Numbering & Bullets

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Heiko Tietze-2 Heiko Tietze-2
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Numbering & Bullets

Hello all,

we have many tickets regarding numbering & bullets and outlines. The
problem has also a high relevance in the Nantes user interviews, not
knowing the details though.

Good time to think about a different solution:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16-6zkZl5LiICnUILhv1CfIHIdyQFyTJKp7XGST5zq5U

The proposal was made having the new area fill style dialog in mind
where three columns make a) the selection from pre- and user-defined
options simple, b) users get a full overview of all settings, and c)
preview shows how it looks in the end. The old numbering logic is
turned upside down a bit making the list styles predominant as the
preset. And since users may not be aware of the different types, the
numbering, bullets, and outline are merged together.

All comments are welcome- and we should have a design session eventually.

Cheers,
Heiko

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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: Numbering & Bullets

Hi.

On 05/04/17 04:28, Heiko Tietze wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> we have many tickets regarding numbering & bullets and outlines. The
> problem has also a high relevance in the Nantes user interviews, not
> knowing the details though.
>
> Good time to think about a different solution:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/16-6zkZl5LiICnUILhv1CfIHIdyQFyTJKp7XGST5zq5U
>
> The proposal was made having the new area fill style dialog in mind
> where three columns make a) the selection from pre- and user-defined
> options simple, b) users get a full overview of all settings, and c)
> preview shows how it looks in the end. The old numbering logic is
> turned upside down a bit making the list styles predominant as the
> preset. And since users may not be aware of the different types, the
> numbering, bullets, and outline are merged together.
>
> All comments are welcome- and we should have a design session eventually.
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
I am assuming the fill style dialogue is the Area dialogue for a shape.
Is the dialogue in 5.2.5 the new one you mention, there it is very clear
to see the outcome of selections.

Some ramblings on numbering.
I have used numbering (or is it outline numbering) for years in many
manuals, still subject to revision and update, so a consideration for me
would be to maintain consistency and not have to re-number.

Simpler is better as long as you don't lose any functionality, I don't
find the current dialogues difficult to use but may be not so easy to
understand the terminology.

I have never really got to grips with the differences between numbering
and outline numbering (it's probably quite simple) as you apply it to a
document. I have found the simplest way to add another numbered
paragraph/block to my manuals is to copy/paste an existing numbered
entry and edit the text. This keeps the style, adjusts the numbering to
stay in sequence and adds the entry to the TOC. May be this in itself
says something about the ease of use of the current system.

I have always thought that the numbering and bullets buttons in the tool
bar should apply a style (transparent to the user) rather than direct
formatting, thereby allowing future tuning document wide. I always curse
myself when I click those buttons as I inevitably make a change later
and have to go back through the document to get consistency.
Steve

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jan-3 jan-3
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Re: Numbering & Bullets

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-2
> has also a high relevance in the Nantes user interviews, not
> knowing the details though.

Great that this is backed up by research! Is there some transcript or
summary of the interviews/their analysis available?

Jan

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jan-3 jan-3
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Re: Numbering & Bullets

In reply to this post by steveedmonds
Hello,

Intuitively, I would say, my biggest issue with the bullets is that they
are big and ugly*: Most of the standard ones have a very high visual
weight (darker than the usual fonts) so they will stick out a lot and in
most cases don't match the style of the main font you have chosen. Not
to talk about the default image ones (shapes in bright colors).

So if we could swap one or two huge arrows for a simple en-dash (–) or a
font-sized arrow (→) it might already be an improvement typography-wise.


Jan

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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: Numbering & Bullets


On 04/04/2017 07:59 PM, jan wrote:

> Intuitively, I would say, my biggest issue with the bullets is that they are big and ugly*:

Create your own bullets using List Styles.
That way, you get to control everything.

> to talk about the default image ones (shapes in bright colors).

You can use your own images in creating list styles.

jonathon

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Regina Henschel Regina Henschel
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Re: Numbering & Bullets

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-2
Hi Heiko,

I think there are some things, which need more than a new dialog:

There exists a lot of paragraph styles named "Numbering" and "List", but
they have no connection to the corresponding list styles.

It is possible to set a paragraph style to an outline level and connect
it with a list style. But the list level is not bind to the outline
level. (You need this kind of outline heading, if you give an appendix
an ABC outline numbering and your text has a 123 outline numbering.)

The numbered items in a text box do not build a list, so that changing
the level of one item will not adapt the other numbers.
The numbering dialog for a text box seems to be the same, but the
position concept is different.

The presentation object "Outline text" has a strange mix of hierarchical
styles, settings for numbering and bullets, but no "position". You need
to set the position in each item individually. Here too the position
concept is different from Writer.

It is very confusing (in Writer), that with the cursor in a heading,
assigning a list style, or using "Bullets and Numbering" from the
context menu, or clicking on the symbols in the toolbar, do very
different things to the heading.

Kind regards
Regina

Heiko Tietze schrieb:

> Hello all,
>
> we have many tickets regarding numbering & bullets and outlines. The
> problem has also a high relevance in the Nantes user interviews, not
> knowing the details though.
>
> Good time to think about a different solution:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/16-6zkZl5LiICnUILhv1CfIHIdyQFyTJKp7XGST5zq5U
>
> The proposal was made having the new area fill style dialog in mind
> where three columns make a) the selection from pre- and user-defined
> options simple, b) users get a full overview of all settings, and c)
> preview shows how it looks in the end. The old numbering logic is
> turned upside down a bit making the list styles predominant as the
> preset. And since users may not be aware of the different types, the
> numbering, bullets, and outline are merged together.
>
> All comments are welcome- and we should have a design session eventually.
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>


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Heiko Tietze-2 Heiko Tietze-2
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Re: Numbering & Bullets

You answer on the ML without reference to the GDoc proposal where most of the issues should be solved. Hope I didn't mess up with the approval (everyone is allowed to comment).
And you talk about character style and not paragraph, right? Otherwise it's a bug since ODF talks explicitly about the first.

