New default fonts

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yphilips yphilips
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New default fonts

Hi All,

During this week's design meeting, the discussion about changing the
default font in Impress to Source Sans Pro (tdf#97577) was discussed
further and i felt that changing the default font in only one app isnt
good when we are trying to bring more and more consistency between apps
and suggested we change the default in all the apps.

In LibO 4.2, we changed from Arial and Times New Roman to Liberation
Sans and Liberation Serif and its worth evaluating the available open
source font families to find better replacements. The replacement should
ideally have a wider unicode coverage and should look better both on
screen and print. I collected the following options that i thought are
possible replacements.

1. Droid Family - used on Android, available in Google Docs, available
in ubuntu 12.04 & debian 6-backports -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droid_fonts

2. Noto Family - droid derivative to fully cover all scripts in unicode,
available in ubuntu 14.04 & debian 7 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noto_fonts

3. Caladea, Carlito - bundled with LibO, metric compatible with MS
Office default fonts, available in ubuntu 14.04 & debian 7-backports

Yousuf

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: New default fonts

Hi,

Yousuf 'Jay' Philips wrote on 13-02-16 13:12:

> During this week's design meeting, the discussion about changing the
> default font in Impress to Source Sans Pro (tdf#97577) was discussed
> further and i felt that changing the default font in only one app isnt
> good when we are trying to bring more and more consistency between apps
> and suggested we change the default in all the apps.

Maybe there are many ways to define 'consistency'.
Is it the same nice look, behavior, font, quality in interoperability,
or .. ? IMO good interoperability and nice look are more important than
the same font. But if all can be served, I have no reason to object :)

Thanks for bringing this discussion here, Jay,

Cor


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Heiko Tietze-2 Heiko Tietze-2
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Re: New default fonts

In reply to this post by yphilips
On Saturday, 13 February 2016 16:12:44 CET Yousuf 'Jay' Philips wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> During this week's design meeting, the discussion about changing the
> default font in Impress to Source Sans Pro (tdf#97577) was discussed
> further and i felt that changing the default font in only one app isnt
> good when we are trying to bring more and more consistency between apps
> and suggested we change the default in all the apps.

If we change the default font then in all apps, yes. And Source Pro is really
nice, without prefering it over the other cadidates.
However I'm in the interoperability camp. Changing font that potentially
affects existing documents and leads to inconsitencies in competing products
is not user friedly. Unless we ask for confirmation to update the font. I have
a dialog in mind that tells the user what's new and asks for confirmation to
updated options (we had the same issue for the menu configuration that couldn't
be overridden when individualized).
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Bastián Díaz-2 Bastián Díaz-2
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Re: New default fonts

El 13-02-2016 16:18, Heiko Tietze escribió:

> On Saturday, 13 February 2016 16:12:44 CET Yousuf 'Jay' Philips wrote:
>
>> Hi All, During this week's design meeting, the discussion about
>> changing the default font in Impress to Source Sans Pro (tdf#97577)
>> was discussed further and i felt that changing the default font in
>> only one app isnt good when we are trying to bring more and more
>> consistency between apps and suggested we change the default in all
>> the apps.
>
> If we change the default font then in all apps, yes. And Source Pro is
> really
> nice, without prefering it over the other cadidates.
> However I'm in the interoperability camp. Changing font that
> potentially
> affects existing documents and leads to inconsitencies in competing
> products
> is not user friedly. Unless we ask for confirmation to update the font.
> I have
> a dialog in mind that tells the user what's new and asks for
> confirmation to
> updated options (we had the same issue for the menu configuration that
> couldn't
> be overridden when individualized).

Heiko's comment makes sense.

Interoperability is an important pillar which should be maintained,
especially for those users who do not make major changes to create/edit
a document. For a more advanced user is provided the ability to change
the font or install new to the system.

Based on my experience as a user I propose the following (always works):

- For libreOffice Writer/Calc --> Google croscore fonts
   Caladea and Carlito they have the same metric as the default font used
in Microsoft Office.

- For libreOffice Impress/Draw --> DejaVu font family
   DejaVu fonts are installed by default on most OS also is a font with
very good display on monitors. Wide range in Unicode support and several
useful styles, for example to create a presentation. If not the case,
Carlito font could do the job.

note: I think it should be consistency between the default font in LO
and the font used in the default templates in LibreOffice.

Cheers

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yphilips yphilips
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Re: New default fonts

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-2
On 02/13/2016 11:18 PM, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> If we change the default font then in all apps, yes. And Source Pro is really
> nice, without prefering it over the other cadidates.

