Minutes from the Tue Sep 17 infra call

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Guilhem Moulin Guilhem Moulin
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Minutes from the Tue Sep 17 infra call

Participants
============

 1. guilhem
 2. cloph
 3. Brett
 4. Ilmari
 5. Dennis

Agenda
======

 * PiTR
   + AI guilhem (from last call…): merge the branch and deploy on vm221
   + guilhem+Brett+* to schedule a videochat some time in ≥late sept

 * chat system
   + [matrix] https://matrix.documentfoundation.org
   + talked with Philippe about https://www.nayego.net/ , based on XMPP
     - no mobile app (can use your own, without the shiny extensions)
     - no SSO
   + XMPP is also provided by JPBerlin for members; a quote from Sophie's
     mails to the members ml:
     - As a member of the Foundation, you can have a libreoffice.org account
       and register to free communication services:
       . an e-mail address with a fully-featured IMAP account with shared
         folder options, alternatively an e-mail forwarder
       . a Jabber/XMPP address for instant messaging
       . a SIP/VoIP account for voice conferencing
     - no SSO
   + Brett: one of the benefits of [matrix] vs. the various XMPP extensions is
     their nice mobile application (which is why people use Telegram)
     - https://conversations.im/ is a very good XMPP client, but maybe too
       confusing to set up all these different brands of clients
     - too many moving parts on a social level with XMPP
     - fragmentation due to the wide diversity of clients (and various XEP
       support), with [matrix] it's Riot on mobile and desktop and browser.
       E.g. Handling of messages when users are offline can vary drastically.
   + Kiwi bouncer service installation process now documented at
     https://github.com/kiwiirc/kiwibnc
     - Ilmari will attempt to set up a Kiwi IRC system on his own server and
       document the process
     - As we use freenode, SSO is not applicable (we would need to run our own
       IRCd - Inspircd supports ldap)
       . g: not necessarily, our sso-aware services don't use ldap (which
         alone doesn't give sso), they simply authenticate against our idp,
         and in principle I don't see why the authentication service couldn't
         do the same.  exposing sso user credentials to a leaf service is not
         a good idea anyway (no other frontend uses ldap for that reason).
   + guilhem: would just like to agree on something that's not telegram.
     Brett: would just need to be as usable as telegram then

 * gerrit
   + more and more trouble with third-party OpenID providers
     . can now authenticate with TDF own OAuth2 IdP, cf.
       https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/msg15471.html
   + multiple identity providers increases likelihood account duplication,
     which is a pain both for users and for the infra team
     . eventually TDF's Single Sign-On system will be the only enable identity
       provider (required for 2.15 upgrade)
   + g: individually poked all ~100 duplicate account owners (based on
     preferred email address)
     . will merge as explained after Oct 1st (or earlier if account owner
       replied)
   + upgrade path (need to force authentication through TDF's SSO system
     first)
     1. migrate to NoteDB first (to keep history in All-Users.git)
     2. remove references to missing accounts (SSH keys etc)
     3. remove external IDs other than mailto:, username:, and tdf-oauth:
     4. resolve remaining email collisions
     → tested on the stage instance at
       https://gerrit-stage.documentfoundation.org/
   + stats:
     last active   #accounts in SSO
     -----------  -----------------
         ≤7 days   57/  79 (72.15%)
        ≤30 days   80/ 134 (59.70%)
        ≤90 days  100/ 203 (49.26%)
       ≤180 days  115/ 280 (41.07%)
       ≤730 days  167/ 706 (23.65%)
         anytime  207/2102 ( 9.85%)
   + who/when to poke?
     - cloph to remind people at the ESC
     - guilhem to individually poke folks who were last active in the past 90 days
   + convenience URLs https://git.libreoffice.org/$REPO/commit/$COMMIT_ID (and
     also tree, log, diff, blame)
     - can be used automatic messages (IRC, BZ mail)
     - maybe also in gerrit links
     - cloph: have that already: https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/2200
       . hub.libreoffice.org/git-repo/hash, but that's for the history not the diff
       . git.libreoffice.org/core/+/hash or git.libreoffice.org/core/+log/master -
         a little easier/shorter than plugin/gitlies URL, but maybe not so
         portable
       . even already have https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/749405af4
         and others (log, history, blame) — (guess I misunderstood and that
         item was announcement of those redirects/convenience URLs :-))
     - dennis: tdf.io? → not really the usecase here