On 04/04/2017 11:02 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:

> Hi Heiko,
>
> I think there are some things, which need more than a new dialog:
>
> There exists a lot of paragraph styles named "Numbering" and "List",
> but they have no connection to the corresponding list styles.
>
> It is possible to set a paragraph style to an outline level and
> connect it with a list style. But the list level is not bind to the
> outline level. (You need this kind of outline heading, if you give an
> appendix an ABC outline numbering and your text has a 123 outline
> numbering.)
>
> The numbered items in a text box do not build a list, so that
> changing the level of one item will not adapt the other numbers. The
> numbering dialog for a text box seems to be the same, but the
> position concept is different.
>
> The presentation object "Outline text" has a strange mix of
> hierarchical styles, settings for numbering and bullets, but no
> "position". You need to set the position in each item individually.
> Here too the position concept is different from Writer.
>
> It is very confusing (in Writer), that with the cursor in a heading,
> assigning a list style, or using "Bullets and Numbering" from the
> context menu, or clicking on the symbols in the toolbar, do very
> different things to the heading.
>
> Kind regards Regina
>
> Heiko Tietze schrieb:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> we have many tickets regarding numbering & bullets and outlines.
>> The problem has also a high relevance in the Nantes user
>> interviews, not knowing the details though.
>>
>> Good time to think about a different solution:
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/16-6zkZl5LiICnUILhv1CfIHIdyQFyTJKp7XGST5zq5U
>>
>>
>>
The proposal was made having the new area fill style dialog in mind

>> where three columns make a) the selection from pre- and
>> user-defined options simple, b) users get a full overview of all
>> settings, and c) preview shows how it looks in the end. The old
>> numbering logic is turned upside down a bit making the list styles
>> predominant as the preset. And since users may not be aware of the
>> different types, the numbering, bullets, and outline are merged
>> together.
>>
>> All comments are welcome- and we should have a design session
>> eventually.
>>
>> Cheers, Heiko
>>
>
>

--
Dr. Heiko Tietze
UX Designer
Tel. +49 (0)179/1268509


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Regina Henschel Regina Henschel
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Re: Numbering & Bullets

In reply to this post by jan-3
Hi Jan,

jan schrieb:
> Hello,
>
> Intuitively, I would say, my biggest issue with the bullets is that they
> are big and ugly*: Most of the standard ones have a very high visual
> weight (darker than the usual fonts) so they will stick out a lot and in
> most cases don't match the style of the main font you have chosen. Not
> to talk about the default image ones (shapes in bright colors).

The presets are the same for Writer and for Draw/Impress and in Impress
such bullets and images might be wanted.

Kind regards
Regina

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Regina Henschel Regina Henschel
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Re: Numbering & Bullets

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-2
Hello Heiko,

Heiko Tietze schrieb:
> You answer on the ML without reference to the GDoc proposal where most of the issues should be solved.

The proposal is about a new dialog. But I want to show those problems,
which cannot be solved by a new dialog.

  Hope I didn't mess up with the approval (everyone is allowed to comment).
> And you talk about character style and not paragraph, right?

No, it is not about character style, but all about lists. It is only
about our current UI.

  Otherwise it's a bug since ODF talks explicitly about the first.

I do not understand your comment.

Kind regards
Regina

>
> On 04/04/2017 11:02 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:
>> Hi Heiko,
>>
>> I think there are some things, which need more than a new dialog:
>>
>> There exists a lot of paragraph styles named "Numbering" and "List",
>> but they have no connection to the corresponding list styles.
>>
>> It is possible to set a paragraph style to an outline level and
>> connect it with a list style. But the list level is not bind to the
>> outline level. (You need this kind of outline heading, if you give an
>> appendix an ABC outline numbering and your text has a 123 outline
>> numbering.)
>>
>> The numbered items in a text box do not build a list, so that
>> changing the level of one item will not adapt the other numbers. The
>> numbering dialog for a text box seems to be the same, but the
>> position concept is different.
>>
>> The presentation object "Outline text" has a strange mix of
>> hierarchical styles, settings for numbering and bullets, but no
>> "position". You need to set the position in each item individually.
>> Here too the position concept is different from Writer.
>>
>> It is very confusing (in Writer), that with the cursor in a heading,
>> assigning a list style, or using "Bullets and Numbering" from the
>> context menu, or clicking on the symbols in the toolbar, do very
>> different things to the heading.
>>
>> Kind regards Regina
>>
>> Heiko Tietze schrieb:
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> we have many tickets regarding numbering & bullets and outlines.
>>> The problem has also a high relevance in the Nantes user
>>> interviews, not knowing the details though.
>>>
>>> Good time to think about a different solution:
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/16-6zkZl5LiICnUILhv1CfIHIdyQFyTJKp7XGST5zq5U
>>>
>>>
>>>
> The proposal was made having the new area fill style dialog in mind
>>> where three columns make a) the selection from pre- and
>>> user-defined options simple, b) users get a full overview of all
>>> settings, and c) preview shows how it looks in the end. The old
>>> numbering logic is turned upside down a bit making the list styles
>>> predominant as the preset. And since users may not be aware of the
>>> different types, the numbering, bullets, and outline are merged
>>> together.
>>>
>>> All comments are welcome- and we should have a design session
>>> eventually.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Heiko
>>>
>>
>>
>


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