I hadnt included the Source Pro font family as one of the suggestions
because we only bundle the sans version, but not the serif or monospace
versions. According to tdf#79022, Source Serif was rejected because it
doesnt have an italics variant.

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91150

> However I'm in the interoperability camp. Changing font that potentially
> affects existing documents and leads to inconsitencies in competing products
> is not user friedly.

The change would only affect newly created document, so there isnt any
potential to cause problem for existing documents. This wouldnt have
inconsistencies problems with competing products, just like changing to
the Liberation font family didnt.

Yousuf

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Phorious Phorious
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Re: New default fonts

In reply to this post by yphilips
Please, reconsider the use of Carlito as a *default* font. It has serious
design issues which came with the "modification" of the original font,
Lato, from which Carlito takes its symbols.

For example, Carlitos "eight" character is taller than the rest, making
documents look weird:

http://6g6.eu/sih0-carloto-vs-lato-3.png

This is because the symbol it self is taller, and it isn't a hinting
problem. This is a comparison of "O", "zero" and "eight" characters made
with FontForge:

http://6g6.eu/sih0-carloto-vs-lato-2.png

On the other hand, I haven't found any flaw in Caladea's design. However,
Caladea has a smaller symbol base than Cambria. Thus, we would be
*discriminating* Greek and Cyrillic-writer people.

Thus, unless Carlito's design is revised and corrected, and Caladea's
symbol base is completed, IMHO those typefaces shouldn't be the _default_
typefaces in LibreOffice documents.

Kind regards,

Francisco.

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nalimilan nalimilan
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Re: New default fonts

In reply to this post by Bastián Díaz-2
Le samedi 13 février 2016 à 17:50 -0300, Bastián Díaz a écrit :

> El 13-02-2016 16:18, Heiko Tietze escribió:
>
> > On Saturday, 13 February 2016 16:12:44 CET Yousuf 'Jay' Philips wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All, During this week's design meeting, the discussion about 
> > > changing the default font in Impress to Source Sans Pro (tdf#97577) 
> > > was discussed further and i felt that changing the default font in 
> > > only one app isnt good when we are trying to bring more and more 
> > > consistency between apps and suggested we change the default in all 
> > > the apps.
> >
> > If we change the default font then in all apps, yes. And Source Pro is 
> > really
> > nice, without prefering it over the other cadidates.
> > However I'm in the interoperability camp. Changing font that 
> > potentially
> > affects existing documents and leads to inconsitencies in competing 
> > products
> > is not user friedly. Unless we ask for confirmation to update the font. 
> > I have
> > a dialog in mind that tells the user what's new and asks for 
> > confirmation to
> > updated options (we had the same issue for the menu configuration that 
> > couldn't
> > be overridden when individualized).
>
> Heiko's comment makes sense.
>
> Interoperability is an important pillar which should be maintained, 
> especially for those users who do not make major changes to create/edit 
> a document. For a more advanced user is provided the ability to change 
> the font or install new to the system.
>
> Based on my experience as a user I propose the following (always works):
>
> - For libreOffice Writer/Calc --> Google croscore fonts
>    Caladea and Carlito they have the same metric as the default font used 
> in Microsoft Office.
I'd like to mention Linux Libertine [1], which is already shipped with
LO. It has the same metrics as the old Times New Roman, but with (IMHO)
a much nicer look with a great care given to detail. It also contains a
rich set of ligatures, small caps, as well as advanced
Graphite/OpenType features (the Graphite version is packaged
separately). It covers Latin, Greek, Cyrillic and Hebrew (the latter
isn't covered by Carlito).

It's companion Linux Biolinum is also a very high-quality sans serif
font.

My personal experience is that these fonts often get very positive
feedback from people who didn't know them, in particular MS Office
users accustomed to Calibri.


My two cents


1: http://www.linuxlibertine.org/index.php?id=2&L=1


> - For libreOffice Impress/Draw --> DejaVu font family
>    DejaVu fonts are installed by default on most OS also is a font with 
> very good display on monitors. Wide range in Unicode support and several 
> useful styles, for example to create a presentation. If not the case, 
> Carlito font could do the job.
>
> note: I think it should be consistency between the default font in LO 
> and the font used in the default templates in LibreOffice.
>
> Cheers
>

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Michael Stahl-2 Michael Stahl-2
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Re: New default fonts

On 14.02.2016 18:52, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote:

> I'd like to mention Linux Libertine [1], which is already shipped with
> LO. It has the same metrics as the old Times New Roman, but with (IMHO)
> a much nicer look with a great care given to detail. It also contains a
> rich set of ligatures, small caps, as well as advanced
> Graphite/OpenType features (the Graphite version is packaged
> separately). It covers Latin, Greek, Cyrillic and Hebrew (the latter
> isn't covered by Carlito).
>
> It's companion Linux Biolinum is also a very high-quality sans serif
> font.

is there a version of these fonts that does not use Graphite features?

i'm afraid as long as there is no support for rendering Graphite fonts
on Mac OS X, it is not an appropriate default, as it's going to look
different on Mac.