 * Possible spare hardware temporary offer
   + testbed to try out different setups for the lower layers of the virt
     stack (i.e. for hypervisor testing)
   + wishlist: 2/3 machines with a 10G link in between, RDMA nice but not
     required, fast drives or combination HDD/SSD

 * Mac buildbot (tb69)
   + Brett kindly offered to host it
   + rdm#2962 give VPN creds
   + cloph: it's enough to upgrade the box, no need to nuke and reinstall
   + AI guilhem: ask admin creds from Norbert and share with Brett
   + AI Brett: upgrade the OS to the most recent baseline
   + no salt states for non-linux boxes; will manually upgrade and lode will
     the do the rest for the tb setup

 * Attic [Dennis]
   + Some issues with messed-up unicode links, weird usernames (broken
     authorship refint)
   + Dennis to fix, then Guilhem to nuke the test DB and reimport (and later
     deploy to prod)

 * Next call: Tue Oct 15 16:30:00 UTC 2019

--
Guilhem.

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Italo Vignoli-6 Italo Vignoli-6
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Re: Minutes from the Tue Sep 17 infra call

On 9/18/19 8:03 PM, Guilhem Moulin wrote:

>    + XMPP is also provided by JPBerlin for members; a quote from Sophie's
>      mails to the members ml:
>        . a Jabber/XMPP address for instant messaging
>        . a SIP/VoIP account for voice conferencing

Sorry, but they never worked for normal users like me. You have to
configure them to work with clients as the standard configuration does
not work, but whatever you do the client is unable to connect. Please do
consider people with limited tech capabilities.

>    + guilhem: would just like to agree on something that's not telegram.
>      Brett: would just need to be as usable as telegram then

AFAIK, Mattermost just works on desktop and mobile, even for people like
me with limited tech capabilities. Riot is way more complex, and IRC for
me is out of discussion (exactly as Telegram for Guilhem) for technical
reasons.

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Ilmari Lauhakangas Ilmari Lauhakangas
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Re: Minutes from the Tue Sep 17 infra call

Italo Vignoli kirjoitti 18.9.2019 klo 22.56:
> IRC for me is out of discussion (exactly as Telegram for Guilhem)
> for technical reasons.

The user experience problems of IRC are entirely solvable. Point'n'click
interfaces to hide all the command line stuff just need to be built. It
is unfortunate and sad that it has taken this long for the ecosystem to
get there. Yet, I bet we all know someone with a pet 20-year-old bug in
LibreOffice that makes them want to punch the software.

Ilmari

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Italo Vignoli-6 Italo Vignoli-6
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Re: Minutes from the Tue Sep 17 infra call

On 9/18/19 10:25 PM, Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote:

> The user experience problems of IRC are entirely solvable. Point'n'click
> interfaces to hide all the command line stuff just need to be built.

The user interface is just one of the issues, and not the biggest one.
IRC is totally unnatural for people with a non technical background, no
matter the user interface. We communicate in a different way, and we are
looking for tools flexible enough to adapt to our mindset. IRC is simply
too far from it, and we will use IRC only if forced to do so (as I have
done so far). I can adapt to Riot, but not to IRC.

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Ilmari Lauhakangas Ilmari Lauhakangas
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Re: Minutes from the Tue Sep 17 infra call

Italo Vignoli kirjoitti 19.9.2019 klo 1.03:

> On 9/18/19 10:25 PM, Ilmari Lauhakangas wrote:
>
>> The user experience problems of IRC are entirely solvable. Point'n'click
>> interfaces to hide all the command line stuff just need to be built.
>
> The user interface is just one of the issues, and not the biggest one.
> IRC is totally unnatural for people with a non technical background, no
> matter the user interface. We communicate in a different way, and we are
> looking for tools flexible enough to adapt to our mindset. IRC is simply
> too far from it, and we will use IRC only if forced to do so (as I have
> done so far). I can adapt to Riot, but not to IRC.

If we get for IRC
- message history for all participants
- message replies
- point'n'click interface for everything, including channel management
- form-based registration
- embedding media (already done, but mentioned as it is not available in
all clients)

what are the unnatural aspects that remain?

Out of all the things I mentioned, point'n'click channel management is
the only one that is not yet being implemented.

