete reset the condition)

Screenshot


Note: of course characters attributes would be unnecessary here (should keep the style preview as now).

PYS
pierre-yves samyn pierre-yves samyn
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hi

I forgot to mention that it would be interesting to keep the check box for each condition, to add the management of the state "Enabled Yes/No"  of the condition

Regards
Pierre-Yves
Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

In reply to this post by Stefan Knorr (Astron)
Hi all,

Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote (08-02-12 13:26)

> * It's a no-brainer that the dialogue is missing a "Remove
> (condition)" button; currently you can only disable stuff – which made
> sense when there was a fixed number of three conditions (that was true
> for the last time in 3.3, I believe), but doesn't any more.

OK, but that's another button. And we have already quite some..
So I would suggest care here ...

> * Another no-brainer is that the "Add" button is in the wrong spot, it
> ought put to be below the scrolling conditions field, so it can be
> easily associated with adding a condition.

+1

> * Finally, the dialogue should obviously be (vertically) resizable –
> not having been at FOSDEM, how far along is Caolan's stab in the
> direction of resizable dialogues?

And if not, somehow indicate if more conditions are set ...
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

In reply to this post by pierre-yves samyn
pierre-yves samyn wrote (08-02-12 15:09)

> In the same token, there are good ideas in the "conditional
> formatting" dialog of the extension "report builder" (see
> screenshot). - Up and Down keys to change the order of conditions -

Indeed handy !

> The plus and minus keys to add - delete conditions (delete reset the
> condition)
>
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n3726029/Capture-1.png

Are those supposed to be available for each condition?

> Note: of course characters attributes would be unnecessary here
> (should keep the style preview as now).

++1

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Cor Nouws wrote
> The plus and minus keys to add - delete conditions (delete reset the
> condition)

Are those supposed to be available for each condition?

something like that (I included the enable property if we can add it)



Pierre-Yves
Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hi Pierre-Yves, Cor, Markus,

I've created on an own (initial) mock-up, let me know what you think:

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Mockup-conditionalformatting.png

I'll try to do a quick walk-through:
* the == buttons are the "Shrink window" buttons ... I was too lazy to
insert the appropriate image there

* I moved the Add button below the scrolling field to make sure it is
always visible (at the same position, too) without being needlessly
duplicated

* I've moved the "New Style..." button into the first position in the
combobox – that should help somewhat with visual clutter without
removing functionality

* I've retained the option enable/disable conditions – ultimately, I
think, if that should stay or not should depend on whether we can save
disabled conditions in ODS files or not (otherwise we're making users
believe that their data (unused conditions) is safe while actually it
is deleted

* I've tried to limit the height of the dialogue to something that
doesn't block the entire screen (or becomes even higher than the
screen – Rhythmbox for instance does that)

* I've added an info bar if no conditions are set.

* I have not incorporated Pierre-Yves's idea of the reordering
buttons, mainly because (while a nice function)
** it is a bit clumsy (drag'n'drop is always better)
** it creates some more visual clutter

* The appearing scrollbar would reduce the space available for the
conditions UI a bit – that is somewhat unsightly, but I believe it's
even more unsightly to always show a scrollbar.

(Sorry for the not-too-logical layout of the mock-ups. But the numbers
in the description should lead you.)

Regards,
Astron.
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote (15-02-12 16:43)

> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Mockup-conditionalformatting.png
>[...]
> (Sorry for the not-too-logical layout of the mock-ups. But the numbers
> in the description should lead you.)

Yeah, shame on you ;-)
Kidding: thanks for the clear mockups. Looks pretty too me.

I like the solution with the selection of a new style :-)

For me it's OK if by default there are two or three conditions visible,
but not too strong on that.
thanks a lot!

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hi,

> Kidding: thanks for the clear mockups. Looks pretty too me.

Hopefully, it's usable, too...


> I like the solution with the selection of a new style :-)

Thanks.


> For me it's OK if by default there are two or three conditions visible, but
> not too strong on that.

