Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2014-10-15

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Jan Holesovsky-4 Jan Holesovsky-4
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Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2014-10-15

* Present: Heiko, Hillar, Jay, Kendy, Samuel, Steve
 
* Completed Action Items:
 
    + 'More Options' for insert table, 'More Fields' for insert field
      and 'More Styles' for styles drop down
 
* Pending Action Items:
 
    + Samuel: Create an easy hack - describe what tables should be
      striped, and how to do that in the code
    + Kendy: Find somebody to transfer articles from redmine wiki to TDF
 
* UI changes integrated the last week (Samuel):
 
    + [last week] Changed the Insert Field button to dropdown-only:
      https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84550

        + Do we want a split button?
            + originally opened the dialog
            + then changed that the default action inserted the page
              number
                + comes from the Insert toolbar update - where he was
                  creating group buttons (Jay)
                + probably the situation is here a bit different - the
                  functionality more distributed (Samuel)
                + stats: insert page number 50%, date 15%, More... 15%,
                  page count 10%, time 5%
            + now similar to the table - changed to just drop down only
                + like that it is similar to the table (Kendy)
            + problem with the icon
                + not descriptive (Jay)
                + not an issue to have the Page icon, if that's the most
                  used functionality anyway, and then have it first in
                  the list (Kendy)

AI          + Conclusion: Update the icon, and keep the dropdown (Jay)

    + [last week] Styles dropdown

        + Previews the background color too now
        + Changes font color when it's too close to the background color
        + Flat menu button - just the triangle is shown, button on
          mouse-over
        + should styles also show text alignment, as it would be useful
          when the drop down is added to the sidebar? (Jay)
            + tricky question :-)
            + it is a small dropdown - so wouldn't be much visible (Samuel)
            + punt after it's in the sidebar? (Jay)
            + sounds it could be usable (Heiko)

            + Conclusion: Will not block a patch for that if somebody
              implements this - but not a priority for the moment

    + [last week] Styles+Formatting floating dialog removed, will now
      always open in the Sidebar (as the Gallery)
        + what happens when when the sidebar is not visible? (Kendy)
            + it will open the sidebar (Samuel)
            + there's a small bug if you hide the sidebar a special way,
              then it will not show up (Samuel)
                + but bug filed (Jay)

    + [this week] hiding of paragraph level background color button in
      formatting toolbar (Jay)

        + Jay hid it in http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=affe79b5a920a2aa0bc284e918c96aa0379c5efb
          and Kendy enabled it in http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=bb29c5723a6053476b6f398c8550b2a839aa07fc
        + reasoning for its hiding
            + most users do not set paragraph level background color, as
              it colors more than the space taken up by characters
            + users will be confused between character background color
              (aka highlight) and paragraph background color (aka
              background color)
            + other word processors that dont have paragraph color in
              toolbar/sidebar - iwork pages, abiword, wps/kingsoft
              writer, calligra words, wordperfect, ms word 2003, google
              docs
            + most S/W don't have the func to set the paragraph color
              that anyway (Jay)
            + confusing - 3 buttons; what each of them does? (Jay)
                + it is wrongly labeled - it's a paragraph color (Jay)
            + the highlighting is confusing too - it is not what Word
              has as the 'Highlight' feature (Kendy)
            + concern about hiding functionality - if it is used, we'll
              get fire ;-) (Kendy)
            + it aligns better with the 1st row of buttons when hidden (Jay)
            + looks better
                + http://i.imgur.com/keUX5SK.png vs. http://i.imgur.com/8IMHRzp.png

AI          + Conclusion: Kendy will try to see how hard it is to turn
              the 3 spacing buttons to 1 dropdown, keep the background
              color for now, and measure.
                + there is a drop-down already in the sidebar (Samuel)
                + good, will try to re-use that (Kendy)

AI  + Heiko: File a bug about better description of tooltip (sidebar - spacing).
        + "Increase Spacing" should be "Increase Paragraph Spacing",
          same for decrease

* Removal of cut, copy, paste buttons from writer's standard toolbar (Jay)

    + https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=84909
    + No way before we measure this ;-) (Kendy)
        + in MSO, Paste is the biggest + most prominent button in Word,
          I bet they have a reason for that (yes it is a large icon to
          show emphasis, as paste is the number one used function in any
          word processor)
              + Yet again, the need for a combination of big+small
                toolbars arises (there was a GSoC project
                (https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Development%2FGSoC%2FIdeas&diff=89030&oldid=88966 ),
                why was it removed? (Adolfo)
        + please note that the https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Tracking_results
          are for Impress, not Writer. (it is for all modules Kendy :D)
    + iWork Pages and all Mac OS applications don't have cut, copy, and
      paste buttons in toolbars
    + People that agree with this proposal: Mirek, Daniel, Samuel,
      Heiko, Tor, Astron, iplaw67, mjayfrancis
    + People that oppose: Jean-Baptiste Faure, Adolfo Jayme, Cor Nouws,
      Matthias Freund
      https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=77261
      https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/boards/1/topics/3?r=60#message-60

    + Heiko can run a survey - old vs. new toolbar
        + problem with the interaction (Jay)
        + easily doable (Samuel)
        + question can be "what do you use", but also "what is
          acceptable to you" (Heiko)
            + or "do you agree with removal of this or that" (Heiko)
        + Heiko + Jay will propose questions to ask in the survey
        + pasting as unformatted text is very helpful (Samuel)
            + one of the options is to remove the cut and copy, but
              leave paste (Samuel)
                + I like this proposal! (Kendy)