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Phorious Phorious
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Re: New default fonts

In reply to this post by yphilips
Michael Stahl wrote:
> is there a version of these fonts that does not use Graphite features?

Yes, there's an opentype version. You can differentiate them because of the
last character at the name of the type: "Linux Libertine G" and "Linux
Libertine O" are graphite and opentype fonts, respectively.

Regards,

Francisco

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nalimilan nalimilan
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Re: New default fonts

In reply to this post by Michael Stahl-2
Le lundi 15 février 2016 à 12:04 +0100, Michael Stahl a écrit :

> On 14.02.2016 18:52, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote:
> > I'd like to mention Linux Libertine [1], which is already shipped with
> > LO. It has the same metrics as the old Times New Roman, but with (IMHO)
> > a much nicer look with a great care given to detail. It also contains a
> > rich set of ligatures, small caps, as well as advanced
> > Graphite/OpenType features (the Graphite version is packaged
> > separately). It covers Latin, Greek, Cyrillic and Hebrew (the latter
> > isn't covered by Carlito).
> >
> > It's companion Linux Biolinum is also a very high-quality sans serif
> > font.
>
> is there a version of these fonts that does not use Graphite features?
>
> i'm afraid as long as there is no support for rendering Graphite fonts
> on Mac OS X, it is not an appropriate default, as it's going to look
> different on Mac.
Actually, the default version doesn't use Graphite at all. You need to
use a alternate set of files for that.


Regards

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Jan Holesovsky-4 Jan Holesovsky-4
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Re: New default fonts

In reply to this post by Phorious
Hi Francisco,

Francisco Adrián Sánchez píše v Ne 14. 02. 2016 v 14:19 -0300:

> Please, reconsider the use of Carlito as a *default* font. It has serious
> design issues which came with the "modification" of the original font,
> Lato, from which Carlito takes its symbols.
>
> For example, Carlitos "eight" character is taller than the rest, making
> documents look weird:
>
> http://6g6.eu/sih0-carloto-vs-lato-3.png
>
> This is because the symbol it self is taller, and it isn't a hinting
> problem. This is a comparison of "O", "zero" and "eight" characters made
> with FontForge:
>
> http://6g6.eu/sih0-carloto-vs-lato-2.png
>
> On the other hand, I haven't found any flaw in Caladea's design. However,
> Caladea has a smaller symbol base than Cambria. Thus, we would be
> *discriminating* Greek and Cyrillic-writer people.
>
> Thus, unless Carlito's design is revised and corrected, and Caladea's
> symbol base is completed, IMHO those typefaces shouldn't be the _default_
> typefaces in LibreOffice documents.

These are good points; luckily these sound like fixable problems :-)

Can you please collect the problems more precisely - which exact
characters (or character ranges) are missing, what characters have
design problems, etc.

Also if you can double-check the metrics compatibility with the C* fonts
(like if the pair kerning is really the same etc.)  [I believe they
really are, but in case there are some corner cases, or anything.]

Based on that, I'd ask the TDF Board to consider a tender to fix such
Carlito and Caladea issues; I hope it might fit the 2016 UX budget.

Thank you for your help!

All the best,
Kendy


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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: New default fonts

On 02/19/2016 01:21 PM, Jan Holesovsky wrote:

> Hi Francisco,
>
> Francisco Adrián Sánchez píše v Ne 14. 02. 2016 v 14:19 -0300:
>
>> Please, reconsider the use of Carlito as a *default* font. It has serious
>> design issues which came with the "modification" of the original font,
>> Lato, from which Carlito takes its symbols.
>>
>> For example, Carlitos "eight" character is taller than the rest, making
>> documents look weird:
>>
>> http://6g6.eu/sih0-carloto-vs-lato-3.png
>>
>> This is because the symbol it self is taller, and it isn't a hinting
>> problem. This is a comparison of "O", "zero" and "eight" characters made
>> with FontForge:
>>
>> http://6g6.eu/sih0-carloto-vs-lato-2.png
>>
>> On the other hand, I haven't found any flaw in Caladea's design. However,
>> Caladea has a smaller symbol base than Cambria. Thus, we would be
>> *discriminating* Greek and Cyrillic-writer people.
>>
>> Thus, unless Carlito's design is revised and corrected, and Caladea's
>> symbol base is completed, IMHO those typefaces shouldn't be the _default_
>> typefaces in LibreOffice documents.
> These are good points; luckily these sound like fixable problems :-)
>
> Can you please collect the problems more precisely - which exact
> characters (or character ranges) are missing, what characters have
> design problems, etc.
>
> Also if you can double-check the metrics compatibility with the C* fonts
> (like if the pair kerning is really the same etc.)  [I believe they
> really are, but in case there are some corner cases, or anything.]
>
> Based on that, I'd ask the TDF Board to consider a tender to fix such
> Carlito and Caladea issues; I hope it might fit the 2016 UX budget.
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> All the best,
> Kendy