Hm, I thought it should present itself as lean as possible initially
(with the potential to grow, of course). Also, having just one enabled
condition in the initial view v/ having one activated and two disabled
conditions [1]: the number of clicks necessary to get to three enabled
conditions stays the same. Although, of course, all the
window-resizing does have some disruptive force to it, so maybe we
should think about that again.


Astron.

[1]  One enabled/two disabled is the only thing that would make sense
to me, as otherwise we'd be saving two empty conditions if the user
didn't disable them before closing the window.
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hi

I also like new  style via the combo.

I agree with the remark about  including  enable / disable  option (I pointed out that it's based on a nonexistent property to date).  But I'm not sure that the checkbox (left of "Condition x") would be unambiguous as it is currently used to remove a condition. Explicit word would have my preference (see my mockup).

I would also like to clarify some points.

1. Step 1: you indicate "Comes up with one condition set up Already"
In this mockup, 45 Is the value of the current cell ?

If yes, I do not feel that this is useful: the user should probably delete this value more often than he would keep.
This control could also be a combo allowing the user to either type a value directly into the control or choose from a list of  the values ​​available cf. Data> Filter> Standard filter> Value

2. It would be a plus if the preview area used the value or the result of the formula instead of the word Example.

3. About reordering conditions, doing it *also* by drag and drop would be a plus. Your screens do not suggest to the user that this is possible.

The buttons I propose are explicit and also used in other dialogs. They would add a very useful feature for our case: multiple conditions in which the order of interpretation can be very important.

4. In the same token I do not like a single Add button with a Remove button by condition: this suggests that the add is done in last place without allowing to insert a condition.

If in your mind it would be added after the selected condition (?), the proposed interface does not suggest this... I would add that the duplication of the Remove button clutters the dialogue.

My preference is so much to + and - buttons for each condition:
- They lighten the dialog
- They suggest and explicitly allow the insert

Regards
Pierre-Yves
Markus Mohrhard Markus Mohrhard
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hey guys,

thanks a lot for your feedback.

Personally I like Astron's mock-up. It is quite simple, does not
contain too much information or buttons and IMHO it follows the same
design ideas we used for the new range name dialogs.

The vertical resizable should be no problem in this context because it
can be solved in the code and does not need anything from Caolan's
work. We implement already something in this direction in the range
name dialogs with the more button which resizes the dialog vertically.

Are there any objections against implementing something in this direction?

Regards,
Markus
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

In reply to this post by Stefan Knorr (Astron)
Hi Gérard,

please note: this list has the feature that by default only the person
being replied to gets the mail. If you want to continue the discussion
on the list, you have to CC all.

Thus I'm just including everything you wrote here:
2012/2/17 Gérard FARGEOT <[hidden email]>:

>> [1] One enabled/two disabled is the only thing that would make sense
>> to me, as otherwise we'd be saving two empty conditions if the user
>> didn't disable them before closing the window.
>> _______________________________________________
>
> From a user point of view :
> 1 enabled / 2 disabled is a good option but it could be also 1/1. Why 3 ?
>
> Surely not only one. In this case, user could think he can use only one with
> a quick look.
>
> I'm happy to say "good bye" at the STYLE() function. :)
>
> Gérard


As an answer: I really don't see that particular problem with having
only a single condition in the window initially. It's not like the Add
button is hidden. The 1/2 thing was mostly because it used to be this
way before, so I don't have a particularly strong opinion on 1/1
versus 1/2.

Astron.
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

In reply to this post by pierre-yves samyn
Hi Pierre-Yves,

One thing: please use reply-to-all on this list, as not everyone might
be subscribed.

Another thing of note: please read the mail that should follow this
one before jumping to conclusions.

> I also like new  style via the combo.

Thanks.


> I agree with the remark about  including  enable / disable  option (I
> pointed out that it's based on a nonexistent property to date).  But I'm not
> sure that the checkbox (left of "Condition x") would be unambiguous as it is
> currently used to remove a condition. Explicit word would have my preference
> (see my mockup).