Ilmari

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: Minutes from the Tue Sep 17 infra call

In reply to this post by Guilhem Moulin
Hi,

Guilhem Moulin wrote:
>     + guilhem: would just like to agree on something that's not telegram.
>       Brett: would just need to be as usable as telegram then

I agree, that's exactly the thing. That's something many solutions badly
fail at and which makes the adoption rate of proprietary messaging tools
much higher. The casual user does not want to configure server, login
and other things.

The primary reason for looking for a messaging solution is internal use,
so people are capable to add their SSO account. The blocker for me so
far was that the mobile apps were not working reliably (Nextcloud) or I
could not use SSO at all (Matrix/Riot).

If we go for an alternative, I want it to be on TDF premises, so IRC
might not be the best way to go.

What we could do is to bridge a messaging tool (mobile-capable,
notifications, SSO) to IRC if need be.

That being said - thanks everyone for all the hard work you do, I see
lots of progress in infra, happy!

Florian

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Jean-Baptiste Faure-3 Jean-Baptiste Faure-3
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Re: Minutes from the Tue Sep 17 infra call

In reply to this post by Italo Vignoli-6
Le 18/09/2019 à 21:56, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
> [...]
> AFAIK, Mattermost just works on desktop and mobile, even for people like
> me with limited tech capabilities.

+1.
I use the Framasoft instance of Mattermost for private family
discussions since 2 years, and it just works.

Best regards.
JBF

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Brett Cornwall-2 Brett Cornwall-2
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Re: Minutes from the Tue Sep 17 infra call

In reply to this post by Italo Vignoli-6
On 2019-09-18 21:56, Italo Vignoli wrote:

>On 9/18/19 8:03 PM, Guilhem Moulin wrote:
>
>>    + XMPP is also provided by JPBerlin for members; a quote from Sophie's
>>      mails to the members ml:
>>        . a Jabber/XMPP address for instant messaging
>>        . a SIP/VoIP account for voice conferencing
>
>Sorry, but they never worked for normal users like me. You have to
>configure them to work with clients as the standard configuration does
>not work, but whatever you do the client is unable to connect. Please do
>consider people with limited tech capabilities.

I agree: XMPP and IRC are not well-designed from a user perspective. IRC
requires an enormous amount of hackery to bring desired features such as
media, multi-line, or offline messaging support. My vote is not to even
consider going down that rabbit hole: We need users to *want* to use the
ecosystem.

XMPP by itself is also featureless with regards to modern expectations
such as message synchronization between devices. Server/client support
for these features varies wildly. This is where Matrix shines: All of
these modern features are built-in to the spec.

Conversations [1] is a spectacularly designed and very usable XMPP
client for Android. Dino [2] is pretty good for the desktop, but
it's still got some kinks and commits aren't terribly frequent. iOS has
no good XMPP client.

>>    + guilhem: would just like to agree on something that's not telegram.
>>      Brett: would just need to be as usable as telegram then
>
>AFAIK, Mattermost just works on desktop and mobile, even for people like
>me with limited tech capabilities. Riot is way more complex, and IRC for
>me is out of discussion (exactly as Telegram for Guilhem) for technical
>reasons.
>

Last time I tried Mattermost (admittedly back in 2015) it worked well
enough on desktop, but mobile was not good. While the Mattermost Android
application seems to be doing alright (4 stars average)[3], the iOS
version looks to be a travesty (2.7 stars) [4]

Riot gets a 4.2 for Android [5] and 4.0 for iOS [6]. There also exists a
simplified Android client called Pattle [7] that has a familiar
interface for Telegram users.

Matrix does suffer from the same branding fragmentation that might scare
away some users ("Why am I installing something called Riot? I thought I
was using Matrix").

Matrix has support for LDAP, so users could just log in with their TDF
account. The unfortunate part is that they'd have to manually type in
the server into the custom field as it defaults to matrix.org.

Mozilla is trialling a replacement for IRC as well [8]. That might be
worth keeping an eye on.

[1] https://conversations.im/
[2] https://dino.im/
[3] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mattermost.rn
[4] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/mattermost/id1257222717
[5] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=im.vector.app
[6] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/riot-im/id1083446067
[7] https://git.pattle.im/pattle/app
[8] http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/09/06/forward-motion/

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