Personally, I think you cannot have any font that has "everything" for
"everyone's" needs.

I really thing we need to have a good/free unicode font that has many of
the characters/glyphs that are available.

Actually, I may have the largest font collection of most people using
LibreOffice [14+ GB worth of TTF and OTF fonts].  Seems to me that most
of the non-specialty fonts seem to be "similar" to each other serif to
serif and sans to sans.  Yes there are minor differences, but unless you
compared them side-by-side, you may not easily tell the difference
between them.

I do wish LO can find a set of the best freely available fonts to bundle
with LO's installations, but that is really easy to say and not easy to
do.  I end up with 250 to 500+ font files, depending on what the system
is being used for, or how long it has been since I last looked as
removing the fonts I have not used for months or years.  IT seems that I
keep adding fonts with specific names - like Carlito, Caladea, Droid,
and many others - that people have indicated was needed or was mentioned
in "conversations" like the one that is on these email lists.  On this
Ubuntu 15.10 [64 bit] laptop I have 490 files in the .font folder
[unknown how many font names there are].  Actually this figure is after
I reduced the number of fonts [names] by a third or so in January.



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toki toki
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Re: New default fonts



On February 19, 2016 5:03:59 PM PST, Tim wrote:

>Personally, I think you cannot have any font that has "everything" for  "everyone's" needs.

Three or four core fonts, and an extension similar to the one that optimizes LibO for Japanese, for then 40 or so writing systems that LibO supports. Let the font junkies and  the grammatologists install all of those extensions.

>I really thing we need to have a good/free unicode font that has many
>of  the characters/glyphs that are available.

Unifont is libre and covers most of the Unicode 7.0 glyphs.
IMNSHO, its biggest flaw is its weight.
Its lack of slant and type options are also flaws.

>LibreOffice [14+ GB worth of TTF and OTF fonts].  

I see two major issues with that many installed fonts:
* Windows takes forever and a day to start;
* Finding the right font is extremely difficult;

I have no idea how many fonts I have. My laptop claims an impossibly high figure.

>I do wish LO can find a set of the best freely available fonts to
>bundle  with LO's installations, but that is really easy to say and not easy to.

+1

In an ideal world, each L10N / i18n team would create an extension tbat installs the best libre fonts, along with other useful tools for the language(s) they target.
EG: Isreal l10n extension would include fonts,  the Nikkud placement extension, along with Hebrew dictionary, and grammar checker.

>is being used for, or how long it has been since I last looked as

For most people, for most purposes, more then three font families is too many.
Within font families, more than 25 fonts is usually excessive.

Translating that into LibO:
* Unifont: font family #1: only one font is offered;
* Gentium: font family # 2: either 3 or 4 fonts are offered;
* Courier: font family #3: only be font is offered: This is a monotype font.

Those 6 fonts work for the majority of use-cases for Latin writing systems.

jonathon
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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: New default fonts

On 02/20/2016 03:47 AM, toki wrote:
>
> On February 19, 2016 5:03:59 PM PST, Tim wrote:
>
>> Personally, I think you cannot have any font that has "everything" for  "everyone's" needs.
> Three or four core fonts, and an extension similar to the one that optimizes LibO for Japanese, for then 40 or so writing systems that LibO supports. Let the font junkies and  the grammatologists install all of those extensions.
With Linux, I have the MS core fonts package installed, plus many more
font names that I have used for a long time:
[not in any real order]
Linux Biolinum, Linux Libertine, Liberation, Arial, Garamond, DejaVu,
Caslon, SourceSansPro, Times New Roman, Vegur, Century Schoolbook

>> I really thing we need to have a good/free unicode font that has many
>> of  the characters/glyphs that are available.
> Unifont is libre and covers most of the Unicode 7.0 glyphs.
> IMNSHO, its biggest flaw is its weight.
> Its lack of slant and type options are also flaws.