AFAICS, currently it is used as a way to disable a condition, with the
only problem being that disabled conditions are thrown away when
closing the window. However, as long as the window is open, you can
still re-enable it. And I don't see the ambiguity, really.
Nevertheless, I guess, unless Markus wants to implement a new
(apparently also non-spec [1]) behaviour, I'll remove that from the
mockups for now.


> 1. Step 1: you indicate "Comes up with one condition set up Already"
> In this mockup, 45 Is the value of the current cell ?

Dumb of me. I'll correct that, thanks.


> 2. It would be a plus if the preview area used the value or the result of
> the formula instead of the word Example.

That was what I intended to show with the "$ 12,34" value.


> 3. About reordering conditions, doing it *also* by drag and drop would be a
> plus. Your screens do not suggest to the user that this is possible.

You're right, the mockups don't include it. If they did, I would have
added grippies at left side. What I meant was: if we include
reordering, drag and drop is much more user-friendly than the buttons
you included. They are a crutch and awful to use because they act so
indirectly on the the conditions (my opinion). Only for a11y reasons
would it be necessary to include something similar if reordering were
indeed to be implemented.


> 4. In the same token I do not like a single Add button with a Remove button
> by condition: this suggests that the add is done in last place without
> allowing to insert a condition.

In my mockups they were.


> My preference is so much to + and - buttons for each condition:
> - They lighten the dialog

I don't see how that would lighten the dialogue. It would mean a lot
more buttons.

> - They suggest and explicitly allow the insert

Right.

Best regards,

Astron.

[1] http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1417846_253892949
– doesn't seem to provision for disabled conditions (I don't know if I
read that right, though)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

In reply to this post by Markus Mohrhard
Hi Markus,

before you go on implementing something like my proposal, there's a
quite frank question from my side: How much time do you plan on
spending on conditional formatting?

Read on only if you intend to work on this for a bit longer.

So... I've finally taken a look at how Excel's UI for conditional
formatting looks/works, see [1] for a quite good overview of the UI
available (I fully expect beatings for looking this up only now). So
where do MS stand:
#1 lots of ribbon menu items (to make sure most people don't see their
MSO 2000-style dialogues)
#2 a conditional formatting manager that only shows the conditions
(and can be used to add/remove/reorder) – very importantly, this also
shows the range you have applied conditional formatting rules on
#3 rules editor windows for every single rule (that seems needlessly
complex to me)


I've kinda come to the conclusion that while my proposal improves the
situation it is really somewhat over-simplistic. Here are the problems
I see that aren't solved by it:
* A conditional formatting rule always applies to a specific range,
but currently there's no way to determine what range is covered by a
rule without lots of trial and error. (This is a huge problem.)
* Pierre-Yves is right: sequence does matter, so ordering is actually
a really good idea, even if I don't like those up/down buttons very
much.

So, tentative plan:
* add a dialogue similar to the Manage Names dialogue, but for
conditionally formatted ranges – maybe even integrate conditionally
formatted ranges into Manage Names?
* figure out a way to merge most of the functionality of the rules
editor windows and the conditional formatting manager of Excel without
this becoming a UI disaster – maybe a list with elements
collapsing/being fully shown depending on whether they're selected
like in the extension manager of LibreOffice would be a good idea.
* integrate drag and drop ordering as well as an accessible form of
ordering (so, probably up/down buttons)
* at some later stage add a toolbar icon with functionality similar to
Excel's ribbon menus – but that's mostly fluff, I think (maybe could
be made an Easy Hack, dunno)


> The vertical resizable should be no problem in this context because it
> can be solved in the code and does not need anything from Caolan's
> work. We implement already something in this direction in the range
> name dialogs with the more button which resizes the dialog vertically.

Sure, but additionally it would at least be nice if users could decide
how large they'd like it.


Sorry for being so late with all this. Best regards,

Astron.