AI  + Conclusion: Heiko + Jay will come up with a set of questions for
      the survey, and we'll review it at the next meeting
 
* Collecting the user information (Kendy)
 
    + prototype: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=35da89fa1428f5286304fc707252242554d49ea6
    + data collection
        + see what / how Mozilla is doing it
        + hopefully we could re-use the code of the server part?
            + http://blog.mozilla.org/metrics/2011/08/25/do-90-of-people-not-use-ctrlf/
            + https://testpilot.mozillalabs.com/
    + no real progress since the last time, Kendy busy
 


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K-J LibreOffice K-J LibreOffice
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Re: Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2014-10-15

Am 16.10.2014 um 11:37 schrieb Jan Holesovsky:
>      + Kendy: Find somebody to transfer articles from redmine wiki to TDF

I started to work on it.
But I think we should leave some content on redmine to describe what
happen in redmine.


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Jan Holesovsky-4 Jan Holesovsky-4
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Re: Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2014-10-15

Hi K-J,

K-J LibreOffice píše v Čt 16. 10. 2014 v 14:46 +0200:

> >      + Kendy: Find somebody to transfer articles from redmine wiki to TDF
>
> I started to work on it.
> But I think we should leave some content on redmine to describe what
> happen in redmine.

Sounds great - thanks so much!  Yes; some small description / pointer to
the appropriate TDF wiki pages would be good, indeed.

Thank you,
Kendy


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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2014-10-15

In reply to this post by K-J LibreOffice
Perhaps we might want to reevaluate our use of Redmine altogether?

Forums are nice because they allow attachments, but it seems that no firm
decision has been reached with regards to letting go of the mailing list,
and it's clearly still being used (as evidenced by this thread, which is on
the ML only). A lot of community members had reservations about using
Redmine Forums -- perhaps there's a better way to deal with the attachment
problem, or perhaps it's not really a problem.

Issues aren't being used properly (some community uproar there, too) and,
with the wiki being cancelled, the idea of having a central place where we
do all our work is out of the question.

Unless TDF wants to start backing up the wiki in Redmine and unless we
start using Issues as a complement to Bugzilla rather than as an
alternative, it might be best to leave Redmine completely.

2014-10-16 14:46 GMT+02:00 K-J LibreOffice <[hidden email]>:

> Am 16.10.2014 um 11:37 schrieb Jan Holesovsky:
>
>>      + Kendy: Find somebody to transfer articles from redmine wiki to TDF
>>
>
> I started to work on it.
> But I think we should leave some content on redmine to describe what
> happen in redmine.
>
>
> --
> Grüße
> k-j
>
> Member of TheDocumentFoundation
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/
> http://de.libreoffice.org
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/
>
>
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> unsubscribe/
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>

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Re: Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2014-10-15

Am 18.10.2014 um 00:00 schrieb Mirek M.:
> Perhaps we might want to reevaluate our use of Redmine altogether?

That was our purpose by testing it.

> Forums are nice because they allow attachments, but it seems that no firm
> decision has been reached with regards to letting go of the mailing list,
> and it's clearly still being used (as evidenced by this thread, which is on
> the ML only). A lot of community members had reservations about using
> Redmine Forums -- perhaps there's a better way to deal with the attachment
> problem, or perhaps it's not really a problem.

I don't think that we should use any Forums. The attachments could put
in the tickets we create.

> Issues aren't being used properly (some community uproar there, too) and,
> with the wiki being cancelled, the idea of having a central place where we
> do all our work is out of the question.

We won't get any central place.

> Unless TDF wants to start backing up the wiki in Redmine and unless we
> start using Issues as a complement to Bugzilla rather than as an
> alternative, it might be best to leave Redmine completely.

IMHO we should not leave it completely:
Bugzilla is mainly used for UX but not for VI-marketing stuff (badges,
logos, flyers etc.).
We should discuss and announce on ml. We should cancel the Forum and the
Wiki but not the ticketing in Redmine (especially not for VI).
If we leave Redmine the Design proposals for VI will migrate to
marketing place in Redmine or something else.
See also Florian's explanations about Redmine:
https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/698#change-2011
If we use Redmine as it is provided it will work.

You know that I don't think about UX- but only for VI-marketing work.

Let me give an example: To work on the design material for the next
LibO-Con Redmine is a really good place to manage it.
We can ticketing, time stamp it, attach, we have a central place for
information on that case. I don't need a Redmine wiki or a Forum for
that. Discussing will be on ml.

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k-j

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2014-10-15

2014-10-22 17:09 GMT+02:00 K-J LibreOffice <[hidden email]>:

IMHO we should not leave it completely:
> Bugzilla is mainly used for UX but not for VI-marketing stuff (badges,
> logos, flyers etc.).
> We should discuss and announce on ml. We should cancel the Forum and the
> Wiki but not the ticketing in Redmine (especially not for VI).
> If we leave Redmine the Design proposals for VI will migrate to marketing
> place in Redmine or something else.
>

Moving this to Marketing on Redmine sounds good, actually.
The LibreOffice software-related VI stuff (icons, widget theming, etc.)
still belongs in Bugzilla and it's just confusing to have a section on
Redmine specifically for design+marketing stuff.

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