I do not remember Unifont [by name] until I looked it up.  I think I
looked into it a number of years ago, or some other font like that.
I do have Arial Unicode installed [I cannot remember how long I have had
that font].

Here is the text from the Unifont web site [reformated for this email].

     The Standard Unifont TTF Download:
              unifont-8.0.01.ttf (12 Mbytes)
     Glyphs above the Unicode Basic Multilingual Plane:
              unifont_upper-8.0.01.ttf (1 Mbyte)
     Unicode Basic Multilingual Plane with CSUR PUA Glyphs:
             unifont_csur-8.0.01.ttf (12 Mbytes)
     Glyphs above the Unicode Basic Multilingual Plane with CSUR PUA Glyphs:
            unifont_upper_csur-8.0.01.ttf (1 Mbyte)

Did you install all four TTF files?
>
>> LibreOffice [14+ GB worth of TTF and OTF fonts].
> I see two major issues with that many installed fonts:
> * Windows takes forever and a day to start;
> * Finding the right font is extremely difficult;
>
> I have no idea how many fonts I have. My laptop claims an impossibly high figure.

I do not have the 14+ GB fonts installed.  My collection is stored in a
folder, on my Ubuntu 14.04LTS desktop 6 TB storage drives, that has most
stored alpha-named folders or in folder named by style [i.e.
handwriting, dingbat, or other descriptions] or by the actual font name.

For me, I do not know how many font names I have since most of them have
several TTF/OTF files for the bold/italic/etc. styles.


>> I do wish LO can find a set of the best freely available fonts to
>> bundle  with LO's installations, but that is really easy to say and not easy to.
> +1
>
> In an ideal world, each L10N / i18n team would create an extension tbat installs the best libre fonts, along with other useful tools for the language(s) they target.
> EG: Isreal l10n extension would include fonts,  the Nikkud placement extension, along with Hebrew dictionary, and grammar checker.
>
>> is being used for, or how long it has been since I last looked as
> For most people, for most purposes, more then three font families is too many.
> Within font families, more than 25 fonts is usually excessive.
>
> Translating that into LibO:
> * Unifont: font family #1: only one font is offered;
> * Gentium: font family # 2: either 3 or 4 fonts are offered;
> * Courier: font family #3: only be font is offered: This is a monotype font.
>
> Those 6 fonts work for the majority of use-cases for Latin writing systems.
>
> jonathon

A lot of my installed fonts on this laptop, are scripts/handwriting and
fonts that are more decorative ones like Cast Iron, Black Chancery,
Gallery, Broken Glass, Fanfold, Headhunter, and a lot of other names
that I use for making signs and posters for a few not-for-profit groups
and organizations.




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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: New default fonts

In reply to this post by krackedpress


On 2016-02-20 14:03, Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

> On 02/19/2016 01:21 PM, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
>> Hi Francisco,
>>
>> Francisco Adrián Sánchez píše v Ne 14. 02. 2016 v 14:19 -0300:
>>
>>> Please, reconsider the use of Carlito as a *default* font. It has
>>> serious
>>> design issues which came with the "modification" of the original font,
>>> Lato, from which Carlito takes its symbols.
>>>
>>> For example, Carlitos "eight" character is taller than the rest, making
>>> documents look weird:
>>>
>>> http://6g6.eu/sih0-carloto-vs-lato-3.png
>>>
>>> This is because the symbol it self is taller, and it isn't a hinting
>>> problem. This is a comparison of "O", "zero" and "eight" characters
>>> made
>>> with FontForge:
>>>
>>> http://6g6.eu/sih0-carloto-vs-lato-2.png
>>>
>>> On the other hand, I haven't found any flaw in Caladea's design.
>>> However,
>>> Caladea has a smaller symbol base than Cambria. Thus, we would be
>>> *discriminating* Greek and Cyrillic-writer people.
>>>
>>> Thus, unless Carlito's design is revised and corrected, and Caladea's
>>> symbol base is completed, IMHO those typefaces shouldn't be the
>>> _default_
>>> typefaces in LibreOffice documents.
>> These are good points; luckily these sound like fixable problems :-)
>>
>> Can you please collect the problems more precisely - which exact
>> characters (or character ranges) are missing, what characters have
>> design problems, etc.
>>
>> Also if you can double-check the metrics compatibility with the C* fonts
>> (like if the pair kerning is really the same etc.)  [I believe they
>> really are, but in case there are some corner cases, or anything.]
>>
>> Based on that, I'd ask the TDF Board to consider a tender to fix such
>> Carlito and Caladea issues; I hope it might fit the 2016 UX budget.
>>
>> Thank you for your help!
>>
>> All the best,
>> Kendy
>
> Personally, I think you cannot have any font that has "everything" for
> "everyone's" needs.
>
> I really thing we need to have a good/free unicode font that has many
> of the characters/glyphs that are available.
>
> Actually, I may have the largest font collection of most people using
> LibreOffice [14+ GB worth of TTF and OTF fonts].  Seems to me that
> most of the non-specialty fonts seem to be "similar" to each other
> serif to serif and sans to sans.  Yes there are minor differences, but
> unless you compared them side-by-side, you may not easily tell the
> difference between them.
>
> I do wish LO can find a set of the best freely available fonts to
> bundle with LO's installations, but that is really easy to say and not
> easy to do.  I end up with 250 to 500+ font files, depending on what
> the system is being used for, or how long it has been since I last
> looked as removing the fonts I have not used for months or years.  IT
> seems that I keep adding fonts with specific names - like Carlito,
> Caladea, Droid, and many others - that people have indicated was
> needed or was mentioned in "conversations" like the one that is on
> these email lists.  On this Ubuntu 15.10 [64 bit] laptop I have 490
> files in the .font folder [unknown how many font names there are].  
> Actually this figure is after I reduced the number of fonts [names] by
> a third or so in January.
For most of my work I use only Arial. I change everything to Arial.
After the first font change (where the prior fonts became unavailable)
the slight spacing changes required me to adjust the format of all my
manuals. I also need consistent spacing when editing and producing PDFs
across Linux, win and OSX and in PDFs distributed and read (in English)
in any country.
To minimise the issues I have had I would recommend that with what ever
new font is adopted, all previous fonts are still packaged with LO, or
at lease provided as an add on package.
Steve