[1] http://www.homeandlearn.co.uk/excel2007/excel2007s6p2.html
[2] As much as people like numbers, names should be easier to remember
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hello Stefan,

2012/2/19 Stefan Knorr (Astron) <[hidden email]>:
> Hi Markus,
>
> before you go on implementing something like my proposal, there's a
> quite frank question from my side: How much time do you plan on
> spending on conditional formatting?

I can spend some time on it. As long as your proposal is reasonable I
will try to implement as much as possible from it and try to get it
into 3-6.

>
> Read on only if you intend to work on this for a bit longer.
>
> So... I've finally taken a look at how Excel's UI for conditional
> formatting looks/works, see [1] for a quite good overview of the UI
> available (I fully expect beatings for looking this up only now). So
> where do MS stand:
> #1 lots of ribbon menu items (to make sure most people don't see their
> MSO 2000-style dialogues)
> #2 a conditional formatting manager that only shows the conditions
> (and can be used to add/remove/reorder) – very importantly, this also
> shows the range you have applied conditional formatting rules on
> #3 rules editor windows for every single rule (that seems needlessly
> complex to me)
>
>
> I've kinda come to the conclusion that while my proposal improves the
> situation it is really somewhat over-simplistic. Here are the problems
> I see that aren't solved by it:
> * A conditional formatting rule always applies to a specific range,
> but currently there's no way to determine what range is covered by a
> rule without lots of trial and error. (This is a huge problem.)
> * Pierre-Yves is right: sequence does matter, so ordering is actually
> a really good idea, even if I don't like those up/down buttons very
> much.
>
> So, tentative plan:
> * add a dialogue similar to the Manage Names dialogue, but for
> conditionally formatted ranges – maybe even integrate conditionally
> formatted ranges into Manage Names?

No, please don't integrate it into Manage Names. These are totally
different features and should remain independant. The only thing that
should be moved into Manage Names is the Database Range Handling.

> * figure out a way to merge most of the functionality of the rules
> editor windows and the conditional formatting manager of Excel without
> this becoming a UI disaster – maybe a list with elements
> collapsing/being fully shown depending on whether they're selected
> like in the extension manager of LibreOffice would be a good idea.
> * integrate drag and drop ordering as well as an accessible form of
> ordering (so, probably up/down buttons)
> * at some later stage add a toolbar icon with functionality similar to
> Excel's ribbon menus – but that's mostly fluff, I think (maybe could
> be made an Easy Hack, dunno)


Ok, as long as you can show me a mock-up I'm willing to implement
something like that. I just don't like Excel's Dialog where you add a
new conditional format. Similar to our workflow with the range name
dialogs I suggest that we create a mack-up and then we'll see what can
be implemented and what is impossible/out of reach for this
implementation.

>
>
>> The vertical resizable should be no problem in this context because it
>> can be solved in the code and does not need anything from Caolan's
>> work. We implement already something in this direction in the range
>> name dialogs with the more button which resizes the dialog vertically.
>
> Sure, but additionally it would at least be nice if users could decide
> how large they'd like it.

Sure. But this is then a different issue. IMHO these are orthogonal.
The resizing of the dialog after adding a new entry should/has to be
done in code and the automatic resizing has to be done by the layout
manager.
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hi again, people.

Sorry for the extremely long wait. I am not sure if my mockups live up
to any expectations that might have built up, but here we go...
I've just updated:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Mockup-conditionalformatting.png
Take a look. In the following, I will use (n) to refer to the part of
the mockup I am referring to.

So, what's changed?

* I've integrated drag/drop sortability as well as sorting via buttons
in a hopefully not too intrusive way.
* It can't be seen in the mock-up, but it would be good, if condition
sorting via drag/drop had similarly nice animations as the slide
sorter in Impress.