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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: New default fonts

On 02/20/2016 02:11 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:

>
>
> On 2016-02-20 14:03, Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:
>> On 02/19/2016 01:21 PM, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
>>> Hi Francisco,
>>>
>>> Francisco Adrián Sánchez píše v Ne 14. 02. 2016 v 14:19 -0300:
>>>
>>>> Please, reconsider the use of Carlito as a *default* font. It has
>>>> serious
>>>> design issues which came with the "modification" of the original font,
>>>> Lato, from which Carlito takes its symbols.
>>>>
>>>> For example, Carlitos "eight" character is taller than the rest,
>>>> making
>>>> documents look weird:
>>>>
>>>> http://6g6.eu/sih0-carloto-vs-lato-3.png
>>>>
>>>> This is because the symbol it self is taller, and it isn't a hinting
>>>> problem. This is a comparison of "O", "zero" and "eight" characters
>>>> made
>>>> with FontForge:
>>>>
>>>> http://6g6.eu/sih0-carloto-vs-lato-2.png
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, I haven't found any flaw in Caladea's design.
>>>> However,
>>>> Caladea has a smaller symbol base than Cambria. Thus, we would be
>>>> *discriminating* Greek and Cyrillic-writer people.
>>>>
>>>> Thus, unless Carlito's design is revised and corrected, and Caladea's
>>>> symbol base is completed, IMHO those typefaces shouldn't be the
>>>> _default_
>>>> typefaces in LibreOffice documents.
>>> These are good points; luckily these sound like fixable problems :-)
>>>
>>> Can you please collect the problems more precisely - which exact
>>> characters (or character ranges) are missing, what characters have
>>> design problems, etc.
>>>
>>> Also if you can double-check the metrics compatibility with the C*
>>> fonts
>>> (like if the pair kerning is really the same etc.)  [I believe they
>>> really are, but in case there are some corner cases, or anything.]
>>>
>>> Based on that, I'd ask the TDF Board to consider a tender to fix such
>>> Carlito and Caladea issues; I hope it might fit the 2016 UX budget.
>>>
>>> Thank you for your help!
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Kendy
>>
>> Personally, I think you cannot have any font that has "everything"
>> for "everyone's" needs.
>>
>> I really thing we need to have a good/free unicode font that has many
>> of the characters/glyphs that are available.
>>
>> Actually, I may have the largest font collection of most people using
>> LibreOffice [14+ GB worth of TTF and OTF fonts].  Seems to me that
>> most of the non-specialty fonts seem to be "similar" to each other
>> serif to serif and sans to sans.  Yes there are minor differences,
>> but unless you compared them side-by-side, you may not easily tell
>> the difference between them.
>>
>> I do wish LO can find a set of the best freely available fonts to
>> bundle with LO's installations, but that is really easy to say and
>> not easy to do.  I end up with 250 to 500+ font files, depending on
>> what the system is being used for, or how long it has been since I
>> last looked as removing the fonts I have not used for months or
>> years.  IT seems that I keep adding fonts with specific names - like
>> Carlito, Caladea, Droid, and many others - that people have indicated
>> was needed or was mentioned in "conversations" like the one that is
>> on these email lists. On this Ubuntu 15.10 [64 bit] laptop I have 490
>> files in the .font folder [unknown how many font names there are].  
>> Actually this figure is after I reduced the number of fonts [names]
>> by a third or so in January.
> For most of my work I use only Arial. I change everything to Arial.
> After the first font change (where the prior fonts became unavailable)
> the slight spacing changes required me to adjust the format of all my
> manuals. I also need consistent spacing when editing and producing
> PDFs across Linux, win and OSX and in PDFs distributed and read (in
> English) in any country.
> To minimise the issues I have had I would recommend that with what
> ever new font is adopted, all previous fonts are still packaged with
> LO, or at lease provided as an add on package.
> Steve
>
>
>

Some people would not like what I am going to say, but here goes. . .

I do not know about OSX, but for Linux you have the option to install
the MS core Fonts - "ms-core-font-installer" or something like that -
from the Linux repository, or at least with Ubuntu.

The thing is, if you have to deal with MS users - Win 7 thru 10 - they
should have the same core fonts as the package that I installed on my
Ubuntu laptops/desktops.  Although I really do not like to use Win10,
for the most part, making sure your documents [pdf, doc, etc.] only use
those MS core fonts, then the MS-only users should have the same fonts
installed and can view/edit your documents.

For those who use LibreOffice [not MS Office] having a set of core fonts
for Windows, Linux [deb or rpm], or OSX, then having the same fonts
installed by LO on those systems would be a great idea.  The trouble
still is that it seems most people have their favorite free font[s] that
they want to be part of LO's install.  Choosing the best ones for most
users is the tricky part.  I am glad I am the the one who has to make
that decision.

Tim L.
Elmira NY, USA.






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toki toki
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Re: New default fonts

On 20/02/2016 20:29, Tim wrote:

> Here is the text from the Unifont web site [reformated for this email]
.

I only had unifont 7.x.ttf installed, where "x" is the digits I don't
remember. (I've since deleted it, and installed all four.)

I've installed the 8.x fonts today. I'll play with them later this week.

Same basic issue: only one weight, and one typeface, though.

> I do not have the 14+ GB fonts installed.

I did that on a laptop running both Linux and Win7. It took me a couple
of weeks to figure out why windows performance was so pathetic,
especially in comparison to Linux.

> For me, I do not know how many font names I have since most of them ha
ve
> several TTF/OTF files for the bold/italic/etc. styles.

You don't use a font organizer?
OTOH, none of the font organizers for Linux I've come across, will walk
specific directories in which one stores uninstalled fonts.

> that I use for making signs and posters for a few not-for-profit
groups and organizations.

Specific use-case exception.


> I do not know about OSX, but for Linux you have the option to install
> the MS core Fonts - "ms-core-font-installer" or something like that -
> from the Linux repository, or at least with Ubuntu.

If you are talking about the package from
https://sourceforge.net/projects/corefonts/ then:
* Fonts distributed with Win10 are missing;
* It includes fonts that are not distributed with Win10;

Rephrasing, even if one installs and uses those fonts, there is no
guarantee that a Win10 user will have those fonts.

>The trouble still is that it seems most people have their favorite free
font[s] that they want to be part of LO's install.

That is because most people think that their specific use-case is the
only use-case.

Something to pay attention to, is font requirements according to the
various style manuals.  By way of example, _The APA Publication Manual_
(2010) requires the use of Times New Roman.  The _Southern Seminary
Manual of Style_  mandates the use of SBL BibLit for Greek and Hebrew
text, and Times New Roman for papers written in English.

> Choosing the best ones for most users is the tricky part.

There are three or four conflicting requirements here:
* Include as few fonts as possible, to reduce potential system
performance degradation;
* Cover all of the common use-cases for each language/writing system
combination;
* Cover at least some of the unusual use-cases for each language/writing
system combination;

This is part of the reason why I think it would more suitable for the
L10N to construct a country/language/writing system specific extension
to install fonts, dictionaries, grammar checkers, and the like for their
target language and country.

Since I cited the Japanese extension earlier:
* http://extensions.openoffice.org/en/project/dsfj-takao, which excludes
fonts. Oops, it also requires one to set the default language to Japanes
e;
* http://extensions.openoffice.org/en/project/default-settings-japanese,
which also excludes the requisite fonts;
* http://extensions.openoffice.org/en/project/dsfj-ipaex, which also
excludes the requisite fonts.