* The Add button has wandered into the position where Condition n+1
sits, so it is now integrated in the conditions list box. This is to
make it more obvious that one can add more conditions when there's
only one set by default. That will indeed make it harder to add
conditions once the initial space in the conditions list box is filled
up. We might be able to mitigate that problem by moving the whole
Condition n+1 field with the Add button permanently to the end of the
list so it doesn't scroll when the rest of the list scrolls. (I hope I
described that clear enough, although I fear I did not. Please ask.)
* It's still not possible to add conditions in an arbitrary place in
the list. I consider that a design decision.

* When a condition is not selected, there's only a summary, as can be
seen for Condition 1 in (2). This is similar to how Excel 2010
displays conditions in its condition manager.
* One important difference to Excel is that this design does not allow
sort conditions that apply to different ranges. This is important
mostly because ranges can overlap, so conditions from different ranges
can conflict. I think, the sane choice is to try to apply conditions
for the largest range first and and those for the smallest range last
– although that doesn't remedy the whole problem. However, the UI of a
document-wide conditional formatting editing dialogue would probably
have been worse than Excel's, so I tried to avoid that.

* There's an expander labelled Area, to edit the range of a set of
conditions after they were created. It is not expanded by default, the
expanded view can be seen in (2), though.
* Note that the range is also part of the title bar of condition
window (at least in my mock-ups), it should be updated accordingly if
the information is edited in the window.

* There's a completely new manager window. This is supposed to help
with two things:
   1 find the conditions/ranges that were set without lots of try and error
   2 delete all conditions for a range
* You may debate how useful the First Condition is in recognising a
whole set of conditions. Other ideas very welcome.


This much explanation for now. Feedback welcome.

Astron.
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hello

Thank you for this great job

I comment only some details (no comment = agree)

In the following (x) refers to the same number in your mockup.

*(0) Menu Format> Insert Format Tools>
Conditionnal Formatting... / Manage Cond ...

Unless it is planned to integrate other tools in this menu
I would prefer Format> Conditionnal Formatting > Define ... / Manage ...
like Insert> Names> Define ... / Manage ...

*(1)(2) later conditions defeat earlier conditions

My English is quite limited and I am afraid to be a misunderstanding but I
prefer to check.

I understand that message as: the latter condition verified prevails.

It's actually the opposite: The first condition checked prevails.
This message (The first condition checked prevails) seems more explicit
(considering my poor english).

*(2) Summary

It seems possible to display a summary of the following condition
if exists (condition 3 in the mockup, n+1 actually)

*(2) Condition 1 Summary

Display the range seems unnecessary (already present in the title).
The condition is most important here.

*(2) Expander Labelled Area: Range / Scope

Can we change with the keyboard and mouse (selection in the sheet)?
Can we enter a range name (Insert> Names and Data> Define Range)?

*(Detail of 1)

If the user enter a value Does not enter a value...

For the record, remember:
1. The two areas with BETWEEN and NOT BETWEEN
2. Conditions of type "Formula"

*(4) Conditionnal Formatting Manager

Instead of using a DataGrid control (which displays the first condition
in a column) I would consider it better to use a TreeView control that
would display the tree Sheets> Ranges> Conditions.

It would be useful to enrich the Navigator with an entry
"Formatting Conditionnal" which would list the ranges:
1. double click: selection
2. right click context menu: Edit / Remove

Now some answers to your remarks:

* It's still not possible to add conditions in an arbitrary place in
the list. I consider that a design decision.

If (2) is the state of dialog when define Condition n, click the Add button
should add after the condition n. I do not understand how the proposed design
requires adding at the end of the list.

* One important difference to Excel is that this design does not allow
sort conditions that apply to different ranges.

I do not have Excel for years. Do you mean that our dialog should allow
to define conditions for different ranges at the same time?

I would personally hostile to this possibility for confusion it would create
when several conditions are defined (with "cascade") for the same range.

Sample problem: If you change the range how to reflect the change to all the conditions
already set?

From Monday I will be "offline" for two weeks and I could not answer any questions.
Sorry ...

Regards
Pierre-Yves

Une messagerie gratuite, garantie à vie et des services en plus, ça vous tente ?
Je crée ma boîte mail www.laposte.net
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