I thought one of them also installed the appropriate fonts for writing
Japanese.  :(

I don't know if any of them work with the current version of AOo, EO, or
LibO.

> I am glad I am the the one who has to make that decision.

Can you rephrase that? I'm not sure if the first "the" should be "not",
or if the second "the" should be deleted.

jonathon


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toki toki
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Re: New default fonts

In reply to this post by krackedpress
On 20/02/2016 15:44, Tim wrote:

> Here is the text from the Unifont web site [reformated for this email].

I only had unifont 7.x.ttf installed, where "x" is the digits I don't
remember.  (I've since deleted it, and installed all four.)

I've since installed the 8.x fonts.  I'll play with them later this week.

Same basic issue: only one weight, and one typeface, though.

> I do not have the 14+ GB fonts installed.

I did that on a laptop running both Linux and Win7. It took me a couple
of weeks to figure out why windows performance was so pathetic,
especially in comparison to Linux.

> For me, I do not know how many font names I have since most of them have
> several TTF/OTF files for the bold/italic/etc. styles.

You don't use a font organizer?
OTOH, none of the font organizers for Linux I've come across, will walk
specific directories in which one stores uninstalled fonts.

> that I use for making signs and posters for a few not-for-profit groups and organizations.

Specific use-case exception.


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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: New default fonts

In reply to this post by toki
On 02/20/2016 09:18 PM, toki wrote:
> On 20/02/2016 20:29, Tim wrote:
>
<snip>
> You don't use a font organizer?
> OTOH, none of the font organizers for Linux I've come across, will walk
> specific directories in which one stores uninstalled fonts.

NO, I do not have a package to control which fonts are in my font
folder, either for Ubuntu or Win10.  I tend to go through my .font
folder on this laptop [and other systems] and remove the fonts that are
no longer needed and install the one that will be needed for the next
project[s].

Right now, I have installed the following fonts and looking at if these
fonts would work with my projects that have not had any font requirements.
Alegreya
Gentium
Raleway

If I decide I do not like them, then I will look at others I have hear
about.

<snip>

>> I do not know about OSX, but for Linux you have the option to install
>> the MS core Fonts - "ms-core-font-installer" or something like that -
>> from the Linux repository, or at least with Ubuntu.
> If you are talking about the package from
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/corefonts/ then:
> * Fonts distributed with Win10 are missing;
> * It includes fonts that are not distributed with Win10;
>
> Rephrasing, even if one installs and uses those fonts, there is no
> guarantee that a Win10 user will have those fonts.

I mean "ttf-mscorefonts-installer" that is listed in the Ubuntu repository.

I do not know off hand what fonts are installed by Win10, since all my
systems that I had installed Win10 were Win7 systems that I already had
a large font collection installed.  I did not look at the before and
after font names.

I was looking at a wikipedia list of installed fonts and the listings
for Win10 seems not to be installed on my Win10 partition of this
laptop.  Fonts like Georgia Pro and Arial Nova are not included on my
install.  I have not found a page in MS's web site.

>> The trouble still is that it seems most people have their favorite free
> font[s] that they want to be part of LO's install.
>
> That is because most people think that their specific use-case is the
> only use-case.
>
> Something to pay attention to, is font requirements according to the
> various style manuals.  By way of example, _The APA Publication Manual_
> (2010) requires the use of Times New Roman.  The _Southern Seminary
> Manual of Style_  mandates the use of SBL BibLit for Greek and Hebrew
> text, and Times New Roman for papers written in English.
>
Yes, there are many, many, documents out there that require specific
fonts for their "production".

That is how I got the entire[?] Adobe font collection for a specific
organization and their publications.

I remember what a book editor told me.  If you sent in a manuscript to
the people who decide if the book would get a chance for publication -
before the self publications with e-books - you were required to present
the printed manuscript in a specific format and font type.  It seemed
that each book publisher had their own format and font specifications.

So yes you need to use whatever are required to use.

by-the-way - Harry Potter books published for the US market had a page
that tells the reader what font was use in the books text.

<snip>

>> I am glad I am the the one who has to make that decision.
> Can you rephrase that? I'm not sure if the first "the" should be "not",
> or if the second "the" should be deleted.
>
> jonathon
>
>

Sorry, after 3 strokes, my finger control part of the brain sometimes do
not communicate with the language part of the brain the way it should.

I do not want to be the one who decides which fonts are included with
LibreOffice,  I forget which office or graphics package installed 20+
fonts on your WinXP or Win7 system even if you do not want them.



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